Future of "photo matching" will be questioned

[jake33]

Hi there fellow collector's. I just wanted to give a heads-up and my thought of what will happen with photo matching, if it hasn't already.

My mother runs a photography studio, and recently she took a photo of a young man for his senior photos, the young man had a black-eye that he wanted to be taken away from the photography, I would LOVe the show her great computer editing but without the clients premission, but it would be unethical to say the least...

When I saw the finished product, I was extremely shocked to see how amazingly flawless the results were. I asked my mother to doctor a photo of a Brett Favre game photo and to put blood and grass stains on the white jersey, she was able to color match the grass from the field and apply it, after a handlebar mustache and some more goofing around. It became apart that doctoring photos to get a "photo match" can't be that far on the horizon. Also my mother uses a slightly more expensive and advanced version of Adobe photoshop which ANYONE can easily get.

Don't think this will happen? ESPN has been doing it for years. Yes, for a recent example, did anyone notice that Bobby Abreu had a photo with a yankees jersey and cap within hours of getting traded? What they did was photoshop the stock photo of his Phillies picture. They do this all the time as I am sure many of you have already picked up on...

The problem with this industry is that it always seems to get dirtier. It is no secret that if you cna photo match a jersey the odds are the jersey will increase value. We all have heard or suspected at one point someone dirty-ing up or staining a game ISSUED jersey. Image if someone took a game issued jersey, then doctored up the jersey then edited a photo. Scarry.

What I feel would help is making SURE that someone doing a photo match can say where they got it, GETTY Images will continue to be a GREAT source. Or even a team's website. If someone says that "they took the photo themselves" it could cause concern for being weary.

If this hasn't happened yet, I have no doubt that it will happen one day. As collector's we have to stay on top of the game...

[Eric]

Jake

This is an interesting thread.

While we're talking about photomatching I was wondering if you could share with the forum members the manner in which you photomatch items.

Recently you sold a Rocco Baldelli jersey on ebay which came from Authentic Sports, a seller we have discussed on this forum.

When I mentioned to you that people (including myself) have had some problems with their items, you told me you were able to photomatch the jersey, so you weren't worried about it.

Can you tell people here on the forum how you were able to find a photomatch to the one you were selling, thus removing any worry about its authenticity.

Thanks and I look forward to hearing your response.
Eric

[skipcareyisfat]

It'd be extremely difficult to pull off in most cases, I think. There are too many things you'd have to get right for it to look good, like the angling, size and exact position of a mark(s). Also, a photo only represents one particular moment in time. Your bat or helmet, for example, will most likely show more use than the one in the picture. I've photo-matched about 10 items in my collection and there are always a few more marks on my items than in the pics.

Also, organizations like the AP, Wireimages, Getty, etc. most likely have policies against doctoring photos. In fact, a few days ago Reuters canned a photographer for doing just that. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5254838.stm) I'm personally not worried about it.

[sportscentury]

Did anyone see the story on the Reuters photographer who was fired for doctoring photographs of the war? Apparently, the doctoring he allegedly engaged in can be done (and may have been done) using Photoshop!

Here is one of the many links to this story (though I originally heard the story on MSNBC early yesterday morning and a follow-up piece was added on Photoshop and similar software):

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/07/reuters.photog.reut/index.html

Reid

[sportscentury]

In fact, a few days ago Reuters canned a photographer for doing just that. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5254838.stm) I'm personally not worried about it.

You are a faster typer!

[kingjammy24]

anyone wanna buy a pujols jersey? it's hammered with use, grass stains on the shoulder, dirt on front. it's from the game where he had a beard and big, gold pirate hoop earring.

http://img333.imageshack.us/img333/3376/pujolshv8.jpg

seriously though, i have little doubt that the actual production of any sort of doctored photo would be trivial for someone with the right skills.

if you're concerned about doctored "photo matches", then just ensure you know the details & origins of the photo being provided. every doctored photo has an undoctored original somewhere.

rudy.

[jake33]

Steve from auth sports got the photo for me

[otismalibu]

I would think the PhotoShop experts would have no problem with this. Just work from the jersey, back to the photo. Take the photo of the stain, repair, etc. and then clone that onto the photo of your choice. Voila! Photo match.

[skipcareyisfat]

I would think the PhotoShop experts would have no problem with this. Just work from the jersey, back to the photo. Take the photo of the stain, repair, etc. and then clone that onto the photo of your choice. Voila! Photo match.

Yes, but how often do modern jerseys get used enough to be repaired? And how many of them are sold unwashed? Not many. Altering a photo of a pinstriped jersey would near impossible, too, I would think. Overall, I still believe it would be difficult to pull off. But maybe it's just wishful thinking!!!

[otismalibu]

Yes, but how often do modern jerseys get used enough to be repaired? And how many of them are sold unwashed? Not many. Altering a photo of a pinstriped jersey would near impossible, too, I would think. Overall, I still believe it would be difficult to pull off. But maybe it's just wishful thinking!!!

I think that Carlton jersey that Howard was posting about would be a good example. Someone could easily take a picture of that nameplate and put it on a photo. Same with iffy numbers. Not saying this could be done with every jersey, but I think many would be an easy canvas for "creativity".

[sportscentury]

anyone wanna buy a pujols jersey? it's hammered with use, grass stains on the shoulder, dirt on front. it's from the game where he had a beard and big, gold pirate hoop earring. rudy.

Beautiful!

[Eric]

Steve from auth sports got the photo for me

Jake-

What specifically made it a photomatch?
In your ebay auction it didn't look like there were many distinguishing characteristics on the jersey.Any chance you can post a copy of the photomatch photo here?

Here's what you sold on ebay for $399.05
1295
1296

Here's the listing
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=012&item=220011597707&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1
ERIC

[skipcareyisfat]

I think that Carlton jersey that Howard was posting about would be a good example. Someone could easily take a picture of that nameplate and put it on a photo. Same with iffy numbers. Not saying this could be done with every jersey, but I think many would be an easy canvas for "creativity".

I can see that. On the other hand, someone could take a jersey to ball field, put it on, slide headfirst into second base, then take a picture of the jersey and paste the marks onto a game photo. Maybe I should keep these ideas to myself. :eek:

[jake33]

Eric, quit hounding my ass over this, I got a photo match that steve sent me off a yahoo or google search, i printed it off and sent it with the jersey, that is fine that you have a major issue with whatever comes out from steve at auth sports. I did my homework on the jersey, so did the buyer, if you are trying to imply that what I sold was fake, you only have speculation and it is founded on your past experience with the compay, yes I think Steve is an a****** too, if that makes you happy...

[Swoboda4]

The future of photomatching will have to be videotaping or the acquiring of libraries of televised games of players of your interest to eliminate photo tampering which by the below article is widespread in all fields. :
http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/doctored-war-photos-ignite-controversy/20060809171309990022?ncid=NWS00010000000001

[both-teams-played-hard]

every doctored photo has an undoctored original somewhere.


http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/6158/achimpswa9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I am offering a handsome reward for a "photo-match" of this jersey. Heck, a "photo-reference" or "style-match" is acceptable.

[Eric]

Eric, quit hounding my ass over this, I got a photo match that steve sent me off a yahoo or google search, i printed it off and sent it with the jersey, that is fine that you have a major issue with whatever comes out from steve at auth sports. I did my homework on the jersey, so did the buyer, if you are trying to imply that what I sold was fake, you only have speculation and it is founded on your past experience with the compay, yes I think Steve is an a****** too, if that makes you happy...

I'm sorry Jake, but i'm not going to stop hounding you over this. You came on this forum and were trying to sell an item from a questionable source. You then put it on ebay. I sent you an email to make sure you were selling what you thought you were selling so you didn't have problems down the road.

At first, you were shocked at my experience with Authentic Sports and asked if I had gotten my money back. Seemed like the natural and geniune response.

Then we had some more back and forth and you said you were going to talk to Steve at Authentic Sports. Then you stopped answering my emails.

It seemed you were waiting until the auction ended and you had a buyer. I kept asking you after the auction what you found out from authentic sports. You said he was able to photomatch the jersey so everything was fine.

I asked if you meant "style match" or "photo match." You said photo match and then stopped answering me again when I asked for the photo. There seems to be no distinguishing characteristics of the jersey so I wanted to know how he was able to photomatch the jersey and you said you no longer had the jersey.

However, above you said Steve sent you a photo match which you printed and sent to the buyer. So the fact that you don't have the jersey is meaningless. You can show us the photomatch, and we can compare it to the ebay photos, which I have saved.

I hope you weren't just looking to unload a possibly problematic jersey on an unsuspecting buyer. That goes against everything we stand for on this forum.

Jake, I tried to give you the information to help you learn for yourself what you had bought. Instead, you seemed to want to get it to the buyer and be done with it. If I am wrong here, please correct me. I'd be interested in hearing your point of view here.

Thanks
Eric

[jake33]

Eric, I asked steve about your problem and on the tomlinson jersey, and he gave me the run around about it and was point fingers at everyone else, and i didn't know I was obligated to give you commentary on my discussion with him. Personally, i left thinking the guy was a jackass just because of how he deals with things but does that mean the baldelli isn't real?

The only thing I questioned on the jersey was that there wan't extra length, the photo I had was only a hard copy and it had rocco with the jersey untucked showing no extra length. I answered all the questions to the buyer and they are fine with it and I can wash my hands that the jersey is genuine.

[Eric]

If you saw a photo of an untucked Baldelli jersey with no extra length- it sounds like you're describing a Style Match and not a Photo Match. A photo match means you are looking at the exact same jersey pictured in the photo. To see it's of the same length does not mean it's the same one in the picture. A photo match would show matching marks, stains, threads alignment of lettering. Doesn't sound like there's proof of that.

Also- you wrote earlier- "I got a photo match that steve sent me off a yahoo or google search, i printed it off and sent it with the jersey"

Sounds like you printed it off your computer. Is that not the case?

Eric

[jake33]

Yes, i assume it was a google or yahoo search judging by the quality of the printed off photo, photo match, style match whatever, it is acceptable to the buyer...