Bernie Williams - Hall of Famer?

[ChrisCavalier]

Hello Everyone,

I'm curious as to whether or not people think Bernie Williams will one day be part of baseball's Hall-of-Fame. I think you can build an argument either way and there are clearly a number of variables that may impact the eventual vote.

Personally, among other things, I do have a beautiful signed Williams game-used bat as well as 1,000 of his rookie cards. The cards were actually my first purchase of baseball cards as an adult and I bought them when buying in bulk was in vogue (do people still buy cards in large lots like that?). As a side note, I bought the cards when Bernie was in the minor leagues and I still have the receipt from the purchase.

In addition, not too long after I bought the cards I did attend one Yankee game when I was home from college that summer. Unbeknownst to me, it was the same game that Bernie was called up to make his major league debut. Needless to say, I felt a connected to Bernie from that point on and I become one of his biggest proselytizers.

While others may disagree, I think Bernie's achievements as a Yankee just might get him in the Hall. At 37 this year, he is having a decent season and is helping the injury-riddled Yankees stay in the pennant race. Further, in addition to his World Series rings, batting title and being the all-time post season home run leader, Bernie is #4 on the all-time Yankee hit list behind Gehrig, Ruth and Mantle. In fact, as of today, Bernie would pass Mantle with 122 more hits as a Yankee and Ruth with 225 more. While Derek Jeter will eventually pass Williams (Jeter already has over 2,000 hits as a Yankee), I think if Bernie ends his career as the #3, or #2, all-time Yankee hit leader that might do the trick.

I would love to hear other opinions as to whether or not you think Bernie will make the Hall. I think it's an interesting question and I would love to hear what other forum members have to say.

Thanks in advance,
Chris

[mr.miracle]

I would say no way. I have posted a list of similar players as highlighted by Baseball Reference. Not a single player on any of these lists is currently in the hall or has gotten much of a snif from HOF voters. A lot might depend on who is up for election when Bernie ultimately becomes eligible. However as of now I would say that he is not a HOF'er.

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Dave Parker (http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/parkeda01.shtml) (933) 2 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/gonzalu01.shtml) 3 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/clarkwi02.shtml) 4 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bonilbo01.shtml) 5 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/e/evansdw01.shtml) 6 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/perezto01.shtml) 7 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/smithre06.shtml) 8 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/boyerke01.shtml) 9 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/davisch01.shtml) 10 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/baineha01.shtml) C (http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/scomp.cgi?I=willibe02:Bernie+Williams&st=int&compage=36&age=36)
I would like to hear someone try to defend Williams as a legit HOF candidate because I just don't see it.

Brett

[kellsox]

My vote is- close, but no....He was a very good player throughout his career but never dominant. I think there are better players not in the hall right now(ie Jim Rice) that were in the top 5 or so players while in their prime. Williams will have some intagibles going for him in that he was part of several championship teams and is well respected by fans/media. When I think Bernie Williams I have a hard time seeing him as a Hall of Famer...my 2 cents
kelly

[trsent]

Remember, in the old days winning was important, and Bernie Williams has a 4-2 record when appearing in The World Series. Also, his entire career has been with one team (Robin Yount, George Brett type) helps.

Also, almost a career .300 hitter (.297) helps the pro argument.

Personally, I see a Don Mattingly type of reaction where he just doesn't make the cut, but I don't get a vote so time will tell.

Let's change the subject a little - Why isn't Thurman Munson in The Hall of Fame?

[ChrisCavalier]

Let's change the subject a little - Why isn't Thurman Munson in The Hall of Fame?
Hey Joel,

I wouldn't mind hearing thoughts about Munson as well. However, let's not discourage others from responding about Bernie. That said, maybe people reading the thread can comment on either or both.

Thanks,
Chris

[mr.miracle]

A couple of excellent points there. Without getting too stat happy, check out Don Mattingly very similar to Williams in many catagories, Jim Rice, Andre Dawson, Dale Murphy, Steve Garvey, Alan Trammell all not in the HOF and several of those guys are not even getting a snif. I would say that although Bernie has four rings, I would not classify this as gaining entrance to the HOF alone. You almost have to look at HOF center fielders of the era. I am not sure how many allstar games Bernie was elected to without looking it up but some guy named Griffey Jr. took a ton of votes at CF throughout the 90's so he is obviously a lock. My vote is no. Bernie was a very good player for five to eight years just never a great player among the very best in the league for a long enough time.

Brett

[metsbats]

I think Bernie William will someday have a plaque. A plaque in Monument Park at Yankee Stadium. He definitely ranks up there a one of the all time great Yankees and deserves to recognized as such. I have a problem with using the Yankee measuring stick to decide whether a player is worthy of the Baseball Hall of Fame. Remember the voters are writers from all over the country and a player should be measured by who is in the Hall and not by how he measures up within his team's history.

-David

[staindsox]

The only way Bernie will ever get in is by association, ala Tony Lazzeri. Had he played with any organization other than New York, he would still have been an allstar, but would never have even been considered for the Hall of Fame. He blended well with great players on a winning team and knew his role, but his numbers alone should not enshine him.

[ChrisCavalier]

A couple of excellent points there. Without getting too stat happy, check out Don Mattingly very similar to Williams in many catagories, Jim Rice, Andre Dawson, Dale Murphy, Steve Garvey, Alan Trammell all not in the HOF and several of those guys are not even getting a snif. I would say that although Bernie has four rings, I would not classify this as gaining entrance to the HOF alone.
Hello Brett,

Thanks for what you have added to this thread. I think you bring up some really good points. One question for my clarification, among those that you posted in the "similar batters through age 36", what do you think enabled Tony Perez to become a HOFer? I'm just wondering if the rings (among other things like playing center field for the Yankees) may make a difference for Williams.

BTW, I believe Bernie was a five time all-star despite Griffey holding a lock for the AL throughout the 90s (though arguable, even though the ballots didn't specify outfield positions, I think some voters may consider whether a player is truly a center fielder, right fielder or left fielder when casting their votes).

Thanks in advance,
Chris

[staindsox]

I'm not sure much stock can be placed in Allstar game appearances. Ripken started when he was barely hitting .220...same with Dykstra. Bernie has great numbers, but only the top 1% of players to get to the majors go on to be enshrined in Cooperstown...1%!!! I'm not sure if Bernie is in that top tier. Even if he is in the top 2%, I'm not sure I could ever say he is in the top 1% of centerfielders to ever play the game.

[suave1477]

Chris im sure im gonna get the boos for this but I will say it any way lol lol.

Compare Darryl Strawberry and Bernie Williams in most stats where Strawberry has accomplished more.

Strawberry made it on to the Hall of Fame ballot his first you of eligibility and that was it. Since then they passed the new rule to be on the ballot you have to get a Min. of 20 votes.

Strawberry first year he got 6, oh well!!!:rolleyes:

But compare stats:
Strawberry Bernie Williams
Rookie of the Year
Career BA .259 Career BA .298
Career HR's 335 Career HR's 275
8 x All Star 5 x All Star
2 x Silver Slugger 1 Silver Slugger
4 x Gold Glove
4 World Series Rings 4 World Series Rings
Home Run Leader of 1988 Batting Average Leader 1998
Slugging Pert. Leader 1988 Walk Leader in 1999


AND THERE IS A LOT MORE BUT ITS INTERESTING HOW THEY COMPARE!!!

[trsent]

You are comparing Darryl Strawberry and Bernie Williams?

That is like comparing Dwight Gooden and Orel Hershiser.

It is also like comparing cockroaches and butterflies.

It is also like comparing rotten bananas and fresh bananas.

[byergo]

It's a damn shame that Gooden & Strawberry had so many personal problems. They were so exciting to watch, and both had better talent than most HOF'ers. I'd say that Gooden is his prime may have been the most dominant, overpowering pitcher of them all.

[byergo]

As to Bernie Williams, a real good player, but not even worth discussing his HOF potential (for which there is NONE: zilp, zilch, nada!). 2,218 hits, 275 HR, not even top 50 in ANY career stat.

He is a lot like a Willie Wilson, or Willie McGee. Star players, love 'em but not HOF'ers. The only reason people bring up Bernie is because he played for the Yankees. New York bias sucks!

[mr.miracle]

Chris:

In answer to your question regarding Tony Perez, I think that is a great question. Someone else had referenced riding the Yankee coat tails into the HOF. I am wondering in part if that did not happen to Tony being a prominent member of a loaded team on the Big Red Machine. If you compare Tony's stats to other players of his era which did overlap the 70's and 80's, he is certainly not what you would call a slam dunk HOFer by any stretch. In fact, his stats in many ways look very similar to Jim Rice with a couple of hundred more hits in there but when you think of a prominent American League player from the 70's Rice has to be the man. He was probably one of the most feared sluggers of is day if not the most feared in the American League. My guess is that Tony did get some help being on a prominent World Series winning team that featured several other HOF'ers in Joe Morgan, Johnny Bench, etc.

It is strange how certain players when you mention their names, you just immediately think HOF player and others you don't. Players like Tony Gwynn, Wade Boggs were great hitters but never had much power. Players like Andre Dawson, Jim Rice, Willie Stargell had great power and were good all around hitters not in the same class as Gwynn and Boggs in terms of pure hitters but had better overall power numbers, run producers etc. Dawson, Rice and Stargell don't get in yet Gwynn will and Boggs is in. I know I am oversimplifying things but it is funny how getting 3000 hits punches your ticket automatically despite the absence of other power and run production numbers yet players who are good in all statistical catagories instead of great in one or two don't get in. Of course winning a bunch of batting titles in the case of Gwynn and Boggs didn't hurt either. I guess that is why it is the Hall of Fame not Hall of very good as someone else mentioned. Just my thoughts

Thanks
Brett Herman
brettherman2131@hotmail.com

[ironmanfan]

If there was a Hall of Good, I'd nominate Bernie

[BULBUS]

And DON MATTINGLY ! ! ! !

[GameBats]

I was a Big fan of Thurman Munson, but He couldn't hold a candle to Bernie Williams. If Munson is a consideration Williams is a lock. Just my opinion.

[stkmtimo]

Without his 4 World Series rings, I'd say "Very, very close, but no cigar". As a huge Yankees fan, I really admire Bernie and think he is one of the game's classiest and most underappreciated stars. I truly believe that the 4 World Series rings will be what propel him into the Hall of Fame. While others may argue that similar players should be in (Jim Rice for argument's sake), many lack the World Series championships that can make or break a player's Hall of Fame chances. I'll go out on a limb and say Bernie gets in one day.

Tim

[byergo]

NY Yankees: Best team money can buy. All 2nd tier Yankee stars should make the HOF. Yeah right! Get a grip guys!

[ChrisCavalier]

Without his 4 World Series rings, I'd say "Very, very close, but no cigar". As a huge Yankees fan, I really admire Bernie and think he is one of the game's classiest and most underappreciated stars. I truly believe that the 4 World Series rings will be what propel him into the Hall of Fame. While others may argue that similar players should be in (Jim Rice for argument's sake), many lack the World Series championships that can make or break a player's Hall of Fame chances. I'll go out on a limb and say Bernie gets in one day.

Tim
Rumor has it that Bernie Williams heard about this thread right before yesterday's game ;)

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/recap;_ylt=AtaK3SlmDAVP_jkTWJvTLrwRvLYF?gid=260827 103&prov=ap

-Chris