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momen55
08-20-2006, 04:05 PM
Hello All,
Questions About A Marvelous Find; 35 Inch, U1 With Momen For Signature, 60-64 Label, Uncracked Beauty Which I Was Told Was Ordered In 1959 And That He Only Ordered 6! Any Info And Validity To This As Well As Value Will Be Appreciated.

MSpecht
08-20-2006, 07:17 PM
Hi-- Here is some info re Clemente's use of 35 inch model U1 Louisville sluggers during the 1961-1964 H & B label period.

During the 1950-1960 label period, Clemente was shipped 3 orders of 35 inch model U1 bats, a total of 24 bats, on 5/19/58, 3/18/60, and 4/6/60. Those labels would not correspond to the 1961-1964 label period. Check to see if the lettering beneath the center oval extends from beneath the letter O in LOUISVILLE to the letter K in Kentucky. if so, the bat is likely from one of those three orders, which totaled 24 bats.

If the lettering is smaller, and extends from the letter U in LOUISVILLE and does not reach the letter K in Kentucky, the label is likely 1961-1964. Orders of 35 inch model U1 bats during that period were limited to the following dates of shipping: 5/29/61, 9/6/61, 10/4/61, 7/1/63, 10/29/63, 12/4/63, and 12/11/63. Those orders totaled approximately 44 bats. Note that orders of model U1 bats were shipped in other lengths, most frequently 36 inches, throughout the period, along with other models.

Noted values for Momen Clemente signature bats from that period are documented at $15,400 for a 1955-60 Clemente (Hunt's) and $11, 364 for a 1061-63 Clemente (Mastronet.)Regarding the Momen Clemente signature, here is some information I posted on the old Game Used Forum in September, 2005. The full post is archived on this site:


"Here is some information on Roberto Clemente game-used H & B bats with the Momen Clemente signature on the barrel. The best information is found on the players records (bat cards) from
H & B. On each player's bat card(s), his name, his team during the period covered by that specific card, and the signature to be used is noted at the top of each card. Any changes of the player's team are reflected at the top of the card, and any changes to the signature are generally reflected in the body of the card on the date the change is made. The change in signature is sometimes also found at the top of the card.

Clemente's records cover five separate bat cards. The first card, containing his first bat order in 1954 (M117) through 4/5/62 shows the following information at the top of the card: Clemente, Momen Roberto , Montreal BBC (Baseball Club), Pittsburgh BBC, Auto: Momen. The term New Auto appears between the first and second bat orders in early 1954, and likely correspond to the date he signed a contract with H & B.

Clemente's second bat card, encompassing the period from May 1962 through 12/10/64, still shows the notation Auto Momen at the top, which would indicate that the Momen signature was still being used when the second card was started in May 1962. Unfortunately, there is no notation within the orders on the second card that indicate when a change from the Momen signature to the Roberto signature was made. The change was made at some time during that time frame, however, as Clemente's third bat card (12/10/64 through 8/9/67) has the following notation at the top: Auto Roberto.

My personal experience leads me to believe that the change had certainly been made prior to the end of the 1964 season as I owned a Clemente gamer that was specifically dated to September, 1964 which bore the Roberto signature. I also owned a Clemente O16 gamer from the 1961-1964 labeling period that had the Roberto signature. That bat could have been manufactured as early as 5/16/61 or as late as 4/8/64.

I believe that the most specific thing that can be said with the above information is that the Momen Clemente signature was used from 1954 to sometime during the 1961-1964 H & B labeling period,. The signature change to Roberto had occurred by 4/8/64 and possibly occurred as early as 5/16/61. This time frame could be narrowed down through photo research of Clemente's 1961 (K55), 1962 (U1), and 1963 (U1) All -Star bats.

How many potential bats are out there with the Momen Clemente signature ? Impossible to say, but Clemente ordered over 450 bats from 1954 through March 1962, all of which appear to have had the early signature.

Also, a final interesting note. At the top of Clemente's last (fifth) bat card, it states "Use Clemente Auto on Jose Ortiz." Ortiz played for the White Sox and Cubs in 1969, 1970, 1971 and was born in Ponce, Puerto Rico in 1947 ... probably a big Clemente fan."


Good Luck.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

momen55
08-20-2006, 08:06 PM
the R is below the O and extends to the K. which would make it part of the 5/19/58 order! in fact, prior to my posting here for info, while talking to other folks about this i was told that he ordered only 18 U1's during the 54-59 period; 6 each model U1 (35"/34oz) on 5/19/58 and 12 each model U1 (34.5"/32oz) on 4/30/59! is this true? thanks mike.:eek:

sportscentury
08-20-2006, 08:57 PM
momen55,

In case you didn't see it and are interested:

http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=1303&auctionid=605

Was just flipping through Lelands and found this.

Reid

MSpecht
08-20-2006, 09:05 PM
Here are all orders through the end of the 1950 to 1960 labeling period for model U1 for Clemente:

05/19/58 35"/34 oz 6 bats
04/30/59 34.5"/32 oz 12 bats
03/18/60 35"/32 oz 6 bats
04/06/60 35"/33 oz 12 bats

If labeling is from the 1950-1960 label period as you suggest, it could be from any of the 35" orders above.

There are some small variations in this label period, such as a more squared version of GENUINE on the barrel label (early-to-mid 1950's) as opposed to a more rounded version (mid-to-late 1950's and forward), but that likely would not be a factor in dating your bat given the dates of Clemente's orders. Those variations also apply to the LOUISVILLE SLUGGER lettering below the player's name on the barrel.

I am sure members would like to see pics of the bat, center label, and barrel label if you can post them.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

momen55
08-21-2006, 10:53 AM
thanks for all the info everyone. mike, how much density will a bat loose? it is no longer weighing exactly 34oz.! like i said in the last post, i was told it was in the 58 order. you tell me. and also how do i post pics?

MSpecht
08-21-2006, 01:29 PM
Hi--

Regarding the plus/minus weight difference over a period of years of a bat, there are several opinions. MEARS grading scale allows for a deviation of plus/minus 4 ounces, which is a pretty wide net. Plus/minus an ounce or two under most storage conditions is the standard I generally find acceptable. I personally believe that weight is one of the least reliable characteristics upon which to base an authentication, but it can be helpful when taken into consideration with other factors.

This topic has been a source of several very insightful posts, and Jim Caravello has some well-reasoned opinions on the subject. Here is a link to one of the discussions:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=1258

If there is a better one out there, I will ask Jim to assist in posting it.

Here is an easy "how-to" on posting pics on Game Used Universe. Thanks for this go to Chris' wife, Ting, who has helped me through numerous computer problems:

To post an image from your hard drive:

1. Click the little paper clip icon from the Post New Thread page. This will open up the Manage Attachments window. Click BROWSE and double-click the image file on your hard drive to select it. Click UPLOAD. You can upload multiple image files before you close the Manage Attachment window and return to your Post New Thread page.

2. Click the paper clip icon again and select each of the image files that you wish to insert into your post. To preview the images before submitting the post, click PREVIEW POST.

To post an image from another website:

1. Click the INSERT IMAGE icon from the Post New Thread page. A little box will open prompting you to enter the URL of your image.

2. Right-click the image on the other website and then select PROPERTIES. Highlight the address (URL), copy (Ctrl C), and paste (Ctrl V) it into the little box in # 1 above. If the other website allows linking to its image, you will see the image display right away.

Good Luck...those pics will be interesting.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

momen55
08-21-2006, 01:51 PM
mike,
i weighed the bat and it is 32.6oz. so i assume that over the course of almost 50 years it lost 1.4oz of density, correct? anyway i will try to post pics. it sounds prety simple. well, files are too big for here. what can i do know? :mad:

momen55
08-21-2006, 02:03 PM
let's try again.1393

momen55
08-21-2006, 02:19 PM
try again.1394

1395

momen55
08-21-2006, 02:32 PM
sorry for the small pics. i am new at this so please bare with me i will get it right!1396

1397

ok fellas. look and let me know what you all think about this bat. ;)

krzang
08-22-2006, 02:19 PM
Beautiful bat! I posted in the Want Adds for a Momen so let me know if you ever decide to cut it loose.

momen55
08-23-2006, 09:58 AM
i received some more info regarding the dating of the bat. in an email, i was told that "between the years 50-60, the & sign in H&B was between the 1 and 2 underneath the 125. in 1961, the & sign was shifted directly below the 2 in 125".

now the A clause of that statement solidifies the validity of the bat as being from the 58 order, which is even better for me because now i have more concrete evidence to it's origin. very nice. :)

The Lumber Company
08-24-2006, 04:47 PM
Dear sir,
My name is Marty Wallach and I am a Pittsburgh Pirates game used bat collector. I would be very interested in purchasing this bat if you are considering parting with it.

I would love to speak further about this if interested. I would gladly travel to see the bat if at all possible in selling. I am in Tampa, FL. I have access to tons of other high end collectibles if interested in any trades as well.

Regards,
Marty (Martymwallach@tampabay.rr.com)
mwallach@tampabay.rr.com
813-416-0434