Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

**dplettn** · 03-17-2011, 05:02 PM

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

Upon seeing the photos of what JO was selling as Game Used, I certainly noticed that the style of the Schutt helmet (including inner pads) matched my own (which I’d later learn other Bengals helmets they were selling did not), but even aside from the knowledge of what the use in and outside my Chad 2010 Game Used helmet looked like, I assumed anybody would look at that helmet and say, why isn’t it scratched up, why aren’t there sweat stains, etc.

I didn’t want to represent myself as an interested customer, so I didn’t say that I was. I also didn’t want to alert any unknown persons to what I owned, which is why I never posted my purchase on GUU initially. I figured the best thing was to try and ask questions that would help any upstanding person realize that what they had might need to be reconsidered. I figured the first thing to ask was about the previously referenced photo-match because then we could look at the purported photo-match together and they would experience an epiphany. I was also curious whether the Ridell helmet ever made it into a game at all.

March 2, At 1:28 PM EST
From my mobile phone I wrote back: ”What games were u able to photomatch to each?“

March 2nd, 2011 1:54 EST
JO e-mail response states:

“He wore the this schutt helmet for sure on 9/2/10, 9/26/10 & 11/21/10… These are just three easy pulls I found there might be one or two more games. I sent over pic’s one from each game. We have had a lot of hits on this helmet and it probably won’t be here very long. If your truly interested my suggestion is to move on it in a timely fashion. Let me know if you would like to move forward or have any other questions on it…”

From the above quote of the JO e-mail, please note that yes, both words "the" (which I assumed to refer to Schutt variety), and "this" (which I assumed to refer to the helmet in JOs possession) are present in the JO e-mail. Also, the "..." are actually in the text of the e-mail. I have not replaced or omitted any text from this e-mail.

**dplettn** · 03-17-2011, 05:27 PM

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

To say I was shocked by JO continuing to pitch the helmet as game used and photo-matched (without any actual photo-match), much less making specific claims of dated photomatches is an understatement. I began to wonder how quickly they would realize that their helmet wasn’t showing much use and potentially seek to change that if they were already representing having dated photo-matches for the helmet in their possession… so my focus turned to getting accurate, clear photos of the inside of the JO helmet.

March 2, At 2:23 PM EST
From my mobile phone I wrote back: “Pics inside, front, back of each Chad helmet, please.”

March 2nd, 2011 2:32 and 2:34 EST
JO e-mail sprovides 5 more photographs of their Schutt helmet and 3 more photos of the Ridell. Only 1 is an internal photo (of the Schutt) and appears to show 2 random hair fragments on top of a forehead pad appearing absent the sweat stains on my own. The pads, including cloth forehead pad that seemingly should be sweat stained all appear “new”, as does the chinstrap.

March 2nd, 2011 3:26 EST:

All 3 lines of My response:

“I'm most interested to see more pics (in higher resolution) of the inside of both helmets, but primarily of the Schutt.”

“The wear by the forehead... the stickers, etc.”

“ASAP, please.”

March 2nd, 2011 3:42 EST:
JO e-mail states: “Give me a little bit. The Helmet just went to espn radio station to be talked about here on our local espn radio show. I might be broadcast nation wide so tune in to you local espn radio if you want to hear them talk about it. It will be airing in 20-30 min. As soon as it returns you will have photos. I’m going to lunch and in an hour I will have photos of the inside stickers for you. It is not his practice helmet it has a conditioning sticker which was placed on the inside and the date on it is Aug. 10th …. (“…” is in the body of the e-mail) It’s yours if we can get it done today. We are expecting more hits as to the radio show and I want to be able to tell people it is sold and there too late.”

March 2nd, 2011 3:26 EST:
Knowing what I owned and having the opinions of the use on the JO helmet which I had, some people guess what I was thinking of the marketing tactics I was being exposed to. I truly was curious at this point how aggressively JO was going to tell the collecting marketplace believe that they were the bearer of something Chad had spent his 2010 playing NFL games in.

My entire response: “I don't know where/how to get ESPN radio, but if you have a link, transcript, or recording of what's said, I'd love to hear/read it.”

My question was never answered. The only media that ever showed up was video apparently taken by JO which later showed up hosted at cites like utube, which I found via google alerts based on marketing metatags, etc. That video avoided significantly showing the inside of Chad’s helmet.

March 2nd, 2011 5:19 EST:
JO e-mail states: “Hear are some high res. photo’s of the Ochocinco schutt helmet…” Attached are four photos, each less than 200 KB. One shows facemask use, One shows an unblemished 2010 Season Warranty sticker internal to the helmet, one shows a singular scuff on one of the external black helmet stripes, and the last shows a peculiar close-up of the two small hair blemishes on the forehead pad, absent any sweat stains such as what is present on mine.

The pics JO supplied are attached, unaltered. The pics are not scaled down from the sizes to which JO presented "high res. photo's" to me.

Attached Files

**dplettn** · 03-17-2011, 05:37 PM

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

I felt a bit relieved to know that if JO (or anyone who JO sold the helmet to) altered it from that state, I would have documentation of what the JO helmet once looked like (post purported “use”). However, I was astonished that JO Sports would still be presenting the helmet to me (and presumably others) as “game used” and that they had been claiming to have photo-matched it (an assertion which they would eventually walk away from)

March 2nd, 2011 7:37 EST:
My response was two lines:

“Is it just me, are you not seeing any (use) in the inner part of the Ochocinco Schutt helmet either?”

“To be clear, are you saying that this helmet was used during games, and if so on the dates you said that you photomatched?”

March 2nd, 2011 7:51 EST:
JO e-mail tries to claim the inside is “greasy” and that its “just hard to tell by photo”, and that it “has some hair”. On the subject photo matching the e-mail states “As to the photo matching it is from one of 5 games. If we move forward on the helmet I will pull pictures and photo match the hit marks and place the photo on photo paper for you. He wore this style of helmet in 5 games I went and did some research. Photo matching is 110% authenticity and you will also have an COA with hologram from us, J.O. Sports Co. Which I’m pretty sure you’ve heard about our great outstanding reputation. This definitely a Chad Ochocinco Gamer…. What are your thoughts on moving forward??? And doing a form of payment today…”

March 2nd, 2011 8:17 EST:
Two exact paragraph’s of my response:

“From the pictures on the inside, it appears on the forehead area there is absolutely no use... I've asked for high resolution pictures, but the only thing you are sharing with me is very tiny image files and at that resolution it would appear nobody ever sweated in the helmet, not even once... much less Chad...”

“There is a big difference between a photo match and a style match. What photo match have you shown me?”

March 2nd, 2011 8:28 EST:
JO e-mail states “Ok well I’ll have to show you tomorrow…. I’ll take the pads out and shoot them outside the helmet……. (“…” is in the body of the e-mail) My photo guy has left for the day and will be in in the a.m… (“…” is in the body of the e-mail) I’m going to release the helmet to my other sales man tomorrow so they can have an opportunity to sell it as well. It is policy here… (“…” is in the body of the e-mail) I will email you photos first thing in the morning.. (“..” is in the body of the e-mail) ”

March 3rd, 2011 12:59 EST:
After trying to phone, anxiously wanting to see whether JO was actually going to continue trying to market what they had in their possession as game used after I’d alerted them to the problems (without telling them what I own), I sent JO an e-mail follow up reminding them that I’d still like to see high resolution pictures (and for them to notice the lack of use) and again trying to get him to realize that what he was calling a photomatch was really just a stylematch.

March 3rd, 2011 1:23 EST:
JO e-mail states “I’m still on the phone with a customer. I can photo match the hit marks that are on the helmet. Hard to see with photos but easy to see in person… As too photos of the inside of the helmet, I’ve got my photographer taking photos today and it is on his list… As soon as he takes them I will send them over bud..”

There would be no follow up with me until March 8th... but it may be interesting to look at videos of Bengal's helmets that were uploaded on the internet in the interim. I'm curious if any other forum members were in contact with JO about the helmet(s) in the interim.

I'll get back to the timeline of my own observations and experiences as soon as I am able.

**ChrisCavalier** · 03-17-2011, 05:39 PM

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

Hello Dan,

Thank you for your posts. This is quite interesting. A couple of quick questons:

1) Just to make sure I am reading your posts correctly, are you stating the helmet the Bengals gave to JO Sports is not game used despite the fact the Bengals LOA claims it to be game used? I'm just trying to make sure I understand what you are stating.

2) Can you please post pictures of your helmet as well as the source from which you received the helmet? Obviously, based on your claims, your helmet was acquired through a legitimate source and it would help us understand how there may (or may not) have been confusion on the part of the Bengals.

I am familiar with team deals as I have been involved in them in the past and it would seem odd to me that the Bengals would sell a legitimate item to an individual and then provide a non-game used item to JO Sports who is contracted to get the game used items from the Bengals.

Thank you in advance for your reply.

Sincerely,
Chris

**mad87man** · 03-17-2011, 06:02 PM

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

I too am trying to figure it out. Are you saying they aren't game used helmetS? I know JO sells nothing but game used stuff. I have purchased more then enough stuff to know. I have bought 3 helmets from them and they all look pretty new on the inside but the outside is beat to hell(from games). I have a Brad Smith Jets helmet which is photomatched to the Chicago bears game and has no sweat stains/marks on the padding(that i have noticed, i'll have to take a look). I never questioned JO sports or would have a reason too.They get the stuff from the team, then from there sells it.

**dplettn** · 03-17-2011, 06:04 PM

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

Originally posted by ChrisCavalier

Hello Dan,

Thank you for your posts. This is quite interesting. A couple of quick questons:

1) Just to make sure I am reading your posts correctly, are you stating the helmet the Bengals gave to JO Sports is not game used despite the fact the Bengals LOA claims it to be game used? I'm just trying to make sure I understand what you are stating.

2) Can you please post pictures of your helmet as well as the source from which you received the helmet? Obviously, based on your claims, your helmet was acquired through a legitimate source and it would help us understand how there may (or may not) have been confusion on the part of the Bengals.

I am familiar with team deals as I have been involved in them in the past and it would seem odd to me that the Bengals would sell a legitimate item to an individual and then provide a non-game used item to JO Sports who is contracted to get the game used items from the Bengals.

Thank you in advance for your reply.

Sincerely,
Chris

Dear Chris

I applaud you for ensuring the integrity of the Board. I have no interest to state anything about what JO has. The photographs and JO can make whatever statements they desire to make about what JO has.

I have not decided yet whether I am or am not comfortable posting provenance and/or photographs of my helmet on the forum for everyone in the world to see. I am 100% comfortable e-mailing them to you with your assurance that you will view them only yourself, and not share them elsewhere unless legally demanded to do so. Although I may sound silly, I personally choose to be private with whom I share photographs of my possessions for various reasons.

You can e-mail me at plettner@fuse.net (which is the e-mail I display publically) or you can e-mail me at my registered e-mail which I prefer to keep private. Again, I understand the importance of a moderator and I have no problem with you verifying anything I say I own... I do own a Chad Ochocinco 2010 Game Used helmet with provenance either from the team, or the player. I do not owe anything to JO Sports to de-authenticate their item and I have no interest to de-authenticating it.

The legitimacy of JO's authentication process is their business, not mine. I merely want to share a timeline, and facts that were previously provided for potential dispute to the owner of JO Sports.

No one disputes that JO does business with the Bengals, JO and the Bengals are two entirely different parties. I do not owe anything to JO (or necessarily to the team referenced) to help anyone assess their various business relationships.

I do own you the right to anything you want to see privately to make sure that I'm not claiming to own something I don't really own. In theory is is possible that Chad used more than one helmet (for varying amounts of time) in at least one games... sure.... Its totally possible that what JO pitched me was worn in a game.

Did JO have the photomatches they claimed to have when they pitched me the helmet though? No.

Should the photos of the helmet JO is marketing (including video taken to the taste of JO marketing staff and uploaded by JO elsewhere) be available for viewing and discussion by GUU collectors? That's your call, obviously.

Should the timeline of JO marketing the helmet and how they propositioned me be available for viewing and discussion by GUU collectors? That's your call, obviously.

Respectfully Yours,
Dan

**sellingmygamers** · 03-17-2011, 07:07 PM

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

You are aware that many "blacks" wear the do-rags over there heads. With that you wouldn't get much sweat stains etc. on the inside of the helmets.
Why are you so scared to post info about your helmet? I could care less about Jo Sports but it appears your either schizophrenic or just trying to bash Jo sports?

**tspane2k** · 03-17-2011, 08:03 PM

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

I have also done much business with JO Sports and all items I have bought are easily photomatched. In my opinion there stuff is the best. But like I say that's just my opinion.

**commando** · 03-17-2011, 08:20 PM

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

dplettn,

Look, I'm not taking sides, but since you posted here....

It would be easy for you to post photos of your helmet, along with any photo matches and any other provenance you have. The fact that JO gets their items directly from many teams is beyond dispute, so I'd love to see this get resolved with a minimum amount of tap-dancing around the issue. You're a well-written person and obviously very meticulous with your research, so let's see it!

We all appreciate pics of a good NFL gamer helmet!

**helmets** · 03-17-2011, 08:31 PM

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

Chad JOHNSON has been wearing multiple helmets during the same season for years. He wore more than one helmet last season. A few years ago, he wore three different helmets during one season. He has worn both a Riddell Revolution and Schutt Air Advantages during the same season. It is quite possible - or rather probable, that both were used by Chad Johnson in games last season.

**legaleagle92481** · 03-17-2011, 08:42 PM

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

This post is very troubling to me. First, there is no such thing as ironclad authenticity. We have all heard stories and many of us have experienced first hand teams and players passing items off as game used but that were in fact not what they were claimed to be. Second, how do you know that Chad wore only one helmet during the time period in question and that such helmet was yours? Its a long season and unless you have nothing better to do then review video of every minute of every game of the year how do you know this for sure? So the title of your post is very misleading and possibly false. Third, you brought it up so why not show us the goods, your helmet and the photomatches you have found. This won't prove your case either way because he could have worn more than one helmet in a game but it will help us to judge your credibility. Do you really think someone is going to track you down and steal the helmet? This is an item that is probably worth around three grand which is expensive but not nearly as valuable as alot of what other forum members display. and there have been no reports of a rash of robberies of anyone on here. Your credibility is important on this issue because one could argue that you have a motive to try to discredit this helmet since you seem to want to have the only one out there from some of your comments. I have no idea what you paid but one could suspect maybe you paid a premium or got it fairly cheap and were hoping to flip and now that JO's marketing one yours is not unique anymore which you fear hurts its value. Im not saying this is the case just what some people might think. Fourth, Noone here has seen the helmet up close, including you there very well could be signs of us not evidenced in the pics or maybe someone from the team cleaned it for whatever reason or as another member said maybe he wore something on his head while wearing it or it was a second helmet that didn't see much action. Fifth, if this helmet is in fact not genuinely game used is it Jo's fault or the Bengals? JO and the Bengals may be seperate entities but they entered into a partnership in which the Bengals in exchange for what I am sure is alot of money agreed to supply them with their equipment on the understanding that JO would market and sell it to the public and the Bengals loyal fans and customers. If they did not send them a true gamer they violated that contract and owe JO damages. Fifth, the actions of the salesman are just that. Salesman are ambitious by nature since most get commissions and sometimes they puff a bit. One person's definition of photo match might not be the same as anothers. And aggressive sales tactics are just part of the game of many successful companies.

**mad87man** · 03-17-2011, 08:42 PM

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

Yeah like the post below me a lot of players not just Chad wears multiple during the year. I know David Harris has worn at least 2 different ones this year as one is the new Speed and he wore the old one at the beginning of the year. They may also just keep the shell and swap out pads if they get dirty or w/e. I mean how many people would wanna put on or wear the same sweat stained helmet? I would also like to see your Chad helmet as he is one of my fav. players.

**helmets** · 03-17-2011, 08:57 PM

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

In 2003 he wore at least three different helmets. In 2004 he wore two different helmets. In 2005 he wore three different helmets. Each season he seems to wear two different styles of masks on two different helmets. Possibly to tell the two helmets apart. In 2003 and 2004 he wore a Riddell VSR4 helmet with a Schutt ROPO-DW and an EGOP. In 2005 he wore Riddell VSR4 and Schutt Air Advantage with OPO-DW and EGOP masks, along with a 3rd helmet - a Riddell Revolution. In 2006 with Blonde hair, he again wore two different Air Advantages and a Riddell Revolution - etc, etc, etc.

Give me a good old Packer suspension helmet that was worn for an entire career for $1,000 - 2,000 any day over an overrated prima donna's helmet worn for four games for 5 grand.

**dplettn** · 03-17-2011, 11:26 PM

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

I do understand the positions of those of you who request me to post photographs of my helmet and the provenance on the site. Many of you are comfortable posting pictures of your items with pride. Perhaps I'm exceedingly cautious, but it took me about 2 weeks to decide to even post on the subject at all.

I'm 100% comfortable sharing it privately with the moderator, and with other members with whom I've gotten to know and feel comfortable trusting that it will be kept private. Nothing against the judgment of those who share their pictures for the whole world to see (posting items is prideful)... but I fear the possibility that providing pictures or provenance of an item publicly would make it comparatively more likely for either an item or its provenance to be imitated.

I am curious whether seeing a like-style item displaying significant use is necessary to assess photos of an alternate item marketed as "photo-matched" to specific games for quite some time by JO Sports.

As funny as it is to hear people talk about the possibility of Chad wearing a do-rag over his head, preventing sweat reaching a helmet the point is pretty clear. Disproving at least momentary use of anything is totally impossible unless you are talking about the helmet being the wrong team, and then perhaps someone could argue it was repainted. I have no interest in disproving at least momentary "game wearing" of JO's item.

I'll continue to consider sharing pictures of my helmet although I've not made a habit of doing such a thing. But could somebody please tell me how my pictures are relevant to JO's representations of "photomatch", and the extent to which the JO helmet does or does not display use? I honestly don't see how my pictures are relevant except to prove that I didn't just make up this whole post for fun. And that same thing can be accomplished by only revealing them to the moderator, privately. If there is a greater good to the collecting community, I can probably be persuaded to share photos of my item upon coming to appreciate what function it would serve.

Would it be appreciated/sufficient to post only photos of the inside, and outside that cropped out the provenance letter held up next to if I supplied the provenance letter (either team or said player) only privately to the moderator?

Respectfully Yours,
Dan

Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

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