Red Sox Jersey Wear

[ahuff]

My question is this?

How much wear should a Red Sox Alternate jersey show? I don't know why, but I've seen several of these alternates come out during the past few months. I believe I've seen 2-3 Nomars, a Damon, and a Schill. I'm sure that it just depends, but how many jerseys were each player known to wear.

The photos posted are from a current auction, and are very similar to the photos I've seen in the past of the Nomar jerseys. This is the first Schil Alternate jersey I've seen. The Nomars all show minimal if any wear, while the Curt Schilling jersey shows the type of wear one would expect. Honestly, I can't recall ever seeing a Nomar jersey with much more wear than these show, irregardless of the team he played for. His Cubs ones look just as fresh and crisp as these do. But his Dodgers one that recently sold did show some o.k. wear. So is the lack of wear on these Alternates a call for concern, did he simply not wear them more than a few times, or do the wash tags hold up much better than one would expect for the first few times?

I want it to be known that I am NOT saying the photos posted on here are of bogus jerseys. I am NOT questioning their authenticity, but simply wanting to be a more informed collector.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

[indyred]

Re: Red Sox Jersey Wear

Seems the Red Sox barley ever use them red alternate jerseys anymore. Wern't they supposed to be a Sunday home jersey and for Holiday games? Then it became the pitchers choice and most don't pick it for Sunday games anymore....Not sure, but I'd guess they have at least 2 sets for it. So most would have little if any wear on them. I see that Schilling pictures is back when Russell made there jersey, probally 2004 then. I think they used them more that year and it's become less and less each season since. Maybe a Red Sox expert will chime in......

[hblakewolf]

Re: Red Sox Jersey Wear

Forum readers-
A Red Sox expert needs to chime in, however, the difference in Russell tagging is alarming to me.

The 2003 Nomar looks great-the year tag in attached/sewn under the Russell tag with no spacing.

The 2004 Schilling has the pre-2004 Russell tag and the seperated year tag.

Does anyone have a photo example of the tagging on a common 2004 Red Sox red jersey they can post? I'd be willing to bet that the year tag is sewn directly to the Russell tag and not with a space in-between. Likewise, the Russell tag will reflect the 2004 style.

Just a guess........

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[kingjammy24]

Re: Red Sox Jersey Wear

regardless of the era, team, and/or specific player, any jersey that's been used for a good amount of games should show a "good amount" of use. if the jersey doesn't show a good deal of use, then it's because either the jersey hasn't been used a good deal or it hasn't been used at all. i'm not sure it gets much more complicated than that.

to answer your questions:
"How much wear should a Red Sox Alternate jersey show?"

i'm unsure how many games the red sox used alternates for. however, speaking about alternates in general, even though they're used far less than home and road jerseys, an alternate jersey that was used for the majority of appropriate games should still show a "decent amount" of use.

(in this case, consider what a physical player garciaparra was during his tenure in boston and that he played a full season in 2003).

"So is the lack of wear on these Alternates a call for concern, did he simply not wear them more than a few times, or do the wash tags hold up much better than one would expect for the first few times?"

a lack of use could mean a number of things - it was never issued and is doctored up, it was issued but never worn, it was worn but only for a couple of games. (personally i don't think the last option is very likely. even in this current age of players wearing several jerseys per season, i don't think any of them wear a jersey for only 2-3 games).

personally, in most cases i don't really think it matters why a jersey shows little use; the important point is that it shows little use and for me, that's enough to move on. in a best case scenario it's due to the jersey hardly being used, at worst it's due to the jersey not being used at all. i'm not interested in obtaining a jersey from either scenario.

here's the tagging from a mcgwire jersey that is being sold as "game worn":


even though the tagging is the crispest i've ever seen (i've seen retail jerseys hanging on the store rack that showed more wear) , i still don't think it'd be accurate to say the jersey definitely couldn't be game used. i have no way of knowing if mcgwire ever put it on for 1 game. all i can say with any degree of fairness is that the jersey doesn't seem to have been used for very many games at all.

let's say, for example, that we'll be extremely liberal and estimate that a star player today legitimately uses 15 jerseys a season at most. that's 1 jersey every 10 games or so. does the mcgwire jersey look like it's been washed 10+ times? is it likely that mcgwire would wear a jersey only 2 or 3 times?

in most cases, if a jersey shows little wear it's difficult to ascertain why specifically. personally i think the fact that it shows little wear is all the info i need to leave it alone.

howard: as you know, russell changed their tag in 2004. here is a pic of a russell tag from 2004:



rudy.

[hblakewolf]

Re: Red Sox Jersey Wear

Rudy-
Please see my post. Your photo clearly demonstrates what I'm asking to see-an alternate 2004 Red Sox with the one year style 2004 Russell tag (the tag with the washing info, etc.) and with the year tag sewn directly into this Russell tag, not the type with the space inbetween the Russell and white year tag.

I find it interesting that EVERY major auction has these alternate Red Sox jerseys of the stars, however, whree are the commons? From the looks of it, Schilling and Ortiz must have changed their Red jerseys every inning in order to supply the auction houses with this many jerseys.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[suave1477]

Re: Red Sox Jersey Wear

KingJammy I agree with some things your saying but I would debate others.
I do want to point out that you said those are the tags for 2004 which is not the case for all 2004 jerseys.
They might have introduced them on to some jerseys in 2004 but not all I have a Yankees Jersey tag here from 2004 still the old tag.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Red Sox Jersey Wear

howard: you bring up an interesting point; the seemingly overabundant supply of certain player's jerseys in certain years. while at times it can be difficult to spot flaws on a jersey, the sheer oversupply of certain jerseys raises concern in itself.
ever since the redsox won the world series in 04, it's been difficult to ignore the sudden and substantial influx of '04 and '05 schilling and ortiz jerseys on the market. they're everywhere; ebay, every major auction, etc. at least the ramirez's had manny's "custom tagging" which gave them away. why does the oversupply seem to only come from '04 and '05? where are the '02's? pedro martinez was a superstar and yet the number of his '02 jerseys out there seems to pale in comparison to '04 schillings'.
where are the merlonis', nixons', and hillenbrands'? i'm unsure what accurate conclusions can really be reached by this sudden and atypically large inventory.

suave: carryovers would be expected. i simply intended to note that russell had changed it's tagging in 2004.

rudy.

[trsent]

Re: Red Sox Jersey Wear

2004 was the last year for Russell jerseys in MLB. This was also the year they introduced a new style Russell tag. It is very common for the previous style Russell tag to be present with a 2004 year tag. Also, there is no rhyme or reason for the position of the year tag. Most jerseys do have the year tag sewn below to the right of the Russell tag, but it is also fairly common for the year tag to be sewn completely below the Russell tag in the middle. This is from my experience of viewing many Russell jerseys of both commons and stars.

[sportscentury]

Re: Red Sox Jersey Wear

[quote=trsent;18279]Also, there is no rhyme or reason for the position of the year tag.quote]

I have found this to be the case, as well. I remember, for example, when Ron Fukushima (California Sports Investments) purchased the entire Mariners team lot from 2000, the tagging arrangement (in terms of placement of each tag, etc.) across jerseys varied quite a bit. The same has been true for Braves team lots that Barry Sanders (Atlanta Sports Collectibles) has obtained. These lots included the star and common players and every single shirt showed excellent game wear and was real. I would not rule out or discount a jersey simply because it has a tagging placement difference. Provenance, other characteristics and qualities of the jersey's make and structure, and player use characteristics and qualities are all of great importance.

Reid

[bigtime59]

Re: Red Sox Jersey Wear

Tagging issues or no, it does strike me as odd that there are quite a few "superstar" red alternates, but that the commons are harder to find than a way out of Iraq (oops, sorry...didn't mean to go there! ) I should know, because I've been looking...

Mark Sutton
bigtime39@aol.com

[indyred]

Re: Red Sox Jersey Wear

Does anyone know the number of games they used these red alternates per season. I know this season, I recall them using them only a couple of times.....

[suave1477]

Re: Red Sox Jersey Wear

I would say its quite obvious why there would be more 2004 and 2005 schillings out on the Market. Lets start with 2004 the Red Sox won he World series in what 80 something years. So I am sure there is going to be a quite bit more docotored up jerseys entering the Market espeically of schilling in 2004 and 2005 since he played with the AKA RESD SOCK / BLOODY SOCK. So now there is becoming even more of a Market for Red Sox items so your going to find fakes leaking there way on to the Market.

Sure a 2002 Pedro Martinez has interest but what would you rather have a 2002 Martinez or a 2004 World Series season tale of the Bloody Sock Schilling Jersey. I think we all know the answer to that. Lets not also forget Martinez went to the Mets so there went some of his fan base and not to mention he has been having constant injury problems this year.

[ahuff]

Re: Red Sox Jersey Wear

Thank you all for the great input. I've loved seeing the photos and the great commentary. I too think it is odd that you see tons of Superstar red alternates (or any style jersey for that matter), but I have yet to see say a Tavarez jersey.

It seems that many of the photos show tags that are perhaps as virgin as it gets. I'm wondering how people rate wear. Can we see some photos and discuss what amount of wear a person deems a jersey has. I'm just looking for a personal perspective, not what you would say MEARS or Lampson would rate it. For instance, here is a Nomar alternate that I recently picked up. What would you guys rate the wear on a jersey that shows like this? Use whatever grading scale you wish.

For me, I will use a 1-10 scale.

1-No possible way - it doesn't even match a team issued
5-Tagged correctly, but no signs of wear
10-As good as it gets - Piling, wear, tagged correctly, scratched buttons, etc.

I would rate it as a 6. I can't prove nor disprove it. In my experience, though, the tags are pretty straight. The manufacturers tag is so straight, it appears to have no washes, and the extra length tag doesn't show any "pinkness" from a wash. However, the "2003" tag does show some fading and slight pinkness. However, I do own a Ruben Sierra "Negro League" jersey that shows even less wear. So in my mind, when it comes to alternates, they are just a different breed of jersey.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Red Sox Jersey Wear

i look for indicators that tell me that the wear is a) legit, b) consistant with the player, position, games played and c) indicative that the jersey was used for a substantial amount of games. by "substantial" i mean a jersey that's been used for approx. 80 games. i figure that's about the first half of the season. so i'll look at the jersey and certain indicators to gauge whether it appears to me that the jersey was legitimately used for approx. 80 games. it's simply a preference of mine and a little number i look for. i'm not interested in jerseys that saw 10 or 15 games.
so rather than simply trying to see how much use a jersey shows, i'll work backwards by first deciding the amount of use i want it to show, what sort of use it should show, and then seeing if it matches my expectation.

i guess after looking at a bunch of jerseys, you start to get a feel for what an 80 gamer looks like vs a 15 gamer, etc. you get an idea of how puckered a tag should get, of how faded a paper tag should become, how soft the fabric should feel, how loose the buttons should be, etc. that is, you get an idea of the effect of prolonged use on fabric. sort of like an orange farmer determining whether an orange growing on a tree is ripe. he doesn't need a codified scale. he just looks at the orange and with a look, a few touches, and a smell knows if it's ready. i just look at the fabric, letters, numbers, tagging, etc and see if they all look like they've been through approx 80 games. is the fabric too rough? no pucker at all in the tagging? crisp paper flagtags? i leave that orange alone. (am i starting to sound crazy yet?)

it seems easier to look at a jersey and determine how many games it appears to have played in than to gauge it via some sort of sliding scale. let's say i gauge a jersey at a "6". inherantly, what does the 6 really tell me? looking at a jersey and determining that there's no way it could've gone through more than 10 washes, for example, or that it looks like it was used for at least half the season tells me a lot.
(i never understood what lampson or mears meant by "light use". is there a difference, in their books, between light use and no use? have they ever put "no use" on any of their loas? how many games would create "light use"? 3? 10? 20? i'd rather see a comment like "use indicates the jersey was used for approx 1/3 of the season". that tells me something. i have no idea what "light use" is supposed to convey to me or what it constitutes. what constitutes "light use"? one fold in the paper flag tag? a single pine tar stain? 3 pucker lines in one number? i have no clue. conversely, telling me the use on the jersey is indicative of half a season of use tells me everything i need to know. everyone here knows what half a season is. if you asked 20 people here what exactly "medium use" means, you'd get 20 different answers).

so what do i want to see in one of my "80 gamers"? how do i know when one of my little oranges is ripe for plucking? i want soft fabric, a really good pucker or decent fade in the manufacturer tag (pucker for cloth tags, fade for paper tags), i want some fading and puckering in the front logo, numbers, and name and i want all of the fading and puckering to be consistent. i want scratched buttons for most positions. a few broken threads would be nice. i want loose buttons and button holes. i expect some serious pilling around the back and edges for a catcher's jersey. for a physical player like rickey henderson or nomar or roberto alomar, i want to see some abrasion and broken threads on the front logo. for a jersey from a player known for tucking a pinetarred bat under his arm, i want some pine tar stains under the arm. etc etc. whether all of that constitutes a "7", "8", "9" or whatever, all i know is that it's good to go. again, it's not so much that i rate use according to some scale or category. i just look for it to be legit, consistent, and indicative of going through 80 games by that particular player. pretty simple huh?

although i understand that modern players go through more jerseys than those in the 70s or 80s, i don't believe they're going through 1 jersey every 10 games. if all i can find of a certain player are crisp jerseys, then rather than conclude he must be using a new jersey every 10 games, i think it's more likely that he kept his own game jerseys and the crisp ones you see are game-issued and/or doctored. i believe that the jerseys worn by players today should still be expected to show a good amount of wear.

rudy.

[indyred]

Re: Red Sox Jersey Wear

I could easily see a Red Sox alternate jersey having almost zero wear. Especially from past 2 seasons. They never use them. Maybe 5 games this season tops. If they have a couple sets of these, your looking 2-3 games wear. A pitcher's jersey, who may not even have played in game or bench player's that only see an inning or two........will probally have nothing. Has Schilling even pitched in a game with this jersey? I remember him being one who always picked the white jersey when it was his start at home on Sunday's.