MEARS Mumbo-Jumbo?

[aeneas01]

some members may already know that mears recently got their hands on an odd "maravich warm up jacket" that sold on ebay for $199 - apparently mears made the seller an after-auction offer she couldn't refuse much to the dismay of the actual auction winner (who promptly lodged a complaint).

anyway, once mears took ownership of the jacket they wasted no time listing it in their current auction as a "1974 Pete Maravich Inaugural Season New Orleans Jazz Game Worn Warm Up Jacket". further, while mears was at it, they went ahead and wrote a letter on the thing giving it a "final grade" of "mears authentic" despite the fact that they admitted to not being able to find any evidence whatsoever that marivich (or any other new orleans jazz player for that matter) ever wore such a warm up jacket.

as to the mumbo-jumbo, here is what mears has included in their item description:

"At this time, MEARS was not able to find a photo of Maravich wearing this exact jacket. Additionally, we could find NO image of an early 1974 Jazz jacket worn by ANY player... Although unsuccessful in our attempts to find an exact photo match, what the above (research) did provide us was style matches of Jackets worn by the Jazz from 1975-78. This did not match any of those styles. So with the Sand Knit tag dating ending in 1974 and no early 1974 images found of any Jazz player wearing a warm-up jacket, we are confident in our 1974 dating."

can any forum member tell me what on earth this means? further, does any forum member believe that this mumbo-jumbo supports mears' claim that this "maravich" jacket is "game worn" or "authentic"?

mears goes onto to say that, for purposes of comparison and authentication, they have also examined the following "sand Knit products worn during the mid 1970s": 1975 bulls sloan, 1975 bulls pondexter, 1970s celtics havlicek and 1975 jazz maravich. but what mears suspiciously fails to mention is that all of these items have something in common that the maravich doesn't: team exclusivity tags. i mean are you kidding me? good grief.

heck, this is so reminiscent of the jim brown "gamer" which mears owned, which they awarded an a10, even though it was never fitted with the all-important blepp-coombs tag - something which mears failed to mention at that time as well. correct me if i'm wrong, but shouldn't one of the most important jobs mears performs during their authentication process be to ensure that, at the very least, tagging is correct and consistent with other known exemplars from the era in question?

here's a look at some other warm up jackets from the same era as the "maravich" jacket - they all have the same sand-knit style tagging as the "maravich" but they also all have team exclusivity tags as well (interestingly, bushing was involved in the evaluation of several of the following items):


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/z06-2.jpg


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/z02-8.jpg


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/z03-6.jpg


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/z04-6.jpg


here's a maravich new orleans jazz game worn jersey that sold at auction which is from the same period as the "maravich" jacket - yet unlike the "maravich" jacket, the jersey has a team exclusivity tag (from the lot description: Both a "Sand-Knit 44" label and Sand-Knit exclusivity label are located on the left front tail.):


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/zz00.jpg


and here are some other game worn items from the same era, all with team exclusivity tags (note: a few of the following items have what may be transitional sand-knit tagging from the era in question):


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/zz01-2.jpg


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/zz02-2.jpg


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/z07-1.jpg


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/zz04-2.jpg


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/z08-1.jpg


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/z05-5.jpg


so what does mears have on their hands? mears has admitted they can find no evidence whatsoever that any jazz player ever wore such a jacket. further, the lack of a team exclusivity tagging casts extreme doubt on its authenticity. yet mears has given it a thumbs up, has written an loa for it, and claims that it's an authentic gamer. could the sky-high prices maravich items have fetched recently have anything to do with this?

sand-knit obviously manufactured authentic garments for retail sale (the recent jack lambert jersey is a good example). sand-knit obviously also made salesman samples. this "maravich" jacket could easily be such an item, even probable, given the lack of team exclusivity tagging that was prevalent during that era.

whatever the case, the fact that mears clearly made no mention of the lack of team exclusivity tagging, especially considering this tagging was present on all of the exemplars they claimed to have referenced in their lot description, makes this whole thing smack of something far from above board. mears is supposed to be the good guys, the guys that are transparent, the guys that help collectors, not the guys that take collectors for a ride.

[otismalibu]

Robert,

You clearly have an axe to grind with MEARS :)

A picture is worth a thousand words. Obviously, no picture. Maybe more than a thousand words.

The next auction house to cut & paste Wiki for their item description should be publicly caned.

This is my favorite part.

Although unsuccessful in our attempts to find an exact photo match, what the above (research) did provide us was style matches of Jackets worn by the Jazz from 1975-78.

Read that 3 times and you'll suffer a Percy Harvin. So they style matched it to something that doesn't match. Brilliant!

Somewhere, Lou Lampson is laughing so hard, he just blew a seam out of his plaid shirt. A shirt, I might ad, that I've style matched to one that Sean Connery wore during an ET interview in 1986. Thus making Lou Lampson, everyone's favorite James Bond.

[aeneas01]

Robert, You clearly have an axe to grind with MEARS :)

actually, i really don't have a beef with the guys at mears - in fact i like dave grob quite a bit (even tho i'm sure i make it pretty tough for him to feel the same about me!), the work, effort and info he puts into his articles is just first-rate. but when i come across something like this, it's just too hard to ignore!

as far as their style-match claims are concerned, it would be interesting to see what they came up with given some of their other style-match work (the portland beavers shirt comes to mind (the collar wasn't even close), some of their barry bonds style-matches also come to mind (claimed that a butterfly cut was a match even tho barry sported set-in sleeves), etc.). can't begin to imagine what their idea of a style-match to this jacket might be....

fwiw, here's their maravich jacket sans a team exclusivity tag:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/z00-2.jpg

...

[otismalibu]

actually, i really don't have a beef with the guys at mears

I was quoting another board member, from another thread. :)

[Jags Fan Dan]

I won a 1994 Packers jersey from Mears and the "style matches" they sent to me with the jersey were all from 1993 when the Packers wore their own franchise 75th anniversary patches, versus the NFL 75th patch on the 1994 jersey.

[33bird]

I could be wrong, but I highly doubt Dave Grob had anything to do with this Maravich jacket. I think he sticks to baseball. My guess is this is their other guys.

[cohibasmoker]

Here's the link to the original auction and seller feedback. Seems the Seller didn't honor the sale.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150494942158&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_500wt_966

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=betsha1917&ftab=AllFeedback&sspagename=VIP:feedback

Jim

[otismalibu]

decided not to honor final bid, raw deal!!! Buyer: bkbnts (413) Oct-20-10 13:20

Reply by betsha1917 (Oct-25-10 19:29):
Item was not what it seemed. Didn't want to send you something listed wrong.


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_X0mA1rt-8_c/SZgqTteqwmI/AAAAAAAAAQo/Y59VsVd67Qc/s400/bullshit.jpg

[CollectGU]

Here's the link to the original auction and seller feedback. Seems the Seller didn't honor the sale.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150494942158&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_500wt_966

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=betsha1917&ftab=AllFeedback&sspagename=VIP:feedback

Jim


It says in ther description that it is from the collection of a MEARS staffer so it is likely that one of the MEARS staff offered more than $200 final bid from ebay after the auction ended. I wonder what staff member and what they paid for the jersey to make the owner refuse to sell it to the ebay winner.

Dave

[BU54CB]

I'm curious how it was listed wrong or the item wasn't "as it seemed."

[platinum1]

I'm curious how it was listed wrong or the item wasn't "as it seemed."

If I was the original person that bought this jersey on eBay, I would wait for the final price on the auction and unleash my lawyers on them and see if it's true that the jersey was purchased outside of eBay. Because then both the seller and Mears should be banned from eBay.

[aeneas01]

I won a 1994 Packers jersey from Mears and the "style matches" they sent to me with the jersey were all from 1993 when the Packers wore their own franchise 75th anniversary patches, versus the NFL 75th patch on the 1994 jersey.

mears' has a history of claiming "stlye-matches" on their worksheets which are nothing of the sort - and they've blamed interns, new employees, and a lack of of proper training for these issues. nonetheless the problems continue and, unfortunately, it appears that Mears continues to sign these worksheets which presumably means that they have reviewed and approved their content.


I could be wrong, but I highly doubt Dave Grob had anything to do with this Maravich jacket. I think he sticks to baseball. My guess is this is their other guys.

from what i understand, mears ended up purchasing the jacket for $4k. as to the mears lot writeup on the thing, it doesn't appear to be grob's work. here's the thing - mears has such a bad history of purchasing "fringe" items and turning them into "valuable, authentic gamers" by virtue of writing a letter and slapping a grade on them. the jim brown jersey comes immediately to mind, so does the bart starr jersey, and this "maravich" mess is just the latest example.

mears rejects items submitted to them for authentication all of the time, mears stamps and records them as unable to authenticate. yet when these items are owned by mears, they somehow seem to get the benefiit of the doubt plus a mears letter and a grade - even when style-match proof can't be found, even when photo proof can't be found and even when tagging is not at all consistent with known exemplars. mears has developed a history of rejecting submitted items based on criteria which apparently does not apply to their own items - the inherent problems with this practice are quite obvious.

here's mears' mission statement:

----------

Our mission at MEARS is simple…to provide the hobby with unparalleled evaluation and research services resulting in both informed and empowered collectors. How do we measure success? It won't be measured on the accounts we have, but rather if what we're doing counts when it comes to collector confidence in making informed purchase decisions.

-------------

mears' doesn't once mention in their "maravich" lot description that the jacket is missing team exclusivity tagging which not only was the norm during the era in question but also something that all of the exemplars they referenced included. nor did mears once mention in their jim brown loa that the jersey was missing the very important blepp-coombs tagging common to cleveland browns jerseys of that era. so how do these omissions aide the collector "... in making informed decisions" per their mission statement? they don't - in fact these omissions come across as a con job.

...

[LWMM]

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=10241


Is this MEARS post still around? I remember reading it at the time, and I'm sure that it would be interesting to look over again, all things considered.

[aeneas01]

Is this MEARS post still around? I remember reading it at the time, and I'm sure that it would be interesting to look over again, all things considered.

as mears' policy guy, dave grob has lobbied for a lot of good things that would make sports memorabilia collecting a much safer, enjoyable experience. but unfortunately his efforts have often gone ignored, even by mears. for example, dave has publicly voiced his dissatisfaction with mears' continuing (and deceptive) practice of referring to their a5 graded items as "game used". in fact dave posted an article on mears' site some time back about this very topic which in part read:

"If an (A5) jersey could in fact be one such offering as an extra or one manufactured for promotional sale or distribution and the use and wear only noted and not attributed, then describing it in a generic title listing as “game used” is not consistent with the language or logic of the A5 grade. I have made my feelings known to Troy in this matter and have suggested that these items be listed without this language in the title."

yet despite dave's rational and responsible recommendation, mears continues to describe a5 items as "game used" and has ignored dave completely in this matter.

as such one has to wonder what else mears has chosen to ignore. for example, are any mears' employees or friends of employees engaged in bidding up items listed in mears' auctions? did any of the bids currently showing for the "maravich" jacket come from anyone associated with mears? are mears employees actively purchasing items, even suspect items, and then writing their own lot descriptions for these items while also awarding them grades? if so, not a very comforting prospect.

...

[sox83cubs84]

I'm not speaking about this item, per se, but when I was employed there, it was fairly normal to grade a warmup top or jacket as "authentic" rather than provide it a numeric grade.

Dave Miedema

[aeneas01]

I'm not speaking about this item, per se, but when I was employed there, it was fairly normal to grade a warmup top or jacket as "authentic" rather than provide it a numeric grade.

when you worked for mears was it also normal to grade an item as "authentic" even though no supporting evidence could be provided? even though no photos or exemplars matching the tagging could be provided?

this isn't a flip question - i'm wondering if perhaps mears reserves "authentic" grades for sketchy items while awarding numerical grades to items that can be conclusively matched, which seems to be the case with the following warm-up from the exact same period which mears graded an a-9.5:


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/1970-197301.jpg


whatever the case, mears claiming that the "maravich" jacket is an authentic gamer is just plain wrong and downright embarrassing. it smacks of "we've gotten away with it before so why not continue to do it." heck it could even be legitimately argued that the tagging style isn't conclusively from new orleans' inaugural season despite mears' claim to the contrary.

perhaps an "authentic" grade equates to the same nonsense as an a-5? if not, then why didn't mears give the "maravich" jacket a numerical grade as they did the sloan? just a ridiculous mess with one aim in mind - to imply authenticity in the item when so such authenticity exists. shame.

...

[sox83cubs84]

aeneas:

There were items authenticated and graded without style/photo matches, but this normally was limited to low-end items...I don't recall anything the magnitude of the Maravich ever receiving such treatment.

Dave Miedema

[aeneas01]

aeneas: There were items authenticated and graded without style/photo matches, but this normally was limited to low-end items...I don't recall anything the magnitude of the Maravich ever receiving such treatment.

low-end items were authenticated without the benefit of style/photo matches? that's comforting. but i guess it's one way to boost the value of low-end items....

fwiw, mears has obviously become aware of this thread given that at the end of the "maravich" lot description the following has been added:

"For a matter of record, NBA items were often found with an "Exclusively Tailored For Tag." We have examined similar period NBA jersey from the same team that was found both with and without this tagging. We have one late 1970s example of an actual Jazz jersey found without the Exclusive tag."

unfortunately, but not surprisingly, this addendum is more mears double-talk and ultimately dishonest. mears states that they know of a LATE 70s example without an exclusivity tag. so what, i know of many LATE 70s examples without exclusivity tagging. but we're not talking about LATE 70s garments are we? we're talking about a garment mears claims is from the 1974/75 season. as such, what in the heck do LATE 70s exemplars have to do with the discussion?

fwiw, it's not uncommon to find LATE 70s sand-knit garments without exclusivity tagging nor is it uncommon to find LATE 70s garments without sporting goods tagging. but again, we're talking about a sand-knit garment that's supposed to from the mid 70s (not the LATE 70s) which, as was then the norm, included team exclusivity tagging. in fact every period-relevant exemplar mears said they used as a reference is fitted with team exclusivity tagging. so what's with this "LATE 70s" nonsense? how about this: let's see how many sand-knit gamers from the period in question, not the LATE 70s, mears can scare up without team exclusivity tagging.

btw, if mears honestly believes that this jacket is authentic then what does that say about mears' values and ethics as a company? and how does mears square this with their claim that they are in business to empower and educate collectors? i mean offering someone $4k for an item and then turning around and listing it as something worth "an estimated value of $20k+" doesn't exactly strike me as much of an education - perhaps it's a tough love type of thing?

anyway, as i mentioned before, it's just shameful that mears would grade this thing as "authentic" and then claim it's value is in excess of $20k given that mears clearly knows that garments from this era were fitted with team exclusivity tagging. it's even more shameful when one considers that mears has also admitted that they can find absolutely no proof whatsoever that any jazz player, let alone maravich, ever wore such a jacket.


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/q11.jpg


btw mears said that they style-matched the maravich jacket back lettering to a pondexter exemplar (of course the pondexter jacket has a team exclusivity tag, go figure). anyway, here they are side by side - does this strike anyone as a style-match?

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/zcomp.jpg

...

[Sonny25]

I'm at a loss for words.

[both-teams-played-hard]

Some sort of style-match of any Jazz player wearing this style would be nice. MEARS hurried this warm-up to auction in about a week (an important piece like this needs more research and evaluation).
Sniping this jersey AFTER the auction ended is troubling, but has nothing to do with authenticity(doesn't speak well to "helping the hobby").
I have seen Sand-Knit jerseys from the late 60s to the late 80s without the exclusive tag:
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/1228/kareembucks2.jpg

By no means does this Kareem/Lew photo have anything to do with the legitimacy of the Maravich. This Milwaukee jersey may very well be a salesman sample/proto-type (the background is unknown). It is without the exclusive tag.

[legaleagle92481]

Wow. Nice job Robert. Just goes to show 3rd party authentication is a total waste.

[CollectGU]

I emailed the seller for some info and this is what they replied, guilty of something, hysterical!:

User details:From User:betsha1917 (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e12050.m66.l1181/7?euid=59458c8f3ba34263b6e97874de338fba&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fmyworld.ebay.com%2Fbetsha1917%3Fs sPageName%3DADME%3AX%3ACEM%3AUS%3A1181) (3133 (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e12050.m66.l1183/7?euid=59458c8f3ba34263b6e97874de338fba&loc=http%3A%2F%2Ffeedback.ebay.com%2Fws%2FeBayISAP I.dll%3FViewFeedback%26%26userid%3Dbetsha1917%26ss PageName%3DADME%3AX%3ACEM%3AUS%3A1183)http://p.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/iconRedStar_25x25.gif)98.7% Positive FeedbackMember since Feb-07-02 in United StatesLocation: OH, United StatesActivity with betsha1917 (last 90 days): I have bid on 0 items from betsha1917
Activity with betsha1917 (last 90 days): betsha1917 has bid on 0 of my items




Dear ,

The jacket I had turned out to be a fake. Not mine.

- betsha1917
Click "respond" to reply through Messages, or go to your email to reply http://q.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gifhttp://p.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/buttons/btnRespond.gif (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e12050.m44.l1159/7?euid=59458c8f3ba34263b6e97874de338fba&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fcontact.ebay.com%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI .dll%3FM2MContact%26requested%3Dbetsha1917%26qid%3 D55815058012%26redirect%3D0%26ssPageName%3DADME%3A X%3ACEM%3AUS%3A1159)





From:
To: betsha1917
Subject: has sent a message
Sent Date: Oct-29-10 10:35:29 PDT










Dear betsha1917,

I was curious who you ended up selling the maravich jacket to. They own a sports auction house where the bid is currently 2,600 dollars on it. I'm curious if they bought it directly from you and what they paid

[aeneas01]

By no means does this Kareem/Lew photo have anything to do with the legitimacy of the Maravich. This Milwaukee jersey may very well be a salesman sample/proto-type (the background is unknown). It is without the exclusive tag.

first, beautiful shot of lew - i just can't get enough of clear, vintage photos. second, sand-knit made that shirt for lew's 04/69 nba draft photo ops, they also made it in white. anyway, these shirts were made long before the bucks' 1969/1970 gamers were ordered... here's another draft shot of lew posing with the shirt:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/q01-1.jpg

did lew ever wear these draft shirts in a game, 6 months later when the 1969/70 season began? or did he give them away to friends/family knowing that gamers (most likely with team tagging) would be ordered for him? who knows? btw i really like your site, just first-rate. i especially like your photo archives and tagging history sections (however you're missing at least two styles of sand-knit tags from the 1970-1980 era!).

fwiw, mears has again amended their "maravich" lot description, presumably due to this thread - their latest change includes the adding/highlighting of the following entry:

"For a matter of full disclosure, there is no direct provenance or images of Maravich wearing this jacket."

hey, no kidding mears. but, again, more mears double talk - for example, what's up with "... there is no direct provenance" nonsense? i mean good grief. hey mears, there is no provenance whatsoever on this thing, direct or indirect. further, there are no images of ANY jazz player sporting such a jacket!

so let's see: no provenance, no photos, no style matches and a lack of typical team tagging for that era. yet mears stamps it "authentic". and with an apparent straight face, also claims that it has an estimated vaule of $20,000+. are you kidding me? again, good grief.

it's time for mears to bite the bullet on this mess and admit that they were caught trying to pull a fast one - they can do this by pulling the thing from their auction (which they may do anyway if it doesn't get any more action) and spend their free time scouring every corner of the universe for a photo that will help their cause before trying to run it up the flagpole again.

or better yet, mears should just list the thing honestly, as an odd-ball jacket that is most likely a salesman sample or the like, but something that would nonetheless look nice in a collection.

...

[both-teams-played-hard]

btw i really like your site, just first-rate. i especially like your photo archives and tagging history sections (however you're missing at least two styles of sand-knit tags from the 1970-1980 era!).

Robert
Thanks for the interest in my site. It was originally a showcase of my collection, but finances forced me to be a dealer:cool:. I have 100s more jpgs of vintage sports photos that I have yet to add to my photo archives sections. It is difficult to navigate and I am working to convert them to resizable thumbnails.
Please email me directly any Sand-Knit tags that I missed. I have "Sand-Aire" and "Sand-Stretch" that have yet to be added. I do not claim to be an expert, and I learn everyday from research.
Another of Lew from the same photoshoot in the home white:
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6520/kareembucks1.jpg

Warren

[cohibasmoker]

Since this thread has some reference to Sand-Knit tagging, perhaps another forum member can refresh my memory on Sand-Knit jerseys - when were dealer tags replaced with "Designed and Tailored Exclusively tags" - was it 1971 or 1972?

Jim

[soxbats]

I was puzzling over this auction the other day, and I have the following potential solution. Someone should pull the relevant sports pages from the New Orleans Times-Picayune. Obviously this is something that MEARS could (and might) have done, but I have no doubt that there were likely many pictures of Maravitch, a basketball hero, in the Jazz's opening game in their inaugural season. At a minimum there should be a style match in there somewhere. Any New O locals on the board?

I looked at local libraries and could not find it, but the UPENN librarian had the below suggestion. For a piece of this potential value, I wonder why the rush to list. Happy hunting for anyone so inclined.

Unfortunately we do not have The New Orleans Times-Picayune on microfilm in our
collection. To locate a holding library that does carry it, I would recommend
using Worldcat (http://www.worldcat.org/) an online catalog of library catalogs
that will rank your results by zip code, so you can find the library closest to
you. If there is no holding library close to you, you can also try placing an
Interlibrary Loan (ILL) request with your local public library to borrow the
film from a holding library.

[otismalibu]

At a minimum there should be a style match in there somewhere.

I don't think the difficulty is finding a photo of Jazz players in the their opening season warmups. It's finding them wearing this particular style.

Did the Jazz have both home and road warmups during their first season?

[soxbats]

Actually, the MEARS description states: "Additionally, we could find NO image of an early 1974 Jazz jacket worn by ANY player."

That was what my post was trying to address. Get the paper from the first few games and see if there is anyone pictured with the warm up. The suggestion by MEARS is that this could have been used in an early 1974 game. Also, there may be a written description of the uniforms.

[otismalibu]

Actually, the MEARS description states: "Additionally, we could find NO image of an early 1974 Jazz jacket worn by ANY player."

Why does it need to be an early 1974 jacket? Is there evidence that the Jazz wore multiple styles during 74-75?

When are team photos taken? Would a 1975-76 hoops card feature a team photo from the previous year?

http://www.checkoutmycards.com/CardImages/Cards/179/781/07F.jpg

[both-teams-played-hard]

http://www.checkoutmycards.com/CardImages/Cards/179/781/07F.jpg
Elgin Baylor was hired as an assistant coach for the Jazz's first season. Is that Elgin rockin' a warm-up? DUDE!

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/3921/elginassistantcoach.jpg

Who would have the nerve to write an LOA for that one?

[aeneas01]

I don't think the difficulty is finding a photo of Jazz players in the their opening season warmups. It's finding them wearing this particular style. Did the Jazz have both home and road warmups during their first season?

here's the thing - mears states in the lot description that they examined a maravich warm-up jacket from the same season as the ebay jacket, but it was a different style and did not match the ebay jacket.

because the jackets didn't match, mears is trying to claim that the jazz actually wore two different warm-up jacket styles during the season in question: the one they examined (which is presumably authentic) and the ebay jacket.

to that end mears is claiming that the jacket they examined is from the second half of the 1974/75 season while the ebay jacket is from the first half of the 1974/75 season. further complicating matters, mears insists on referring to the jacket they examined as a "1975 jacket" and the ebay jacket as a "1974 jacket". if you ask me, mears does this for a very specific reason. anyway, here's what mears wrote in the lot description:

"MEARS has examined an additional 1975 Pete Maravich warmup jacket (worn during second half of 1974-75 season), it was also a size 44."

so mears knows what type of warm-up jackets the jazz wore during their inaugural 1974/75 season - the only problem is it doesn't match their ebay jacket. so what to do? how about trying to float the notion that the jazz wore TWO different warm-up styles that year?

...

[otismalibu]

Yeah, that's Baylor. To Pistol's left is Butch van Breda Kolff.

Who is that between Pistol & Baylor? Scotty Robertson?

[soxbats]

So as not to be misunderstood, I will announce my underlying lack of agenda. I am not saying the jacket is real or not real. I am not saying that the Jazz wore one, two, five or ten different warm ups, or that the premise of multiple warm up styles in one season is even plausible. I am not saying that I would buy the jacket given the description.

ALL, I repeat ALL, I am saying is that the MEARS description suggests that the jacket could be authentic because they could not find a definitve non-match from early in the 74 season. Again, the description says "Imagery analysis: At this time, MEARS was not able to find a photo of Maravich wearing this exact jacket. Additionally, we could find NO image of an early 1974 Jazz jacket worn by ANY player." It then continues, concluding "So with the Sand Knit tag dating ending in 1974 and no early 1974 images found of any Jazz player wearing a warm-up jacket, we are confident in our 1974 dating."

It does not "need" to be an early 74 jacket, but I interpret these statements to mean (or at least designed to suggest) that MEARS believes the absence of a picture of a Jazz warm up from early 74 leaves open the possibility that the warm up to be sold is authentic. (by the way, when reading this again I wonder if there was a "late" 74 picture found that did not match, the use of the word "early" twice is curious) That is a statement/conclusion by MEARS that with research might be proven incorrect. For a jacket of this value, MEARS could have done additional research in the manner I described earlier at relatively low cost.

Of course, if it can be demonstrated conclusively that the Jazz used only one style of warm up in 1974, then that would also address and resolve the same point. I am not aware of anyone demonstrating this, other than the logical conclusion that such an occurrence is unlikely.

[soxbats]

Robert, I posted before reading your post.

[otismalibu]

The reason I asked if that was coach Scotty Robertson in the photo, is because this site says he was only coach for 15 games.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/New_Orleans_Jazz

[bronx_burner]

Found this photo on AP Images. Dated 10/18/74. Making it the 2nd game of the season, so that would qualify as early in the season I believe. The fellow in the background on the left appears to be wearing a warmup jacket. Doesn't remotely resemble the jacket in question. For what its worth...

[trsent]

I am a bit confused. MEARS states they cannot match the item, they are very clear about this in their description. They also state they believe the item to be authentic, but they cannot match the style. They are entitled to their opinion, right?

What did MEARS do? They claim they cannot match the item, state they believe it to be authentic, so any bidders have their side of the story.

Did I miss something? I have no clue how this item went from an eBay sale to a neutral feedback into the possession of MEARS, but no matter what the jacket is, the seller broke a contract and whoever was the high bidder (bkbnts) who the seller now claims the item is not real so they can weasel out of their eBay contractual sale, should sue the seller based on the hammer price MEARS receives. I'm pretty sure the buyer would have to travel to Ohio, but screw it, they entered a contract and the item is a few weeks later for sale in another auction house? Sounds like fun to me.

eBay should also investigate to see if sales were made through the eBay messaging system. The seller opened the bidding at like $150.00 with a $199.99 reserve. I'd assume even if this jacket was not authentic, for two hundred dollars it is a really, really cool jacket. The seller used a weak excuse to back out of the sale as it is now for sale as genuine at a major auction house

[platinum1]

Found this photo on AP Images. Dated 10/18/74. Making it the 2nd game of the season, so that would qualify as early in the season I believe. The fellow in the background on the left appears to be wearing a warmup jacket. Doesn't remotely resemble the jacket in question. For what its worth...

YouTube has some videos of new Orleans jazz games. Can some one check into to it. I couldn't see that good because I only can go online on my phone.

[aeneas01]

Robert, I posted before reading your post.

and i posted while others were in the process of posting as well! all good, just means that we're all having a nice, active exchange!

regarding your new orleans times-picayune comment, i've also wondered why a company such as mears doesn't seem to invest in any of the premium quality resource services available on he net. for example, newsarchives.com is a great service which i have paid for in the past - but i don't think mears bothers with this excellent service/resource. i've also been a paid subscriber to wireimage.com for quite a while - it's not cheap ($75/month), but it's worth it to me given my interest in high quality, unwatermarked, vintage football photos. yet mears seems to be satisfied with the realtively small, watermarked, free images they can get from getty, us presswire etc... this just strikes me as odd and unprofessional given what mears does for a living. btw i agree with you - mears' to rush to auction with this thing is indeed puzzling....


So as not to be misunderstood, I will announce my underlying lack of agenda. I am not saying the jacket is real or not real. I am not saying that the Jazz wore one, two, five or ten different warm ups, or that the premise of multiple warm up styles in one season is even plausible. I am not saying that I would buy the jacket given the description. ALL, I repeat ALL, I am saying is that the MEARS description suggests that the jacket could be authentic because they could not find a definitve non-match from early in the 74 season.

frankly, i don't believe you have an agenda - but i do have to question your apparent faith in mears' "maravich" lot description. if an auction house is going to grade their own item as authentic and then declare its value to be in excess of $20,000, they better come to the table with more than just "it could be authentic because we can't find a definitive non-match" - know what i mean?

here's something interesting: mears' website contains a "code of ethics" section where mears lays down the law in terms of how they expect their members/dealers to conduct themselves when it comes to selling and buying sports memorabilia. outlined in the "code of conduct when buying" section, mears states:

"Representation: Buyers are prohibited from conveying information that would lead a seller to believe their item is not worth what they feel the market will bring. They are obligated to ensure the seller knows what they have and what the value of their item is with respect to various venues for sale."

http://www.mearsonline.com/forsale/ethics/

hmmm... yet mears, the author of these codes of ethics, buys the "maravich" jacket for $4k and then immediately declares that it's value is $20,000+. anyone else see a problem here?

here's another interesting item: not too long ago mears graded a great looking "1973/74" oscar robertson jersey a perfect a10. clearly wanting to also attribute the jersey to game use during the bucks' playoff run that year, mears claimed that the sand-knit size tagging style could only be from 1974 and therefore the jersey was most likely used in the second half of the 1973/74 season and during the playoffs.

mears, wanting to attribute this so-called "maravich" jacket to the new orleans jazz's inaugural season, has stated that the jacket's sand-knit size tagging style is consistent with 1974. therefore, the jacket is from the first half of the 1974/75 season.

so we have two sand-knit garments mears has tried to attribute to 1974, for two very specific reasons. yet these tags don't match. hmm....

http://www.mearsonline.com/forsale/item/?id=4306&view=archive

...

[aeneas01]

Found this photo on AP Images. Dated 10/18/74. Making it the 2nd game of the season, so that would qualify as early in the season I believe. The fellow in the background on the left appears to be wearing a warmup jacket. Doesn't remotely resemble the jacket in question. For what its worth...

wait a minute... are you saying these two jackets don't look the same to you?

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/zzzzzzz.jpg


from mears' lot description:

"At this time, MEARS was not able to find a photo of Maravich wearing this exact jacket. Additionally, we could find NO image of an early 1974 Jazz jacket worn by ANY player.... So with the Sand Knit tag dating ending in 1974 and no early 1974 images found of any Jazz player wearing a warm-up jacket, we are confident in our 1974 dating."

so there you go mears - an early 1974 image of a new orleans jazz player wearing a warm-up jacket. an image from the first half of the 1974/75 season. an image you were unable to find. tell us, does this change things at all? or are you still "confident in our 1974 dating"? time to yank the thing, dontcha think?

fwiw here is the ap caption from the above photo bronx-burner posted:

"New Orleans Jazz forward Lamar Green (16) and Philadelphia 76ers center LeRoy Ellis (25) watch in vain as the ball shoots away from them in the first quarter of an NBA game in Philadelphia on Friday, Oct. 18, 1974 night. (AP Photo)"


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/zzqqzz.jpg


second game of the 1974/75 season - can it get much earlier than that? nice job on the photo bronx.


I am a bit confused. MEARS states they cannot match the item, they are very clear about this in their description. They also state they believe the item to be authentic, but they cannot match the style. They are entitled to their opinion, right? What did MEARS do? They claim they cannot match the item, state they believe it to be authentic, so any bidders have their side of the story. Did I miss something?

from mears' website:

"...our contributions have grown to be more scientific in our approach to authentication resulting in the highest level of accuracy when determining a game-used item's authenticity. This precise determination is the reason why most of the historically important pieces of equipment that exist in the hobby today carry our letter of authenticity. Our accurate and complete research along with our willingness to stand behind our opinion for each and every item that we evaluate, instills a confidence among collectors that we are thrilled to be a part of. We will not only continue to evaluate and authenticate game used items with a level of responsibility and care that is unparalleled, but intend to share our knowledge with collectors by assisting them to acquire the memorabilia they seek or wish to sell. We also make the commitment to continually improve our existing practices without compromising our integrity."

i'm with you trsent, i don't see any problem whatsoever with the way mears has handled this so-called "maravich gamer" - as far as i can tell, the way mears handled the jacket is entirely consistent with their above pledge to collectors as well as entirely consistent with their posted code of ethics...

...

[soxbats]

Hey, Robert, I think this is the best part of the forum, and I love the research aspect (particularly the addition photomatching resources). Being fairly simple myself, my post was a bit simpler than you think. I was not placing any "faith" in MEARS whatsoever. In fact, my point was that MEARS claimed inability to find ANY early 1974 warmup was curious as there were some simple things they could have done to determine this one way or another. Little did we know that it was as easy as Bronx-Burner demonstrated, a huge miss for an authenticator like MEARS. To close the loop I would love to see a photo of the previously authenticated Jazz "Late 74/75" warmup to determine whether it matches the one pictured.

[LWMM]

Here's a photo from Getty, dated to 1/1/1974 (i.e. an unspecified date in 1974, January 1st being the default) at the Celtics. It looks as if the Jazz played four games (two home/road) against the Celtics that season, two each in 1974 and 1975 (one home/road each year). This picture is thus likely from game 30 on December 20th 1974, although the caption states that the game was in Boston, while Basketball-Reference.com states that the game was played in Springfield (some of the photographer's shots of Maravich (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Search.aspx?query=z.i.H4sIAAAAAAAEAO29B2AcSZYlJi9t ynt_SvVK1-B0oQiAYBMk2JBAEOzBiM3mkuwdaUcjKasqgcplVmVdZhZAzO2d vPfee--999577733ujudTif33_8_XGZkAWz2zkrayZ4hgKrIHz9-fB8_In7dfLn91etf49f4NX6PX_dskV3kvyb9-pj-_2v8miP8euNjGv2aSV1V7cuszhbNr62f_Vr4_-4Ofv3dTfvfDP_8xvT_X-_d6-vm9J2B8Wt6f_O72bn59dfU3wHu187Op7ZL_w_0-WvucI-L1r3pfv91qHFpv7B_4b1fl_6oFxZs-Oevj4928devx59PLIzO3_zaeQjF_slQdiyU8w4U9ze_VodQ7J8 MZc9CqTtQ3N9EmdzCwB9mSphMu_jtNzRtMRlMW6JJvjKf_prBX 792PmnsN-YPJnbucPB-_7Vy19z7_dduViv7uf_Hr3U5de3d779OVXscYv_irya5_5X5C8-vPbtamt9_TfPHr4P_N2tvGMFfv3aeOQz8P-j3lf-F_ePXbQJo4Z-_9rtnzx396Q_7RVZ7uNEfptXvQv__jZ4W07fpq2w1z3Jmzt-omVar_Ml6OSs9ggafmvd_HMAf7NzH778O8dPaNg_--nXmtfwhZMNfBsLHgLC39xC_E8s4IfL_-PVe5Fd50_4_Ti4tSDYEAAA.&rid=206986&rcat=SpecificPeople&rt=Pete%20Maravich) are mislabed, such as this one (http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/74640545/National-Basketball-Association), which could complicate things).

At any rate, the warm-up jersey seems similar to the one just posted from game 2, although while the two in this picture have numbers on the front, I don't see any on the other.


http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/93903374.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF878921CC759DF4EBAC47D09C6EDF1A927991AF F447BC6A9315288FCA2C44C86ED12563

Caption: BOSTON - 1974: Pete Maravich #44 of the New Orleans Jazz sits on the bench against the Boston Celtics during a game played in 1974 at the Boston Garden in Boston, Massachusetts. NOTE TO USER: User expressly acknowledges and agrees that, by downloading and or using this photograph, User is consenting to the terms and conditions of the Getty Images License Agreement. Mandatory Copyright Notice: Copyright 1974 NBAE (Photo by Dick Raphael/NBAE via Getty Images)

[bronx_burner]

That shot would have to be from the 74-75 season as Maravich is wearing 44. He wore 7 starting with the 75-76 season. The numbers you see are from the jersey under the warmup which is just unbuttoned. There aren't any numbers on the jacket. So it does appear to match the game 2 warmup.

[LWMM]

That shot would have to be from the 74-75 season as Maravich is wearing 44. He wore 7 starting with the 75-76 season. The numbers you see are from the jersey under the warmup which is just unbuttoned. There aren't any numbers on the jacket. So it does appear to match the game 2 warmup.


Got it, that makes a lot of sense; and what I thought was a number on the front of the jacket on the player to Maravich's right is just the 'Z' in 'JAZZ'.

[xpress34]

Here's a photo from SI showing Pete wearing a Warm Up that resembles the one the other player is wearing in the B&W - JAZZ on front and Horizontal Stripes running around the sleeves and NO Collar:

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1009/best.hair.sports.history/images/morrison-maravich.jpg

- Smitty

[aeneas01]

Hey, Robert, I think this is the best part of the forum, and I love the research aspect (particularly the addition photomatching resources). Being fairly simple myself, my post was a bit simpler than you think. I was not placing any "faith" in MEARS whatsoever. In fact, my point was that MEARS claimed inability to find ANY early 1974 warmup was curious as there were some simple things they could have done to determine this one way or another. Little did we know that it was as easy as Bronx-Burner demonstrated, a huge miss for an authenticator like MEARS. To close the loop I would love to see a photo of the previously authenticated Jazz "Late 74/75" warmup to determine whether it matches the one pictured.

yes, mears' inability to locate supporting images/documentation for items they've graded/authenticated (and attach big dollar values to) is indeed disturbing - they've done it before and they continue to do it. even worse, mears has also been caught claiming that they've style-matched items yet was unable to produce proof of these style-matches (photos) when their bluff was called (hopefully this is not the case with the maravich jacket they've claimed to have evaluated).

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showpost.php?p=132237&postcount=13

and while we're at it:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/q05-1.jpg

...

[xpress34]

One more...

on this You Tube video with Bill Walton:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk-JJX2SRHc

At the 46 sec mark you see Maravich and the Rest of the Jazz 'warming up' wearing the same Jackets as the pic I just posted.... in fact, regardless of the year, this is the ONLY style Jacket I can find for the NO Jazz between 1974 and 1979 (Maravich's Years).

The Mears Jacket makes me wonder if it wasn't actually made - not necessarily as a Salesman's Sample - BEFORE 1974 (like in 1973) as a RETAIL item before the Team Logo had been declared.

I have seen items similar to this happen TWICE hear in Denver - when the Rockies were announces, there was tons of stuff made with Colorado Rockies on it, but NO team Logo BEFORE the Inaugural 1993 season and same thing happened in 1994-1995 with the Avalanched before the 1995-96 Inaugural season.

Just throwing it out there as another possible scenario since I have yet to see ANY NO Jazz warm up jacket pictures that don't have the traditional JAZZ logo on the front.

- Smitty

[xpress34]

Here's a photo from SI showing Pete wearing a Warm Up that resembles the one the other player is wearing in the B&W - JAZZ on front and Horizontal Stripes running around the sleeves and NO Collar:

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1009/best.hair.sports.history/images/morrison-maravich.jpg

- Smitty

I forgot to mention that this photo is also clearly from the 1974-75 season and shows a much better image of the 'style' of warm ups.

Why clearly from 74-75? You can see one of the 4's under Pete's jacket from his 44 that he only wore in 74-75 according to Bronx.

- Smitty

[xpress34]

Sorry for so many posts, just keep catching other things here - and fwiw, I'm a BASEBALL guy, but jerseys are jerseys and I'm not an 'expert', but a few other things caught my eye...

ALL of the other 'similar style' Warm Ups from other teams shown in Robert's original post have the team LOGO on the front or the Team Name in the OFFICIAL style font or design - not what appear to be ironed on letters.

Also, the NOB - if you look close at the pics of Pete in the warm up with Jazz on the front, you'll see the NOP (Name on Plate) - NOT NOB - as you can see the corner of the Name Plate sticking up and many of the other styles show NOP, not NOB as the eBay item.

- Smitty

[Mark17]

Someone mentioned the fact MEARS seems to be updating the item description in response to the questions raised here about this jacket. I thought someone from MEARS posts here sometimes... if they are monitoring this thread I'd love to hear their updated defense of this situation, from the ethics of the acquisition, to the authentication with zero provenance or supporting photos.

Honestly, this is so bad it reminds me of the "TSA" 8-page COA/LOA of that Lou Gehrig "gamer." At least with that one, they had a style match (Gehrig using a bat with squared-off barrel end.)

[MSpecht]

"TSA these are scholars,philosophers,doctors,lawyers,lawmen etc at levels you wont even see in movies. One of these men has met Gehrig personally recently thats right you read right."


Well, TSA also had the advantage of talking to Lou directly...thus the authentication coming straight from the (Iron) Horse's mouth.


Mike jackitout7@aol.com

[aeneas01]

Someone mentioned the fact MEARS seems to be updating the item description in response to the questions raised here about this jacket. I thought someone from MEARS posts here sometimes... if they are monitoring this thread I'd love to hear their updated defense of this situation, from the ethics of the acquisition, to the authentication with zero provenance or supporting photos.

Honestly, this is so bad it reminds me of the "TSA" 8-page COA/LOA of that Lou Gehrig "gamer." At least with that one, they had a style match (Gehrig using a bat with squared-off barrel end.)

i'm with you, this is quite bad - "from the ethics of the acquisition, to the authentication with zero provenance or supporting photos" as you so well put. but what on earth could mears possibly say in their defense other than "sorry guys, you caught us once again."? shame on mears.

i noticed that the jacket ended up closing at just above $4k (after sitting at $1.5k-$2.5k for much of the time towards the end of the auction) which, coincidentally, is the same amount mears paid for the thing. given mears' shenanigans concerning this jacket, one has to wonder if mears won the thing back, not wanting to take a loss on it....


The Mears Jacket makes me wonder if it wasn't actually made - not necessarily as a Salesman's Sample - BEFORE 1974 (like in 1973) as a RETAIL item before the Team Logo had been declared.

I have seen items similar to this happen TWICE hear in Denver - when the Rockies were announces, there was tons of stuff made with Colorado Rockies on it, but NO team Logo BEFORE the Inaugural 1993 season and same thing happened in 1994-1995 with the Avalanched before the 1995-96 Inaugural season.

Just throwing it out there as another possible scenario since I have yet to see ANY NO Jazz warm up jacket pictures that don't have the traditional JAZZ logo on the front.

excellent points/observations express - why the generic/common lettering on the jacket rather than any hint of the sans serif font style the jazz used for their nobs during their inaugural season? why no team logo on the jacket? these weren't red flags as far as mears was concerned? also, didn't maravich's 1974/75 jerseys (and presumably jacket) sport the name "pistol" on the back rather than "maravich"? whatever the case, good call xpress...


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/pistol.jpg

...

[CollectGU]

I've seen them pull items for less than this, but there is no way dave or troy is going to chalk up for $4k (if that is what they paid) out of their pockets to a mistake. Dave Gob reads these posts and I have yet to hear him chime in on this.........

Dave

[trsent]

I've seen them pull items for less than this, but there is no way dave or troy is going to chalk up for $4k (if that is what they paid) out of their pockets to a mistake. Dave Gob reads these posts and I have yet to hear him chime in on this.........

Dave

I looked at the MEARS forum for the first time in a long, long time, like since when Dave Grob took something I said personally and I just stopped reading their forum.

Needless to say, no response about the questions raised here.

[CollectGU]

I don't see the jacket listed anymore in the completed auction, but Robert says he saw the final bid at 4k (was it a no reserve auction, if so it should be listed as sold)? Did they pull the item AFTER the auction ended or was it bought back by them?

Dave

[LWMM]

I don't see the jacket listed anymore in the completed auction, but Robert says he saw the final bid at 4k (was it a no reserve auction, if so it should be listed as sold)? Did they pull the item AFTER the auction ended or was it bought back by them?

Dave

The page is still up, and mearsonlineauctions.com still shows it in the "Current Auction Highlights" scrollbar. The catalogue however does not show all of the items anymore, including the Maravich jersey and the Sporting News Archives Collection.

http://www.mearsonlineauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=19034

[CollectGU]

I see what happened - it wasn'y a single auction. It appears they had two auctions, one ending on October 30th and one ending November 1st, so to see Oct. 30th, you need to go to archives...My bad.......

Dave

[commando]

It never ceases to amaze me how often this scenario arises.

Here's the scenario as I see it.

When a brand new team needs to decide on a uniform style, the decision is obviously a very important one. The selection of colors and patterns are of the utmost importance to the branding and marketing of the team, both for the present and future.

Do we all agree on this so far?

OK, so usually, the team brass will request and be presented with numerous styles of uniforms to be considered. Usually, some attributes of a sample will be liked... other attributes not so much. This "tweaking" process can vary team by team, of course, but one thing is certain: prototype uniforms are ALWAYS manufactured for professional teams. Whether they are saved or not is the only real question.

Not exactly brain surgery so far, and believe me, if it were, I would be the guy scrubbing the sink afterward for $12 an hour.

So, sticking with the prototype scenario... Isn't it common for prototypes and salesman samples to feature a star player from the team? Even the Lew Alcindor jersey pictured earlier fits this scenario, even though it isn't a prototype or salesman sample by definition. Milwaukee needed a jersey to help announce their new STAR player, so Sand Knit quickly produced a jersey that was probably tagged differently than the usual jerseys issued to the team.

You have to understand one of the reasons why so many star player jerseys have these strange anomalies when it comes to random details, like tagging or minor design differences. It's usually because of what I stated above. Was Sand Knit more likely to make a prototype Jazz warm-up jacket featuring Pete Maravich or Stu Lantz?

All I am saying is that the logical conclusion here, in my mind, is that this was a prototype item. Why wouldn't it be? To me, the question is not whether it's "real" or altered, or a Sand Knit item. I'll bet the warm-up jacket in question looked EXACTLY the same now as it did while in the hands of Jazz brass (no pun intended).

Here are my points for calling this a prototype:

1. Not a single photo of a similar item can be found, even featuring other players.

2. The item appears to be from the inaugural season era.

3. The item features the franchise player, Pete Maravich.

4. The item does not carry exclusive team tagging.

5. The item does not feature the Jazz team logo, which may have not yet been chosen at the time.

None of these five points guarantee that this is a prototype. I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that in my opinion, this item favors being a prototype. Isn't that the most likely choice? Instead of making the leap of faith that this style was actually worn by the team -- with no real evidence to prove it -- can't we make the more logical assumption that this was one style that was considered, but ultimately not chosen?

It's a GREAT warm-up. I love it. I have always enjoyed collecting proofs and prototypes, because they are so rare and unusual. And I'm tellin' ya, until more evidence surfaces, I think that's exactly what this item is.

[both-teams-played-hard]

Here are my points for calling this a prototype:

1. Not a single photo of a similar item can be found, even featuring other players.

2. The item appears to be from the inaugural season era.

3. The item features the franchise player, Pete Maravich.

4. The item does not carry exclusive team tagging.

5. The item does not feature the Jazz team logo, which may have not yet been chosen at the time.


Anthony
You listed all the reasons that this MAY be a prototype, that I was going to post.
If this item was described as an "un-used, one-of-a-kind, prototype warm-up" and sold at Grey Flannel's hall of fame auction...what price would it fetch?

[commando]

Anthony
You listed all the reasons that this MAY be a prototype, that I was going to post.
If this item was described as an "un-used, one-of-a-kind, prototype warm-up" and sold at Grey Flannel's hall of fame auction...what price would it fetch?

Sounds like we're on the same page here (and I'm glad, because when it comes to Sand Knit, "you da man.")

The game-used hobby seems to put its highest value on rare items that were actually worn in a game (from what I have seen). I am personally a huge fan of prototypes, and I know there are other serious, advanced collectors who also like that kind of thing, but I think the real bidding war would occur if the shooting-shirt in question was worn by Maravich. His wearing of this top would change this from a "niche" item to a much more widely-collected arena, probably with much more bidding interest.

[Bravesfan]

A prototype would be fine, IF there was any PROOF of it.
I don't think I would plunk down thousands of dollars based on your hunch. No offense. :)

[commando]

A prototype would be fine, IF there was any PROOF of it.
I don't think I would plunk down thousands of dollars based on your hunch. No offense. :)

No offense taken, my friend. I wasn't really considering the cost, to be honest with you. I guess I was concentrating solely on the likelihood of what this item might be. My feeling is that it is an early Jazz prototype. If it was described as a prototype in an auction, I'm not sure if ANYONE would plunk down thousands of dollars for it! :D

Hopefully more research and evidence will present itself in the future...

[otismalibu]

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=23647

[Bravesfan]

commando,
Understood and thanks.
I am so interested in this item now that I can't wait to see what it really is. :D

[aeneas01]

http://www.network54.com/Forum/426247/message/1288635787/MEARS+Policy+and+the+Maravich+Shooting+Jacket

...

[LWMM]

http://www.network54.com/Forum/426247/message/1288635787/MEARS+Policy+and+the+Maravich+Shooting+Jacket

...

A bit more mumbo jumbo with the hand in the cookie jar, but it's nice to see Mears take some responsibility for the jacket. That post doesn't address what happened in the Mears auction, however, notably whether an unaffiliated party purchased it (and presumably had the sale canceled) or Mears threw in the high bid.

[Bravesfan]

Why would Mears offer the Ebay seller $2000? Why not offer maybe double what it sold for? The seller probably would have still sold it to them. Doesn't $2000 seem like overkill?

[xpress34]

If anyone has a way to contact the REAL eBay winner - who got screwed in their purchase - I would contact them and point them to Dave Grob's note that flatout says that YES, MEARS did in fact obtain the jacket AFTER the FACT of the eBay Auction closing and have that eBay seller banned.

But that's just me. ;)

It would be nice to know if MEARS is in fact going to do any 'investigating' into how the jacket was obtained and if they will actually take any disciplinary action against whatever employee set up the deal and made the purchase thereby dragging MEARS name through the mud.

Just a thought....

- Smitty

[earlywynnfan]

Once again, I find Dave Grob a person I'd feel completely comfortable doing business with.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

[trsent]

Why would Mears offer the Ebay seller $2000? Why not offer maybe double what it sold for? The seller probably would have still sold it to them. Doesn't $2000 seem like overkill?

Was it $2000 or $4000?

[Bravesfan]

aeneas01 (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/member.php?u=1884) http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register("postmenu_223509", true);
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,046


http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: MEARS Mumbo-Jumbo?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jags Fan Dan http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?p=223460#post223460)
I won a 1994 Packers jersey from Mears and the "style matches" they sent to me with the jersey were all from 1993 when the Packers wore their own franchise 75th anniversary patches, versus the NFL 75th patch on the 1994 jersey.

mears' has a history of claiming "stlye-matches" on their worksheets which are nothing of the sort - and they've blamed interns, new employees, and a lack of of proper training for these issues. nonetheless the problems continue and, unfortunately, it appears that mears continues to sign these worksheets which presumably means that he has reviewed and approved their content.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 33bird"
I could be wrong, but I highly doubt Dave Grob had anything to do with this Maravich jacket. I think he sticks to baseball. My guess is this is their other guys.

from what i understand, mears ended up purchasing the jacket for $4k.............



I guess it was $4000, according to this post. WOW

[aeneas01]

a few thoughts:

i believe this sitch is especially reprehensible given that it appears mears knew full well that the jacket they were purchasing was highly questionable to start with, yet they purchased it nonetheless confident in the knowledge that they could make it sellable, at an enormous profit, simply by deeming it "mears authenticate". mears has done this before (bart starr jersey for example) and they obviously did it again. and of course the way mears obtained the item, and what they paid for it, is equally reprehensible given that they tried to position it as a $20k+ item.

let's be clear here - mears is an outfit that has painted itself as a pillar of honestly, integrity, trust and fair deals. an outfit that claims no conflicts of interest exist in what they do because they adhere to a strict code of ethics. yet we see the same shenanigans from mears again and again.

the last time mears was caught with their hand in the cookie jar, dave bushing indignantly said that he would no longer authenticate and blamed collectors for publicly calling mears out:

-----------------------------------------------

"...if you make a single error, regardles of how trivial... no matter what it is, it never seems to be enough for the self proclaimed so called authorities who wait at the computer for an auction catalog to come out merely for the purpose to rip it to shreads to show the world how much they know and how little others do. This behavior is no longer tolerable to me... I will concentrate soley on the for sale sight and will not grade nor authenticate my purchases and will leave that to the staff."

http://www.network54.com/Forum/426247/message/1208406865/Authenticating

------------------------------------------------

for the record, Mears has also lectured collectors about the unethical habit of unscrupulous dealers who approach ebay sellers privately with low-ball offers:

------------------------------------------------

"Is it ethical to offer an unsuspecting ebay seller $400 for a game bat that should sell for ten times that? I understand that people see a great item... but a legitimate offer should be at least 50% of retail. Anything less is nothing less than fraudulent as you know the value but you choose to cheat the seller out of their just rewards... if you offer an unsuspecting ebay seller ten cents on the dollar, you are a cheat, plain and simple... it should be criminal to offer the unsuspecting seller a mere pitance of the true value (per the Roadshow Civil War Sword lawsuit, it is auctually criminal if the buyer is knowledgable and does not offer a fair price). Ebay sellers, get wise to these guys..."

http://www.network54.com/Forum/426247/message/1187534633/ebay+and+end+it+early+offers

------------------------------------------------

beautiful. anyway, Mears clearly didn't offer the ebay seller $4k out of the blue for the jacket (which btw equates to less than 1/5 of the $20k+ mears' estimated its value to be - so much for the 50% mumbo jumbo). after all, the ebay jacket ended with a winning ebay bid of $200. no, the seller had other offers on the thing and mears had to cough up $4k to get it. one can only imagine how much mears would have picked it up for had the seller not received other offers which drove mears price up to $4k. $300? $500?

game used maravich items fetch solid prices, in fact a quick search comes up with the following prices for maravich items sold at auction: $108,000, $98,400, $50,788, $48,884, $44,200, $36,716, $33,000, $23,500, $21,600, $19,200, $18,000, $15,600, $14,340, $13,200, $10,800, $10,755.

given this, it's not too hard to understand why mears was so eager to try and float the jacket as a maravich gamer - they clearly stood to gain handsomely. which brings to something else: this isn't simply a case of an authenticator doing a shoddy/rushed job in order to collect his fees. nor is it a case of an auction house overstating the merits of a consignor's item in order to collect on buyer/seller fees. nope, these issues pale in comparison to what mears did with this jacket.

mears came across an item that they clearly knew had serious issues - but because it was maravich related, mears thought that they could gain handsomely by picking it up on the cheap and then validating it with a mears grade. unethically, mears contacted the ebay seller privately to arrange the deal even though that meant that ebay's fees would be circumvented and that the rightful ebay winner would be robbed of his item. additionally, mears low-balled the ebay seller given mears' clear knowledge of what authenticated maravich items fetch at sports memorabilia auctions. just shameful.

the only bright spot in this whole mess is that it's clear dave grob had nothing to do with it. in fact, given dave's recent post to the the mears board, he finds mears' hand in this as indefensible as everyone here.

btw here's another chuckle: in order to maximize the value of the "maravich jacket", mears had to attribute it to the jazz's inaugural season. given that they knew photos existed of jazz players wearing jackets during the second half of the 1974/75 season, they claimed that the this jacket was from the first half of the 1974/75 season and that the tagging confirmed it, that the tagging was unique to 1974.

---------------------------------------------

"Per the MEARS tagging database, this style of tag, with the medalist gold medal to the right of the Sand Knit wording, was most consistently last used during the 1974 season. Starting in 1975, examples are found with the gold medal at the bottom of the tag. Thus, the design is most consistent with 1974."

---------------------------------------------

what utter bs. tag "a" below is what's on the "maravich" jacket, which mears claims is a 1974 tag. tag "b" is what mears claims to be a 1975 tag. however tag "c" is from a 1975/76 game used maravich jersey (from the jazz's second year), and it matches tag "a", with the medal logo to the right of sand-knit. this jersey is in the mears database. whatever it takes to make a buck i guess.....


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/002.jpg


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/zz00.jpg


....

[cohibasmoker]

Since MEARS owned the jacket, I wonder if the winning bidder was still charged a "Buyer's Premium"?

Imagine selling an item on eBay and then telling the winning bidder they had to add another 20% to their final price.

Just an opinion

Jim

[trsent]

You make a lot of negative statements, bringing up 2-3 items from the past that you don't like the work MEARS did but you fail to mention the thousands of items MEARS did a find job writing up over the years.

The handling of the Maravich jacket has raised many questions. It appears that Dave Grob is stepping down as policy director over this item, at least that is how I read his post on the MEARS forum. I just don't understand how you can go from raising questions to making assumptions about this situation without having solid proof.

MEARS should be ashamed of their interference with an eBay sale, if this is true, and the handling of this item in general. Making assumptions of the daily history is not how to go about making your point.

Does the consensus feel this jacket should have been labeled as either prototype or single game used jacket with no photographic evidence to back up use at this time? At least they would have covered both extremes if they went this direction.

[trsent]

Since MEARS owned the jacket, I wonder if the winning bidder was still charged a "Buyer's Premium"?

Imagine selling an item on eBay and then telling the winning bidder they had to add another 20% to their final price.

Just an opinion

Jim

MEARS charges 15% on all items to the buyer. They own most of the items in their auction I believe and they charge this premium on all items.

Most all independent auction houses charge a buyer's premium, MEARS is more reasonable than most. eBay is a special operation that it is illegal to charge premiums on, unless I believe, you are working with eBay Live which I do not know if they still even exist.

Comparing eBay to any other auction house in the memorabilia business is not realistic. I personally would love to see the memorabilia auction houses work on lowering buyer's premiums since it is a tool that has taken advantage of the public for years and years but I don't see it going away.

The original concept of the premium was for the auction houses to cover costs since most items were to be consignments. Too many auction houses now own their own items and still charge the premium which defeats the purpose, but good luck getting this to change.

[aeneas01]

Once again, I find Dave Grob a person I'd feel completely comfortable doing business with. Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

i agree 100% ken.


A bit more mumbo jumbo with the hand in the cookie jar, but it's nice to see Mears take some responsibility for the jacket. That post doesn't address what happened in the Mears auction, however, notably whether an unaffiliated party purchased it (and presumably had the sale canceled) or Mears threw in the high bid.

did mears take some responsibility for the jacket? i don't think so. seems to me that grob, mears' policy guy, simply felt that he had to say something about this mess, which was that it's indefensible, but the guys that run mears have said nothing. as far as mears' auction is concerned, did mears win the jacket back? if they i don't know how they could admit as much given they've said numerous times that they don't bid in their own auctions.


None of these five points guarantee that this is a prototype. I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that in my opinion, this item favors being a prototype. Isn't that the most likely choice? Instead of making the leap of faith that this style was actually worn by the team -- with no real evidence to prove it -- can't we make the more logical assumption that this was one style that was considered, but ultimately not chosen?

i think a prototype makes sense, but so do many other possibilities including it simply being a vintage warm-up jacket that someone made into a maravich/jazz jacket. heck, the green in the jacket doesn't even match the green in the jazz's uniform (perhaps it's faded?). whatever the case, i don't know how anyone could conclusively determine that it was a prototype, let alone authenticate it as a prototype, without any sort of supporting info...

so i'm wondering, did maravich even sport a jersey or warm-up with "maravich" on the back during his first year with the jazz? does mears even have proof of this?

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/pistolcomp.jpg

...

[aeneas01]

for the record, while mears did indeed purchase the ebay jersey, dave bushing has contacted me to say that he was not involved in the transaction - as such i've asked chris cavalier to remove dave's name from my posts and replace it with mears.

...

[ChrisCavalier]

Dave Bushing did contact GUU as well stating he had no involvement whatsoever with the Maravich jersey. As such, as per GUU protocol, his name was removed from the posts right after he contacted us.

If there is anything else Dave Bushing or anyone else at mears feels is incorrect, they can feel free to contact us and GUU will remove or edit anything that might be inaccurate.

-Chris

[LWMM]

Dave Bushing did contact GUU as well stating he had no involvement whatsoever with the Maravich jersey. As such, as per GUU protocol, his name was removed from the posts right after he contacted us.

If there is anything else Dave Bushing or anyone else at mears feels is incorrect, they can feel free to contact us and GUU will remove or edit anything that might be inaccurate.

-Chris

Chris,

What protocol is this? Does this mean that Lou Lampson, for example, can get in contact with you and have all threads discussing his authentications removed by claiming that they are inaccurate? I don't know what the purpose is of a forum like this if it can't objectively vet items or the involvement with them that entities have (such involvement making their claims inherently subjective).

Awaiting your response, I'll refrain from voicing judegement concerning your move.

[ChrisCavalier]

Chris,

What protocol is this? Does this mean that Lou Lampson, for example, can get in contact with you and have all threads discussing his authentications removed by claiming that they are inaccurate? I don't know what the purpose is of a forum like this if it can't objectively vet items or the involvement with them that entities have (such involvement making their claims inherently subjective).

Awaiting your response, I'll refrain from voicing judegement concerning your move.
Hello Luc,

Thank you for your post and I will be happy to clarify. We have created rules for the forum which can be found here:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=99

Rule #16 states:

In instances where a forum member is identifying an item in the hobby they believe to have issues, the poster should clearly state their findings in the form of an opinion and provide adequate rationale for why they believe there is an issue. When possible, we recommend that the poster questioning an item attempt to contact the seller of the item and allow at least 24 hours for the seller to reply before posting. This will prevent postings that may be generated based on misunderstandings of an item. In addition, while this forum is designed to help educate collectors, we will not allow comments that accuse entities in the hobby of participating in any form of criminal wrong-doing. Any posts suggesting criminal wrong-doing should be brought to the attention of the moderators immediately.

While GUU certainly cannot know everything concerning claims that are made on the site, nor are we mediators, if there is something posted that is clearly inaccurate, we will do what we can to remove or edit the posts to remove inaccuracies. In this instance, we were contacted and told by Dave Bushing that he had no involvement whatsoever with the transaction. While we were not privy to the transaction, we find no reason to doubt his word. As such, that part of the post was removed. If evidence can be presented otherwise that would be something to consider. Absent that, it is consistent with policy to remove his name. This is not the first time this has been done. There have been many other instances where posts have been deleted or edited to remove claims that lacked substantiation.

Again, while we are not privy to everything that happens in the hobby and there is often no way for us to know one way or another what really happened, we will act on any posts where we are contacted by someone feels they have been inaccurately represented unless proof can be provided otherwise. Further, in this instance, as noted in the thread, the original poster agreed to remove Dave's name from the post.

Please let me know if that answers your question.

-Chris

[yankees159]

Wow amazing stuff. How comfortable should we be with Mears loa's? Why would someone pay these guys for opinions on items when you see things like this happen.

[trsent]

Wow amazing stuff. How comfortable should we be with Mears loa's? Why would someone pay these guys for opinions on items when you see things like this happen.

They are currently the only company I believe authenticating game used memorabilia (other than other bat authenticators) and their work is almost always perfect. Thousands of authentications and then a couple of mistakes and people come on here and act as if it is the norm for them.

MEARS has a great industry record, and there are unanswered questions about this jacket that I do not know if anyone from MEARS has actually addressed because maybe they have not been contacted or maybe they feel attacked over the issues - I don't know. I never asked them, I just saw the posts on this forum.

Also, this industry isn't perfect with authentication, but MEARS has always stood behind their decisions even if they have not replied to this one, I do not know if anyone has attempted to contact them over it.

----

On another note, interesting to see that the rumors have been denied about who bought this jersey off eBay. Bravo Chris to edit the forum to remove speculations or rumors.

The facts that Robert has shown is really enough evidence that hopefully MEARS responds to if someone contacts them over it personally.

[WadeInBmore]

I think there is always going to be the good and the bad. Authenticators are not perfect though we all would like to think that they are. At the end of the day it is still just a piece of paper with someones opinion on it. As long as you are happy with the item, then that's all that matters at the end of the day. This thread started because Mears swooped in and stole an item right out from under someone...it's not the first time someone has used cash money to get what they wanted in this hobby. My two cents for what its worth.

Wade

[earlywynnfan]

["Thousands of authentications and then a couple of mistakes and people come on here and act as if it is the norm for them."

I don't think anyone is saying this is the norm for them. But the mistakes that have been brought up here have been monstrous money-grabs that fly in the face of everything they purport to stand for.



"Also, this industry isn't perfect with authentication, but MEARS has always stood behind their decisions even if they have not replied to this one, I do not know if anyone has attempted to contact them over it."

Please refresh my memory on their response over the Jim Brown jersey. I seem to recall them avoiding that one, too.


Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

[trsent]

["Thousands of authentications and then a couple of mistakes and people come on here and act as if it is the norm for them."

I don't think anyone is saying this is the norm for them. But the mistakes that have been brought up here have been monstrous money-grabs that fly in the face of everything they purport to stand for.



"Also, this industry isn't perfect with authentication, but MEARS has always stood behind their decisions even if they have not replied to this one, I do not know if anyone has attempted to contact them over it."

Please refresh my memory on their response over the Jim Brown jersey. I seem to recall them avoiding that one, too.


Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

Ken, I do not know all the history about a Jim Brown jersey. You should email or call MEARS and ask if you really want to know. How come I should know the answer?

I just know the same 2-4 items there have been issues with keep getting brought up over and over again. They have thousands upon thousands of quality authentication, and a guy makes a comment asking how comfortable they should be with their authentication and you say no one is questioning if this is the norm.

Who said MEARS is avoiding anything? Has anyone personally contacted Troy or the general staff at MEARS asking questions? MEARS does not have a responsibility to this forum. I assume they know about this thread, but that doesn't mean they read it.

Dave Grob has taken personal action and the other Dave has make a statement that I can only assume is true so they are covered, but neither of them work in the office for MEARS as far as I understand, so unless someone calls or emails them with these questions, who knows how they are responding since they do not have an obligation to respond on this forum.

It would be nice if they would respond on this forum directly to Robert's findings, or for that matter even on their own forum, but we cannot control what they do from here if we do not contact them personally and I'm not going to do that myself.

Someone should take the lead.

[Bravesfan]

This reminds me of those commercials. "Are you sure this parachute is packed correctly?" "Probably"!
"Are you sure this item is legit?" "Probably!"

[Lokee]

This reminds me of those commercials. "Are you sure this parachute is packed correctly?" "Probably"!
"Are you sure this item is legit?" "Probably!"

AWSOME !

[Mark17]

Who said MEARS is avoiding anything? Has anyone personally contacted Troy or the general staff at MEARS asking questions? MEARS does not have a responsibility to this forum. I assume they know about this thread, but that doesn't mean they read it.

Clearly Dave and Dave are reading it, as they have both responded. In fact, Dave Grob's response includes him making a major decision in how he will manage his involvement with MEARS in the future. So..... you don't think this thread/issue is important enough for other senior MEARS staff to read, or that they don't care about the very informative photos and comments members are offering, regarding the questionability of this item?


Dave Grob has taken personal action and the other Dave has make a statement that I can only assume is true so they are covered, but neither of them work in the office for MEARS as far as I understand, so unless someone calls or emails them with these questions, who knows how they are responding since they do not have an obligation to respond on this forum.

If Dave and Dave felt it was important to respond to this forum, it seems rather cavalier (no pun intended) for the rest of MEARS to ignore it.


It would be nice if they would respond on this forum directly to Robert's findings, or for that matter even on their own forum, but we cannot control what they do from here if we do not contact them personally and I'm not going to do that myself.

Someone should take the lead.

All right, I will. I'll assume Troy is either reading this, or that he talks with Dave or Dave every so often, and we know they are reading it. Troy, Dave and Dave weren't responsible for what happened... So, can you offer any enlightenment to the situation?

[trsent]

All right, I will. I'll assume Troy is either reading this, or that he talks with Dave or Dave every so often, and we know they are reading it. Troy, Dave and Dave weren't responsible for what happened... So, can you offer any enlightenment to the situation?

MEARS doesn't have to read this forum, no one makes any auction house read this forum. I'm sure they know about this discussion, but they do not have to come to this forum to respond.

We do not know who or how much this jacket was bought for. We do not know if they were contacted or if the seller was contacted and reneged on an eBay deal.

I have no reason to contact Troy or Tony over this issue. If anyone, such as Robert wants to contact them personally for an answer, I hope they share it with us.

I just believe that no one is responsible to this forum if they do not wish to reply on here. I would assume they read this thread, but since so many people attacked them over 2-4 past items instead of focusing on this item, after they have authenticated properly how many thousands of items, I can assume they decided not to reply or act through Game Used Universe.

If anyone really cares, I would recommend calling MEARS and asking questions that we are all dying to know the answers to. The phone numbers can be found on the MEARS Auctions web site.

Expecting them to reply on a forum (or possibly even email) is most likely not going to happen. They have their own forum, and if anyone was really concerned I assume they should have posted there from the start unless they just were looking to smear the MEARS name.

They may deserve it on this one, I don't know all the facts but I hope someone finds them.

[Mark17]

MEARS doesn't have to read this forum, no one makes any auction house read this forum. I'm sure they know about this discussion, but they do not have to come to this forum to respond.

I'm not sure what your point is. First, we agree they are likely aware of this forum and discussion, as two of their high-profile people have already responded, one contacting Chris directly, and the other deciding to make a major adjustment in his involvement with the company.

We also agree they don't have to come to this forum to respond..... But since the members of this forum are either customers or potential customers of their items or services, one would think it would be worth their time to give some sort of explanation. Let's put it this way: Dave and Dave thought so.

Sometimes silence is the loudest response of all.

[Bravesfan]

MEARS doesn't have to read this forum, no one makes any auction house read this forum. I'm sure they know about this discussion, but they do not have to come to this forum to respond.

We do not know who or how much this jacket was bought for. We do not know if they were contacted or if the seller was contacted and reneged on an eBay deal.


Um, you may want to read this http://www.network54.com/Forum/426247/message/1288635787/MEARS+Policy+and+the+Maravich+Shooting+Jacket
Here is part of it:
"To begin with, I feel that contacting the E-Bay seller and offering $4,000 if the transaction fails to go through for an item that had just been sold for $200, baited the seller into canceling the transaction. The jacket was listed on E-Bay, and as a public selling forum well known to MEARS personnel, MEARS personnel had a chance to bid and win the item within the spirit and intent of both E-Bays policy and the ethical guidelines that MEARS personnel are to buy product under. This did not happen and I can offer no excuse or justification for this nor will I attempt to as I was not invloved in the purcahse."

[Jags Fan Dan]

That is some pretty damning stuff from Grob. Wow!:eek:

[subway22]

Do I feel that Mears should have done more research on the jacket before putting it in their auction? Absolutely..

But Im really disappointed that someone from the Mears staff contacted the Ebay seller AFTER the auction was completed and offered them more money for the jacket. I'd be upset if I was the original winner indeed. If Mears won an Ebay auction and then someone came in afterwards and offered 5 times that, I'd bet Mears would be really upset. On the other hand, when you purchase something off of Ebay, thats a contract. A contract that says you HAVE to pay for that item. The same kind of contract Mears has when you win one of their auctions. The fact Mears broke that contract with another member on Ebay, completely contradicted themselves on all levels. Its ok to for them to break rules elsewhere(ebay), but dont expect to break their rules on their site!

Not cool on Mears' part. Makes them look really bad all around. Very disappointed...

[trsent]

I'm not sure what your point is. First, we agree they are likely aware of this forum and discussion, as two of their high-profile people have already responded, one contacting Chris directly, and the other deciding to make a major adjustment in his involvement with the company.

We also agree they don't have to come to this forum to respond..... But since the members of this forum are either customers or potential customers of their items or services, one would think it would be worth their time to give some sort of explanation. Let's put it this way: Dave and Dave thought so.

Sometimes silence is the loudest response of all.

I don't blame you or anyone else. The whole situation is very confusing to me also. I would use some caution, but not much more than usual. Prior to this situation this company has an amazing certification record.

One Dave I do not believe works for MEARS Auctions and the other Dave it appears is quitting if I understood his post. They replied, but the main player has not and I am not going to ask him why - Call him or email him if you really want to hear answers.


Um, you may want to read this http://www.network54.com/Forum/426247/message/1288635787/MEARS+Policy+and+the+Maravich+Shooting+Jacket
Here is part of it:
"To begin with, I feel that contacting the E-Bay seller and offering $4,000 if the transaction fails to go through for an item that had just been sold for $200, baited the seller into canceling the transaction. The jacket was listed on E-Bay, and as a public selling forum well known to MEARS personnel, MEARS personnel had a chance to bid and win the item within the spirit and intent of both E-Bays policy and the ethical guidelines that MEARS personnel are to buy product under. This did not happen and I can offer no excuse or justification for this nor will I attempt to as I was not invloved in the purcahse."

"This did not happen..." - Was he saying this didn't happen or did he mean this shouldn't happen?

This forum accused an individual of being the buyer, who said they weren't. I wonder if Dave Grob was quoting Robert to know of this transaction or if he had discussed with with Troy before making these statements.

I am just confused as by MEARS not replying, I wonder if Dave Grob confirmed what he wrote with Troy as being true. Could the eBay seller have contracted MEARS about buying the item and they offered $4000.00 not knowing it was listed on eBay? No one has addressed this possibility - Just a flat out accusation that they contacted the seller and offered him twenty times the sale price.

Could be true, but Dave Grob didn't verify this, he just repeated what Robert had accused the wrong person of doing. If it is confirmed that MEARS attacked an honest sale through eBay, shame on them as we would never approve of such activity. Yes, a statement from Troy would be nice, but after some comments in this discussion they may not be reading this thread anymore. Even if they are, they may feel replying not to be the answer.

I keep saying, if anyone is really concerned, the MEARS contact phone numbers can be found on their auction web site. Call them and ask for answers. I think we would all love to hear them.

[cigarman44]

I don't blame you or anyone else. The whole situation is very confusing to me also. I would use some caution, but not much more than usual. Prior to this situation this company has an amazing certification record.

One Dave I do not believe works for MEARS Auctions and the other Dave it appears is quitting if I understood his post. They replied, but the main player has not and I am not going to ask him why - Call him or email him if you really want to hear answers.



"This did not happen..." - Was he saying this didn't happen or did he mean this shouldn't happen?

This forum accused an individual of being the buyer, who said they weren't. I wonder if Dave Grob was quoting Robert to know of this transaction or if he had discussed with with Troy before making these statements.

I am just confused as by MEARS not replying, I wonder if Dave Grob confirmed what he wrote with Troy as being true. Could the eBay seller have contracted MEARS about buying the item and they offered $4000.00 not knowing it was listed on eBay? No one has addressed this possibility - Just a flat out accusation that they contacted the seller and offered him twenty times the sale price.

Could be true, but Dave Grob didn't verify this, he just repeated what Robert had accused the wrong person of doing. If it is confirmed that MEARS attacked an honest sale through eBay, shame on them as we would never approve of such activity. Yes, a statement from Troy would be nice, but after some comments in this discussion they may not be reading this thread anymore. Even if they are, they may feel replying not to be the answer.

I keep saying, if anyone is really concerned, the MEARS contact phone numbers can be found on their auction web site. Call them and ask for answers. I think we would all love to hear them.

I believe him saying "this did not happen" was in response to the sentence right before that, "The jacket was listed on E-Bay, and as a public selling forum well known to MEARS personnel, MEARS personnel had a chance to bid and win the item within the spirit and intent of both E-Bays policy and the ethical guidelines that MEARS personnel are to buy product under."

[trsent]

I believe him saying "this did not happen" was in response to the sentence right before that, "The jacket was listed on E-Bay, and as a public selling forum well known to MEARS personnel, MEARS personnel had a chance to bid and win the item within the spirit and intent of both E-Bays policy and the ethical guidelines that MEARS personnel are to buy product under."

Where is Chris Nerat to do some investigating? Oh he stopped writing and went to Texas.

Too much speculation here. Someone pick up the phone and get some real answers.

[otismalibu]

Could the eBay seller have contracted MEARS about buying the item and they offered $4000.00 not knowing it was listed on eBay? No one has addressed this possibility

That's probably what happened. Thanks for floating another possible scenario that everyone missed.

It's also possible that Joel was one of the Simpson jurors. In fact, I've not seen any evidence to suggest he wasn't.

[trsent]

That's probably what happened. Thanks for floating another possible scenario that everyone missed.

It's also possible that Joel was one of the Simpson jurors. In fact, I've not seen any evidence to suggest he wasn't.

Jessica or OJ? I'll give you a clue, I have not been to Las Vegas in three years if that helps.

[rose14]

I highly doubt that this Ebay seller decided after the fact of selling it on Ebay for only $200 that it was worth more and then decided to contact MEARS and offer it to them for $4k. Think about it, if the seller thought it was worth more they would have put a reserve on it or if they found it it was worth more during the auction they would have cancelled the auction before it ended. I am sure that this seller was floored when they were offered 20 times the price than what they just sold it for on Ebay.

If I was the winning bidder on Ebay, I would contact the circuit clerk in the county that the seller resides in and file a claim in small claims courts for the amount that MEARS sold the jersey for. Small claims in some states will let you file a claim up to $6k before it turns to civil court, it just depends on the state. Some states even let you file the claim through the mail but you would just have to appear for the court date.

Could the eBay seller have contracted MEARS about buying the item and they offered $4000.00 not knowing it was listed on eBay? No one has addressed this possibility That's probably what happened. Thanks for floating another possible scenario that everyone missed.

[CollectGU]

Could the eBay seller have contracted MEARS about buying the item and they offered $4000.00 not knowing it was listed on eBay? No one has addressed this possibility That's probably what happened. Thanks for floating another possible scenario that everyone missed.

Actually I contacted the seller thru ebay asking who they sold it tomnand they stated that it was not their jacket, see my post, they stated - "The jacket I had turned out to be a fake. Not mine". obviously it appears they are lying for fear of any reprisal.

Dave

[both-teams-played-hard]

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=31629

The MEARS LOO and the description from Robert Edwards states that this WU was worn by Maravich. If it was listed as a salesman sample or a prototype, there would be nothing to talk about.
Still, a superb garment.
I would really like to know the history of this piece.

[DeacDoug]

It's time for the FBI to visit these guys. They buy low and sell high with their own authentication. Conflict of interest. My Lou Lampson letters are beginning to look better and better.

[Roady]

This hobby is rife with conflict of interest.

[PAC]

The next auction house to cut & paste Wiki for their item description should be publicly caned.

This is my favorite part.

Although unsuccessful in our attempts to find an exact photo match, what the above (research) did provide us was style matches of Jackets worn by the Jazz from 1975-78.

Read that 3 times and you'll suffer a Percy Harvin. So they style matched it to something that doesn't match. Brilliant!

Somewhere, Lou Lampson is laughing so hard, he just blew a seam out of his plaid shirt. A shirt, I might ad, that I've style matched to one that Sean Connery wore during an ET interview in 1986. Thus making Lou Lampson, everyone's favorite James Bond.

LOL