Grey Flannel Carlton Jersey

[hblakewolf]

Forum readers-

Last year, Hunt Auctions offered a 1977 Phillies Carlton road jersey in their auction. It was described as all original. A fellow Forum reader won it and sent it to me for my inspection. Although not noted in the original description, there was a faint outline of another name written in the collar next to the original chain-stitched CARLTON. Likewise, the nameplate on back was not original. It appeared as though someone had tried to take various letters from several road nameplates, and make the name CARLTON. As a result, the C and A were not correctly angled. It should be noted that the Phillies were known to send their game jerseys down to their various minor league teams for additional use. Once discovered, the buyer contacted David Hunt and the folks at MEARS with these issues. As per the MEARS guidelines, a full refund was made to the buyer. The jersey was then relisted in the next Hunts auction, with these issues clearly noted.

I have been contacted by two Forum Readers about my thoughts on the 1977 Carlton jersey in the current Grey Flannel auction. It appears to be the same jersey (can't see the NIC), based upon the year/set and also the inconsistencies with the name plate. I have contacted the folks at Grey Flannel, and informed them of not only the history with this jersey, but also the fact that this jersey was sold at Hunts with the problems noted. Their listing makes no mention of these issues, and identifies the jersey as all original. As of this post, I have not heard back.

I have already been part of one Forum reader’s heartache with this jersey, and I would hate to have this happen again. Although it is a real Carlton Phillies jersey, it does have alterations that should be made aware to any potential buyer. If you have any questions on this or any Phillies jersey, please let me know.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

Here is the Grey Flannel listing:



http://www.greyflannelauctions.com/lotimages/4031.jpg
http://www.greyflannelauctions.com/lotimages/4031c.jpg
http://www.greyflannelauctions.com/lotimages/4031t.jpg


1977 Steve Carlton Philadelphia Phillies Game-Used Road Jersey
Lot # 220

Known simply as "Lefty," Steve Carlton was one of the most successful pitchers in the modern era. In his 23-year career he recorded six 20-win seasons. He was the league leader in wins five times, led in ERA in 1972, and led in strikeouts five seasons. Carlton was named to the All-Star team ten times, and was the first pitcher to win four Cy Young Awards. He also had a 3.22 lifetime ERA to go with his 329 wins. On the left front tail of this blue road zippered front jersey is the "Wilson" manufacturer's size 46 tag. Below that is a striptag with "77 2" embroidered on it. On the inside back collar is a striptag with "Carlton" embroidered on it. On the left breast of the jersey is the Phillies "P" logo. On the right breast and on the back is the player number "32." Across the back is "CARLTON" on a blue nameplate. All lettering and numbering is done in burgundy on white tackle twill. The jersey shows nice game-use and appears to have no alterations of any kind.
Reserve Price: $1,000

Current Bid: $0

Current Time: August 07, 2006 04:22:09 PM

http://www.greyflannelauctions.com/images/spacer.gif

[sportscentury]

Hi, Howard:

I contacted Grey Flannel about this immediately after I saw it. Richie Russek got back to me last night saying that he would recheck it and correct the problem. I'm not sure if the consignor (who was presumably the winner of this jersey when it was re-auctioned at Hunts) was forthcoming about the problems with the nameplate when he consigned it to GFC (that is, I don't know what was said between the consignor and GFC when the jersey was consigned).

Best,
Reid

[trsent]

Let me see if I can reiterate the patter here.

Reid emails Grey Flannel and receives a reply.

Howard emails Grey Flannel and doesn't receive a reply.

Howard, Reid is your friend, if you have problems you should have Reid contact them over it as I have told you time and time again, your emails are not read or addressed with Grey Flannel at this time due to personal issues between you and The Boss.

Oh but wait, you know your emails will not be addressed and you like being able to post on this forum any issues you have knowing your emails will not be addressed.

This continuing discussion from thread to thread reminds me of a REM song, one of my favorites:

Pop Song 89 by R.E.M.

Hello, I saw you, I know you, I knew you
I think I can remember your name...name
Hello I’m sorry, I lost myself
I think I thought you were someone else

Should we talk about the weather? (Hi...hi, hi)
Should we talk about the government? (Hi...hi, hi, hi)

Hello, how are you? I know you, I knew you
I think I can remember your name...name
Hello, I’m sorry I lost myself
I think I thought you were someone else

Should we talk about the weather? (Hi...hi, hi)
Should we talk about the government? (Hi...hi, hi, hi)

Hello my friend, are you visible today?
You know I never knew that it could be so strange...strange
Hello, I’m sorry, I lost myself
I think I thought you were someone else

Should we talk about the weather? (Hi...hi, hi)
Should we talk about the government? (Hi...hi, hi, hi)

[sportscentury]

Joel,

Are you trying to irritate me? If Howard contacted Grey Flannel and did not get a response, what more can he do? I'm not his gopher, nor does he expect me to be. You made an offer to Howard to contact Grey Flannel for him. I did not make such an offer, nor am I interested in doing so. Can you blame him for not taking you up on your offer, given your recent ridiculous exchanges on the forum?

Please leave me out of your squabble with Howard. After the utter insanity with the other forum member a couple of weeks back, I refuse to be involved in this kind of thing (my head is still spinning from my brief and unpleasant visit to bizarro world). Howard and you are both my friends, but please leave me out of whatever is going on between you two.

With that said, Richie got back to me in a very timely fashion (I emailed him on a Sunday and he got back to me the same day). He said he'd look into it and resolve the issue. I trust his word that he will.

Reid

[b.heagy]

Let me see if I can reiterate the patter here.

Reid emails Grey Flannel and receives a reply.

Howard emails Grey Flannel and doesn't receive a reply.

Howard, Reid is your friend, if you have problems you should have Reid contact them over it as I have told you time and time again, your emails are not read or addressed with Grey Flannel at this time due to personal issues between you and The Boss.

Oh but wait, you know your emails will not be addressed and you like being able to post on this forum any issues you have knowing your emails will not be addressed.

This continuing discussion from thread to thread reminds me of a REM song, one of my favorites:

Pop Song 89 by R.E.M.

Hello, I saw you, I know you, I knew you
I think I can remember your name...name
Hello I’m sorry, I lost myself
I think I thought you were someone else

Should we talk about the weather? (Hi...hi, hi)
Should we talk about the government? (Hi...hi, hi, hi)

Hello, how are you? I know you, I knew you
I think I can remember your name...name
Hello, I’m sorry I lost myself
I think I thought you were someone else

Should we talk about the weather? (Hi...hi, hi)
Should we talk about the government? (Hi...hi, hi, hi)

Hello my friend, are you visible today?
You know I never knew that it could be so strange...strange
Hello, I’m sorry, I lost myself
I think I thought you were someone else

Should we talk about the weather? (Hi...hi, hi)
Should we talk about the government? (Hi...hi, hi, hi)





Howard is simply following the rules of this forum. You pointed this out in a previous thread about a Yaz bat. I have found Howard's posts on many items very interesting and informative as I am sure many others have. I say - THANK YOU HOWARD FOR BRINGING QUESTIONABLE ITEMS TO THE ATTENTION OF THE FORUM.

[trsent]

Ok, so Howard knows he will not have his emails to Grey Flannel read, but he continues to email them.

Why? So he can pick on them on this forum knowing they will not respond but he likes to pick on them.

Maybe Howard needs to find a way to make peace with Grey Flannel (good luck dealing with that big head) but he is following the forum rules to a T, but he knows he will never receive a response to his inquiry so he is just putting Grey Flannel up for show every time he does it because he doesn't like how he has been treated by the company in the past.

Oh well, next?

I applaud Howard's efforts to find questions about items. I just don't like that he wastes his time emailing them the issues knowing that his emails are generally not read over there due to his past problems with the head of the company.

I have no finical gain in this debate, but when will Howard take a step forward to work with the company (even if it means through a liaison) to help the industry instead of picking on one targeted seller?

[b.heagy]

Forgive me Joel if I am missing something. In Howards original post (from this thread) There are positive points such as Hunt Auctions re-selling the item with the correct info and MEARS refunding the winning bidders money. 2 Very positive points - good for the hobby. I see no negativity to Grey Flannel. I am still new to this forum so I do not know the history between the two of you or with Grey Flannel. So the item in question happens to be offered by Grey Flannel but was originally offered by Hunt. I dont see negative in this. Only a positive thread making potential bidders aware that there are issues with the item. If I would be interested in purchasing this piece I would be grateful to know what I was buying before I found out too late.

[hblakewolf]

Joel-I echo exactly the same feeling as Reid. I'm not sure why you feel compelled to be involved with my personal dealings and in particular, my communication with Grey Flannel.

As a 20+ year uniform collector specializing in Phillies equipment, I receive quite a few emails each week seeking my advice and insight on various jerseys and Philadelphia items. In this particular case, I have seen the jersey in question and know quite a bit about the problems associated with it. Grey Flannel indicates that the shirt “appears to have no alterations of any kind”, however, this is simply rubbish. I have given Grey Flannel a fair opportunity to provide insight on this jersey BEFORE I came onto the Forum with my post. Over 24 hours have passed without a response. A fellow Forum reader paid over $7,000 for this exact shirt with Hunts last year, and later discovered it had the described problems. The collector was able to obtain a complete refund, as it had a MEARS LOA and as such, they guarantee the authenticity or your money back. Per Grey Flannels printed information for this auction, “Return Policy- ALL LOTS ARE SOLD AS IS. ALL SALES ARE FINAL. NO RETURNS. Each and every lot in this auction has been viewed by a minimum of two hobby experts.” Some experts!

Any auction house must be accountable for the items they offer and be willing to address issues BEFORE collectors place a bid on a NON REFUNDABLE ITEM. Should a collector win this Carlton jersey and later discover these problems, what recourse is there? I have had similar questions about Phillies items with some of the biggest auction houses including Vintage Authentics and most recently Lelands, and receive feedback most often the same day. I just questioned a Pete Rose jacket here on the Forum offered by Lelands, and Mike Heffner not only responded, but also indicated he would investigate and take corrective actions if necessary.

Joel, let me be very clear with you. I have NEVER sought your assistance or desire your involvement with my business in any capacity, shape or form, nor do I desire to communicate with you today, tomorrow, or next week. I'm sure other Forum readers find your off the wall rants amusing, however, your asinine behavior has worn extremely thin with me.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net




Joel,

Are you trying to irritate me? If Howard contacted Grey Flannel and did not get a response, what more can he do? I'm not his gopher, nor does he expect me to be. You made an offer to Howard to contact Grey Flannel for him. I did not make such an offer, nor am I interested in doing so. Can you blame him for not taking you up on your offer, given your recent ridiculous exchanges on the forum?

Please leave me out of your squabble with Howard. After the utter insanity with the other forum member a couple of weeks back, I refuse to be involved in this kind of thing (my head is still spinning from my brief and unpleasant visit to bizarro world). Howard and you are both my friends, but please leave me out of whatever is going on between you two.

With that said, Richie got back to me in a very timely fashion (I emailed him on a Sunday and he got back to me the same day). He said he'd look into it and resolve the issue. I trust his word that he will.

Reid

[b.heagy]

Given past history good or bad. Emails should be read and responded to (in my opinion). If there are good points and valid information then I believe that should be taken into consideration. If emails are sent to the company in hopes of pointing something out that may have been missed - then that is trying to help/work with the company. If there is no correction and the item sells and is found out later not be what it was presented to be then it is the auction company that gets the bad rap or has the headache.

[Number9]

Hi Howard,
Great info, thanks.
A question, if you dont mind. When you saw the jersey, how obvious was the nameplate restoration on back, as far as old stitch lines etc?
It concerns me as a potential Grey Flannel bidder that they would not notice this. No matter how many lots you have, I would think you would hold each jersey up to the light and check for restorations/changes before you list them as all-original. Is it obvious on this jersey, or perhaps not at all and therefore understandable that they did not catch it?
Thanks.

Mike

[hblakewolf]

Mike-
I did not see any stitch holes, however, the lettering on the name was somewhat fresher than the #'s/P and a clear indication that something was wrong. The letters on the name are not correctly arched, especially the C. I have seen this before, when someone has access to quite a few nameplates (the Phillies pull them off the jerseys before sending them down to the minors) and pulls random letters from quite a few to try to make a new plate. The problem, however, is that Wilson custom cuts each letter to make a perfect arch shape.

Likewise, there is another name written in the collar next to the original CARLTON, as is the practice when these were re-issued to another minor league player.

What I find interesting is that Grey Flannel claims to be ""The Standard of the Industry" and in this particular case, had 2 "Experts" authenticate this. I might suggest they find 2 new authenticators and/or buy a few more Halogen lights.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[Number9]

Hi Howard,
Good info, thanks.


Mike

[trsent]

Howard, you do remember an email you sent Richie at Grey Flannel telling him you don't want to see another People's Court episode and Ritchie's reply?

I am in your business with this one, I am a regular on this forum and I have told you time and time again - GREY FLANNEL HATES YOU.

HOWARD WOLF - DO NOT BOTHER EMAILING YOUR GENUINE (AND HONEST) CONCERNS BECAUSE YOUR EMAILS ARE IGNORED BECAUSE YOU HAVE CROSSED THE LINE WITH GREY FLANNEL AND NOW THEY RATHER IGNORE YOU THAN SCREW WITH YOU ANYMORE.

I offered for you to email your concerns to me and I'll pass them to the right people, but you don't want to do that. You want to continue to email Grey Flannel so you can post on here your issues BECAUSE YOU KNOW YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE A REPLY FROM AN EMAIL TO GREY FLANNEL.

Your concerns each and every time are genuine, but it seems you know you have been blacklisted by a company for insulting the owner, and they just ignore you but you keep trying to communicate with them.

If a car salesman tongue and cheek asked you if you found a job yet (because I see you have nothing better to do all day) I know I'd go to another car lot. When a major auction house did this to you personally, you kept coming back for more.

I OFFERED FOR THE GOOD OF THE INDUSTRY TO RELAY YOUR MESSAGES AND YOU IGNORED MY REQUEST. IS YOUR BIDDER NUMBER EVEN VALID WITH GREY FLANNEL ANYMORE TO PLACE BIDS? I TRIED TO HELP AND YOU WHINE LIKE A BABY BECAUSE ALL YOU WANT TO DO IS SMEAR GREY FLANNEL EVERY CHANCE YOU GET BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT LOOKING FOR THE GOOD OF THE HOBBY - YOU ARE LOOKING TO SPEAR GREY FLANNEL'S NAME.

I know it and you know it. I enjoy reading your posts, but if you want to better the hobby work with me and not against me. Remember, I have always considered you a friend.

[trsent]

I was thinking, "Why do I care about Howard Wolf and/or Grey Flannel" and you know what I decided?

Who cares?

Howard, your prayers have been answered, I'll drop the whole conversation. I thought you wanted to make this hobby a better place, but you appear only wanting to throw more dirt on the pile. I have offered to work with you, but you do not want that. You want to be ignored so you can post on GUU's Forum your issues which may or may not lead to having the issue true issues resolved.

I do not care anymore.

Eric, can you please erase any post I have made in this thread? They are pointless and should be removed.

[Eric]

After talking with Mr. Alpert, I'm going to leave Joel's posts in the thread. Thanks Joel for offering to help in this area, but as we agreed perhaps you should no longer respond to this thread.
Eric

[sportscentury]

After talking with Mr. Alpert, I'm going to leave Joel's posts in the thread. Thanks Joel for offering to help in this area, but as we agreed perhaps you should no longer respond to this thread.
Eric

So............. I take it I should look elsewhere for my favorite song lyrics? Okay, I will hit up some other threads. :)

Reid

[trsent]

So............. I take it I should look elsewhere for my favorite song lyrics? Okay, I will hit up some other threads. :)

Reid

Eric, I would like the record to show that I still wish you would edit and remove my posts as requested above, but there is no point for me to continue. I also want the record to show that I contacted Eric about this thread and I was not disciplined to no longer post about the topic at top. It was my decision for the better sleeping at nights of myself and Howard Wolf.

As for Mr. Fontaine, all the showing of records does is make me wanna dance....

Last dance, last chance for love
Yes, it's my last chance, for romance tonight
I need you by me, beside me, to guide me
To hold me, to scold me
'Cause when I'm bad I'm so, so bad

So let's dance the last dance
Let's dance the last dance
Let's dance this last dance tonight

Last dance, last chance for love
Yes, it's my last chance, for romance tonight
I need you by me, beside me, to guide me
To hold me, to scold me
'Cause when I'm bad I'm so, so bad

So let's dance the last dance
Let's dance the last dance
Let's dance this last dance tonight

Oh, I need you by me
To guide me, to guide me
To hold me, to scold me
'Cause when I'm bad I'm so, so bad

So, come on baby, dance that dance
Come on baby, dance that dance
Come on baby, let's dance tonight

[kingjammy24]

howard,
a few questions:

- from your description, i take it you believe this was an original, legit carlton jersey that was sent down to the minors and then had the nob restored. the pictures indicate that the phillies logo, button area, and manufacturer's tag all show a huge amount of puckering yet the numbers on the back show almost none. am i not seeing things correctly or is that true? if it's true, then are the numbers on the back also not original?

- can you describe how the c & a are incorrectly arched? i understand the NOB is a standard vertical arch. to me, the c,a,o, and n all look properly arched so i'd like to know what i'm missing. (the t however looks condensed. notice how it's thinner). what's incorrect about the angles of the c and a? they look to be the same as the o and n? should the angles be steeper, etc? can you a post a pic of they should look?

re: the nameplate. you'd think ghost stitching would be visible unless the new nameplate was slightly larger to intentionally cover over the old stitch holes.

for anyone interested, below are 2 examples of vertically arched lettering and 2 examples of a standard arch. both have an arch, but the vertical arch means all the letters are straight/not angled. the standard arch angles each letter. a good vertical arch is difficult to do. a standard arch on a jersey that should have had a vertical arch sometimes indicates the nob was improperly restored.

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/3161/archpr1.jpg

rudy.

[hblakewolf]

Rudy-
The #'s/P all show a ton of use. I have attached a photo of my Carlton road. Note how all of the letters are the same width, and likewise, make a perfect arch. The C is correctly spaced/arched, etc. Maybe you can work your magic and superimpose my plate over the other.

Hope this helps.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

1276

1277

[norristrophy]

If a car salesman tongue and cheek asked you if you found a job yet (because I see you have nothing better to do all day) I know I'd go to another car lot. When a major auction house did this to you personally, you kept coming back for more.


It's tongue "in" cheek and a car salesman asking a potential buyer if they have a job seems to be a fair question given that the items they are selling potentially require significant income. That being said "Driver 8" is the best REM song. Peace.

[kingjammy24]

howard,

thanks for your reply. i do see the issue with the C now. i believe the C has actually been cut correctly but sewn on an incorrectly angle/
crookedly. without changing it's cut, i've simply rotated the angle of the C and it appears to be much more correct:

http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/2527/carltonbb7.jpg

your carlton pic definitely helped as it illustrated how tight and flawless a vertical arch is supposed to look. now i know what to look for in vertical arch nobs. i still maintain that the T is a condensed style, which was typically used to save space when lettering very long names. the t is noticeably thinner than the rest of the letters.

rudy.

[sportscentury]

Forum members,

I want to acknowledge that Grey Flannel removed this lot. I contacted them this past Sunday and they responded to me in kind on the same day. Today I see that the lot has been removed. Perhaps they will reinstate the lot with an updated description, I don't know. But it should be recognized that they took timely action to correct the situation.

Reid

...also...

Rudy,

If the letters are "real" nameplate letters (i.e., if they were cut for nameplates for real game jerseys), I would bet that your point about the "T" is correct. However, based on my close inspection of the jersey when it was in my possession, I couldn't help but wonder whether these letters were cut after the fact in order to make up the nameplate. I say this because they don't match other letters from other Phillies jerseys I've owned from that era. With that said, if they were cut after the fact, you'd think that they would match the arch pattern that Howard and you have so elegantly displayed.

In addition, there are two names written in the neck collar. One name is "Davis" and the other is less legible (see the attached scan). 1294 It can only be concluded that two minor leaguers used this jersey after the original nameplate was stripped from it and it was sent down to the minors (as was already noted, the Phillies religiously did this with their jerseys at the end of each season during the pre-1980s). As Howard said, it is a real Carlton shirt (and I actually like the shirt) but it is hard to know how much of the wear on the shirt came from Carlton (a pitcher) versus the two minor leaguers who used the shirt after it left MLB.

Reid