Differences of a Salesman's Sample Jersey

[Swoboda4]

If I had a salesman's sample of a baseball player's jersey would I be able to tell the difference from a game used jersey of the same player? I don't have this problem but what should I look out for?

[kingjammy24]

my first response is that a salesman's sample shouldn't show any use whereas a game used jersey should. i suspect you're probably looking for an answer which provides for the possibility that someone may have manufactured use on a salesman's sample.

i think salesman's samples stem from 2 legit purposes; one is that they're made as prototypes for a manufacturer trying to win a contract from a team. hence the manufacturer creates a "sample jersey" to show prospective clients (teams) their work. in this case, if the manufacturer fails to win a contract with the team, then it'd be fairly easy to spot the salesman's sample - it'd be the wrong manufacturer for the year/time period. depending on how realistic the manufacturer wanted to make the prototype, you may also see tagging and fonts that never actually ended up being used.

the second purpose presents a trickier situation. i believe there've been instances where a manufacturer would create jerseys to present them as business gifts to VIPs, big patrons, etc. in this case, i'd look at the size and any player-unique customizations such as extra length, custom sleeves, etc. a salesman's sample would likely be missing these latter elements. other than that, i'd really try to ascertain whether the game use looks fabricated or legit.

rudy.

[Swoboda4]

Kingjammy24 back in town. Thanks. Hey Rudy,look at current items for bid and weigh in on the Steiner/heilman,"Does this label look O.K." thread.
Robert

[kingjammy24]

here's a nice example of a modern salesman's sample:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230013988846


rudy.

[sportscentury]

Kingjammy24 back in town.

This is very nice to see.

[Swoboda4]

I understand that salesman samples are mostly made exhibiting a star players' name and from companies different from what the team is actually using(hense the salesman).
So, a jersey displaying the correct label(for the team)that year is automatically NOT a saleman's sample?

[justinwc80]

From what I can tell there are salesman samples jerseys and rings. From what I've seen at auction the tagging should be different on a salesman sample although there have been instances where people have doctored these. Alot probably depends on what era you are looking at. Dave Grob is the expert on everything jersey wise so check out mearsonline.com and see if any of those articles help you out.

[Swoboda4]

Thanks for Mears site info. Not to beat a dead horse, but the jersey I have in mind, to eliminate from being a salesman's sample is the recent Brett jersey I've recently on a previous thread. To the point for this topic though,this label appears to be not altered and also bearing the correct label for that period.
The only confirmation I need(and a telltale factor on salesman's sample I also believe) is the size for the player that year. A salesman's sample wouldn't neccessarily be accurate as to size ) I see 44 for Brett elsewhere is that what other Brett collectors see also?
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l11/redmills/JACKSON6.jpg?t=1260050397

[TNTtoys]

I understand that salesman samples are mostly made exhibiting a star players' name and from companies different from what the team is actually using(hense the salesman).
So, a jersey displaying the correct label(for the team)that year is automatically NOT a saleman's sample?

Not necessarily. I have seen salesman's samples done by manufacturers who are already making the jerseys for a specific team. These generally are variations of the current team's jersey that most likely do not catch on -- sort of like a prototype.

Two examples I can think of are:

1. A Tom Glavine BP that is presently on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Tom-Glavine-New-York-Mets-Salesman-Sample-Jersey_W0QQitemZ270470364817QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_ SM_Fan_Shop?hash=item3ef94a3e91
This is a 2003-2004 jersey made by Majestic who were already doing all of the jerseys for MLB at the time but a style that the team never went with. One thing to note; it's a star player jersey.
Here is what the one they eventually went with looked like:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160385230921&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT

2. A 1987 Mets BP done by Rawlings. Another star player jersey (Gary Carter). See the 2 photos attached; the first is a salesman's sample / prototype containing white in the team logo, and the second is what the team eventually went with. Worth noting is that both the real and the salesman's sample (I have both) are same size, same tagging, same player customizations. If you didn't know all of the details of what style they wore on field, you wouldn't know the difference based on manufacturer and tagging.

[TNTtoys]

Now that we're on this topic, there is one thing I haven't quite figured out. Back in 1983, Wilson seems to have churned out a lot of salesman's sample jerseys. All seem to be in size 42, star players of course, and no player number customization.

For example, I am sure you have seen many of these out there... Pete Rose Phillies road blue jersey. Made by Wilson (who already had the team contract). Has a lower front tag denoting the year "83" but does not have the player number with the year as the game used jersey does (one would expect "14 83" for a Pete Rose jersey. Many of these are being sold over ebay as "game issued" but this is really not accurate.

Where did all of these jerseys come from, and what was their purpose? It couldn't have been for Wilson to bid on a contract held by another manufacturer.

[Swoboda4]

So,if a jersey ISN'T altered -and it exhibits the same style that was worn that year and the previous year (Remember again ISN'T altered) it should not be a salesman's sample.

[TNTtoys]

So,if a jersey ISN'T altered -and it exhibits the same style that was worn that year and the previous year (Remember again ISN'T altered) it should not be a salesman's sample.

Sorry, have to disagree with you on this one... it's not black and white.

To every rule, there is an exception. Sometimes many.

[Swoboda4]

So if the Strawberry is "perfect" how did you realize it was a sample?

[TNTtoys]

So if the Strawberry is "perfect" how did you realize it was a sample?

These examples are our old friend, the Scoreboard jerseys... Perfect in every way, correct manufacturer, exact tagging... set, year, etc., correct player size, correct player customizations, etc.

Course this is only 1 example I had immediate photos of.

You also have the McAuliffe scenario, where a whole forum here was dedicated. In this scenario, anyone could have ordered the star player of their time in the correct size, and that jersey would arrive with all of the correct team tagging.

I don't think you can really make a blanket statement when such anomalies exist in the hobby. I have only called into light a couple, but I am sure there are many more out there.

[TNTtoys]

Maybe I am going off on a tangent here equating factory samples not issued to the team to salesman's samples?
If so, then please disregard that last statement about the Scoreboards and McAuliffes.

I do think we need to research the 83 Rose jerseys and those similar cases. They are all of the same manufacturer that currently does the team's jerseys, the same style, they have team tagging (though they don't seem to be designated to any individual player by tagging), star player number on back (or name in some cases), and are usually size 42s (which may or may not be the same size as that player for that time -- but I guess the chances are good being that this was a very common size in 1983).

[Swoboda4]

Nick,
Bring it on. If there was a University for the study of game used jerseys, this should be a class in the curriculum,
My particular thesis is my friends jersey:

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l11/redmills/JACKSON1-1.jpg?t=1260050144
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l11/redmills/JACKSON3.jpg?t=1260050286
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l11/redmills/JACKSON4.jpg?t=1260050361
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l11/redmills/JACKSON6.jpg?t=1260050397
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l11/redmills/JACKSON2.jpg?t=1260050499

Lets see the Rose. And all of them.

[TNTtoys]

Here's the only one I was able to find duirng a quick search -- a 1983 home Pete Rose Wilson salesman's sample.

[Swoboda4]

When I mention my friends Brett jersey-it's still undetermined-it could still be good (innocent untill proven guilty)-I was just wondering is there anything that strikes a viewer that this is a Salesman's sample.
The Rose looks good also. Should all jerseys be suspect? What makes someone say of an older jersey,"No,this is good." ?

[both-teams-played-hard]

Should all jerseys be suspect?

Yes, especially star players. The only salesman samples that I am familiar with have factory and inventory codes on swatches. I have never seen a true salesman sample with a player name on back. Some with mfg names on back like "POWERS" and "WILSON". I am not an expert, i have not seen everything and I make myself unfamiliar with jersey from 1990 to the present.


http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/3207/sitewilsonsalessamp.jpg
A Wilson salesman sample tag. * note the spelling of D-U-R-E-N-E.

This was from a football jersey with "WILSON" sewn on back above numerals.
The history of retail jerseys should be examined before calling a jersey a salesman sample.
*note...Scoreboard's baseball jerseys with proper tags are by definition, "retail".

[both-teams-played-hard]

A 1950s salesman sample tag for Powers brand football pants:

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/9458/sitepowersfactorycodes5.jpg (http://www.both-teams-played-hard.com/)

[prichmond]

Several questions

how do you tell the difference between game used and a salesman jersey.

When did salesman jersey's begin to be used

what were they used for?

thanks

pete

[jppopma]

Depending on the jersey, the differences can be very minor to completely different (style, font, etc.). Some of these jerseys will be true to spec right down to patches and tagging.

They have had salesmen samples dating back into the 50's, most likely even longer ago than that.

The purpose of the salesmen jerseys is to for representatives from the jersey manufacturers to show off ideas or different styles of jerseys to the teams. They would make up prototype jerseys or sample jerseys to show the teams what they would look like before going into full production. I'm not sure, but I think that salesmen would also use these jerseys to "show off" to other clients (ie; minor league teams, schools, etc.).

[prichmond]

thanks much

pete