HOF Day - Alomar and Blyleven

[Rob L]

Congrats to Robbie and Bert. Let's see what you have!!

[twinsbb17]

1975
http://gallery.me.com/adamjhanson/100132/IMG_0932/web.jpg

1987 World Series
http://gallery.me.com/adamjhanson/100132/IMG_0975/web.jpg

[sox83cubs84]

http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/52768138.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=AF378080BBA828619F1F566230CA271FC6C74A8683C156D5 1ACD7386FF3EA728

Dave Miedema

[Rob L]

http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/52768138.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=AF378080BBA828619F1F566230CA271FC6C74A8683C156D5 1ACD7386FF3EA728

Dave Miedema

That would be an awesome gamer to own!!!!:)

[Vintagedeputy]

Maybe its just my poor memory, but Alomar just doesn't strike me as having been all that good, or at least not Hall worthy. Guess he didn't make much of an impact on me.

[David]

He was usually considered the best, or one of the best, 2nd basemen during his day (at the time), in large part due to his glove.

[Dewey2007]

I feel the same way about Blyleven. A good pitcher in his day who played on two WS winners but not really hall worthy in my opinion. Had longevity on his side more then anything. Good for him though.


Maybe its just my poor memory, but Alomar just doesn't strike me as having been all that good, or at least not Hall worthy. Guess he didn't make much of an impact on me.

[BaseballGM]

Maybe its just my poor memory, but Alomar just doesn't strike me as having been all that good, or at least not Hall worthy. Guess he didn't make much of an impact on me.

I hope this is sarcasm. If not, you must not have seen him play from 1990-2000.

[xpress34]

Congrats to Dutch and the 'Spitter'...

[vballGuy]

I hope this is sarcasm. If not, you must not have seen him play from 1990-2000.

I also hope so too. He got 90% of the freakin' votes for crying out loud.

[Rob L]

I feel the same way about Blyleven. A good pitcher in his day who played on two WS winners but not really hall worthy in my opinion. Had longevity on his side more then anything. Good for him though.

Really? Would 17 more wins make him a cinch?

[xpress34]

I feel the same way about Blyleven. A good pitcher in his day who played on two WS winners but not really hall worthy in my opinion. Had longevity on his side more then anything. Good for him though.

17 of 22 seasons - 200+ IP
8 of 22 seasons - 200+ K
242 CG and 60 SO in 22 years (that's an avg of 12 CG and 3 SO a year)
3705 K (5th all time)

His line avg for a 162 game season:

14W - 12L (.534 W %) ; 3.31 ERA ; 34 GS - 12 CG - 3 SO ; 242 IP ; 183 K

I'll take that AVG over a 22 season anyday

[Vintagedeputy]

I hope this is sarcasm. If not, you must not have seen him play from 1990-2000.

Its not sarcasm, and I'm not saying that he isn't worthy....he just wouldn't be the first name that comes to my mind if you were trying to pick HOF 2nd basemen.

[Dewey2007]

I guess I just didn't see him pitch enough but to me he was just very good over a long period of time. I just don't think of greatness when I think of Blyleven's career. I don't think you can say he was the dominant pitcher of his era or even a top 5 guy really. But who am I to say. He got in and that's all that counts. He's been waiting a long time for this so you have to be happy for the guy.

[kellsox]

17 of 22 seasons - 200+ IP
8 of 22 seasons - 200+ K
242 CG and 60 SO in 22 years (that's an avg of 12 CG and 3 SO a year)
3705 K (5th all time)

His line avg for a 162 game season:

14W - 12L (.534 W %) ; 3.31 ERA ; 34 GS - 12 CG - 3 SO ; 242 IP ; 183 K

I'll take that AVG over a 22 season anyday

Blyleven does not strike me as a hall of fame pitcher. His stats were an accumulation of being a good pitcher for an extended period of time. during that extended time i dont believe he was close to being a "feared" pitcher A 14-12 average record screams above average to me, not greatness. Seems to be getting a little easier to get into the hall of fame. He probably is a better candidate for the "hall of very good"

[BostonSportsFan]

Its not sarcasm, and I'm not saying that he isn't worthy....he just wouldn't be the first name that comes to my mind if you were trying to pick HOF 2nd basemen.

In no particular order, he ranks right up in this top 5 of the greatest 2nd basemen to ever play the game including Jackie Robinson, Rogers Hornsby, Joe Morgan, Eddie Collins and maybe Nap Lajoie. I have always seen him ranked ahead of Sandberg, Carew, etc.

In every list I have ever seen he is listed in the top 3 - 5 usually of all time by the people who study this stuff for a living.

He was a magician with a glove and at one point in the 90's was one of the top 5 players in baseball at any position when you consider he could hit for average, steal bases, incredible defense, had some pop to his bat etc.

Just my take

Joe

[mbrieve]

Blyleven does not strike me as a hall of fame pitcher. His stats were an accumulation of being a good pitcher for an extended period of time. during that extended time i dont believe he was close to being a "feared" pitcher A 14-12 average record screams above average to me, not greatness. Seems to be getting a little easier to get into the hall of fame. He probably is a better candidate for the "hall of very good"
He was only 17 wins away from being a 300 Wins and 3000 K's guy. Also, isn't longevity a sign of greatness and almost a prerequisite for the HOF? There are a lot of guys that had great 8-10 year careers and then injuries catch up with them.

[kellsox]

He was only 17 wins away from being a 300 Wins and 3000 K's guy. Also, isn't longevity a sign of greatness and almost a prerequisite for the HOF? There are a lot of guys that had great 8-10 year careers and then injuries catch up with them.

Longevity doesn't equal greatness( although it can). In blyleven's case it shows the ability to pitch consistently and avoid career/perfomance ending injury. In 22 seasons He made 2 all-star teams, finished in the top 10 in cy young voting 4 times and won 20 games 1 time. That doesnt seem like someone who is deserving of being honored as one of baseballs all time greats.

[ahuff]

You can use this to see how Blyleven stacks up against other great/future HOF players. I was shocked to see how close he was to Maddux in many of the categories.

http://www.bertbelongs.com/pages/pitchers_duel.html

[Sincityson]

To appreciate Alomar, one had to see him play day in & day out. His fielding skills as a second baseman were incredible.


I hope this is sarcasm. If not, you must not have seen him play from 1990-2000.

[Rob L]

Longevity doesn't equal greatness( although it can). In blyleven's case it shows the ability to pitch consistently and avoid career/perfomance ending injury. In 22 seasons He made 2 all-star teams, finished in the top 10 in cy young voting 4 times and won 20 games 1 time. That doesnt seem like someone who is deserving of being honored as one of baseballs all time greats.

I think his W-L record would have been much better if he hadn't been on crappy teams the majority of his career. Hell, The Big Train would have blown Cy Youngs win record out of the water if the Senators were remotely decent during his time. Too be really shallow, his strike out total deserves the moniker of "great".

[Rob L]

BTW, I was hoping this would be a "show your Alomar and Blyleven GU items" thread. The moderators need to move this to the General Sports Discussion forum.

[Mark17]

I guess I just didn't see him pitch enough but to me he was just very good over a long period of time. I just don't think of greatness when I think of Blyleven's career. I don't think you can say he was the dominant pitcher of his era or even a top 5 guy really. But who am I to say. He got in and that's all that counts. He's been waiting a long time for this so you have to be happy for the guy.

Define "dominant." The most dominating thing a pitcher can do to a batter is to strikle him out. The most dominating thing a pitcher can do to a team (besides no-hitting them, which Bert did once) is shut them out.

Bert ranks 5th all-time in strikeouts (3701) and ninth all-time in shutouts (60).

The shutouts ranking is particularly impressive because of all the pitchers who broke into the big leagues since 1942, the leaders are Ryan (61), Seaver (61), and Bert (60.)

[5kRunner]

Alomar is a hall of famer in my book. He was probably the best 2b in baseball for a decade.

I've always been on the fence about Blyleven. I agree his career stats seem to make hime a hall of famer. The strikeouts and shutouts are impressive. But the one stat I can't seem to turn away from is that he was an all-star only twice. A legit hall of fame in my mind should be a fixture on the all-star team. But, I don't vote, so who cares. He's a hall of famer now.

Congrats to them both.

[xpress34]

I'm just going to say this on the 'All-Star' scale that everyone seems to want to throw around... rating on a guy (especially current players) on how many All-Star games they make is a joke, since fans have voted for them since 1970.

Fans vote for who is POPULAR - not who deserves to go. This was really highlighted last year when Jimmy Rollins was in the lead for SS in the NL despite having only played in 12 games due to injuries.

Most fans who vote pay no attention to actual stats and simply vote because they like a player, so the players's shouldn't be punished in their HOF selection because of FAN voting.

Even GOLD GLOVES won is becoming a popularity contest and is no longer based on what it was intended to be based on - the players DEFENSE. Examples? How about a guy being discussed in another thread - Rafael Palmeiro winning the Gold Glove at 1st after only playing like a 1/4 of the season there? Another? I'll use Jimmy Rollins again. In 2007 Troy Tulowitzki had the HIGHEST Fielding % of ANY player in the Majors. Not just SS and not just NL, but every position in both leagues. Why didn't he win the GG? Because the writers said, "A Rookie has NEVER won the Gold Glove and a Rookie won't win it this year either". When asked why Rollins won it, there was a comment made about his HRs and such... when did OFFENSIVE numbers contribute to a DEFENSIVE award? Give him the Silver Slugger, but Tulo should have had the GG.

Sorry for the rant, but I get a little worked up when awards/honors that are now just popularity contests are used to rate players on their careers.

To put it all in perspective - Dick Allen was one of (if not the best) 1B of his era - and a multi time All-Star - and he's not in the HOF. Why? Because he didn't like the press (i.e. BWAA) and they paid him back in kind but not giving him the votes.

- Smitty

[kellsox]

In the case of Blyleven the amount of all star appearances are telling because pitchers are not picked by fans

[Mark17]

In the case of Blyleven the amount of all star appearances are telling because pitchers are not picked by fans


Using that logic, maybe Nolan Ryan shouldn't be in the Hall then, since he played in just 5 All Star games in his 27 year career.

[5kRunner]

Using that logic, maybe Nolan Ryan shouldn't be in the Hall then, since he played in just 5 All Star games in his 27 year career.

Unless I can't count. Nolan Ryan was an All Star 8 times.

[Mark17]

Unless I can't count. Nolan Ryan was an All Star 8 times.

It's either you or Retrosheet.org:

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/R/Pryann001.htm

1973, 1979, 1981, 1985, 1989

[Fnazxc0114]

Im glad to see blyleven get in

[5kRunner]

It's either you or Retrosheet.org:

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/R/Pryann001.htm

1973, 1979, 1981, 1985, 1989

I think those are just the games he actually played in. He was an all star '72, '75, & '77 as well.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/ryanno01.shtml

[earlywynnfan]

How about we bring this thread back with the original purpose?? I'm sure you guys have some items from these two, esp. Alomar. I have a couple of bats of his, plus a game worn jersey that he wore versus KC one year.

For Blyleven, I have the signed lineup and batting cards from his 200th win, and what I feel is the best auto'd Blyleven ball out there. It's covered with stats on 3 lobes; he did this without me even asking at a show in Pittsburgh a few years ago. He seemed impressed because I told him I drove all the way from Cleveland to see him. He convieniently left the 4th panel blank, which I had hand-painted.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com