Mile High Card Co. auction--Bart Starr jersey

[gwh11]

Mile High Card Co. is offering a number of game used jerseys in its current auction. Among them is a supposed Bart Starr jersey. The offered jersey is inconsistent with what you would expect to see in a legitimate Bart Starr jersey, including inconsistent numeral font, size and tagging. I elaborate here: http://packersgameusedgear.blogspot.com/2010/05/utilizing-highlights-to-uncover.html

Here is the auction listing: http://www.milehighcardco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=15865

I communicated my concerns to the auction house, detailing what is wrong with the jersey. Their reply stated that they were sticking "with the opinion of hobby veteran and noted expert Lou Lampson", but did not refute my assertions.

Is this surprising? Perhaps not.

Is this frustrating? Yes it is.

-Guy

[kings418]

They have at least a couple bad hockey jerseys in the auction too. That Roy Avs jerseyis a joke, plus a couple of the Kings look off, but need to research a little more.

Vince

[34swtns]

The Jim Harbaugh Bears jersey is a retail authentic as well. The nameplate lettering is the dead giveaway.

[esamples83]

The Tkachuk Coyotes jersey is not even a retail authentic, but a retail replica being passed off as game worn.

There are some things i was thinking about going after, but now i dont know....

[sox83cubs84]

That Sand-Knit tag design hadn't yet been introduced in 1968.

Dave M.
Chicago area

[Cubanfan]

The Csonka Dolphins jersey maybe from 72? NOT !!! In 72 #s where sewn on and font was different. Tag in the collar missing? No tag in collar in the 1970's !!!! So much for the research department........



Carlos

Always buying 60's,70's Dolphins

fernsix@aol.com

[aeneas01]

fwiw several of mile high's game used helmets have serious issues as well - that craig morton "gamer is a real doozie...

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[EndzoneSports]

fwiw several of mile high's game used helmets have serious issues as well - that craig morton "gamer is a real doozie...

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Greetings fellow GUUers. Don't get by here very often anymore, but thought I'd chime in...

From our understanding most (if not all) of the game used/worn offerings from the current MHCC auction were sourced via the recent purchase of a single collection. Upon its' reciept, there were some initial communications regarding Endzone Sports Charities providing authentication services for the Broncos-related items, however, due to logistics/time constraints, MHCC did not elect to avail itself of our services.

Upon publishing items for auction in their June offering, we e-mailed Brian D. at MHCC with the following information:


We were sorry that, due to timing, we couldn't have made arrangements to review and opinion your Broncos items for this auction. Just based upon a quick review of the descriptions and photos provided, we would offer commentary as follows:

Lot 1641 - 1994 John Elway Denver Broncos Game-Used Throwback Jersey with 75th Anniversary Patch: This single-game exemplar is one of a number of nearly idendtical jerseys that have made the auction rounds over the years, all purporting to be the one, legitimate, jersey from this game (to which the Pro Football Hall of Fame also lays claim). Due to the number of these out in circulation; from an authentication standpoint, I generally wouldn't touch one of this style with a 10-ft pole. If you'd like, I can send our documention on this style.
Lot 1677 - 1977-1979 Jim Jensen Denver Broncos Game-Used Road Jersey: The Brocos' use of Russell Athletic unis and the mnfg's tagging style would limit this to being from 1977. Wilson was used in 1978-'80, the final three years of Jensen's career w/ the team. Not a chance that this was worn in Super Bowl XII (not XXII)... Broncos wore orange "home" jerseys for this game as a quick photo search would confirm.
Lot 1709 - 2000-2001 Brian Griese Denver Broncos Game-Used Signed Road Jersey: If used, it would have only been in 2000. In 2001, the Broncos switched to Reebok
Lot 1710 - 1998 Shannon Sharpe Denver Broncos Game-Used Signed Road Jersey: Open-style sleeves are inconsistent with jerseys worn by Sharpe who utilized the elasticized "skill"-type cuffing. Sharpe also wore a size 44 jersey almost excusively; size 50 is indicative of a pro-cut "Authentic"/retail jersey
Lot 1712 - 2006 Brandon Marshall Denver Broncos Game-Used Signed Home Jersey: As noted on the Sharpe above, sizing is indicative of a pro-cut "Authentic"/retail jersey. Like Sharpe, Brandon wore a size 44 jersey almost excusively during his Broncos career.
Lot 1718 - 1970s-80s Craig Morton Denver Broncos Game-Used Helmet: Per [deleted] inspection, this helmet was manufactured in 1975, two years before Morton's arrival in Denver. As helmets require reconditioning after 3 years (and there's no mention of a sticker certifying reconditioning), this could have been used no later than 1977. The facemask style, however, does not match that employed by Morton during the '77 season. Further, both the uniform # font and application are incorrect as the Broncos used a unique "Dolphins"-style font with the vinly numbering applied directly to the helmet. It would also be questionable as to whether or not Morton would have utilized a helmet with a web suspension at this point.
Best regards,

[aeneas01]

Lot 1718 - 1970s-80s Craig Morton Denver Broncos Game-Used Helmet: Per [deleted] inspection, this helmet was manufactured in 1975, two years before Morton's arrival in Denver. As helmets require reconditioning after 3 years (and there's no mention of a sticker certifying reconditioning), this could have been used no later than 1977. The facemask style, however, does not match that employed by Morton during the '77 season. Further, both the uniform # font and application are incorrect as the Broncos used a unique "Dolphins"-style font with the vinly numbering applied directly to the helmet. It would also be questionable as to whether or not Morton would have utilized a helmet with a web suspension at this point.fwiw: the passage underlined above is not quite accurate - there are various (legitimate) reasons why nfl helmets were worn well beyond their manufacturing dates. for example some players simply didn't want to give up their helmets and ended up wearing them for most, if not all, of their careers. and of course some players preferred discontinued helmet models (favre, payton, etc.) which equipment managers stocked for their personal use. reconditioning stickers are another can of worms that can often cause false negatives/positives...

anyway, beyond the many other issues with this helmet it's pretty clear that morton was one of the many that embraced modern helmet technology, one of the many that traded in their suspension helmets for cell helmets the moment they became available - and never looked back. in short, morton gave up his suspension helmet five years into his career, long before he arrived in denver.



http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/cm.jpg

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[dcgreg25]

The 1986 Phil Niekro GU Indians jersey is a Wilson jersey. The tribe wore Rawlings from 1978 through 1991. Maybe a salesman's sample?

[tcfor3]

Also in regards to the 1986-87 Niekro jersey, the Cleveland Indians jerseys in 1986 and 1987 had the names sewn onto nameplates and the nameplates were sewn onto the back of the jersey. The name on this jersey is sewn directly onto the jersey.

In addition, the style, font and size of the lettering of NIEKRO is also incorrect.

Finally, I will have to check my 1986 Carmen Castillo jersey, but I don't believe Cleveland used two-toned colored lettering on the jersey nameplates in 1986 and 1987. If they did, the red outline was much thinner than what is shown on this jersey. The filled in bottom on the letter R is definitely wrong.

[dcgreg25]

Also in regards to the 1986-87 Niekro jersey, the Cleveland Indians jerseys in 1986 and 1987 had the names sewn onto nameplates and the nameplates were sewn onto the back of the jersey. The name on this jersey is sewn directly onto the jersey.

In addition, the style, font and size of the lettering of NIEKRO is also incorrect.

Finally, I will have to check my 1986 Carmen Castillo jersey, but I don't believe Cleveland used two-toned colored lettering on the jersey nameplates in 1986 and 1987. If they did, the red outline was much thinner than what is shown on this jersey. The filled in bottom on the letter R is definitely wrong.

Good additional insight. Always good to have another Indians collector chime in on the board.

I stopped at the first massive red flag of Rawlings vs. Wilson. Checking a couple other jerseys it looks like the Indians did use two-toned colored lettering on the nameplates from 1986-1993. The red looks like it was a little thicker in 1986-1988 but still does not match up with the Niekro. The numbers are all wrong and the nameplate is another big issue. Overall, this jersey doesn't really come close.

[hockeytigers]

The Mark Moseley collection also bothers me. I sent them an email on Sunday night and have not received a response back...hmmm...

The kicking shoe that they are claiming is from Moseley has a few issues. First of all, the arch to the shoe looks like a shoe that was tied back. Back when guys kicked straight on, they would tie their toes back and after a while, the shoe would become rounded. This shoe displays that rounding. This is an issue because Moseley never kicked like this.

Also, Moseley used a "high-top" kicking shoe. Notice the difference in pictures. As I went back to look at pictures to try and find this shoe, he had used a high-top type shoe for a long time. Some of the earliest photos shoe a low-top shoe but a different model.

I'm sure there are some gem's in this auction, but there seem to be a lot with questions. As a guy who collects kicking items and would love to have a Mark Moseley jersey and kicking shoe in my collection, I'm going to pass on this one.

This jersey and shoe were offered in an American Memorabilia auction a few years ago and I saved the picture from that auction.

[cjw]

Great insight folks! This is an excellent resource for the buyer. I for one appreciate all the info. Chris

[genius]

This seems to be one of those "bad/good/bad/good" auctions...it seem like there are a lot of nice pieces as well as the questionable ones. Any positive opinions on any of the g/u items presented there? Thanks!

[gwh11]

I just sent Brian Drent another email urging him to reconsider his stand on the Starr jersey. I think it would be worth it if other folks sent him solid info on other pieces that may not be properly represented here.

I also mentioned that there was no way lot#1654, the Lions Altie Taylor jersey, was a "1960s" jersey. Taylor didn't begin his career until 1969, when his jersey would've had no nameplate and would've had the NFL 50th Anniversary patch (and different tagging):
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TaylAl00.htm.

I hope Brian will listen to you knowledgable collectors and take a second look at some of these pieces.

-Guy

[gwh11]

This afternoon I received an email from Brian stating that he pulled the Starr jersey from the auction.
-Guy

[EndzoneSports]

fwiw: the passage underlined above is not quite accurate...

Robert:

Thanks for the clarification. As typical, this is what happens when I stick my nose into matters which I know little about. This is also the reason that I will alway turn to you (a true expert) on all helmet matters.

Best regards,

[nickacs]

Since others are commenting on other jerseys from this auction, can anyone shed any light on these (please!):
- '91 Cal Ripken - Lot 1291
I don't know jack about any Ripken jersey characteristics, so any help would be great! :)
http://www.milehighcardco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=17437&searchby=3&searchvalue=used%20jersey&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=100&category=1

- '02-'03 Michael Jordan - Lot 1443
The front "looks" good (ie. NBA logo right spot/numbers), but not sure about the NOB "arch"... To me the Getty's shows a more subtle arch while the auctioned jersey is the in-famous UDA high arch style.
Anymore info would be great!
http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/1955807.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF878921F7C3FC3F69D929FDF6173AA6763359D6 60B5937F980A4589BF42A08780BC89EC

http://www.milehighcardco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=16628&searchby=3&searchvalue=used%20jersey&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=100&category=1

- '94 Jerry Rice - Lot 1642
Didn't all the '94 NFL jerseys have the 75th anniv patch on the front? Curious why this one doesn't...
http://www.milehighcardco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=16519&searchby=3&searchvalue=used%20jersey&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=100&category=1