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Eric
11-29-2005, 10:12 AM
Hey everyone-
I thought it might be a good idea to start a master list of game used items which are red flags. Doesn't mean these things are always fakes, it just means that there's reason to question. Please feel free to add to the list with info to back up your statements.
Share the knowledge!
Eric
moderator

Red Flags in the game used hobby
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Item:
1994 Brett Favre Packers throwback jersey

Reason:
Extra blank throwback jerseys were issued in various cuts and have trickled into the market as game used.

See gameusedforum.com archive
http://www.network54.com/Forum/379976/message/1109538475/last-1111635649/94+FAVRE+THROWBACK+ON+AMERICAN+AUCTION
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Item:
1989 Ken Griffey Jr. Mariners rookie jersey

Reason:
Scoreboard produced many replicas with "proper tagging" which were sold with griffey's autograph.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/383222/message/1122350271/
A year later scoreboard released replicas with "Griffey Jr." on the nameplate signed by Ken Jr and Ken Sr.
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Item:
Larry Bird home Celtics jersey 1991-92

Reason:
Too many on the market.
Space between the numbers and word "Celtics" could help you determine if yours is the real deal
http://www.network54.com/Forum/379976/message/1128284345/last-1129230516/Spacing..
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Item:
Pujols X-bat with dominican flag

Reason:
Many are on the market, but Pujols has never used a bat with dominican flag on it
http://www.network54.com/Forum/383222/message/1117722306/
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finest_collectibles
11-29-2005, 10:33 AM
Item:
Mike Piazza Rawlings Bats

Reason:
Piazza NEVER uses Rawlings in games due to contract with Mizuno. Rawlings bats used strictly in batting practice.

Currently 2 Rawlings "Game" Used bats running on Ebay

sportscentury
11-29-2005, 12:05 PM
Eric,

This is a great thread to start. Here are the first three off of the top of my head:

1) 2003 Texas Rangers jerseys with set 3 tags. MeiGray bought out the Rangers' team stock from 2003 (actually, they have purchased jerseys from 1996 to present from the Rangers) and I personally went through these jerseys (ultimately selecting what is, in my opinion, the finest AROD jersey from his 2003 MVP season - simply ridiculous wear) and there was not a single set 3 jersey. All of the ones from the Rangers had set 1 or set 2 tagging and they all had the Rangers' extra serial code tag on the inside. And, yes, the set 1 and set 2 jerseys from the Rangers (at MeiGray) are the ones that actually show real game wear. There is a boatload of set 3 Rangers jerseys from 2003 of superstar players. I am not saying that they are not game worn, but I've never seen one that shows any game wear and not one of them came from the Rangers/MeiGray.

2) Manny Ramirez Red Sox jerseys from the last few years with the giant-font year tags and the same manufactured dirt patterns on the front. These jerseys always have the same dirt patterns that actually cover the tagging (as if Manny slid into base head first all of the time with his shirt tail out)!! Some of these jerseys are listed as being from certain games. In the old gameusedforum, there was a post by a member who stated that he watched a game from which one of the supposedly game used Manny jerseys came and Manny never slid into base or got dirty at all ... yet the shirt had the same exact dirt pattern on the front as all of them do. They come with Manny's own letter, signed by him ... but it doesn't mean a thing. There are a boatload of these. Here again, I'm not saying that they are not game worn ... but I wouldn't touch one of these with a 10-foot pole. The Manny jerseys that I've seen that I know are real and game used have the normal Boston tagging (consistent with the tagging across Red Sox players for that year) and not a single one has the dirt pattern that you find on all of the Manny jerseys that come with his signed letter.

3) Phillies superstar Wilson jerseys from the late 1970s and 1980s that have a year/set tag with a dash in between the year and the set numbers. There should be no dash. For example, a set 1 Steve Carlton shirt from 1985 should have a strip tag that reads "85 1" ... if you see one that reads "85-1", stay away. These were extras that someone made up and they have been floating around for years (Howard Wold could add endless red flags here, I'm certain, but this is one of the most common ones to look out for). I have seen these "dash" jerseys for Rose, Schmidt, and Lefty. They may have been made up for other popular players, too (like Bowa, the Bull, Maddox, etc.), but I haven't seen them.

Reid

allstarsplus
11-29-2005, 01:57 PM
Barry Bonds

Be careful of "game used" bats, gloves, cleats, jackets, pants, jerseys from 1999 - present that don't have either his hologram on them and in the case of his jerseys that don't have the Bonds Authenticated patch.

kingjammy24
11-29-2005, 01:59 PM
1) 1990 Jose Canseco home jerseys. There are a boatload of these out there which are always tagged "2 90". How Jose managed to have at least
40 "Set 2" home jerseys, I'm not quite sure. I've never seen one tagged "1 90". I suspect these came from Scoreboard as theyre always autographed as well.

2) 1994 Frank Thomas 'Wilson' jerseys. The early 90's were a mess for White Sox jerseys with both Russell and Wilson supplying the team. I have yet to find a single picture of Frank wearing a Wilson jersey in 1994 where I have seen tons of pictures of him wearing Russell jerseys. Not surprisingly, the majority of 1994 Frank Thomas jerseys out there are Wilson jerseys. Find me a single picture of him wearing a Wilson jersey in 1994 and I'll retract my opinion. (While both Wilson and Russell supplied the White Sox in the early 90's, photographic evidence suggests the White Sox favored Russell jerseys).

3) 1994 Chicago White Sox Russell jersey tagging. For me, there isn't a more muddled situation than early 90's White Sox jerseys. Not only were 2 companies supplying the team with jerseys, but I've seen at least 3 different tagging variations for the Russell jerseys alone. (1994 seems to be a big year for White Sox jerseys out there).
It's my opinion that the proper tagging for a 1994 White Sox jersey should read:
"35 - THOMAS - 46 + 2 - 94" - (Number - Name + Additional Length - Year)
or
"12 - GREBECK - 40 + 0 - 94".

I've seen everything from Russell tagging that reads just "1994" to "THOMAS 1994" to "35 - 46 - 94".


Rudy.

Eric
11-29-2005, 02:07 PM
Item:
Pujols X-bat with dominican flag

Reason:
Many are on the market, but Pujols has never used a bat with dominican flag on it
http://www.network54.com/Forum/383222/message/1117722306/
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Here's a link to a Pujols xbat with dominican flag sticker currently on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/Albert-Pujols-2004-Game-Used-Bat-Cardinals-MVP_W0QQitemZ8727496365QQcategoryZ60596QQssPageNam eZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://i11.ebayimg.com/03/i/05/84/9e/ae_1.JPG

Birdbats
11-30-2005, 12:40 PM
Along with Pujols X-bats w/ flag, beware of Pujols Mizuno bats. In fact, you should use caution with just about all Pujols bats. For information on characteristics you should look for in a Pujols bat, check out the Pujols bat buyer's guide at http://www.birdbats.com.

If you see a McGwire Cardinals-era bat advertised as "uncracked, no deadwood," that's a red flag. With few exceptions, McGwire used bats until they were unusable -- the Cardinals HOF/museum even has a sign with its McGwire display that says as much.

A Jim Edmonds bat without his signature spiral handle tape job is a red flag. He'll use an untaped bat for BP, but not in a game.

hblakewolf
11-30-2005, 05:28 PM
Reid-
The dash between the year and set tag is a dead giveaway. REAL Phillies jerseys manufactured by Wilson never have this dash. There are dozens of 1980 and 1981 Rose, Schmidt, Carlton, and Bowa's floating around with the bad tagging. Should you be offered one-run.

How about this Brett jersey to further show what a bogus Wilson tag looks like. This is sad!

http://cgi.ebay.com/GEORGE-BRETT-GAME-WORN-1982-KANSAS-CITY-ROYALS-JERSEY_W0QQitemZ8731394325QQcategoryZ60597QQrdZ1QQ cmdZViewItem

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

cohibasmoker
12-10-2005, 09:28 PM
Equipment authenticators who issue letters of opinion but don't back their letters up. Would this be a red flag?

davetiki
12-11-2005, 04:47 PM
Here is another Pujols bat with a flag.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ALBERT-PUJOLS-2004-VERY-RARE-GAME-USED-X-BAT_W0QQitemZ8733530062QQcategoryZ60596QQssPageNam eZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I contacted the seller and here was his reply:

"it's obvious you don't know anything about albert pujols. the bat is from ASI and ASI deals with albert pujols, alex rodriguez. they have been selling game used items for over 5 years. go do some research on someone else and if you don't like the bat don't buy it."

I am so grateful for sites like this so that people can be educated so they can pick out the fakes like this.

davidzirnhelt1@yahoo.com

EndzoneSports
12-17-2005, 05:34 AM
Like the '94 Favre Throwback jersey that Eric mentions, the same can apparently be said for the '94 Broncos Thowbacks of Elway--particularly the white "road" variation.

This jersey was worn for for only one game on Sep 26 @ Buffalo. In the late 90s we had purchased, owned and subsequently sold (in good faith) what we believed at that time was the one and only game-worn jersey from this game. We subsequenetly learned, however, that several of these "unique" jerseys exist. AMI of Las Vegas has auctioned at least two if not three different jerseys of this type (all authenticated by Lou Lampson), one in Oct 2004 and a second in Apr of '05 (each was auto'd in a differnt color Sharpie). There was also a 3rd unautographed jersey that was auctioned by AMI in 2002, which they argued may have been one of the same two previously mentioned that had since been signed (granted).
Not to pick on AMI, Grey Flannel was apparently in on the action as well. Not only did they authenticate the jersey which mentioned above as having owned at one time (LOA #M.N. 949B), but that also authenticated at least two others that we were made aware of as well (LOA #R.V. 342E and Lot #1130, 5/2001)

For additional details, see article "Unique" Elway Jerseys Aboud on our web site at http://endzone.pscoggin.com/gunews.htm

indyred
09-06-2006, 10:23 PM
Good info in here, any new one's.......

Nathan
09-06-2006, 11:15 PM
Peyton Manning jerseys from any year (college or pro) with short sleeves.

suave1477
09-07-2006, 08:33 AM
Here is another Pujols bat with a flag.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ALBERT-PUJOLS-2004-VERY-RARE-GAME-USED-X-BAT_W0QQitemZ8733530062QQcategoryZ60596QQssPageNam eZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I contacted the seller and here was his reply:

"it's obvious you don't know anything about albert pujols. the bat is from ASI and ASI deals with albert pujols, alex rodriguez. they have been selling game used items for over 5 years. go do some research on someone else and if you don't like the bat don't buy it."

I am so grateful for sites like this so that people can be educated so they can pick out the fakes like this.

davidzirnhelt1@yahoo.com


Here is something interesting the seller is also selling a REAL Albert Pujols Jersey or at least its authenticated by Mears with an A5. Are you sure the bat was fake? Unfortunately ebay has taken down the photos of the bat so we can't see them, but what made you think the bat was a fake?

Eric
09-07-2006, 09:16 AM
It was an x-bat with a domincan flag on it. According to Birdbats research, Pujols never used those. They could be ordered by anyone on the internet and many ended up in the hobby as game used.
Eric

weimerskirch
09-07-2006, 05:03 PM
Posters,

Going back a ways and I may be giving up my age....In 1975 McAuliffe Corp. made additional Reggie Jackson A's jerseys to be used as salesman samples and for retailers to display in their stores. Most of these jerseys were either green or gold, but some white jerseys were manufactured and not game used by Reggie. They are very difficult to identify as the tagging is identical. One tipoff is the light or no game use. Most die hard A's collectors in the 80's and 90's stayed away from the '75s for this reason. This information was given to me by Dick Dobbins who I bought a handful of A's jerseys from almost 20 years ago. Frank Fleizach who had one of the largest A's game used jerseys before he auctioned it off on Lelands also advised me of this issue.

I have been tracking the sale/auction of all A's jerseys over the last five years. In that time, nine Reggie knits were auctioned off. Five (5) from 1975 and four (4) from 1974. Of the '74s only one was all original. MEARS agreed with me that one was a fake, and two others were reduced by MEARS when I pointed out significant alterations. Of the 1975s I own one which is all-original, one was pulled from the last SCP auction immediately after I pointed out significant alterations. The other 3 from 1975 appear to be all original, but again quite a few jerseys in that time frame especially when 4 of the 5 from 1975 were green.

Mark

kingjammy24
09-07-2006, 06:33 PM
2002-present texas rangers jerseys without the inventory tag. (typically a 5-digit number on white strip tag).

rudy.

staindsox
09-07-2006, 06:39 PM
I just wanted to add a word on the Manny Ramirez jerseys from his charity. I know many of you have posted on these in the past. Yes they seem suspicious, but I believe the ones from his charity are real...I cannot speak for the ones from ASI, ESM, etc. I have handled many of these and there is a specific reason I am confident that they are real. Manny splashes on expensive perfume before every game. I know it sounds crazy but it's true. I even found corroborating evidence: "Jinxed" by Ken Leiker mentions it. I have some jerseys that still carry a strong perfume scent three years later. I think he ordered a ton of them, but I'm convinced they were used.

Chris

gamer35
09-07-2006, 06:53 PM
I have also handled several of shirts from his charity and did smell the cologne on the shirts. However, that cologne did not smell like men's cologne.

The jerseys may have been worn, but I believe that they were doctored. I have nearly every Red Sox game from 2003 and 2004 archived and in going back and reviewing the games, it is evident that the dirt stains are not consistent with actual game wear. How do you explain dirt stains inside the jersey and on the year tagging? It is not as if he slid into second base with his shirt untucked.

How about the supposed game used Manny shirts from 2005 from Steiner? I saw a few of them and they show absolutely no use with crisp tags. Same goes for the 25 "game used" shirts that he unloaded to Sportsworld in Boston following the '05 season.

It amazes me that he pulls in $20MM a year and floods the market with all of this memorabilia. I am a big fan but you must due your due diligence when buying Manny stuff, even though him or his people.

sportscentury
09-07-2006, 08:38 PM
How about the supposed game used Manny shirts from 2005 from Steiner? I saw a few of them and they show absolutely no use with crisp tags.

Patrick,

Since S.Carter cannot respond at this time, perhaps one of his colleagues at Steiner can comment on this. I hope Steiner has not resorted to American Memorabilia's avoidance strategy.

Sincerely,
Snoop Doggy Dogg (aka, Reid)

34swtns
09-09-2006, 07:58 AM
Bears "gamers" made by Wilson from the late 80's and early 90's. The mail-order "authentics" that were available during this time period are identical to Bears team issued jerseys. Bottom line, if it doesn't show game use, you've probably got a "store bought" jersey. I just saw a Payton mail-order sell on ebay for over $800. It was listed as "game used worn". Another just like it went for the more appropriate price of $114 partially because the seller didn't list it as a gamer and because it wasn't even Walter's size. It was a size 38 and Walter wore a 42.

GLOVEHUNTER
10-19-2006, 01:10 PM
You state that Wilson issued Authentic Bears Jerseys during the late eighties thru the early ninetys that are identical to Bears team issued Jerseys. How can you tell the difference? The one I own seems to have all of the proper tagging for a jersey issued during the late eighties. The only problem with it is I can't identifiy the players name on the back (Wynblade #45) I'm was thinking this could be a replacement player from 1987.but now it could be who ever ordered this jersey had Wilson sew their name on the back. Any additional information anyone can give about these jerseys that Wilson put out would be greatly appreciated.

Chris

both-teams-played-hard
10-19-2006, 01:22 PM
but now it could be who ever ordered this jersey had Wilson sew their name on the back. Any additional information anyone can give about these jerseys that Wilson put out would be greatly appreciated.

Chris

During this time period, the Bears jerseys had 2-color heat-pressed NOBs. If it is sewn, then it is most likely a "fan" jersey.

GLOVEHUNTER
10-19-2006, 01:30 PM
Would the name be heat pressed on a name plate or directly on the Jersey? mine has a name plate.

both-teams-played-hard
10-19-2006, 01:36 PM
It should be heat-pressed to a nameplate. I have no knowledge of "scab" jerseys from '87. That deserves a little research.

MikeSharon
10-19-2006, 02:57 PM
Nolan Ryan Astros Jerseys with the Goodman tag in the neck, Goodman never put tags in the necks of Astros pull over jerseys they were always in the tail,I personally own 12 and have seen hundreads. They didnt start putting tags in the necks of his jerseys until Ryan was with the Rangers
Mike Sharon
george.sharon@cyfairvfd.org

kingjammy24
10-19-2006, 03:38 PM
russell athletic mlb "gamers" without a polyester flag tag. sure there are legit gamers out there lacking them, but it always makes me immediately look at the collar to see if a tag was cut out.

rudy.

34swtns
10-19-2006, 05:09 PM
You state that Wilson issued Authentic Bears Jerseys during the late eighties thru the early ninetys that are identical to Bears team issued Jerseys. How can you tell the difference? The one I own seems to have all of the proper tagging for a jersey issued during the late eighties. The only problem with it is I can't identifiy the players name on the back (Wynblade #45) I'm was thinking this could be a replacement player from 1987.but now it could be who ever ordered this jersey had Wilson sew their name on the back. Any additional information anyone can give about these jerseys that Wilson put out would be greatly appreciated.

Chris

According to the Bears All-Time Roster which includes the "scab" teams from '82 and '87 there was never anybody with that name on the team and that was, of course, Fencik's # from '76 to '87, and nobody had that number again until "Ironhead" Heyward in '93.

Eric
08-07-2008, 05:52 PM
Hey everyone-
I thought it might be a good idea to start a master list of game used items which are red flags. Doesn't mean these things are always fakes, it just means that there's reason to question. Please feel free to add to the list with info to back up your statements.
Share the knowledge!
Eric
moderator

Red Flags in the game used hobby
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Item:
1994 Brett Favre Packers throwback jersey

Reason:
Extra blank throwback jerseys were issued in various cuts and have trickled into the market as game used.

See gameusedforum.com archive
http://www.network54.com/Forum/379976/message/1109538475/last-1111635649/94+FAVRE+THROWBACK+ON+AMERICAN+AUCTION
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Here is what a letter looks like acknowledging that 36 Favre game cuts were produced and sold to grey flannel...

13472

Bondsgloves
08-07-2008, 10:21 PM
Every single 2001 Bonds Jersey signed and said to be game worn. There only has been one real 2001 game worn bonds Jersey on the market. That was listed by Mike Quick and Coveh. All the rest are Jerseys signed with HR numbers and have never seen any game action. The extra tagging is missing under russell. Hoskins said he cut them off before the were sold BS. I have examined many of these Jerseys and there is no way tagging was cut off. The market was flooded with so called Game Used 2001 Jerseys.

ebay item Item number: 130243091647
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=130243091647&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=003

Sad collectors have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on these
Jerseys.
http://i24.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/fb/0e/e8da_0.JPG (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130243091647&indexURL=3#ebayphotohosting)
http://i21.ebayimg.com/03/i/000/fb/0e/f10c_12.JPG (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130243091647&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting)

http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/51985085.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=AE5E3E7DB8E31417DC2E892163B787E5284831B75F48EF45

trsent
08-07-2008, 11:07 PM
Every single 2001 Bonds Jersey signed and said to be game worn. There only has been one real 2001 game worn bonds Jersey on the market. That was listed by Mike Quick and Coveh. All the rest are Jerseys signed with HR numbers and have never seen any game action. The extra tagging is missing under russell. Hoskins said he cut them off before the were sold BS. I have examined many of these Jerseys and there is no way tagging was cut off. The market was flooded with so called Game Used 2001 Jerseys.

ebay item Item number: 130243091647
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=130243091647&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=003

Sad collectors have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on these
Jerseys.


Just wondering, how do you know they are all not genuine and that there is only one real one on the market? I know Barry and Steve had arguments in the press, but I was always under the impression Steve was close to Barry and that Barry stabbed Steve in the back years down the road.

Bondsgloves
08-08-2008, 12:10 AM
Check out the tagging on the Bonds Jerseys. There are a few things.

1.) None of the 2001 Bonds Jersey home/road/alternate that were ever sold by Steve had the extra length flag tags. Like in the Espn the magazine or getty photo I have. Every photo with Bonds 2001 Jerseys untucked show 3 extra flag tags.
2.) Most of the 2000's are legit, the 2001 are not.
3.) In the photo if you look at the Bonds authenticated patch it doesn't say 2001. The ones that Steve sold had a Bonds authenticated patch that said 2001. You will never see Barry wearing this type of patch.
4.) On the Jerseys that Steve sold the Bonds authenticated patch was ironed on. The gamers were actually stiched on in 2001 (like the one that recently sold on ebay.
5.) The Jersey that was sold on ebay came directly from Barry's locker not through Steve.
6.) Barry claims that Steve's Jerseys were imitations, that Steve had him sign.
7.) I had personally seen Barry's locker in 2001 and saw the correct tagging. I had never seen the other tagging that claimed to be game used.

I'm not here to burst anybody's bubble but until anyone can prove otherwise. No doubt a lot of what Steve sold was legit bats, cleats, etc.. The only Jersey I can say for certain was a gamer is that one that was on ebay.


The number of these Jerseys that are on the market are ridiculous. Below are a few examples.

real game used 2001 jersey and photo's of similar tagging
http://i24.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/fb/0e/e8da_12.JPG (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130243091647&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting)

http://i21.ebayimg.com/03/i/000/fb/0e/f10c_12.JPG (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130243091647&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting)

http://cache1.asset-cache.net/xc/526477.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1939847EC77F5F8D1CE5F74612A32E51DC4

Here are the fakes: see the 2001 stiched on the authenticated tag. No extra flag tag. You won't see any photo's of Barry wearing this style of patch.

http://www.lelands.com/LotImages/56288D_mid.jpeg (http://www.lelands.com/LotImages/56288D_lg.jpeg)http://www.lelands.com/LotImages/16/thumbnails/29253_2.jpg (http://www.lelands.com/LotImages/16/popups/29253_2.jpg)