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View Full Version : Are GU Items Becoming like BB Cards??



Swoboda4
10-02-2010, 08:31 AM
I'm beginning to get the feeling that our game used items are going the way of post 1983 baseball cards. Aside from ourselves,ever try to sell an item to anyone else? While doing so did it feel like they looked at you as if you were trying to sell them a piece of pyrite? Most of the people I attempt to sell decent enough items to are in the baseball memorabilia community which makes this suspicion ring true.
Case in point. Yesterday I was in Bay Ridge and stopped off at Legends Sporting Goods. Aside from taking over the sporting goods mantle in the area from Triangle Sporting Goods,Legends hosted autograph signings so I felt this was a decent place at attempting to sell some Brooklyn Cyclone/Mets game used items.They have photographic memorabilia from both teams in their window so I thought what I was offering would enhance that and cause passers-by to stop and look. Anyway,I walked in and I dont know whether it was Pete or Andrew behind the counter but the conversation went like this:
Me: "Hi,How you doing? You guys buy game used...
Them:"No."
Me: "..items?" "I got Cyclones and Mets items."
Them:"No."
Me: "OK. Thanks anyway"
Them:"No problem."
Well,there is a problem. And just like we were slowly made to understand that any baseball card after 1983(some argue 1975) was basically worthless,so to is any game used item not belonging to a Hall of Famer or not tied to a significant historical event.
What bothered or struck me the most from yesterday's encounter was not that they opted not to buy anything(they're a store not a buyer) but that memorabilia people weren't curious as to what I had. I could have had anything and could have been a desperate motivated seller,it wouldn't have mattered. This example is not an isolated incident so actually,what do we really own?

Jeffredsfan
10-02-2010, 08:50 AM
Hopefully we all own something that brings us enjoyment. If we own stuff thinking it's an investment, it's just as you stated perfectly, it's like owning post '83 baseball cards. Equipment collectors have a very small group of people in which to possibly move our items. I'm sure your story can be echoed throughout this section of the hobby. Best of luck!

kellsox
10-02-2010, 09:13 AM
Speaking from "investment" angle on baseball items, I think that the market has become flooded with GU baseballs. There seems to be tons of these hitting the market in the last 2-3 years. The prices have dropped on these and I don't see these holding any sort of value. To me, it doesn't make a ball any more unique that "Player "x" hit this ball for a foul ball/ single/pop-out/etc...off pitcher "y"- there's just so many of them.
GU Jerseys are getting the same way. Players are wearing them once or twice them they're on MLB.com or sold by steiner. Look at all the crisp tags of GU jerseys that are MLB holo'd over the past couple seasons.
To me bats seem most likely to hold some sort of value mostly because they show unique player characteristics and use is easily visible. A bat used once or twice will appear that way, just as a bat used for several games will.
k

cohibasmoker
10-02-2010, 09:23 AM
...... What bothered or struck me the most from yesterday's encounter was not that they opted not to buy anything(they're a store not a buyer) but that memorabilia people weren't curious as to what I had. I could have had anything and could have been a desperate motivated seller,it wouldn't have mattered. This example is not an isolated incident so actually,what do we really own?[/QUOTE]


Is the problem what you own or the attitude of the dealers?

I don't think your encounter is all that unusual. We HAD store owners in our area with the same attitudes and guess what? Most if not all are out of business. Is it the economy or could it be something else like their attitude? To take it one step further, I stopped going to card shows because of the dealers. Every show was the same with the majority of dealers; their items had outrageous prices, they didn't want my items unless they could get it for pennies on the dollars, they would rather eat their sandwich than give you a minute of their time and their over-all attitudes was they didn't give a damn. Their conversations were always the same; "they're not making any money", "the table fees were too expensive" yada, yada, yada. I always found it interesting that with all their complaining, when the next show came-up, there they were again - their tables filled with the same junk and they were still crying the same old blues. It got old and besides, most of them smelled bad anyway.

What happened to the card shows? For those of us who have been in the hobby for a while, card shows used to be events, places to meet new collectors, renew friendships and see rare items. What happened? It could be a variety of reasons but how many card shows can a person attend where the majority of dealers have the "we don't need you attitude"? Another factor is - eBay. eBay eBay popped up and offered an alternative to the card shows.

Don't get too depressed. Even if your items don't have a value to others, it still has a value to you so put it up on the wall and enjoy it.


Just my opinion,

Jim

CampWest
10-02-2010, 09:43 AM
I would say that people who are not dedicated game used collectors are afraid to buy anything because they're afraid of getting scammed. They do not have the knowledge to assess validity so they assume its fake and they assume its too expensive. Once I learned that I could buy an authentic game used bat of a minor star player for $50-100 (less than the price of a box of mid-tier baseball cards) and got comfortable in knowing what to look for and how to assess, card collecting became obsolete. I sold a few bats on consignment at the local card shop, but not as many as I'd have expected. Prices were good players were good, I had photo-style matches with each bat, and still buyers ooh'ed and aah'ed but were convinced the FBI was going to say they were all fakes like the Mantle and Ruth autograph scandal.

I think the market is out there for the collector who wants just a bat or two, but they are a very tough sell. I've been thinking of getting a table at a card show to sell almost entirely bats, but I'm nervous that it will be a waste of time and turn into a library stand - everyone will pick it up ask a few questions and move on.

Neal
10-02-2010, 09:46 AM
I think your encounter is probably not the norm. I would guess that there are buyers out there that are looking for Cyclone items - you were one of them. Perhaps the dealer is only looking to sell, and may not have any money too buy anything. That is one of many explanations.

When I buy a bat, the last thing I am thinking of is resale. When I was more into cards, I felt the same way, although I did buy a card every so often with thoughts of "flipping". Bats are actually tougher to find for sale, in my experience, which tells me there is a demand, and I wish more were for sale.

I also wholeheartedly agree on modern jerseys - I wonder how many the average player wears during a 162 game schedule.

Swoboda4
10-02-2010, 09:49 AM
Yea Jim and others,
I should clear up the fact that when I walk into a place(and its rare I do that.Once every year or so)I don't bring anything with me. If the answer was yes or somebody expressed interest I go out and come back with the item.
I just thought it strange that somebody in the hobby industry and a big N.L./Brooklyn fan didn't even ask what I had,even though his answer was no,which is perfectly OK I guess.
I've walked into "coin/stamp stores" in the good old days and even though the owner wasn't buying anything he always asked,"What do you have?" His interest and love of what he was involved in always got the better of him to at least ask.
In fairness,the store could be completely retail to their interests and that's that.
This example aside,I do get the feeling the $700 Steiner common player game used jersey is completely worthless to investment. Just buy your favorite players item as mentioned,for you.

Swoboda4
10-02-2010, 09:52 AM
Neal,I've never bought anything thinking I was going to sell it.Never for investment purposes. All local NY favorites of mine. Which is probably what's bothering me about it's actual worth when the time came.

Lokee
10-02-2010, 11:39 AM
If you want to invest for a return game used is not the way to go.

Physical gold/silver/platinum is where it is at.

I was buying gold at 750 and ounce and have almost doubled my return and will for sure double it in the near future.

Swoboda4
10-02-2010, 12:19 PM
lokee,how do you compare platinum,etc vs real estate?

joelsabi
10-02-2010, 12:39 PM
I don't think your encounter is all that unusual. We HAD store owners in our area with the same attitudes and guess what? Most if not all are out of business. Is it the economy or could it be something else like their attitude? To take it one step further, I stopped going to card shows because of the dealers. Every show was the same with the majority of dealers; their items had outrageous prices, they didn't want my items unless they could get it for pennies on the dollars, they would rather eat their sandwich than give you a minute of their time and their over-all attitudes was they didn't give a damn. Their conversations were always the same; "they're not making any money", "the table fees were too expensive" yada, yada, yada. I always found it interesting that with all their complaining, when the next show came-up, there they were again - their tables filled with the same junk and they were still crying the same old blues. It got old and besides, most of them smelled bad anyway.

What happened to the card shows? For those of us who have been in the hobby for a while, card shows used to be events, places to meet new collectors, renew friendships and see rare items. What happened? It could be a variety of reasons but how many card shows can a person attend where the majority of dealers have the "we don't need you attitude"? Another factor is - eBay. eBay eBay popped up and offered an alternative to the card shows.

Don't get too depressed. Even if your items don't have a value to others, it still has a value to you so put it up on the wall and enjoy it.


Just my opinion,

Jim

Your experiences at card shows were identical to mine. I used to set up at card shows with my brotherinlaw and we always gave attention to anyone one who went to our table. It's just good business sense (repeat business)and normal human behavior. So I thought. Instead of once a week habit going to shows before I got into game used, I now attend 1 show a year around Christmas time to fill out my 70's cards sets just because I enjoy talking baseball with this one dealer who sells old commons. His motivation of setting up a table is to get away from the mrs. for a few hours and just enjoy the hobby. I wish all dealers/shopowners had this mentality.

Lokee
10-02-2010, 12:59 PM
lokee,how do you compare platinum,etc vs real estate?

I do not mess with real estate in my opinion that is a risky investment. If you live in Canada especially since they could possible be headed like the US.

I have a friend who lives in Detroit. All he does is buy junk houses for like 500.00 to 2 grand (yes 500.00 dollars). He fixes them up and flips them for 5 to 7 grand. If you can get something like that going it would be worth it.

Remember PHYSICAL gold/silver/platinum is what you want, but you want it in your hand not in holdings.

Mulligans
10-02-2010, 09:43 PM
IMO......Real Estate investing and GU Investments can both be HOME RUNS.....Like anything else, you need to buy low and sell high. You should not buy high with hopes of it going higher!:D

sox83cubs84
10-03-2010, 02:55 PM
I remember going intoa small Chicago shop in the mid-1990s, during the Bulls' second three=peat. The owner, while nice, had the same pennies-on-the-dollar view of buying stuff.

I had Michael Jordan oddball cards to offer her, at a legitimate wholesale price. She wanted to get them for next to nothing, though, and her response was "Michael Jordan doesn't sell". During a Bulls three-peat!!
Can you believe that?

Another card shop in the suburbs defended their meage buying prices by telling me that "we pay 15% of Beckett and we've got cards flying in the door". Yeah, right.

Dave Miedema

stlbats
10-06-2010, 05:43 PM
I know this has been discussed some recently, but its seems to be getting worse. Quality items just dont sell anymore. Is everyone just broke, or is the market getting flooded. This happened with baseball cards years ago. I have never really collected cards seriously but I do know that the only cards worth anything is the hot rookie or vintage stuff. Kind of the same with bats these days. The old old stuff still sells or maybe the hot rookie bat, but regular star players and others just dont unless the prices are dirt cheap, which is killing the hobby in itself. Its getting hard to buy a nice bat or any item and if you do decide to sell after a while, you can only get a fraction of what you paid. Really sad.

Jason

stlbats@bellsouth.net

spartanservitto
10-06-2010, 05:47 PM
I totally agree. I never will buy (rarely) in order to turn profit. Its impossible. You really got to love the hobby to continue to purchase items.

-Tony

mariner_gamers
10-06-2010, 06:13 PM
It is being seen in almost every facet of collecting. The new generations, folks under 30, are really not interested in collecting things. They see collections as a burden to have to tend to and are more interested in technology and not being tethered to things. Add a weak economy and a glut of product and you are seeing what we have now. I believe we are entering a new golden age for game used collectors. We will be able to acquire more items at lower prices. I have already witnessed the beginnings of this the past few years. I have recently, for the first time in 14 years of collecting, started dealing with a direct source rather than middlemen. Players are also a lot easier to approach with their game items than 5 or 10 years ago. If you invest good luck as always, if you collect things are just getting interesting!!!

My .02

Nnunnari
10-06-2010, 08:39 PM
The market is flooded, people don't trust anything to be authentic anymore and players today are issued so many bats that a lot of them end up being passed down to minor leaguers/college kids to use. I agree that today's generation isn't as interested in collecting sports memorabilia as a hobby, plus the fact that baseball has clearly taken a back seat to football in this country has hurt the baseball value.

legaleagle92481
10-06-2010, 08:52 PM
Let me tell you a story last year and the year before I bought alot of MLB Authenticated baseball bats of major stars, all star, mvp, hof type guys and as you probably have seen I decided to sell the bulk of my collection a few months ago and let me tell you on every single bat I lost money. In many cases 2/3rds or more of what I spent in a relatively short period of time. And the players were still playing at a high level so it is not like I was selling items of players that did not have many fans. I took the loss because I can afford to and I thought that as the players age, retire and fade from view and more of their stuff gets on the market I won't even get what I am being offered now.

If your buying as an investment I strongly urge you to reconsider. Put your money in secruities there is a lot of money to be made in the market or real estate which is absurdably cheap now. GU stuff will be worth much less than you paid for it in the long term future and flipping on a regular basis is a risky strategy as even a great deal of a buy you may not make money on. Sure here and there you may get lucky but overall your losses will outweigh your wins. If you buy buy players you like for personal enjoyment and you can never lose. With the stuff I have kept I kept it because I enjoy looking at it and unless I have an unexpected financial tsuamini I will never sell them.

stlbats
10-06-2010, 09:27 PM
I dont ever buy items for resale or investment. I just add items to my personal collection. I do however, every now and then need to sell something to help make another purchase or something like that. I just hate to think that every item you buy is more than likely going to take a huge loss in the future. I have no problem buying a quality item for a decent reasonable price. All the items that I have decided to sell up until recently, I have always gotten at least what I paid for them and didnt really try to get more than that. Now you cant even get what you paid. It would be nice if the professional teams realized that they're prices are way over market value, but I guess they are getting those prices for the items.

Jason

stlbats@bellsouth.net

Klattsy
10-06-2010, 10:36 PM
I agree with Davis.

I think there needs to be a separation between "collecting" which you do for the love of and "dealing" which you would do for a profit. I think that GU "collecting" is strong and evidenced by this community, however "dealing", like trading cards, would be very difficult to do for a business.

As a relatively younger collector, plus someone on low-middle income, IMHO, the hobby is still not affordable as people make out. I am lucky that my collection is based on minor stars and items are affordable, however any new collectors who would be interested in GU items will more than likely be wanting the "superstar" items, which I think are still costly.

So from a collectors POV (and thats what we all are isn't it?), I think it's great. However if I was dealer, not so great.

IMHO.

Mark.

kudu
10-07-2010, 01:05 AM
I agree with Davis.

I think there needs to be a separation between "collecting" which you do for the love of and "dealing" which you would do for a profit. I think that GU "collecting" is strong and evidenced by this community, however "dealing", like trading cards, would be very difficult to do for a business.

As a relatively younger collector, plus someone on low-middle income, IMHO, the hobby is still not affordable as people make out. I am lucky that my collection is based on minor stars and items are affordable, however any new collectors who would be interested in GU items will more than likely be wanting the "superstar" items, which I think are still costly.

So from a collectors POV (and thats what we all are isn't it?), I think it's great. However if I was dealer, not so great.

IMHO.

Mark.

Hey Mark, do you know what the market is like in Australia with regards to gameused cricket, footy, rugby, etc. stuff? Is it easy/tuff to get that kind of stuff down there? Are the prices reasonable or ridiculous? Just curious.

Kurt

redoctober
10-07-2010, 03:13 AM
If you want to invest for a return game used is not the way to go.

Physical gold/silver/platinum is where it is at.

I was buying gold at 750 and ounce and have almost doubled my return and will for sure double it in the near future.


You have already doubled your investment and "WILL FOR SURE DOUBLE IT (AGAIN) IN THE NEAR FUTURE".

OK. Good luck on that guarantee.

legaleagle92481
10-07-2010, 12:34 PM
On the posts earlier in the thread about dealers not buying. It may just be the case of any of the following:

1. The dealer has his money tied up in his current inventory and cannot acquire more until he sells some of it. There is a finite amount any business will invest in inventory.

2. The dealer lacks the knowledge and experience to decipher between real and bogus GU stuff and does not want to get taken. Which may have happened with Swoboda's guy, I got from the post that he runs a sporting goods store and has autograph signings which is a far cry from GU stuff.

3. Even at a cheap price the dealer does not think he can resell the item for much of a profit or the item may be hard to resell at all. I.e. It is from a player who is long retired and forgotten or is a current no name player.

Dealers

legaleagle92481
10-07-2010, 12:45 PM
I think the real problem is the oversupply rather than dealers not buying. Companies like JO, Meigray, Steiner and the teams, leagues and smaller companies in some ways have really been a great benefit to the hobby, they have let us acquire stuff we otherwise could never have gotten BUT they also hurt the hobby in that they introduce a steady source of new material into the market regularly which reduces the values of the stuff already in the market. For example, say JO or MEIgray sells me a jersey for $1,500 from a player on one of the teams in their team partnerships and a few months later I decide to sell it. I advertise it at $1,500 or above I am likely to find no buyers. The buyers know that they can get one from JO or MeiGray at the same price I paid so why buy from me? Even if they are out of stock people are willing to wait until the next season where absent unsual circumstances like the player coming off an amazing year the price is likely to be similar as it was the previous year. So to sell mine I have to drastically lower the price.

Another problem is there are a finite number of collectors willing to pay several grand for the jersey of a particular player. As each one of them obtains such item that further reduces the market.

Klattsy
10-08-2010, 07:14 AM
Hey Mark, do you know what the market is like in Australia with regards to gameused cricket, footy, rugby, etc. stuff? Is it easy/tuff to get that kind of stuff down there? Are the prices reasonable or ridiculous? Just curious.

Kurt

PM sent Kurt...

Klattsy
10-08-2010, 07:24 AM
Hey Mark, do you know what the market is like in Australia with regards to gameused cricket, footy, rugby, etc. stuff? Is it easy/tuff to get that kind of stuff down there? Are the prices reasonable or ridiculous? Just curious.

Kurt

Change of plan...you don't accept PM :)

There is not much GU down here at all. It's very rare to see GU on eBay of ANY sport in Australia. Rugby League has some auctions/fundraisers during the year - the Breast Cancer (pink jersey's) and Heritage Round jersey's get auctioned by clubs for charity.

To be honest i'm not sure what cricket/football teams do with their gear, weather they have plenty of jerseys or what not during the year. Every now and again you will see some items FS but I am not sure how they are obtained initially. I would have thought you would have to know the player. They certainly don't sell items at team shops.

Most memorabilia down here is non-GU signed items. So like a signed card or ball or jersey.

The stuff that is auctioned off goes for a mint (in my book)...anwhere from $500-$10,000 for some items. Way out of my price range.

Having said that, Brett Roneberg, a baseballer who represented Australian at 2 WBC and 2000 Olympics (plus a strong domestic level and trialed at MLB clubs) recently sold a STACK of his gear on eBay to raise money...his 2009 WBC GU jersey sold for $120. His non worn 2006 WBC jersey sold for $65. I'm am spewing I missed both. However I emailed him and he is sending me a stack of his Australian Baseball League (Brisbane Bandits) gear which is great. However if that was a Rugby League or AFL player, it would have gone for a motsa.

I think there would be a market for the stuff, but just not sure how to get it! Even if there was an availability of stuff, I think people would hold onto the items longer anyways, and there would not be and active secondary sales market.

Plus there is no authentication businesses down here so stuff would be sold on trust I guess.

Hope that answers your question!
Mark.

zooat2
10-08-2010, 08:35 AM
I think the real problem is the oversupply rather than dealers not buying. Companies like JO, Meigray, Steiner and the teams, leagues and smaller companies in some ways have really been a great benefit to the hobby, they have let us acquire stuff we otherwise could never have gotten BUT they also hurt the hobby in that they introduce a steady source of new material into the market regularly which reduces the values of the stuff already in the market. For example, say JO or MEIgray sells me a jersey for $1,500 from a player on one of the teams in their team partnerships and a few months later I decide to sell it. I advertise it at $1,500 or above I am likely to find no buyers. The buyers know that they can get one from JO or MeiGray at the same price I paid so why buy from me? Even if they are out of stock people are willing to wait until the next season where absent unsual circumstances like the player coming off an amazing year the price is likely to be similar as it was the previous year. So to sell mine I have to drastically lower the price.

Another problem is there are a finite number of collectors willing to pay several grand for the jersey of a particular player. As each one of them obtains such item that further reduces the market.

- Totally 100% agree with you. The oversupply is getting worse and worse, I mean if you look at the Steiner site there are SO MANY items on there that they will NEVER be able to sell. I started a post on this a few months back, and it seems like this topic is getting so much more traction that its actually scary that this can be happening to our beloved hobby..

- Even from a collecting standpoint that has to be a point where you stop. For example, in my basement/man cave I am literally running out of room and although there are many items out there that I would want, I cannot but them because I have no space. Anyone else have this issue?

Neal
10-08-2010, 09:03 AM
- Totally 100% agree with you. The oversupply is getting worse and worse, I mean if you look at the Steiner site there are SO MANY items on there that they will NEVER be able to sell. I started a post on this a few months back, and it seems like this topic is getting so much more traction that its actually scary that this can be happening to our beloved hobby..

- Even from a collecting standpoint that has to be a point where you stop. For example, in my basement/man cave I am literally running out of room and although there are many items out there that I would want, I cannot but them because I have no space. Anyone else have this issue?

I am almost at that point in terms of my bat collection. I started to really get into bats about 2 years ago. Finding bats at a fair price is tough enough, and as I find them, I may need to let some other things go for either the room or lack of funds. After careful consideration (and having to return several bats recently that Taube would not authenticate), I decided to simply stick to collecting Phillies bats - easier to stay focused.

legaleagle92481
10-08-2010, 09:21 AM
- Totally 100% agree with you. The oversupply is getting worse and worse, I mean if you look at the Steiner site there are SO MANY items on there that they will NEVER be able to sell. I started a post on this a few months back, and it seems like this topic is getting so much more traction that its actually scary that this can be happening to our beloved hobby..

- Even from a collecting standpoint that has to be a point where you stop. For example, in my basement/man cave I am literally running out of room and although there are many items out there that I would want, I cannot but them because I have no space. Anyone else have this issue?

It is part of the reason I sold most of my stuff. I had 30 plus bats, like 20 jerseys, then autographed stuff probably 60 baseballs, maybe 40 full size basketballs, 20 plus football mini helmets, then maybe 20 checks and photos. Then there is the celeb autograph collection which has like 30 checks, a lot of playbills and hardcover books. It got to the point where everywhere I looked there was a game used or autographed item.

AWA85
10-08-2010, 09:55 AM
It got to the point where everywhere I looked there was a game used or autographed item.

Is there something wrong with this? :D

I am now at the point where many of the items in my collection are items I would not want to part with. Occasionally, I see something that I would want to trade/buy as an upgrade but for the most part am happy with what I have. The space for displaying is becoming an issue. With my walls covered in my "Man Room" there really is not much room for additional jerseys. I hate buying a game used piece and just have it hanging in my closet, so not really sure how I will approach this in the future. Any tips on displaying items?

As for mentioned earlier about the younger generation not getting into the collecting type of mind, I am not sure I agree. I am constantly surprised how many mid twenty collectors there are just in the Reds focus like myself, and even more surprised by some of the others posting on the board that are in their early teens. Probably stating the obvious but the economy is what is hurting the hobby right now. For a collector who is looking to purchase, it is a nice time to buy. I recently saw a jersey I was after and the guy stated he would end the auction for $650, but with how bidding has been going I figured I had a shot at the jersey for under $300 if I wait it out.

Hopefully the future will get turned around, but it will be interesting to see what the market is like with items pumped into at high rates. The one advantage I see to this is more and more items coming from players, agents, and big companies. Slowly see the diminish of "got it from a friend of the player".

Fnazxc0114
10-08-2010, 03:39 PM
The rangers probably have 300 jerseys in their team store. All stuff they probably wont ever sell at the prices they are asking. It might change if they make a good run this year, but there arent many collectors of rangers stuff. I can get bats and jerseys any day of the week, but gloves helmets and cleats are a different story.

legaleagle92481
10-08-2010, 04:14 PM
The rangers probably have 300 jerseys in their team store. All stuff they probably wont ever sell at the prices they are asking. It might change if they make a good run this year, but there arent many collectors of rangers stuff. I can get bats and jerseys any day of the week, but gloves helmets and cleats are a different story.

If they don't sell it what sweat off their brow? Unlike dealers they don't need to sell stuff to survive. Not that long ago a bat broke it went in the trash. Now it is pure greed on the part of the teams. If they win it all or even make the series or start doing well in the ALCS watch the prices rise and people lineup to buy it. I am a Jets fan and as a whole there are not that many of us who collect when compared to Big Blue and the Yanks. Last year JO had a glut of Jets jerseys on their site pretty much everyone not named Revis or Sanchez was available in multiples late in the year. Then Jets make their playoff run and right after they upset the Chargers wham JO increased the prices and stuff flew off the shelf in the week in between games. They didn't even make the Super Bowl just getting to AFC Championship Game was enough to create a run. The reason for the run was the investors came out thinking ok if they win Super Bowl I can flip this stuff for a huge profit and regular folk jumped on the bandwagon which happens to teams like that who have not won in decades. Same thing will happen to Rangers stuff.

yankees506
10-09-2010, 09:59 AM
I dont think you can compare gu and cards. You can make a million exact replicas of cardboard cards but you cannot make a million gu items. Not to say that the hobby has not been watered down by all the gu stuff out there but thats really out of the collectors hands. Honestly the "watering down" of the market has made me be able to acquire items i would have never thought id be able to own. I don't buy to sell, all the items i buy i know i will probably never get rid of. I dont spend big bucks on anything but "holy grail" type items anymore. It just seems as if "premium" items today wont be "premium" in a year or so, its sad but true. You mean to tell me an Albert Pujols bat is worth thousands of dollars? I think only a fool would spend his money that way, a piece of lumber is the same to me, granted the reason we buy things is because they where used by our favorite ball players but spending mortgage money on a bat seems crazy by any stretch of the word.

Mark17
10-11-2010, 01:02 PM
I think the GU market and what happened with baseball cards is a great analogy. When Topps and the other companies realized, in the mid-1980s, that they were basically able to print money, they kept the presses running full-time and cranked out tens of thousands of vending cases (12,000 cards per) and rack/wax cases, and then, "cut" cases, which were bulk cases of cards from certain sheets.

The rookie crop in 1987 was so strong, I heard rumors Topps was printing 1987 cards well into 1988. I don't know if that was true, but I was having no problem getting 1987 cut cases in 1988-1989. I don't blame Topps one bit, when they could convert maybe $20 of cheap paperboard, ink, and some labor into cases that sold for over $100 apiece and virtually unlimited demand, why not?

In 1985, Dwight Gooden's rookie card started off at $2.00. I was a full-time dealer then and my initial break was 300 vending cases, so I had and sold about 4500 Gooden cards at about that price. Later in the year I decided to buy some more vending cases to stash away for a few years, but when Gooden kept winning games (he went 24-4 with a 1.53 ERA that year,) I was basically forced to break them up, since I could sell that one card for $5.00 all day long, in 100-card lots. That meant the other 11,985 cards in each case were now half-price to me.

Imagine, a small stack of 100 mass-produced pieces of cheap cardboard, anything but "rare", with a picture of a guy's face on it, selling for $500. And as I was selling them, the presses kept on making more.

It's the same general thing now with GU, as I see it. No, they don't make millions of game jerseys and bats, but they do make and use many more than would be necessary. Remember the flannel days, when a player would typically have Set 1 and Set 2, home and road? 4-6 jerseys is all a player really needs each season.

Anyway, to complete the analogy, the speculation in the recent, mass-produced cards went up like a rocket ship, then plummeted back down, but the vintage stuff has remained strong, and that stuff has really increased in value over the years. I remember being at a show in CA, trading 1987 Topps Canseco and Joyner cards for 1960s commons (one Canseco/Joyner for 2 vintage commons) and looking back, I was trading junk worth pennies today (if there are even any buyers for 100-card lots of 1987 Topps Canseco or Joyner anymore) for cards that do have a legitimate scarcity factor, and sustaining value.

Anyway, my conclusion is that vintage GU is and always will be a good investment because it was not over-produced in the first place, and much of that stuff has been lost to time. I don't think there is a definite line, but to me, "vintage" in bats means pre-1977 and in jerseys it means flannel (pre- 1972, about.) Not saying there was mass over-production in the late 1970s, just saying that stuff approaching 50 years old is what I consider a solid collectible/investment.

I agree, collect what you like. But, be smart, no sense in spending top dollar for stuff that will inevitably come down in price; if that's what you want to collect, fine, but wait and buy later. If you're going after items that are truly scarce, still buy smart, but you can do so with a lot more confidence.

As always, just my opinion.

karamaxjoe
10-11-2010, 02:14 PM
"Anyway, my conclusion is that vintage GU is and always will be a good investment because it was not over-produced in the first place, and much of that stuff has been lost to time."

"I agree, collect what you like. But, be smart, no sense in spending top dollar for stuff that will inevitably come down in price."

Lot's of great analogies and quotes in that post. I fully agree with you and basically follow the first quote in my collecting world. I've always found acquiring a rare item is much more rewarding than something everyone else has. I wouldn't spend top dollar on nearly anything from the past 30 years and the past 10 years has seen a period of mass produced game used memorabilia flood the market. I doubt that trend will stop for a while since all the teams have found a way to make an extra buck on items they used to throw in the trash. The one thing we don't know yet is if the game used stuff from this era will hold its value. For the sake of most of the members on this board, I hope it does. You really have to be collecting for the love of the hobby to buy anything from the past 10 years.

beavisrules
10-11-2010, 03:44 PM
I think the analogy of GU memorabilia to baseball cards does have some merit. Certainly, the more game used jerseys released to the public, the more it drives down any perceived value. But there is one very big difference I think some of you may not have taken into account, and that is the intrinsic value of the GU item. For example, a baseball card modern day common is a worthless piece of cardboard. Took minimal amounts of money to create given the mass production of them. Ok, now take a Notre Dame game worn jersey - took more than pennies for Notre Dame to purchase the jersey in the first place, correct? So the actual jersey did require tangible money to produce and to purchase by the university. Now, let's say the average fan has a spot on his office wall that he wants to hang a jersey. He is not a game used collector per se, but just wants a jersey of his team, and wants a nice looking one, not a $20 replica. His options? Buy a retail authentic jersey from ebay or the bookstore for around $100-200, or buy a real game used one for a bit more. Which do you think he will go for if financial resources are not exceptionally tight? Right, the game used. THAT's one big difference between game used and baseball cards that can not be discounted, and that is why even modern game used jerseys will likely always retain value to some degree.

mdube16
10-11-2010, 04:21 PM
Its all about collecting what you love, not what its worth. Take a look at this collection. They are all "worthless" right?

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=639951&highlight_key=y&keyword1=sabo

Fnazxc0114
10-11-2010, 04:37 PM
Heck id be proud of that sabo collection. He pimped the two inch glasses before they were cool. Id take a will clark g/u bat over any of his baseball cards anyday. Heck id take a geno petralli g/u bat over one of his cards any day. Its all in what you like. If the market tanks on g/u like it did on the 80-90's baseball cards it only means theree will be more stuff for us collectors at rock bottum prices.

stlbats
10-11-2010, 05:28 PM
Even if someone doesn't collect for the value or worth of the items, no one really wants "worthless stuff". Yes I collect for the love of it, but I dont want to buy a fairly expensive item knowing that it is going to become less valuable. You never know when you might need to sell something. It is never good if something bottoms out. Look at Starting Lineup figures. They were huge and worth top dollar 10-15 years ago. Now you literally can not give them away. If GU items become worthless, a lot less people will want them anyway. Can you imagine if I couldnt even give away my photomatched Pujols bat?? That is scary.

Jason
stlbats@bellsouth.net

Mark17
10-11-2010, 06:44 PM
I think the analogy of GU memorabilia to baseball cards does have some merit. Certainly, the more game used jerseys released to the public, the more it drives down any perceived value. But there is one very big difference I think some of you may not have taken into account, and that is the intrinsic value of the GU item.

Good points, and I'll add another-- modern day GU stuff often comes with impeccable (MLB, team, Steiner, etc.) provenance. Having said that, I think modern GU stuff is really flooding the market, and will continue to do so.

Take your example of a GU jersey that cost $100 to manufacture. Depending on the player, the GU aspects might add $100 to $2,000 or more onto the price of it. What you now have to consider is this: What is the potential downside to all of that cost? The fact the jersey cost $100 to manufacture isn't necessarily a guaranteed floor... I've seen gamers offered in this forum for less than that amount. At least if you buy a rookie card for $5.00, that's the max you can lose.

The only thing resembling "intrinsic" value with a GU jersey is the fact that in a pinch, it could serve as clothing. Other than that, it's a wall display piece that may or may not have much demand down the line.

Going back to the card analogy, I remember when, after the 1987 Topps Bo Jacksons and Joyners and Cansecos and McGwires and Will Clarks brought over a dollar apiece in early 1987, Mike Greenwell cards rose to $2.00 each for awhile, then fell way off. Other cards rose and fell in that set: Kevin Mitchell, Andres Galarraga, Palmeiro, B.J. Surhoff, Devon White, Bobby Thigpen, and many others.

I don't collect modern GU stuff, but I'm curious... take a guy like Shannon Stewart. Would his Twins jersey from a few years ago sell for as much today as when it was in a pro shop back then? Or Twins shirts of Koskie, or Marty Cordova? These were all popular Twins in their day, but they played on mostly losing teams and are now nearly forgotten. If there are, say, 20 GU Koskie jerseys from each of the approximately 8 seasons he played in the majors, are there really 160 people out there who will pay over $100 to have one of his gamers hanging on their wall?

In the late 1980s, people thought they were "investing" in the players, sort of like buying stock in their success. Fans maybe didn't have an opinion how some company's performance was trending, but all of us like to think we can spot talent in each season's rookie crop. So, why buy 100 shares of a company (and how boring) when you can plunk down $75.00 and get a 500-count box of Mike Aldrete rookies, for example.

Problem was, most people didn't stop to think it through... Everyone assumed they could keep selling to other "investors" in quantity, BUT... what would the ultimate end-game look like? What purpose did it serve to have 500 identical cards of some player? Was the idea that, eventually, they would find 500 people who each wanted one of those cards, and would it be economically feasible to advertise and sell them like that?

With GU it's the same principle. Sure there are fewer jerseys than 1987 Topps cards, by far. But with the entry point being about $100 minimum, for a common, that reduces the number of potential collectors significantly. With cards, a parent could buy a Bo Jackson rookie card for a couple dollars as a Christmas stocking-stuffer. With GU jerseys, most kids can't even join the hobby unless it's to watch Dad collect stuff.