You think the yankees are the front runners in signing cliff lee?

[Fnazxc0114]

Lee's wife was spit upon, had beer thrown on her, and was cursed throughout the yankees series. We all know the yankees have some deep pockets, but i think the rangers have a lot of room in next years payroll to mmake a run at cliff. Plus the team is realy young and has a chance to be good for a long time.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Will-spitting-Yankee-fans-play-a-role-in-Cliff-L?urn=mlb-279919

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/rangers/2010-10-25-cliff-lee-rangers_N.htm

[LastingsMilledge85]

The first article I think is just ridiculous, if the Yankees were to sign Lee then do you think Mrs. Lee will be sitting with the crowd? Not a chance, she may even get her own luxury suite just for the sake of things. Personally, I think with Texas beating out the Yankees may play a large role come this off season, but you really never know with these things especially when the Yankees are involved. Sometimes players go for the money and the "pinstripes." There's just some players that "dig the pinstripes."

[Fnazxc0114]

From what my wife told me Misty Mae Treanor has pics on her facebook page of the fans spitting on them. What kind of person spits on and throws beer on a woman?

[eisenreich8]

From what my wife told me Misty Mae Treanor has pics on her facebook page of the fans spitting on them. What kind of person spits on and throws beer on a woman?

Oh, I dunno......Charlie Sheen........Mel Gibson.........Robert Blake.........Wil Cordero.........

[eisenreich8]

I would hope Cliff Lee and his family stick to their southern roots and help Nolan Ryan make the Rangers a future powerhouse. Lee's marquee value will be stellar if (or when) Texas wins the series. With The Rangers' new and improved baseball and marketing muscle, I can see Lee having a better and more lucrative career in Texas than in NY. I don't know for sure yea or nay but I hope he's not going to turn into a mercenary.

Fifty year drought for Texas and Cliff Lee could definitely see his name for now and for the longer term become somewhat legendary in Rangers lore.

[sox83cubs84]

Lee would be THE MAN in Texas, as opposed to being just another multi-millionaire moundsman in New York.

Dave Miedema

[LastingsMilledge85]

Lee would be THE MAN in Texas, as opposed to being just another multi-millionaire moundsman in New York.

Dave Miedema

Not at all, Texas is big just like New York and you got to consider some of those guys in Dallas where there is a team called the Cowboys. No matter what, the Rangers will never, ever be like what the Cowboys have built themselves up to be.

[Fnazxc0114]

They will never exceed the cowboys, which is bad because i could care less about them. If Cliff Lee helps bring the WS to texas i bet he could almost come close to nolan ryan status around the metroplex. With the way free agency is structured the yankess are going to do nothing but continue to get older.

[sox83cubs84]

Not at all, Texas is big just like New York and you got to consider some of those guys in Dallas where there is a team called the Cowboys. No matter what, the Rangers will never, ever be like what the Cowboys have built themselves up to be.

Read my post a little more closely. Lastings...the mention of "moundsman" indicates that I was referring to pitchers, not the entire scope of either city's professional sports teams.

Dave Miedema

[LastingsMilledge85]

Read my post a little more closely. Lastings...the mention of "moundsman" indicates that I was referring to pitchers, not the entire scope of either city's professional sports teams.

Dave Miedema

So pitchers have their own social demographic is what you are telling me? :rolleyes:

[Fnazxc0114]

Lasting no point in trying to start an argument. I failed out of the third grade and read Sox post as saying he would just be another 100 million dollar pitcher in NY.

[Fnazxc0114]

I think in NY they all belong to their own social demographic. Most of the guys on that team are 1/10 of top one percenters. Id wear the pinstripes for that kind of money.

[LastingsMilledge85]

Sorry, I failed with my baseball "slang" didn't realize moundsman was pitcher when the reference was made. Anyway, whatever he is coined doesn't matter because he is the same in Texas, as he is the same in New York and that's loaded. What matters, is that where he will in fact pitch come next season, right?

[Fnazxc0114]

I hope he's pitching here, but only time will tell. Either way i bet he waits a while to figure out what he wants to do. Not sure how long deer season lasts in arkansas lol

[legaleagle92481]

lee is going to the highest bidder. texas or yankees or some other team ir doesn't matter. the yanks have to be the favorites because they can outbid any team. this spitting incident means nothing just some guys having too much beer and acting rowdy defintely not enough to disaqualify a whole city and possibly leave millions on the table.

[Fnazxc0114]

the yankees have been outbid in the past. Either way it will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

[xpress34]

Just throwing my .02 out there, but Lee seems more like a guy who will weigh other intangibles into his decision and not just chase the money.

He has already voiced his displeasure with Philly for basically dumping him after their WS appearance as he would have liked to have stayed and had another shot with them, but they didn't even try to keep him. As soon as the Halladay deal was done, Philly basically kicked him to the curb and sent him to Seattle.

I think the Rangers WS appearance - particularly if they win - and the closeness to his home will weigh very heavily in the Rangers favor.

I don't know if it's just Yankees fans or a general statement from others, but what I'm reading here is that most people think it's all about the money. There are plenty of players who have played for less than they could have gotten elsewhere in order to gain peace of mind, closeness to family, etc - intangibles that can't be measured in $$$.

I know it doesn't happen often, but there are those guys whose care more about the situation - team chemistry, how the team treated them, etc - than the almighty dollar and as I stated above, I really think Cliff Lee is one of those people.

As far as Leagle's comments:


Lee is going to the highest bidder. The Yanks have to be the favorites because they can outbid any team. This spitting incident means nothing just some guys having too much beer and acting rowdy defintely not enough to disaqualify a whole city and possibly leave millions on the table.

I'm glad to know that you and so many others already have knowledge that Lee is just a 'Gun for Hire'. Also, I wouldn't be so fast to say the Yanks can outbid any team - Greenburg and Co have already said this isn't 'your father's Rangers' when it comes to Off Season bidding and he is a Billionaire as well.

Finally, if you don't think Cliff Lee's wife's impression of Yankee Stadium and it's fans will impact his (their) decision, you don't know anything about Southern women. We have a saying down south:

"If momma ain't happy - ain't NOBODY happy." I can't say 'absolutely', but I am fairly certain that HER thoughts will weigh in as much if not more than the $$$ when this deal goes down.

We can revisit this when the dust settles and it's all said and done in the off season.

- Smitty

P.S. - For those who don't know, Greenburg already fired the initial 'salvo' when he publicly stated that the Rangers are ready to start the bidding at $100,000,000.00.

[CollectGU]

Lee's wife was spit upon, had beer thrown on her, and was cursed throughout the yankees series. We all know the yankees have some deep pockets, but i think the rangers have a lot of room in next years payroll to mmake a run at cliff. Plus the team is realy young and has a chance to be good for a long time.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Will-spitting-Yankee-fans-play-a-role-in-Cliff-L?urn=mlb-279919

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/rangers/2010-10-25-cliff-lee-rangers_N.htm

$180 million contract will make her forget real quick. Either they will sign him or make Texas greatly over pay putting a drain on their finances...

Dave

[CollectGU]

Also, I wouldn't be so fast to say the Yanks can outbid any team - Greenburg and Co have already said this isn't 'your father's Rangers' when it comes to Off Season bidding and he is a Billionaire as well.



Just because he is a bllionaire doesn't mean he is willing to spend HIS money on Lee. If he operates within the Rangers revenue, they can't match the yankees. If he decides to operate at a deficit and spend his own money, then maybe, BUT very few owners are willing to risk their own finances or potentially losing the team like another billionaire, Tom Hicks.

Dave

[legaleagle92481]

Good point by CollectGU. The Steinbrenner family is defintely NOT the wealthiest ownership group in MLB but the team revenues are by far the highest year after year. Texas or any other team can't compete with them in that regard. The team practically prints money. Very, very few owners are willing to dip into their fortunes to pay player salaries. Keep in mind also that Lee is 33 next year and the last couple of years of a five or six year deal he could be a major payroll drain. Very few 37, 38, 39 year old starting pitchers are "aces" and the injury risk is very high. Look at Andy Petite he is 38 had a lights out first half got hurt in July and made three starts the rest of the year and in the playoffs his starts had to be pushed back due to new injuries. So this is not like when CC Sabathia became a free agent at 28 a couple of years ago and even then for such a young pitcher noone's offer came within tens of millions of the Yankees. If the Yankees go six years 180 million on Lee, would Texas or any other team make a comparable offer? In light of his age would it even be wise to?

In regard to new owners coming in with big talk look at Arte Moreno of the Angels. He has talked big alot over the years about how he is going to spend all this money on payroll, how great the team will be etc. and if you notice since he took over the team has actually slowly declined. They won a World Series under the prior group and after a few years of getting stuck in the LDS and LCS they didnt even make the playoffs this year. More importantly every time a decent player becomes a free agent on their team they don't resign him (Krod, Lackey, Tex, Figgins, Vlad, etc.), they waste money (Gary Matthews at 10 million a year) and buy low in trades for overrated pitchers (Saunders, Kazmir, etc.). But they always manage to get mentioned as a potential destination for the top free agents, those players just never go there and a better offer elsewhere is why. So until they actually put their money where their mouths are I would not look at it as anything but empty talk.

As far Lee not looking for just money. Hes human and noone leave millions on the table. Plus Sabathia is the highest paid pitcher, they are very close friends and don't think for a second he does not want to get close to or equal to him. The friendship is another factor favoring the Yankees. Mrs. Sabathia and Mrs. Lee are extremely close and their kids played together when they were both in Cleveland. Plus AJ Burnett and Lee are close and share an agent. So there are nonmonetary factors favoring New York as well.

[LastingsMilledge85]

xpress,

Not that he would even return to Philly, but they could of kept Lee and Halladay, but really couldn't. Yes, it sounds oxy-moronic but that really was the case. If they kept Lee than their farm system would of took a huge blow, and they would of had to maybe of traded Jayson Werth before the season started to free up salary because they really could not afford to maintain both pitchers. By moving Lee they replenish their farm system and free up salary. I don't know about you, but going into the 2010 season it would of been near impossible for me to let go of Werth after his 2009 season and not really having a formidable replacement to start the season in RF.

[cjclong]

If i had to chose between a rotation that started with Halladay and Lee or Weth in right field I would take Halladay and Lee in a heat beat.

[LastingsMilledge85]

If i had to chose between a rotation that started with Halladay and Lee or Weth in right field I would take Halladay and Lee in a heat beat.

Yeah, but the year Werth had in 2009, plus him becoming a huge fan favorite is tough to dispose of. Jayson Werth did not follow up his 2009 season so well, but was still a force and they just don't have an immediate answer if they were to let him go during the 2010 season. I guess they could of went after guys that had previous success, but maybe would consider lower price tags (Ankiel, Dye).The Phillies going into the 2010 season figured they had a solid rotation with Halladay, Hamels, Blanton, and Moyer/Happ/Kendrick. That's a formidable rotation, but unfortunately Blanton and Kendrick had a dreadful year, Moyer and Happ got injured, but pitched effectively when it was their days. Being in the NL East though I would have to take Halladay over Lee considering the lineups they would have to face more often because of the division.

[Neal]

From what I understand, Amaro was told that he can sign Halladay, but has to trade Lee. Halladay is a much better pitcher imo. It would have been nice to have Lee this past season, but that was silmply not going to happen. I have also heard that Lee was offered a deal, and basically was told that if he does not accept, they will trade for Halladay.

I am not so sure that either Werth or Lee will end up in NY. I think there is a small chance both return to Philadelphia, very slim.

[legaleagle92481]

The reason they got Halladay was because Lee said he was going to test free agency no matter what. Halladay wanted to pitch for a contender and was willing to forgo free agency to do so. Which he did when he signed an extension after the trade. To get Halladay cost them a haul in prospects. To keep both would have been cost prohibitive and they did not want to lose Lee for nothing at the end of the year so they saw the chance to upgrade their stable of prospects and save some money to use on a pitcher who would be there for a longer term which they got in Oswalt, who is signed for 2011. Werth did not have much trade value because some at the time felt 2009 was a fluke, he is over 30 and on a good time is the second or third best guy in a lineup. Plus he does not play a premium defensive position. They also thought at the time possibly that Werth would have not as good a year as 2009 and they would be able to lock him up. Lee had much more value hands down.

[Fnazxc0114]

What is the state income tax in NY and isnt there a city tax in NYC? In today's climate id think not having a state income tax in texas would allow ther rangers to offer less than the yankees. The rangers just signed a huge tv contract, and have a lot of room under what they project next years salaries to be. They realy dont have to worry about big contracts until 2012. Hamilton,cruz, wilson wont be free agents till after that season. still have andrus through 2014 etc. You could have put the rangers wifes in any section of yankee stadium and id gurarantee the same things would of happened. It wasnt a fluke what happened.

[Fnazxc0114]

Either way im glad the rangers have lee now. If anything us getting lee over the yankess shows how weak their minor league program is. The yankees gm is probablly the most overrated one in baseball.

[xpress34]

$180 million contract will make her forget real quick. Either they will sign him or make Texas greatly over pay putting a drain on their finances...

Dave

Dave -

As I said in my earlier diatribe, I personally don't think the money will be the major factor for Lee and his family. I may be wrong and only time will tell.

But, as I also said earlier - not in so many words - I love how everyone here thinks that every player and their families are driven by $$$.

I truly hope and believe that Cliff Lee will prove that to be wrong.

As far as the 'other considerations' in NYC brought up by other posters - CC and AJ and their wives - Lee's wife has already stated she really likes the are and the fact that they can be home in Arkansas by plane in 40 minutes. I guess we'll see if the old adage 'there's no place like home' rings true for the Lee's.

And Lee is playing now for a guy who did take less money for comfort - Nolan Ryan. When the Astros unceremoniously dumped him after 1988 (offered him 1/2 his current contract knowing he would walk) Nolan had no offers and went looking to play in Japan. The Rangers went to Japan and talked with him and signed him for a deal that YES, was better than the Astros, but was LESS than the Japanese team was offering for the chance to stay playing near home. Nolan has even said that the chance to be near his home and family was worth way more than the money.

Again, I guess we will all see and we can revisit this post AFTER the WS and AFTER November Deer Season in Arkansas when Cliff Lee decides to let us all know how he is leaning and where he will be signing.

All the best -

Smitty

[Fnazxc0114]

ther rangers did recently sign a realy nice tv contract. Should help with income and not be much of a strain on the payroll if they do sign lee.

[xpress34]

Okay, time to go turn on the tube and get ready for the Rangers 1st ever WS Game!!!!

[legaleagle92481]

The Ryan example does not compare because it was the major leagues vs. a totally different organization. Also Texas and NY are less than a four hour plane ride apart, Japan is on the other side of the world. You also have the language and cultural differences and the difficulty for family and friends to visit that factor into that equation. It will be interesting to see what he does. I am not a Yankee fan but living in NY I don't recall a situation of them ever losing out on a free agent that they "had" to have. And make no mistake they have to have him. The team is old. Posada, Petitie and Mariano are or are close to 40, Jeter is 37 next year, Arod 36 and all have shown signs of injury and/or decline. Even the "young" guys like Swisher and Tex are over 30. Cano and Gardner are the only regular position guys under 30. The rotation is a mess after CC. Burnett is awful, Hughes is inconsistent at best and Andy is aging and injury prone. They have no pitching prospects ready to step up. The bull pen besides Mariano stinks especially now that Kerry Wood will go elsewhere to close. If they don't get Lee they will be lucky to make the playoffs in 2011. No other trade target or free agent is comparable. Werth is a 30 plus guy who benefited from a hitter's park and a deep lineup who was awful until he became a Phillie. Crawford is a 29 year old speed guy, speed does not age well and at his peak he is a complimentary player rather than a star. Grienke may get traded but with his anxiety issues he would never make it in NY with the media and fans all over him and everything he does all the time. The rest of the trade and free agent guys are medicore at best. I hope he stays in Texas but I am just being realistic and I think in a month we will get to see the press conference that they all have where they don the pinstripes for the first time and wax poetic about how they always wanted to be a Yankee. And players leave "home" all the time to come to the Yankees Giambi did it and he had much greater ties to the As then Lee does to a team he has played a few months for.

As for the Greenberg fans the guy is a blowhard he invested two million in the team I read on SI.com. Yes two million. He somehow convinced them to make him the frontman and now he talks tough on other people's money.

The State income tax and City tax in NY is high totaled about 10% of a millionaire's income. But the media opportunities offset it.

[Gocong57]

The reason they got Halladay was because Lee said he was going to test free agency no matter what. Halladay wanted to pitch for a contender and was willing to forgo free agency to do so. Which he did when he signed an extension after the trade. To get Halladay cost them a haul in prospects. To keep both would have been cost prohibitive and they did not want to lose Lee for nothing at the end of the year so they saw the chance to upgrade their stable of prospects and save some money to use on a pitcher who would be there for a longer term which they got in Oswalt, who is signed for 2011. Werth did not have much trade value because some at the time felt 2009 was a fluke, he is over 30 and on a good time is the second or third best guy in a lineup. Plus he does not play a premium defensive position. They also thought at the time possibly that Werth would have not as good a year as 2009 and they would be able to lock him up. Lee had much more value hands down.

Cost prohibitive? This from a front office that extends Blanton 3 yrs/$24 mil and singles hitting Howard 5 yr/$125 mil, which contract hasn't even kicked yet?!? A stable of prospects where one ends up being arrested for coke possession?!? The Phils could've kept Lee for this season. Wouldn't have mattered anyways as the quickly-aged Phils' and their bats were D.O.A. during playoffs.

[Fnazxc0114]

Legal anybody with any common sense would know that ryan/greenberg dont have the type of money to buy the rangers. It just so happens they are the front men of the "group". When we talk up the owner should we talk about the group or the two guys who have been the face of the purchase since the beginning?

[CollectGU]

No one has even mentioned the fact that when you are a Yankee you have a legitimate shot to win a title every year. If Lee is not about only money, what about the consiistent, legitimate opportunity to win every year. That is huge for guys like Lee who are getting older and want to attain what almost all players feel is the ultimate goal - a ring. The Rangers can't offer that. Recent history shows the team to be inconsistent, 2001 - 2003 horrible, 2004 made a run, 2005 - 2008 horrible sub .500 baseball, 2009-10 - good run. It's a crap shoot with them

Dave

[legaleagle92481]

Legal anybody with any common sense would know that ryan/greenberg dont have the type of money to buy the rangers. It just so happens they are the front men of the "group". When we talk up the owner should we talk about the group or the two guys who have been the face of the purchase since the beginning?

Well my point was he is making all these claims but he doesn't have the cash to back them up. He can't just make Lee an offer of x for x he has to get approval from the guys actually spending the money and it is not a given they will give it.

[Fnazxc0114]

Hey i hate to break the news to you but the yankees only have one more ws ring than the rangers do in the last decade. The idea that they have a shot every year is going down by the year. It will be hard to win a ws if that team doesnt get any younger.


No one has even mentioned the fact that when you are a Yankee you have a legitimate shot to win a title every year. If Lee is not about only money, what about the consiistent, legitimate opportunity to win every year. That is huge for guys like Lee who are getting older and want to attain what almost all players feel is the ultimate goal - a ring. The Rangers can't offer that. Recent history shows the team to be inconsistent, 2001 - 2003 horrible, 2004 made a run, 2005 - 2008 horrible sub .500 baseball, 2009-10 - good run. It's a crap shoot with them

Dave

[ferro39]

disagree.

they do have a shot every year because they make the postseason just about every year. what happens after that is a crap shoot as we saw this year with both the yanks and philly, which was everyone's favorite. the last time the same could be said about a team was the 90s with atlanta. the same cant be said for any other team this past decade.

and as a fan, im not overly worried about them getting younger. montero is pushing hard and will replace jorge, while arod will be a FT DH in a couple of years (also replaced by a younger player). the only one who will linger will be jeter.

let's call a spade a spade too: they can very easily go younger by way of their own prospects and FA

[CollectGU]

Hey i hate to break the news to you but the yankees only have one more ws ring than the rangers do in the last decade. The idea that they have a shot every year is going down by the year. It will be hard to win a ws if that team doesnt get any younger.

1995 thru 2010 - 15 playoff appearances, 5 world series rings.... If you play for the Yankees you have a much greater chance of winning a ring, and players know this. So if they really want you, they will likely give you the largest contract and the best chance at winning a ring.....

Dave

[Bondsgloves]

The Yankees should win the World Series every year, they spend twice as much as everyone else. When you can buy the best free agent year, you should win. Basically they have been underachieving. Yankee's promote themselves as the greatest franchise and a wining tradition, but if any other team spent that kind of money they would be in playoffs every year to. Fans either love them or hate them, because of the advantage of buying championships. Really how hard is it to be Yankee fan when you can buy whatever you want and need? If you can't beat them join them... Clemens, A-rod, Wade Boggs, etc... They took the easy road to a ring..

[xpress34]

The Yankees should win the World Series every year, they spend twice as much as everyone else. When you can buy the best free agent year, you should win. Basically they have been underachieving. Yankee's promote themselves as the greatest franchise and a wining tradition, but if any other team spent that kind of money they would be in playoffs every year to. Fans either love them or hate them, because of the advantage of buying championships. Really how hard is it to be Yankee fan when you can buy whatever you want and need? If you can't beat them join them... Clemens, A-rod, Wade Boggs, etc... They took the easy road to a ring..

The reason they don't win every year is stated well in your post Bondsgloves. They BUY thier teams - they don't BUILD them. Therefore, their is little to NO Team Chemistry because outside of the 'Core Four' as they call them - Jeter, A$$Roid, Posada, Rivera) bo one else knows if they will be there next year regardless of their contract.

They have become a team of 'Mercenary Players' or 'Guns for Hire' and while that might get you to the playoffs every year, the Post Season usually seems to go to the teams who are a UNIT.

The Yankees were that 1996-2000 and then they became the Team that would pay any amount for the biggest Free Agent name just because they could. And ONE (1) WS Championship since then shows that the formula doesn't always work.

The 1996-2000 teams were BUILT by the Yankees through Farm Teams and Trades - not buying th biggest Free Agent name. When they dismantled after the 2001 WS loss the Arizona, they have NEVER been the same.

- Smitty

[LastingsMilledge85]

Take a look at the Cubs every year, they are basically the poor man's Yankees. Each year they buy top guys on the free agent market because they have one outstanding season, and then don't fulfill the outrageous contracts the Cubs give them.

[Bondsgloves]

Xpress I agree with you 100%, but having an unlimited payroll is deffinetly a major advantage. I agree you can't put a value on chemistry look at the Giants and Rangers, they are not the best teams on paper... butthey are making it work. I can't csee a comparison however between the cubs and yankees. The Yankees spending is on a entirely different level.

[xpress34]

I agree you can't put a value on chemistry look at the Giants and Rangers, they are not the best teams on paper... butthey are making it work.

Exactly. Look at the Rockies of 2007 - they were one of the lowest payrolls in MLB, but they believed in each other and had that miraculous run at the end because they knew the name on the front of the jersey was way more important than the one on the back. They are a prime example of true team chemistry and a team that helped each other out every way they could.

- Smitty

[CollectGU]

They have become a team of 'Mercenary Players' or 'Guns for Hire' and while that might get you to the playoffs every year, the Post Season usually seems to go to the teams who are a UNIT..




Come on this is all one big cliche = they play as a unit, unselfish, blah blah blah. All teams that make the playoffs have talent, and all teams ngo through hitting and pitching droughts. Mostly the teams that win are the ones that peak at the right time and don't go into the slumps.

Also, there are a ton of Rangers not homegrown!: Lee, Hamilton , Guerrero, David Murphy, Cruz, Molina...Give me a break, let's be real here!

Dave

[ferro39]

The reason they don't win every year is stated well in your post Bondsgloves. They BUY thier teams - they don't BUILD them. Therefore, their is little to NO Team Chemistry because outside of the 'Core Four' as they call them - Jeter, A$$Roid, Posada, Rivera) bo one else knows if they will be there next year regardless of their contract.

that simply isnt true. guys like swisher, burnett and even hinske injected new life into the team last year and are/were VERY well liked. they were extremely tight and anyone who watches the team on a regular basis knows this. in fact, id even venture to say that 2009 was the closest the team has been since the torre teams of the mid-late 1990s.

contrary to popular belief (among non yankee fans), it's not always about throwing the most money at the FAs they covet. cashman generally know very well who the good dressing room guys are

[xpress34]

contrary to popular belief (among non yankee fans), it's not always about throwing the most money at the FAs they covet. cashman generally know very well who the good dressing room guys are

So then I guess you are saying that all of the guys here who have stated as FACT that Lee will be a Yankee because the Yankees can and will outbid everyone for the players they want aren't real Yankees fans?

[xpress34]

Come on this is all one big cliche = they play as a unit, unselfish, blah blah blah. All teams that make the playoffs have talent, and all teams ngo through hitting and pitching droughts. Mostly the teams that win are the ones that peak at the right time and don't go into the slumps.

Also, there are a ton of Rangers not homegrown!: Lee, Hamilton , Guerrero, David Murphy, Cruz, Molina...Give me a break, let's be real here!

Dave

Dave -

Big difference here. I'm not saying that you can't trade for guys and build a strong unit - in fact I even made the trade argument :


The 1996-2000 teams were BUILT by the Yankees through Farm Teams and Trades - not buying th biggest Free Agent name. When they dismantled after the 2001 WS loss the Arizona, they have NEVER been the same.

I'm not talking about completely or mostly home grown teams like the Rockies (outside of Giambi and Cargo the rest of the core are homegrown) and I never said that.

I'm talking about teams like the Yankees since 2001 that have (for the most part) been built by BUYING the current HOT Model from the end of the previous season - and they have ONE WS Ring for all of that money they have paid out. In the same span, Boston has TWO WS Rings and since they disbanded some of their core guys from '04 and '07, they haven't looked quite the same while following the Yankees and throwing money at FAs.

So, yes I am being REAL here.

- Smitty

[ferro39]

So then I guess you are saying that all of the guys here who have stated as FACT that Lee will be a Yankee because the Yankees can and will outbid everyone for the players they want aren't real Yankees fans?


where did i say that? i didnt even mention cliff lee

you said that the yankees have no team chemistry outside of the core 4 and that they yankees are basically guns for hire instead of a "team." i said that you're wrong

regardless of the sport, a lot of different things have to fall into place in order to win a championship: good management, good players, good coaching, intangibles and getting hot at the right time. you basically need to catch lightning in a bottle. of course it's not as easy as signing the best and most expensive players. that's nothing earth shattering.

all of that said, i think that cashman does an above average job of trying to get all of the pieces to fall into place. he addresses glaring needs by spending money and tries to work outward from there with character guys

the giants are proving that it can be done without the top-tier talent, but how often does a team like that come along? if you're a GM and you have the resources (a la cashman), you spend! there's absolutely nothing noble about hoarding money and trying to build a team from the ground up because you will fail more times than not....not to mention the backlash from the fans who drop big bucks on the team.

[legaleagle92481]

where did i say that? i didnt even mention cliff lee

you said that the yankees have no team chemistry outside of the core 4 and that they yankees are basically guns for hire instead of a "team." i said that you're wrong

regardless of the sport, a lot of different things have to fall into place in order to win a championship: good management, good players, good coaching, intangibles and getting hot at the right time. you basically need to catch lightning in a bottle. of course it's not as easy as signing the best and most expensive players. that's nothing earth shattering.

all of that said, i think that cashman does an above average job of trying to get all of the pieces to fall into place. he addresses glaring needs by spending money and tries to work outward from there with character guys

the giants are proving that it can be done without the top-tier talent, but how often does a team like that come along? if you're a GM and you have the resources (a la cashman), you spend! there's absolutely nothing noble about hoarding money and trying to build a team from the ground up because you will fail more times than not....not to mention the backlash from the fans who drop big bucks on the team.

The Giants do have top tier talent that is the misconception about this postseason. I am not a west coaster or a Giants fan but looking at it objectively all factors considered i.e. quality of offense supporting them, they have the best pitcher in baseball and a guy who is in the top ten along with the best closer not named Mariano and their third starter would be the ace of all but a few teams. Pitching wins in the postseason always has always will. Add in a young catcher that hits like a first baseman who in a couple of years will leave Joe Mauer in the dust, a big year from a veteran like Huff and a timely hot streak from others like Ross and you have a champ. It reminds me of the 2001 Dbacks.

[cjclong]

I guess its fun to speculate where Lee will go, but this is just speculation. A lot of players are motivated by money and simply go where they will get the most. Others, once they reach a certain salary level are motivated by things other than money. Once a player is being paid 8 or 10 million dollars a year any money over that is sort of like putting sugar on ice cream. That is substantially more in one year than most well paid wage earners will make in their entire life. If the Yankees offer Lee the most money and that is the consideration along with the prestige and publicity of playing in New York he may well go there. If he decides that being close to his home in Arkansas where his young son lives who nearly died from cancer before he was cured he may stay in Texas. Only he knows, not us.

[ferro39]

not to discredit tim lincecum, but he was far from the best pitcher in baseball this year and certainly hasnt been close in the postseason either

him and wilson are legit, and cain and sanchez are good, but again arent top-flight talent. the giants have some very good players, but they are with the exception of posey, what we see is what we'll get with most of them

i love the way the giants are built and are hoping they can pull i out, but looking at things "objectively," i think that there are some non-playoff teams with more pure talent on their rosters than the giants

[Bondsgloves]

You are right-- he only beat Lowe, Holliday, and Cliff Lee. He also had a 15k game to open the playoffs. Cain only has a 0 ERA in the playoffs and was an Allstar a year ago. Giants outpitched the best pitchers in the game Oswalt, Hamels, Holliday, Cliff Lee, Lowe, etc..

[ferro39]

what point are you arguing?

you think that lincecum was the best pitcher in the league this season or do you think that the giants roster is chock full of super star talent?

[Bondsgloves]

You said Lincecum was far from the best pitcher in the post season this year. Not saying he's the best but he has beat everyone you could possibly think is better. He had 15k's vs the braves possibly the most dominating performance of any pitcher in the post season this year. He also led the league in strikeouts.. So what's your point. How can you say there are non playoff teams with more talent.. They have probably most talented Pitching staff in baseball

You said Cain and Sanchez are not top flight pitchers... are you kidding me... Cain and Sanchez are better than most Ace's in the league. Cain has had a great year check out his ERA. Sanchez carried the Giants down the stretch..

You must not have followed the Giants much this year if you think they don't have the top or one of top rotations in baseball.

[ferro39]

1. i do think that SF has one of the best staffs (in the majors actually).

2. regular season wise, i dont think that lincecum was anywhere near the best pitcher in the majors, which was actually the original point that was made. strikeouts mean little to me. ERA/WHIP wise, it was actually his worst season in a few years. i mean, wasnt his ERA around 3.5? and only because he finished off hot. iirc, he was actually pushing 4 for a while.

3. outside of his first start in the ALDS, he hasnt been his usual dominating self, imo...and having just looked at his stat lines, that's confirmed. yes, he beat cliff lee. i could have also beat cliff lee on wednesday, so color me not impressed.

4. i think cain and sanchez are very, very good pitchers, but i dont view them as staff aces anywhere--except for maybe on a middle of the pack pitching team. i also watched enough of the giants to know that that win totals are misleading they dont get any run support (especially sanchez). that said, i still dont view them as anchors the way i view lincecum.

cain has it in him, but i dont believe that he's there quite yet. if he continues next season where he leaves off this season, then yeah i would consider him a bonafide ace.

sanchez has ridiculous stuff too, but this really is the first year he's been able to put it all together. i guess we'll also know more about him next year, too

[Fnazxc0114]

The best pitcher in the post season so far has been matt cain. He shut the rangers down last night, and hasnt given up a earned run in the playoffs. As far as lincecum i doubt he put the fear in the rangers hitters, cain on the other hand he pitched his butt off.