Team's definition of Game Used

[Klattsy]

We all know that when an MLB holo says game used, its pretty much water tight that it was used in a game by a player...

However how about when team LOA's say "game used", do they use the same definition - i.e. someone saw the player wear it...or is it pretty liberally used? As in, some stuff would actually only be issued.

I am particularly asking about Spring Training/BP jerseys issued by Pirates, Phillies and Braves.

Thanks!
Mark.

[Mulligans]

I'm not really sure that there is a "Rule of Thumb" however I can attest that over the years I have received many items from the Team.....MLB Auctions and NFL Auctions that have paperwork saying that it is "Game Used" and in the Data bases as "game used". After a bit of Homework, I have found that the player didn't even play in the documented game or the item could not have been used.

I have heard this story from many other guys on this forum before and I'm not really sure the MLB Hologram is even air tight (although it is pretty good). I own a "Game used" autographed Home plate that never saw the light of day.

Now when it comes to Team issued Certs...."All bets are off" and many of these teams should be embarrassed at what they represent as GU. I just sent back a handful of Titans Jerseys that were certainly never worn.

I have yet to run into this with the NHL and NBA but Maybe it exists there too?

[mad87man]

I honestly don't know how they figure what is and what isn't. I think they wash a lot of the stuff and it is only one wear things. Also i know some teams label stuff game issued when it was actually worn b/c they mix them both to sell.

[mlupo]

After a bit of Homework, I have found that the player didn't even play in the documented game or the item could not have been used.

I agree, you see a lot of MLB jerseys from the Turn Back The Clock and Negro league games that are listed by MLB authentication as "game used" when the player never played in the one and only game they were worn. This is the gray area where it was worn by the player DURING the game, but not IN the game. Personally, I feel like they should add another catagory called "bench worn", "dugout worn", or "bullpen worn" for items like this that are more than just game issued because the player wore it, but didn't see any action.

[legaleagle92481]

If it comes from the lockerroom alot consider it game worn and they would not be able to tell if it were or not unless they saw the guy take it off his back. The Jets before they got involved with JO used to sell jerseys as gameworn that clearly were not. As another member stated in another thread the Red Wings sell Yzerman jerseys as game worn for $5,000 that show light to no use. As Jeff pointed out NFL Auctions routinely sells jerseys from games a player was not even active for. Last season they sold a Jamal Lewis jersey as such that was worn after he was knocked out for the year as Greg aptly pointed out at the time. personally I wont buy a jersey from a team unless they tell me what game(s) it was worn in.

[Klattsy]

I agree, you see a lot of MLB jerseys from the Turn Back The Clock and Negro league games that are listed by MLB authentication as "game used" when the player never played in the one and only game they were worn.

This was the mistake I made with my very first purchase. Beautiful set of Grant Balfour cleats from the TBTC game, but he didn't even pitch in the game. I can only assume he wore them while sitting in the bullpen. They look great and have an authenticated auto, but still...

The main reason I asked the question is there are about 4 ST/BP jersey's from my guys on eBay...all come with Team LOA's stating "game used". Asking around it seems that teams may issue 2 ST/BP jersey's per player. Having only two jersey's - you would assume that they would both have to be worn at some stage...right??? As long as the player was actually on the roster that spring, I should be good? Or am I just trying to hard to spend some money :) It's been a while between purchases and i'm getting desperate!

Would hate to end up with something that is just issued. Plus a lot of these BP jersey's don't show much use (especially pitchers). And when they call the BP jersey's, how often would a pitcher take BP!

Mark.

[coxfan]

It's not just jerseys. I've seen dealers sell "game-used" locker-room chairs, and "game-used" bullpen pitching rubbers, though they weren't officially part of the game. Our hobby itself doesn't have firm definitions. For example, is a dugout lineup card "game-used" even though it has no official significance? ( as opposed to a batting-order card given to the umpire, which is clearly game-used as it's required by the rules.) Is a jersey worn by a coach "game-used" although he's not a player?

And an interesting point I've never seen come up: If balls are given MLB holos for a game that's not official because weather-shortened, is that "game-used" though it's not an official game? Again, our hobby itself doesn't necessarily have strict definitions.

[mlupo]

The main reason I asked the question is there are about 4 ST/BP jersey's from my guys on eBay...all come with Team LOA's stating "game used". Asking around it seems that teams may issue 2 ST/BP jersey's per player. Having only two jersey's - you would assume that they would both have to be worn at some stage...right??? As long as the player was actually on the roster that spring, I should be good? Or am I just trying to hard to spend some money :) It's been a while between purchases and i'm getting desperate!

Personally, I mostly collect Detroit Tigers and they don't wear BP jerseys for spring games, they use their regular jerseys but they are tagged as spring. I never got into BP jerseys myself, but I am guessing if the team uses the same style for ST and BP then you are probably good, they probably saw use at some point. That being said you are probably trying buy something since its been a while :) I know, it happens to me.

[mlupo]

It's not just jerseys. I've seen dealers sell "game-used" locker-room chairs, and "game-used" bullpen pitching rubbers, though they weren't officially part of the game. Our hobby itself doesn't have firm definitions. For example, is a dugout lineup card "game-used" even though it has no official significance? ( as opposed to a batting-order card given to the umpire, which is clearly game-used as it's required by the rules.) Is a jersey worn by a coach "game-used" although he's not a player?

And an interesting point I've never seen come up: If balls are given MLB holos for a game that's not official because weather-shortened, is that "game-used" though it's not an official game? Again, our hobby itself doesn't necessarily have strict definitions.

A lot of great points!!! I'm fine with items that never have a chance of making it on the field being called "game used"(clubhouse chairs, bullpen home plates, bullpen telephone), because there really isnt any great title for them. In the case of a clubhouse chair, once a player sits in it I would no longer call it "issued" because now it is "used".

My issue is with the items that are worn by the player but never see game action. IMO I would call a managers jersey "game worn" because just being worn for the game means it sees as much action as it ever will, but that's just me.

I have never heard anyone bring up games that are not official, that is a GREAT point. I would have to say those are not "game used".

[solarlottry]

I consider jerseys game used if the player dressed for the game and was on the sidelines ready to play. Even if he didnt play a single play but because he was dressed and ready to play i consider the shirt game used. As most of you know i collect 49ers gamers and i consider the shirt that the backup QB wore game used even though he may not have played. Lets say the punter who is obviously dressed and ready to punt does not punt in a game-is the shirt not game used. I think it is. I also think that if a pitcher is in the bullpen and ready to pitch but does not that that shirt is also game used.

I have an Elvis Grbac 95 gamer with team letter that shows little use but he was the backup QB so he probably was on the sidelines ready to play but didnt. I think the shirt is game used. MEARS gave it an A5 even with the genuine team letter that states game used. Lets say he was in the game for one play, would the grade have been higher?

What is interesting is that NBA Auctions makes note that a player dressed but didnt play in their descriptions of the jerseys they auction.

Always buying 49ers gamers
Paul
garciajones@yahoo.com

[sox83cubs84]

Overall, solar, my take on this is the same as yours. For one game styles(TBTC, military camo, etc.), a small premium might be in order for someone who actually took the field/court in said game over someone who dressed, was eligible for action, but saw no action.

Dave Miedema

[G1X]

As can be seen in this thread, there are varying and valid opinions about what is and what isn't game used when it comes to a player dressing for a game but not participating. I think that it boils down to each individual collector and what they feel comfortable with.

In my humble opinion, if a player dresses out and wears the jersey, even if he did not participate in the game, the jersey is game worn. For example, I have a Denver Broncos AFL Legacy jersey of Chris Simms where he was the "third" QB for that particular game. He was officially "inactive" and never played a down, but he was dressed in full gear for the game and stood on the sidelines throughout. The jersey has not been washed, and it stinks! So, is it or isn't it? The jersey is on my price list, and when anyone inquires about it, I fully disclose Simms' status for that game and let the Buyer decide if it is game worn. I feel that it is game worn, but the Buyer, not me, has to feel comfortable with it.

All of this is part of something that I see as a much bigger problem (and maybe a topic best addressed in a separate thread). There is simply way too much stuff being made readily available. We see with some football teams that players are wearing a new jersey in every game. We see baseball players going through numerous uniforms each season (not to mention the various alternate styles and the option of cool base jerseys). All of this makes it difficult at times for a jersey to be worn enough to show decent game use.

Never mind what the paperwork might state. I have a nice collection of what I call "Error COAs" (COAs containing errors/factual mistakes) that I've accumulated over the years from teams, leagues, authenticators, auction houses, dealers, collectors, ebay sellers, friends, and some of you! (Hope I didn't leave anyone out.:))

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons, World Football League, AFL/NFL durene jerseys, and Willie McGee and Darren Lewis game used items.

[solarlottry]

I did not realize that inactive players dressed. What would be the point? I guess that, to me, if a player is dressed and ready to play and is available and can play then the shirt is game worn.

I think that it is good that there are more and more legitimate game used shirts out there. One things it does is lower prices and allow for more collectors to buy players they like. Take more instance Patrick Willis, the NFL has auctioned at least 5 of his shirts over the last 2 years. The first sold for over 3300$ and the last sold for around 2500$. One drawback is that unlike say a Joe Montana which will always retain its 10-20K value, todays shirts could lose value over time. As players wear one shirt per game it eventually puts a fair number of shirts on the market. The mere fact that the shirts are readily available may make it pointless to counterfeit and sell fake modern day players.

It is also interesting to see how resale values hold up. A person who bought a Brett Favre Vikes shirt for 7500$ may not get anywhere near that owing to the fact that he wore 2 shirts per game. A major auction house told me that they turn away modern superstars all the time (Adrian Peterson etc) because the owner expects to get what they paid and if they paid say 8500$ the auction house knows that it will never reach that figure. We see this with the Bears shirts that JO sells. After a hot Bears alternate is sold it never reaches what it originally sold for on the secondary market.

This is a hobby that keeps you on your toes-that for sure!

Paul
Always buying 49ers gamers
garciajones@yahoo.com

[Klattsy]

Personally, I mostly collect Detroit Tigers and they don't wear BP jerseys for spring games, they use their regular jerseys but they are tagged as spring. I never got into BP jerseys myself, but I am guessing if the team uses the same style for ST and BP then you are probably good, they probably saw use at some point. That being said you are probably trying buy something since its been a while :) I know, it happens to me.

Hi mlupo, I noticed the Tigers wearing regular jerseys in the Braves game I watched last night.

The jersey's I am looking at have team LOA's calling the BP jersey's. But they are also the ST jerseys.

So when you say "if the team uses the same style for ST and BP then you are probably good" is a good point until I thought about it and realized that the guys I collect, never made it past ST! Which means they wouldn't have taken BP with the Parent Club during the season. Especially in the case of pitchers (how much BP do they take anyways?). That means I'm relying on the jersey's being worn during ST only.

Ahhh you could question every item out there if you wanted to. I think i'll stick to regular season jersey's.

Thanks all, glad this topic grew some legs!

Mark.

[G1X]

I did not realize that inactive players dressed. What would be the point? I guess that, to me, if a player is dressed and ready to play and is available and can play then the shirt is game worn.

I think that it is good that there are more and more legitimate game used shirts out there. One things it does is lower prices and allow for more collectors to buy players they like. Take more instance Patrick Willis, the NFL has auctioned at least 5 of his shirts over the last 2 years. The first sold for over 3300$ and the last sold for around 2500$. One drawback is that unlike say a Joe Montana which will always retain its 10-20K value, todays shirts could lose value over time. As players wear one shirt per game it eventually puts a fair number of shirts on the market. The mere fact that the shirts are readily available may make it pointless to counterfeit and sell fake modern day players.

It is also interesting to see how resale values hold up. A person who bought a Brett Favre Vikes shirt for 7500$ may not get anywhere near that owing to the fact that he wore 2 shirts per game. A major auction house told me that they turn away modern superstars all the time (Adrian Peterson etc) because the owner expects to get what they paid and if they paid say 8500$ the auction house knows that it will never reach that figure. We see this with the Bears shirts that JO sells. After a hot Bears alternate is sold it never reaches what it originally sold for on the secondary market.

This is a hobby that keeps you on your toes-that for sure!

Paul
Always buying 49ers gamers
garciajones@yahoo.com

In the NFL, the "third" quarterback is inactive, but he dresses out and can end up playing in the game in the event of an injury. The NFL does this so that a team doesn't end up without a QB. In the early 1980s in the NFC championship game, Drew Pearson ended up playing QB for the Cowboys at the end of the game after both QBs were knocked out of the game. I don't think that the NFL wants to see that happen again.

In major league baseball, any player sitting on the bench suppposed to be in uniform. So if a player is on the DL and not on the active roster but is traveling with the club, he has to wear his uniform if he sits in the dugout.

I personally do not like to see a lot of jerseys of the same player made available for a lot of reasons, but mainly because of the fact that one-game wear is not what I want in a jersey. As for the value, I'm not sure I completely understand why football jerseys have suddenly become hyper-priced during the past few years. More and more are becoming available - some players are wearing 16 or more each year - yet the prices are going out of sight.

Keep in mind that 16 jerseys is a lot of jerseys for one player. That's nearly 50 jerseys in 3 years! I deal with a lot of folks in this hobby, and most I know have a tough time coming up with the change to buy a few commons for about one-tenth of the price of some of the high-priced shirts.

Each to their own in what they collect and how much they spend. Most of us collect because we like the items we collect, but at the same time, I believe that most of us also want to get a fair return when/if we ever decide to trade or sell items from our collections. I don't see that happening based on some of the prices I am seeing in the marketplace for current-era jerseys.

Just something to think about in the long run . . .

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons, World Football League, AFL/NFL durene jerseys, and Willie McGee and Darren Lewis game used items.

[solarlottry]

Good points Mark! One question would be then that if a player is inactive, who is not a QB but is dressed, is the shirt game worn. NFL auctions sold a Andre Johnson shirt as "game worn" even though he was inactive. Does that mean he dressed but didnt play? I thought that NFL players who were inactive due to injury were on the sideline but in street clothes. Baseball may be different.

As for prices you are right on. I have no idea how, with players using so many shirts that prices are so high. It should be the opposite! I think it is multifactorial as to why prices are what they are. Prices at JO (no knock on JO here at all as they sell quality shirts) never start cheap thus raising the bar for other sellers. I have had numerous sellers tell me that they base their prices of old 49er shirts on current prices. So lets say JO prices (who knows what the shirt actually sold for) an average receiver shirt at $1500, the seller of the 49er shirt tells me that if an average player sells for $1500 then a John Taylor must be 3000$! The 49er seller doesnt know that the JO shirt actually sold for say 800$. All they see is the retail 1500$ and thats what they base their price on.

Sellers also use NFL auctions for pricing guidelines. I think sellers also realize that some collectors want what they have and know that they eventually will pay somewhere close to the asking price.

I also agree that one game wear is not what is ultimately desirable on game used items. With shirts being unwashed though one game wear can be fairly extensive though. Just look at the Willis shirt posted by Clay in "feb pickups". It is beat to hell!

Now and then their are bargains out there but overall i think stuff is way to expensive. It always should boil down to "you get what you pay for" and in some cases its true. A genuine Jerry Rice shirt should be expensive for the real deal.

Always buying 9r gamers
paul
garciajones@yahoo.com

[G1X]

Paul,

The only "inactive" player who dresses for the game is the "3rd quarterback". Keep in mind that there is the possiblity that he will actually play in the game as he can become "active" under several scenarios.

A player does not necessairly have to be injured to be declared "inactive" for the game. NFL teams carry 53 players during the regular season, but only 45 can be active for a regular-season game, so eight players are declared inactive each week. They do not dress out for the game other than the 3rd quarterback.

Here is the rule: "Teams will be permitted an Active List of 45 players and an Inactive List of eight players for each regular-season and postseason game. Provided that a club has two quarterbacks on its 45-player Active List, a third quarterback from its Inactive List is permitted to dress for the game, but if he enters the game during the first three quarters, the other two quarterbacks are thereafter prohibited from playing."

As for Andre Johnson, if he was ruled inactive for a particular game, then he did not dress out for that game.

For those of you who are not familiar with the "Game Book" section on the NFL.com site, it is a great tool to find out which players were active and which were inactive for every game in the NFL over the past 10 years.

It takes a bit of navigating on the NFL.com site, and it can be a bit frustrating until you do it a few times and get used to the system. To access a Game Book for a particular game, take the following steps:
1. Click the "Scores" menu bar on the main NFL.com page.
2. Next, pick the season you are searching (look on the far right side of the page).
3. Once you are into the particular season you are seeking, determine the week number that the game was played (such as Week 1, Week 2, etc.) and click on that number at the top of the page.
4. Once you are on the page showing the particular week you need, find the line score of the game you are seeking.
5. On the line score for that particular game, click onto the "Box Score".
6. When the Box Score downloads, you will see an option to download the "Game Book" in a PDF format (located just above the Scoring Summary).

Hope this information is useful.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons, World Football League, AFL/NFL durene jerseys, and Willie McGee and Darren Lewis game used items.

[solarlottry]

Mark that is what i figured that only the 3rd QB who is "inactive" dressed for the game. Guys who are inactive or injured for that matter dont dress. I know that there are quite a few guys who are perfectly ready to play but are inactive for any number of reasons. I am sure it pisses players off who want to play but due to "coaches decisions" are made inactive.

Thanks for the tip in finding who was inactive for various games! it is good info to have.

What is funny is that there is a possible 49er gamer (Patrick Estes) on ebay now who was signed on the day of the game and cut one week later. I have not checked the PSA/DNA # yet to determine if it is a practice or game worn shirt. It is from the Mexico City game and supposedly there were two shirts issued-one game worn and the other practice worn. The player was in training camp, then cut, then resigned on the exact day of the game. It would be good info to have if he was indeed active or not to determine what the shirt is. It would also be interesting to see if NFL has it cataloged as "game worn" even if he was inactive.

The Andre Johnson shirt was clearly game ISSUED but sold as game used. It still sold for over 1K but with a little homework it would have been easy to see that he was inactive and thus not dressed.

Mark you are an immensely valuable asset to the football and overall collecting hobby! Your posts are always interesting and educational. please keep it up!

Always buying 49ers gamers. I will pay you $$$$ for your 1994 shirts!
Paul
garciajones@yahoo.com

[legaleagle92481]

Paul,

The only "inactive" player who dresses for the game is the "3rd quarterback". Keep in mind that there is the possiblity that he will actually play in the game as he can become "active" under several scenarios.

A player does not necessairly have to be injured to be declared "inactive" for the game. NFL teams carry 53 players during the regular season, but only 45 can be active for a regular-season game, so eight players are declared inactive each week. They do not dress out for the game other than the 3rd quarterback.

Here is the rule: "Teams will be permitted an Active List of 45 players and an Inactive List of eight players for each regular-season and postseason game. Provided that a club has two quarterbacks on its 45-player Active List, a third quarterback from its Inactive List is permitted to dress for the game, but if he enters the game during the first three quarters, the other two quarterbacks are thereafter prohibited from playing."

As for Andre Johnson, if he was ruled inactive for a particular game, then he did not dress out for that game.

For those of you who are not familiar with the "Game Book" section on the NFL.com site, it is a great tool to find out which players were active and which were inactive for every game in the NFL over the past 10 years.

It takes a bit of navigating on the NFL.com site, and it can be a bit frustrating until you do it a few times and get used to the system. To access a Game Book for a particular game, take the following steps:
1. Click the "Scores" menu bar on the main NFL.com page.
2. Next, pick the season you are searching (look on the far right side of the page).
3. Once you are into the particular season you are seeking, determine the week number that the game was played (such as Week 1, Week 2, etc.) and click on that number at the top of the page.
4. Once you are on the page showing the particular week you need, find the line score of the game you are seeking.
5. On the line score for that particular game, click onto the "Box Score".
6. When the Box Score downloads, you will see an option to download the "Game Book" in a PDF format (located just above the Scoring Summary).

Hope this information is useful.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons, World Football League, AFL/NFL durene jerseys, and Willie McGee and Darren Lewis game used items.

Another good place to find this type of info. is the game logs profootball reference.com keeps for each player.

[legaleagle92481]

In the NFL, the "third" quarterback is inactive, but he dresses out and can end up playing in the game in the event of an injury. The NFL does this so that a team doesn't end up without a QB. In the early 1980s in the NFC championship game, Drew Pearson ended up playing QB for the Cowboys at the end of the game after both QBs were knocked out of the game. I don't think that the NFL wants to see that happen again.

In major league baseball, any player sitting on the bench suppposed to be in uniform. So if a player is on the DL and not on the active roster but is traveling with the club, he has to wear his uniform if he sits in the dugout.

I personally do not like to see a lot of jerseys of the same player made available for a lot of reasons, but mainly because of the fact that one-game wear is not what I want in a jersey. As for the value, I'm not sure I completely understand why football jerseys have suddenly become hyper-priced during the past few years. More and more are becoming available - some players are wearing 16 or more each year - yet the prices are going out of sight.

Keep in mind that 16 jerseys is a lot of jerseys for one player. That's nearly 50 jerseys in 3 years! I deal with a lot of folks in this hobby, and most I know have a tough time coming up with the change to buy a few commons for about one-tenth of the price of some of the high-priced shirts.

Each to their own in what they collect and how much they spend. Most of us collect because we like the items we collect, but at the same time, I believe that most of us also want to get a fair return when/if we ever decide to trade or sell items from our collections. I don't see that happening based on some of the prices I am seeing in the marketplace for current-era jerseys.

Just something to think about in the long run . . .

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons, World Football League, AFL/NFL durene jerseys, and Willie McGee and Darren Lewis game used items.

Oversaturation is the hallmark of the sports collectibles hobby. First it was cards. Then autographs and now its game used. Except for pre1970 cards and autographs of those who died before 1980 those two markets are full of stuff and the items are nothing more than pricepoint items. He who sells lowest gets the sale. Personally I lost a small fortune in both. Ive liquidated both collections for about 10-25% of what I paid for most of the stuff. I initially tried selling it at a profit or what I paid but had little interest so my choices were to hold it or take my lumps. Game used stuff is headed down the same path. In five years it will be beyond oversatured. But that is why this is a hobby. If your looking for investments this is not place to look. But It is fun and this stuff is just cool to have. By no means should someone invest the kids college money in it or money they cant afford to lose but its a good way to spend some disposable income.