Beat The Authenticator!!!

[Eric]

Okay everyone, it's time to play Beat The Authenticator.

On May 1st, I got an email from a very reputable dealer- one of the best in the business, saying they had a great Chargers item available.

I am not including their name because they have acted completely professionally here, they were as upset and confused as I was, and I don't want their name to get dragged into this.

It was a Kellen Winslow game used helmet from the 1980s.

I wrote back for photos, price, and provenance. Good news they said, the bought it straight from the collection of Lou Lampson and comes with a letter from Lou.

Let me emphasize this- "IT CAME STRAIGHT FROM THE COLLECTION OF LOU LAMPSON"

Here are the photos

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Find what's wrong with this helmet and Beat The Authenticator!

I started doing my homework and was looking at the details, color of the tag on the front, facemask design, number size on the back etc. Meanwhile, I sent the photos to a fellow collector for his opinion. He pointed out a major, obvious flaw. Not a small detail, a gigantic mistake.

I pointed the flaw out to the dealer, who couldn't believe it. All of a sudden it was obvious. But it wasn't obvious how Lampson missed it.

They were embarrassed and attempted to contact Lou. It took them weeks to get a response from him. When they did, Lou stood by the authenticity of the item.

Lou said the Chargers did wear helmets like this. I am a Chargers fanatic and have never seen an example of this in game play or otherwise. Lou has not provided any proof. Just his word. No photos, no links, no video, nothing. It has been two and a half months, I am tired of the dance, so that is no longer good enough.

For the record, last week, the dealer sent the helmet back to Lou for a refund. And, if I'm wrong here and someone can show me the proof that Lou is right, I will be the first to acknowledge it, but I am tired of hearing "Lou said it's real, so it's real" without any proof. I want to see the proof.

This reminded me of a similar problem I had with Mr. Lampson. In my earlier days of collecting, I bought a Doug Flutie USFL game used New Jersey Generals jersey with a letter from Lou.

It was white and did not have TV numbers on the sleeves. This bothered me, so I contacted people who run USFL fan sites who confirmed what I thought- it was a practice jersey. At the time, I presented all of the information to American Memorabilia, who had sold me the jersey and they passed it to Lou. The response passed back to me was that the Generals used jerseys with and without TV shoulder numbers in games and he had photo record of it. I kept asking AMI for the photos but Lou would not provide it. AMI gave me my money back.

Back to the Winslow helmet, I can tell you there's a major problem here. You don't even have to be a Chargers expert to see it.

Whoever can Beat The Authenticator not only gets the respect of the forum, you get to look like a genius!

Go nuts people!!
Eric

[byergo]

Suspension helmet is incorrect. Should be padded with foam inside.

[suave1477]

I disagree with byergo, BUT I AM NOT SAYING HE IS COMPLETELY WRONG.

I will explain I had a retail helmet I bought from the 80's that had that same kind of suspension inside the helmet.

That is why I disagree, but I can be wrong maybe for 80's PRO helmets they did have the foam inside?????

[Yankwood]

Is this the original facemask?

[Eric]

Those may or may not be issues- but there's a huge one staring you right in the face

[hblakewolf]

Eric-
The lightning bolts are incorrectly placed! The right sticker should be on the left side and the same with the left!

My 2 year old daughter could easily see this!

How can Lampson even try to pass this off? I dare anyone to try to find one photo of any Charger with this type of masking.

Then again, Lampson stands by his Ripken green St. Pat's jersey, too.

Eric-maybe you want to contact Judge Wopner and try to resolve this on a public forum. It may be your only way to get a refund and also find out if there actually is a real Lou Lampson.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[b.heagy]

The helmet is smooth at the top between the bolts and does not have the raised area for striping.

[weimerskirch]

Eric,

Is it as obvious as the size of the helmet?

[otismalibu]

I know nothing about NFL helmets, but seeing I clicked on the thread, I'll take a guess.

I thought you literally meant "beat" the authenticator. Sort of like a public caning.

I bought an older solid black Riddell (sp?) helmet on eBay to make into a Steelers helmet for my son. After buying the decal kit, I had to stick everything in place. There is a ridge on his youth helmet, right down the middle on which I applied the yellow strip.

Should this one have the same raised ridge???

[allstarsplus]

Not his typical facemask which was typically a 2 row instead of a 3 row. Looks like a facemask change....

[Eric]

Howard wins.

The lightning bolts are on backwards.

Eric

[b.heagy]

Congrats Howard - Good Call

[Yankwood]

Not his typical facemask which was typically a 2 row instead of a 3 row. Looks like a facemask change....That's what I thought but I guess I'm an idiot because I don't see anything. What do I know?

[Eric]

Here is the illustration more closely

Lou Lampson's helmet
http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1357&d=1153269239


Actual Chargers item
http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/2368255.jpg?v=1&c=MS_GINS&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193A53F25ED92F0D351CE1DAF6B00BC00D4

[allstarsplus]

Not his typical facemask which was typically a 2 row instead of a 3 row. Looks like a facemask change.... I think later in his career when the helmet design changed he switched to that exact 3 bar

[hblakewolf]

Eric-
And yet another Lampson LOA that you can wipe your a** with!

He provided the same type of worthless LOA for Dan Derluth's green Ripken jersey, as well as countless other items that have been raised here on the Forum. The question we all want to know-what do you or the dealer who you reference plan to do?

When will collectors wake up and realize that this is not the first, and by no means the last huge blunder made by Lampson. Say what you want about MEARS, however, if this helmet had their LOA, you would at least have a phone number and contact. Likewise, they offer a refund on those items found to be "bad".

Good luck, Eric both in trying to get a refund and contacting Lampson.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[weimerskirch]

Team,

Howard nailed it!!! The bolts are backwards or inverted!!!. I just checked Getty and did not see any helmet that looks like the one pictured by Eric. But we know that Lampson will state he has a photo which shows Kellen wearing this helmet.

The problem with Lamson is he was "first to market" or one of the first in the field. In business it is usually difficult to eliminate or significantly reduce those that are first to market. Lampson has been around a long time and auction houses take his word on many pieces...that is the problem.

This forum needs to continue to proactively pursue Lampsons poor LOAs and show the auction houses that his expertise is not as high as Taube, MEARS and others.

Great work Howard and Eric thanks for sharing this information. "Stump the Authenticator" sure is a fun game to play!!!

Mark

[Eric]

Howard

I never bought the helmet from the dealer.
The dealer bought it from Lampson, then after the info chased him down to get their money back.

As for your question "What am I going to do?" After the Flutie incident, my personal attitude is- if it has a Lampson letter, I assume it has no letter at all.

Over the last couple of years, I have made suggestions to the auction houses who use Lampson to make him available to their consumers for direct Q and A, and not in this "I'll pass him a message, and then pass his response back to you" stuff.

In the state of today's hobby, if you are an auction house using an authenticator, you better make him available for questions or your reputation suffers. It is no longer good enough to hear "Lou says it's good, so it's good." How about the proof or at least come direct communication? Those who use Lampson have all ignored that request.

I challenge any of them to step up and make a change.
Eric

[ChrisCavalier]

Howard

I never bought the helmet from the dealer.
The dealer bought it from Lampson, then after the info chased him down to get their money back.
Hello Eric,

Just to make sure I'm clear, are you saying that Lou Lampson refunded the money to the dealer?

Thanks,
Chris

[Eric]

Yes. Mr. Lampson did not provide any photo proof, so the dealer sent the helmet back for a refund. So he was sure about its authentication, yet he refunded the money. Seems very strange to me.
Eric

[Eric]

Howard

I never bought the helmet from the dealer.
The dealer bought it from Lampson, then after the info chased him down to get their money back.

As for your question "What am I going to do?" After the Flutie incident, my personal attitude is- if it has a Lampson letter, I assume it has no letter at all.

Over the last couple of years, I have made suggestions to the auction houses who use Lampson to make him available to their consumers for direct Q and A, and not in this "I'll pass him a message, and then pass his response back to you" stuff.

In the state of today's hobby, if you are an auction house using an authenticator, you better make him available for questions or your reputation suffers. It is no longer good enough to hear "Lou says it's good, so it's good." How about the proof or at least come direct communication? Those who use Lampson have all ignored that request.

I challenge any of them to step up and make a change.
Eric

Since the issues have come up yet again, I wanted to remind those who haven't read about this chargers helmet with backwards bolts which came from lampson's collection.

There's a pattern which I think is worth noting.

Lampson told the person he sold it to "Sometime the chargers used helmets with backward bolts."

I asked the dealer to have Lampson provide any shred of photo proof of that. He never did.

He authenticated a Doug Flutie New Jersey Generals game used jersey with no sleeve numbers. When I questioned it, Lampson told AMI "The Generals sometimes used jerseys in games with no sleeve numbers."

I asked AMI to ask Lampson to provide photo proof of this. He got the request, but never provided photo proof.

Lampson authenticated a Syracuse Billy Owens game used jersey for Mastro with small numbers on the front, which I have never seen before. A message was passed to Lampson about this. Weeks later Lampson suggested that Champion jerseys of this era were inconsistent as related to other teams (no mention about Syracuse). I asked for Lampson's photo proof that he used to write the letter on this Syracuse jersey. He never provided photo proof.

I am tired of this game.

To the dealers, auction houses, ebay sellers who have authenticated items from Lou Lampson: Unless you put me in direct contact with him when I have a question, I will not buy the item from you.

But that's not what worries me. What bothers me is the person who spends his savings thinking he's getting a good item because of Mr. Lampson's letter of authenticity and don't know what they're getting into. It's not okay to rip people off.

The stories about Mr. Lampson being thrown around are now legendary. "He doesn't use a cell phone." "He doesn't know how to use a computer." It's not true. Mastro contacted him about the Syracuse jerseys via email. Mastro told me that personally. If they can communicate with him that way, we should be able to do that too.

Stand behiind your word Mr. Lampson.
Eric

[hblakewolf]

Eric-
Don't forget that Lampson also has an "easy out" even if he is proven to be wrong.

Auction houses including American Memorabila have a "ALL SALES FINAL" policy. Legally, this policy does not hold water! If you receive an item that is clearly fake or not as described, it can be challenged under the umbrella of fraud-period. If the auction houses accepts Visa/Mastercard, the charge can be blocked and a case opened against the auction house. Regrdless of these policies that the auction houses are now trying to hide behind, a judge and jury will clearly rule in the buyers favor, as will Visa/Mastercard. With this said, who needs all the headaches? Personally, until the auction houses want to accept responsibility, I simply will not bid with these outfits.

FYI

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

ALWAYS BUYING PHILLIES, PORTLAND BEAVERS AND PORTLAND MAVERICKS JERSEYS

[CollectGU]

If proof is provided, American Memorabilia will refund your money...

[Eric]

If proof is provided, American Memorabilia will refund your money...

They did refund my money- but in my case with the Flutie jersey- it's not easy to prove something was NOT used.

If the authenticator says it exists, then the consumer says "I can't find any proof of it" doesn't it seem very easy to say "our authenticator says it exists"

In my examples above- I have not seen every single photo every taken of Kellen Winslow's Chargers helmets, Doug Flutie's Generals jerseys and Billy Owens Syracuse jerseys, but I can say I have never seen what Mr. Lampson is claiming.

The responsibility should be on him to show it does exist, which he has failed to do in each instance I listed.

Eric

[allstarsplus]

If proof is provided, American Memorabilia will refund your money...

CollectGU - How can you categorically make a statement like that on behalf of American Memorabilia?

Proof to one person is not the same as to another and that is why so many disagreements end up in front of a judge.

Here are the rules copied direct from item 16 & 17 on American Memorabilia's website:


Please bid with confidence. Third party authenticators have professionally examined all items in this auction. Please do not bid on the lot if you are uncomfortable with the authenticator. ALL SALES ARE FINAL.
Placing a bid constitutes acceptance of all conditions and terms of sale. In the event of a dispute involving litigation, the bidder agrees to pay all attorney fees and the costs involved for collection of funds for the auction house. Any legal action against the auction house shall be brought in the state of Nevada, Clark CountyEric pointed out many instances of his proof and it still didn't matter to Lampson. He always has an excuse.

When is Lampson going to start writing checks?

Andrew

[hblakewolf]

Andrew-
Can you please provide me with your contact info? I have the shirt you have been asking about.

Thanks.
Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[CollectGU]

CollectGU - How can you categorically make a statement like that on behalf of American Memorabilia?

Proof to one person is not the same as to another and that is why so many disagreements end up in front of a judge.

Andrew


Andrew,

Almost all of them say "All Sales Final" including - Huggins and Scott, Grey Flannel, Mastro, etc...

What I am simply stating is although many state "All Sales Final" for obvious business reasons, there are some auction houses that will refund money if proper proof is submitted, whether or not they say all sales are final.

I know "proof" is subjective and that is exactly the reason MEARS' buy back policy that you talked about earlier holds no water with me.

They state it in writing but when it came time for them to execute on it - i.e. the well documented Hornsby bat, and an Arod rookie bat - they didn't seem to come through. A guarantee is only as good as the person backing it....