The ethics of flipping an item

[gingi79]

I know a few of you collect hockey gamers and if you do, the odds are you may have come across a squabble on another game worn jersey site regarding the immediate flipping of a jersey for very large profit. I'll start by giving you some details:

MeiGray does something I think unique to the hobby. They allow collectors to send in wish lists for jerseys you would be interested in obtaining. They have this list and allow people to submit their wants WITHOUT HAVING TO PUT A DEPOSIT. Now I don't want to go off topic too far here but you really have to admire the fact MeiGray offers this service. MeiGray will contact you, in the order a want has been received when said jersey arrives. Don't like the price, lost interest, can't afford it now? Simply pass and they move on to the next collector on the list.
So when the NJ Devils announced they would wear their initial NJ colored sweaters (Green rather than black stripes is the main difference really.) Devil collectors I am sure bombarded Barry and Co. with wants for specific players.

So now you know the back story even though it is not essential to the debate at hand. I thought it brought up a great topic for discussion (and admittedly some debate if we are open to listening) so here is the story:

The Devils wore one set of throwback jerseys in 2 games last season. MeiGray had a deal with them to obtain said shirts and market them to the collecting public. It is announced that the set is now available and that they will be contacting previously requested wish lists with first dibs. This is done, jerseys are sold, end of MeiGray participation.

Much like any other team, the NJ Devils have a lot of fans. Let's remember that the word "fan" is short for "fanatic" I honestly believe that while we are fanatical about our teams, the word was shortened because it comes off as a little insane, creepy and scary to say "I have fanatical emotions about this team!!!!" Due to the large pool of Devil fans and the very short number of actual jerseys worn, many people were not able to obtain the jersey they wanted at what I am told were extremely fair prices. Annnnd that's where the drama begins......

Almost 24 hours to the second after they were sold out, one of them was put up for sale at a price that was much higher than the published initial sale price. (There are small details I am omitting like the fact a photomatched stick from the same player and same game was also included and while it seems important, it really isn't relevant to the issue at hand. The player is not top tier and therefore while the stick would be great for a player collector, many jersey collectors have no interest in sticks and vice versa.)

If you are still reading and wondering what the point is, here ya go. I have a lot of opinions to share but I would rather hear yours first. I am going to ask that you NOT hold back your opinions because I think this is one of those major questions in our hobby that is never really answered successfully.

When is flipping a jersey considered unethical? Did the collector really do anything wrong? Do other collectors have any right to be upset?

[Masimen]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

In my opinion, once you own an item, it is yours to do as you wish. Flip it, wear it, use it, cut it up into little pieces for cards (which is a bummer,but still it's their item), give it away, whatever. As long as the item wasn't obtained in an unethical manner ie. stealing or collusion, then everything else is fair game. If you make a buck on an item then good for you.

Almost everything we purchase in our lives is marked up for a profit. That is how business works. Is the person selling the jersey for a profit any different then Mei Grey? Mei Grey purchased the Jersey and immediately sold it for a profit and now so is the person who purchased it from Mei Grey. Just because Mei Grey does this as their sole means of business doesn't make it any better or worse than a collector doing it on the side.

I recently purchased a game used item I had been in search of for a couple of years. I found one I liked, purchased it and then discovered the particular item I purchased was far more significant than either the seller or I thought because of when it was used. It was a rather expensive item (for me anyway) and since the discovery I have had the opportunity to nearly quadruple my investment. If i weren't so attached to the item and if it didn't come from a player that I collect I would sell it in a heartbeat and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Had I been on the other end of that deal and sold something and then the buyer discovered it was far more valuable than what I sold it for and he made a huge profit, I would only be angry at myself for not doing the homework on the item.

I am not saying I am right by any means, this is just how I feel.

[trsent]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

When is flipping a jersey considered unethical? Did the collector really do anything wrong? Do other collectors have any right to be upset?

People will always be jealous, but if someone buys a jersey from MeiGray, and they want to list it for sale at a higher price, they have that right. Free enterprise, fair open market. Two tears in a bucket...

I don't know what the debate it. Do people not like the fact that MeiGray is taking requests to people who may flip an item? They should have emailed MeiGray and asked for the same item if that is an option, and maybe offered more?

I have been a sports memorabilia dealer myself since my mid-teens. I am always looking to buy new inventory by any reasonable and ethical means. Buying from MeiGray fits this category.

[Mulligans]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

Seriously......why wouldn't you want to maximize your potential? I couldn't afford to buy anything for my collection if I wasn't making as much money as possible on the side.

When I buy a coke for 24 cents and sell it for a buck am I doing something unethical and offending the coca cola corporation in any way? I don't think coke has a problem with it!

[mbrieve]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

The previous posters have already covered my thoughts exactly.

I sold a bat that I no longer wanted about a year ago. I recently saw the bat pop up for sale on one of the more popular GU bat sites for double what I sold it for. My first thought--good luck to the new owner, I hope they can make a little money on it (just like I made a little money on the sale).

Additionally, it often goes the other way for collectors. I have bought my fair share of items that I couldn't even get what I originally paid for the item. The market will eventually determine what all our items are worth. MeiGray may have sold below market value, but that isn't the initial buyers problem. I'm sure MeiGray has also sold plenty of items that have lost value almost as soon as it was shipped to the new owner.

[rdeversole]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

I don't think there's ever an instance in which it's not ethical to flip something, unless you've made some sort of special deal with a player or seller. I don't understand how this topic keeps popping up. If I sell a jersey to a buddy and he ends up deciding to sell it for more money, then more power to him. That's 100% his right as owner of the jersey. But, if say David Ortiz gave me something that was specifically for me to have and then I turn around and flip it, I think that's pretty much the unethical side of flipping in my opinion.

[ziggy]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

Get the $ while you can

[zegret]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

I agree, once you own it you are free to do with it whatever you wish. Free enterprise in action!

[nealdevelopment@yahoo.com]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

G79. Are you thinking that its an inside job and that the people that initially end up with the jersey are predetermined before the equipment actually hits the market? In other words it never hits the market for the public. I am in Real Estate in Calif. and this type of thing is an everyday occurance. The banks are getting screwed my friend. Call on any house that is a good deal and its sold. Then its on the market the next week for 50k more and it sells again. Thats business in a nut shell. You asked for an opinion.

[cliffjmp33]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

I agree that flipping is an ok idea. I think the "ethical" part is sending a "want" list to Mei with the intention of reselling as opposed to keeping the item for your collection and I think it stinks for the common collector. Is there anything Mei can do to prevent the resellers from doing this again? Ban them from submitting "want" lists? Not sure I have the answers, but I see where your point is and it stinks for the true fan.

[nationals2k9]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

My only "problem" that somewhat relates to this topic is the idea of obtaining an item by simply having more financial resources than everyone else vs. creating an "in" to gettting things from the source before the general public because of relative financial strength. In other words, there's an item up for auction that I really want, but it pushes my financial limits after a point and I ultimately lose out to someone with more money to spend than me. That I understand and would likely not be sour about.

But when it's quite evident that dangling a few bucks in front of a given source allows for certain people to get an edge up and create unique relationships (and thus, create an environment where things will inevitably be flipped without genuine interest in said items).... that to me, is not something I totally stand behind. The very nature of that type of scenario defeats the definition of open market, doesn't it? The open market value of something should be defined as what the highest bidder is willing to pay given all interested parties are provided knowledge the item exists. But weasling your way into being the first guy to tell so and so you'd give them 'x' amount everytime they help you out, creates a monopoly of sorts where everything is marked up before it's presented to anyone else. I guess the argument here could be if no one will pay the marked up prices, the price will drop until someone does and the item still goes to the highest bidder. I just think there's a difference between the two and I've never been a fan of the later.

[Neely8]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

I think the point that is being lost which is causing so much animosity with that situation is the fact that the jerseys in question were very limited and there were many collectors who wanted one but the supply did not meet the demand. That being said for one to be flipped in such a short time after receiving it, for significantly more than what was paid for it, did not sit well at all for some collectors who weren't able to get one as well as other collectors who just disagreed with it based on ethics alone. I don't think you can compare this situation with real estate or selling a can of coke because those resources are unlimited whereas those Devils jerseys seem to be pretty rare.

[nealdevelopment@yahoo.com]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

Neely. I'm not comparing it to real estate. I just used that as an example. I'm saying there could be some inside action that you or anybody else may not have been exposed to. It happens all the time in life but a lot of people are just not aware of it. Theres all kinds of crazy things going on in this hobby now that it has more of a business format. My point is pretty clear. Dont shoot me down just because you may not agree. Its just an opinion that was asked for by the poster. Thanks

[BarryMeisel]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

Hi everybody
Without trying to read Gingi's mind, I think some of you have missed the point of his query.

There were no inside deals or disputed lists. And as Neely8 pointed out, it is not a typical case of flipping, which we all know is part of the hobby.

This is a unique situation where there were exactly 20 jerseys desired by 50 or 60 hard core collectors, almost all regular and repeat customers.

We could have auctioned these, and let deepest pockets win. That would have undoubtedly meant more money for us, but we felt the fairest thing to do for our loyal Devils collectors was limit one per person, and work the request list in order of request ... We started getting requests a year ago, when the game was announced,long before it was played.

So I think the real issue here, and I will bow out without taking sides, is if it was fair for a collector who did not want one but knew others would, to have taken it and Put it up on e bay rather than pass (as some did) so a fellow collector could get the shirt at the regular price.

The collector did not do anything deceitful, illegal, or or outside our rules. This is more like the ticket broker who gets in front of you on line for a concert buys the ticket, and then resells at a premium when you, who wanted to see the concert gets shut out.

[Neely8]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

My point is pretty clear. Dont shoot me down just because you may not agree. Its just an opinion that was asked for by the poster. Thanks

As my point is pretty clear too. I'm not shooting you down. Just offering my opinion as well.