Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

[dplettn]

Much has been written here about JO Sports. Certainly there are many valid opinions. It is not my place to judge their pricing strategies. However, I was alarmed when I was propositioned by JO Sports to buy a Chad Ochocinco Cincinnati Bengals helmet (represented as game used), said to be “easily photomatched” to particular dates.


The alarm in my head went off in major ways not only because the product JO offered to sell me duplicates what I already own, but because I have iron-clad written provenance (written documentation from either the player or team) for use of my 2010 game used Chad Ochocinco helmet, which corresponds to the game photos JO sent. My item also shows significant use inside the helmet which by my eyes is severely lacking in the products JO was marketing as the subject of its “photo matching”.
I will today in thisp post begin a timeline, and post photographs provided by JO of the helmet they attempted to sell me as game used. I have a longer timeline which still requires grammar editing before I post.



That timeline has already been shared with the owner of JO Sports who disputed no facts as to how his company marketed the item. In fairness to JO, upon learning that I was going to reveal this situation, JO claims they have stopped calling the item “photomatched”. In my personal view the timeline and specific marketing choices reveal much more than just a simple error though. In our last conversation today, JO made clear they continue to offer the item as Game Used until its proven not to be. I was asked by the owner how I know the helmet wasn’t “used for a quarter”?

***Below begins a timeline***


January 5th, 2011:
I purchase 2010 Bengal Game Used Helmet of “Chad Ochocinco” and receive Iron Clad Written Provenance from either the Bengals or Ochocinco (which of the two I’ll keep to myself). The same signers of the documentation is/are the party that sold the item directly to me. Helmet, internal pads, facemask, chinstrap, etc all displays significant use (internal and external). The use is absolutely unmistakable. Internal to the helmet is a March 2010 Recertification sticker in addition to the original Schutt sticker. I find further comfort in comparing to photos (including some non-published personal use photos) throughout the season, which aside from a photo of a Ridell helmet (no player in it) on the sideline during the Colts game appear to match my helmet, even as the interchangeable facemask is changed for some games.


March 2nd, 2011 12:40 PM EST:
I receive an e-mail from JO Sports which introduces/markets: … our Bengals gear for the 2010 NFL Season… We just got in Helmets and Pants for every player as well as jerseys. All are game used and have great wear... I will give you the list of helmets that we just received, if your interested in any items I can send you pic’s and pricing. {spelling error reproduced, my apologies}


March 2nd, 2011 12:44 PM EST:
Curious, I reply “I'd like to see the list!”


March 2nd, 2011 12:56 PM EST:
I receive the helmet list, which includes “Chad Ochocinco”, priced at $5. e-mail further states “Shoot me out some names you would like to look at and I’ll send you some photos….”


March 2nd, 2011 12:58 PM EST:
Totally perplexed how an organization like JO could be selling something seeming to conflict with my iron clad provenance I reply: “Can I see pics (front, back, inside) of the 2 Ochocinco helmets, please?”

March 2nd, 2011 1:11 PM EST:
I receive 6 photos in a JO e-mail, all external photographs and none showing use of any significance. E-mail text says:
“Here’s both styles of helmets… the second helmet (Schutt, same “style” as mine) is really sweet! It is easily photo matched and worn in a couple games. It’s the newest style of Schutt helmet and he was the first one to wear it… (“…” is in the body of the e-mail) If you would like to move forward on it let me know and we can discuss pricing and details…. (“…” is in the body of the e-mail) All helmets come with Certificates of Authenticity from us stating that the all items were indeed obtained directly from the Cincinnati Bengals…”


The second helmet photographed (Ridell) is clearly the helmet that was photographed (absent Chad) on the sideline during the Colts game. It was very reassuring to my hope that he never actually used a different helmet than mine when I saw the lack of use.


The Schutt helmet JO Photographed had the alternate (changeable) facemask variation Chad used this year attached to it, which caused me to want to see the inside of the helmet so that I could be open-minded to whether both helmets had been used with the facemasks currently attached to them, or whether one primary helmet had been used.




**I've attached to this post pictures provided by JO of the helmet they were trying to sell me (as game used)**


The timeline will be continued and more pictures submitted as I have time to continue. This post only tells the story through March 2nd at 1:11 PM EST

[dplettn]

Upon seeing the photos of what JO was selling as Game Used, I certainly noticed that the style of the Schutt helmet (including inner pads) matched my own (which I’d later learn other Bengals helmets they were selling did not), but even aside from the knowledge of what the use in and outside my Chad 2010 Game Used helmet looked like, I assumed anybody would look at that helmet and say, why isn’t it scratched up, why aren’t there sweat stains, etc.


I didn’t want to represent myself as an interested customer, so I didn’t say that I was. I also didn’t want to alert any unknown persons to what I owned, which is why I never posted my purchase on GUU initially. I figured the best thing was to try and ask questions that would help any upstanding person realize that what they had might need to be reconsidered. I figured the first thing to ask was about the previously referenced photo-match because then we could look at the purported photo-match together and they would experience an epiphany. I was also curious whether the Ridell helmet ever made it into a game at all.

March 2, At 1:28 PM EST
From my mobile phone I wrote back: ”What games were u able to photomatch to each?“

March 2nd, 2011 1:54 EST
JO e-mail response states:



“He wore the this schutt helmet for sure on 9/2/10, 9/26/10 & 11/21/10… These are just three easy pulls I found there might be one or two more games. I sent over pic’s one from each game. We have had a lot of hits on this helmet and it probably won’t be here very long. If your truly interested my suggestion is to move on it in a timely fashion. Let me know if you would like to move forward or have any other questions on it…”


From the above quote of the JO e-mail, please note that yes, both words "the" (which I assumed to refer to Schutt variety), and "this" (which I assumed to refer to the helmet in JOs possession) are present in the JO e-mail. Also, the "..." are actually in the text of the e-mail. I have not replaced or omitted any text from this e-mail.

[dplettn]

To say I was shocked by JO continuing to pitch the helmet as game used and photo-matched (without any actual photo-match), much less making specific claims of dated photomatches is an understatement. I began to wonder how quickly they would realize that their helmet wasn’t showing much use and potentially seek to change that if they were already representing having dated photo-matches for the helmet in their possession… so my focus turned to getting accurate, clear photos of the inside of the JO helmet.


March 2, At 2:23 PM EST
From my mobile phone I wrote back: “Pics inside, front, back of each Chad helmet, please.”


March 2nd, 2011 2:32 and 2:34 EST
JO e-mail sprovides 5 more photographs of their Schutt helmet and 3 more photos of the Ridell. Only 1 is an internal photo (of the Schutt) and appears to show 2 random hair fragments on top of a forehead pad appearing absent the sweat stains on my own. The pads, including cloth forehead pad that seemingly should be sweat stained all appear “new”, as does the chinstrap.


March 2nd, 2011 3:26 EST:


All 3 lines of My response:


“I'm most interested to see more pics (in higher resolution) of the inside of both helmets, but primarily of the Schutt.”

“The wear by the forehead... the stickers, etc.”

“ASAP, please.”


March 2nd, 2011 3:42 EST:
JO e-mail states: “Give me a little bit. The Helmet just went to espn radio station to be talked about here on our local espn radio show. I might be broadcast nation wide so tune in to you local espn radio if you want to hear them talk about it. It will be airing in 20-30 min. As soon as it returns you will have photos. I’m going to lunch and in an hour I will have photos of the inside stickers for you. It is not his practice helmet it has a conditioning sticker which was placed on the inside and the date on it is Aug. 10th …. (“…” is in the body of the e-mail) It’s yours if we can get it done today. We are expecting more hits as to the radio show and I want to be able to tell people it is sold and there too late.”


March 2nd, 2011 3:26 EST:
Knowing what I owned and having the opinions of the use on the JO helmet which I had, some people guess what I was thinking of the marketing tactics I was being exposed to. I truly was curious at this point how aggressively JO was going to tell the collecting marketplace believe that they were the bearer of something Chad had spent his 2010 playing NFL games in.


My entire response: “I don't know where/how to get ESPN radio, but if you have a link, transcript, or recording of what's said, I'd love to hear/read it.”


My question was never answered. The only media that ever showed up was video apparently taken by JO which later showed up hosted at cites like utube, which I found via google alerts based on marketing metatags, etc. That video avoided significantly showing the inside of Chad’s helmet.


March 2nd, 2011 5:19 EST:
JO e-mail states: “Hear are some high res. photo’s of the Ochocinco schutt helmet…” Attached are four photos, each less than 200 KB. One shows facemask use, One shows an unblemished 2010 Season Warranty sticker internal to the helmet, one shows a singular scuff on one of the external black helmet stripes, and the last shows a peculiar close-up of the two small hair blemishes on the forehead pad, absent any sweat stains such as what is present on mine.


The pics JO supplied are attached, unaltered. The pics are not scaled down from the sizes to which JO presented "high res. photo's" to me.

[dplettn]

I felt a bit relieved to know that if JO (or anyone who JO sold the helmet to) altered it from that state, I would have documentation of what the JO helmet once looked like (post purported “use”). However, I was astonished that JO Sports would still be presenting the helmet to me (and presumably others) as “game used” and that they had been claiming to have photo-matched it (an assertion which they would eventually walk away from)


March 2nd, 2011 7:37 EST:
My response was two lines:


“Is it just me, are you not seeing any (use) in the inner part of the Ochocinco Schutt helmet either?”

“To be clear, are you saying that this helmet was used during games, and if so on the dates you said that you photomatched?”

March 2nd, 2011 7:51 EST:
JO e-mail tries to claim the inside is “greasy” and that its “just hard to tell by photo”, and that it “has some hair”. On the subject photo matching the e-mail states “As to the photo matching it is from one of 5 games. If we move forward on the helmet I will pull pictures and photo match the hit marks and place the photo on photo paper for you. He wore this style of helmet in 5 games I went and did some research. Photo matching is 110% authenticity and you will also have an COA with hologram from us, J.O. Sports Co. Which I’m pretty sure you’ve heard about our great outstanding reputation. This definitely a Chad Ochocinco Gamer…. What are your thoughts on moving forward??? And doing a form of payment today…”

March 2nd, 2011 8:17 EST:
Two exact paragraph’s of my response:


“From the pictures on the inside, it appears on the forehead area there is absolutely no use... I've asked for high resolution pictures, but the only thing you are sharing with me is very tiny image files and at that resolution it would appear nobody ever sweated in the helmet, not even once... much less Chad...”

“There is a big difference between a photo match and a style match. What photo match have you shown me?”


March 2nd, 2011 8:28 EST:
JO e-mail states “Ok well I’ll have to show you tomorrow…. I’ll take the pads out and shoot them outside the helmet……. (“…” is in the body of the e-mail) My photo guy has left for the day and will be in in the a.m… (“…” is in the body of the e-mail) I’m going to release the helmet to my other sales man tomorrow so they can have an opportunity to sell it as well. It is policy here… (“…” is in the body of the e-mail) I will email you photos first thing in the morning.. (“..” is in the body of the e-mail) ”


March 3rd, 2011 12:59 EST:
After trying to phone, anxiously wanting to see whether JO was actually going to continue trying to market what they had in their possession as game used after I’d alerted them to the problems (without telling them what I own), I sent JO an e-mail follow up reminding them that I’d still like to see high resolution pictures (and for them to notice the lack of use) and again trying to get him to realize that what he was calling a photomatch was really just a stylematch.

March 3rd, 2011 1:23 EST:
JO e-mail states “I’m still on the phone with a customer. I can photo match the hit marks that are on the helmet. Hard to see with photos but easy to see in person… As too photos of the inside of the helmet, I’ve got my photographer taking photos today and it is on his list… As soon as he takes them I will send them over bud..”


There would be no follow up with me until March 8th... but it may be interesting to look at videos of Bengal's helmets that were uploaded on the internet in the interim. I'm curious if any other forum members were in contact with JO about the helmet(s) in the interim.


I'll get back to the timeline of my own observations and experiences as soon as I am able.

[ChrisCavalier]

Hello Dan,

Thank you for your posts. This is quite interesting. A couple of quick questons:

1) Just to make sure I am reading your posts correctly, are you stating the helmet the Bengals gave to JO Sports is not game used despite the fact the Bengals LOA claims it to be game used? I'm just trying to make sure I understand what you are stating.

2) Can you please post pictures of your helmet as well as the source from which you received the helmet? Obviously, based on your claims, your helmet was acquired through a legitimate source and it would help us understand how there may (or may not) have been confusion on the part of the Bengals.

I am familiar with team deals as I have been involved in them in the past and it would seem odd to me that the Bengals would sell a legitimate item to an individual and then provide a non-game used item to JO Sports who is contracted to get the game used items from the Bengals.

Thank you in advance for your reply.

Sincerely,
Chris

[mad87man]

I too am trying to figure it out. Are you saying they aren't game used helmetS? I know JO sells nothing but game used stuff. I have purchased more then enough stuff to know. I have bought 3 helmets from them and they all look pretty new on the inside but the outside is beat to hell(from games). I have a Brad Smith Jets helmet which is photomatched to the Chicago bears game and has no sweat stains/marks on the padding(that i have noticed, i'll have to take a look). I never questioned JO sports or would have a reason too.They get the stuff from the team, then from there sells it.

[dplettn]

Hello Dan,

Thank you for your posts. This is quite interesting. A couple of quick questons:

1) Just to make sure I am reading your posts correctly, are you stating the helmet the Bengals gave to JO Sports is not game used despite the fact the Bengals LOA claims it to be game used? I'm just trying to make sure I understand what you are stating.

2) Can you please post pictures of your helmet as well as the source from which you received the helmet? Obviously, based on your claims, your helmet was acquired through a legitimate source and it would help us understand how there may (or may not) have been confusion on the part of the Bengals.

I am familiar with team deals as I have been involved in them in the past and it would seem odd to me that the Bengals would sell a legitimate item to an individual and then provide a non-game used item to JO Sports who is contracted to get the game used items from the Bengals.

Thank you in advance for your reply.

Sincerely,
Chris

Dear Chris

I applaud you for ensuring the integrity of the Board. I have no interest to state anything about what JO has. The photographs and JO can make whatever statements they desire to make about what JO has.

I have not decided yet whether I am or am not comfortable posting provenance and/or photographs of my helmet on the forum for everyone in the world to see. I am 100% comfortable e-mailing them to you with your assurance that you will view them only yourself, and not share them elsewhere unless legally demanded to do so. Although I may sound silly, I personally choose to be private with whom I share photographs of my possessions for various reasons.

You can e-mail me at plettner@fuse.net (which is the e-mail I display publically) or you can e-mail me at my registered e-mail which I prefer to keep private. Again, I understand the importance of a moderator and I have no problem with you verifying anything I say I own... I do own a Chad Ochocinco 2010 Game Used helmet with provenance either from the team, or the player. I do not owe anything to JO Sports to de-authenticate their item and I have no interest to de-authenticating it.

The legitimacy of JO's authentication process is their business, not mine. I merely want to share a timeline, and facts that were previously provided for potential dispute to the owner of JO Sports.

No one disputes that JO does business with the Bengals, JO and the Bengals are two entirely different parties. I do not owe anything to JO (or necessarily to the team referenced) to help anyone assess their various business relationships.

I do own you the right to anything you want to see privately to make sure that I'm not claiming to own something I don't really own. In theory is is possible that Chad used more than one helmet (for varying amounts of time) in at least one games... sure.... Its totally possible that what JO pitched me was worn in a game.

Did JO have the photomatches they claimed to have when they pitched me the helmet though? No.

Should the photos of the helmet JO is marketing (including video taken to the taste of JO marketing staff and uploaded by JO elsewhere) be available for viewing and discussion by GUU collectors? That's your call, obviously.

Should the timeline of JO marketing the helmet and how they propositioned me be available for viewing and discussion by GUU collectors? That's your call, obviously.

Respectfully Yours,
Dan

[sellingmygamers]

You are aware that many "blacks" wear the do-rags over there heads. With that you wouldn't get much sweat stains etc. on the inside of the helmets.
Why are you so scared to post info about your helmet? I could care less about Jo Sports but it appears your either schizophrenic or just trying to bash Jo sports?

[tspane2k]

I have also done much business with JO Sports and all items I have bought are easily photomatched. In my opinion there stuff is the best. But like I say that's just my opinion.

[commando]

dplettn,

Look, I'm not taking sides, but since you posted here....

It would be easy for you to post photos of your helmet, along with any photo matches and any other provenance you have. The fact that JO gets their items directly from many teams is beyond dispute, so I'd love to see this get resolved with a minimum amount of tap-dancing around the issue. You're a well-written person and obviously very meticulous with your research, so let's see it!

We all appreciate pics of a good NFL gamer helmet! :)

[helmets]

Chad JOHNSON has been wearing multiple helmets during the same season for years. He wore more than one helmet last season. A few years ago, he wore three different helmets during one season. He has worn both a Riddell Revolution and Schutt Air Advantages during the same season. It is quite possible - or rather probable, that both were used by Chad Johnson in games last season.

[legaleagle92481]

This post is very troubling to me. First, there is no such thing as ironclad authenticity. We have all heard stories and many of us have experienced first hand teams and players passing items off as game used but that were in fact not what they were claimed to be. Second, how do you know that Chad wore only one helmet during the time period in question and that such helmet was yours? Its a long season and unless you have nothing better to do then review video of every minute of every game of the year how do you know this for sure? So the title of your post is very misleading and possibly false. Third, you brought it up so why not show us the goods, your helmet and the photomatches you have found. This won't prove your case either way because he could have worn more than one helmet in a game but it will help us to judge your credibility. Do you really think someone is going to track you down and steal the helmet? This is an item that is probably worth around three grand which is expensive but not nearly as valuable as alot of what other forum members display. and there have been no reports of a rash of robberies of anyone on here. Your credibility is important on this issue because one could argue that you have a motive to try to discredit this helmet since you seem to want to have the only one out there from some of your comments. I have no idea what you paid but one could suspect maybe you paid a premium or got it fairly cheap and were hoping to flip and now that JO's marketing one yours is not unique anymore which you fear hurts its value. Im not saying this is the case just what some people might think. Fourth, Noone here has seen the helmet up close, including you there very well could be signs of us not evidenced in the pics or maybe someone from the team cleaned it for whatever reason or as another member said maybe he wore something on his head while wearing it or it was a second helmet that didn't see much action. Fifth, if this helmet is in fact not genuinely game used is it Jo's fault or the Bengals? JO and the Bengals may be seperate entities but they entered into a partnership in which the Bengals in exchange for what I am sure is alot of money agreed to supply them with their equipment on the understanding that JO would market and sell it to the public and the Bengals loyal fans and customers. If they did not send them a true gamer they violated that contract and owe JO damages. Fifth, the actions of the salesman are just that. Salesman are ambitious by nature since most get commissions and sometimes they puff a bit. One person's definition of photo match might not be the same as anothers. And aggressive sales tactics are just part of the game of many successful companies.

[mad87man]

Yeah like the post below me a lot of players not just Chad wears multiple during the year. I know David Harris has worn at least 2 different ones this year as one is the new Speed and he wore the old one at the beginning of the year. They may also just keep the shell and swap out pads if they get dirty or w/e. I mean how many people would wanna put on or wear the same sweat stained helmet? I would also like to see your Chad helmet as he is one of my fav. players.

[helmets]

In 2003 he wore at least three different helmets. In 2004 he wore two different helmets. In 2005 he wore three different helmets. Each season he seems to wear two different styles of masks on two different helmets. Possibly to tell the two helmets apart. In 2003 and 2004 he wore a Riddell VSR4 helmet with a Schutt ROPO-DW and an EGOP. In 2005 he wore Riddell VSR4 and Schutt Air Advantage with OPO-DW and EGOP masks, along with a 3rd helmet - a Riddell Revolution. In 2006 with Blonde hair, he again wore two different Air Advantages and a Riddell Revolution - etc, etc, etc.

Give me a good old Packer suspension helmet that was worn for an entire career for $1,000 - 2,000 any day over an overrated prima donna's helmet worn for four games for 5 grand.

[dplettn]

I do understand the positions of those of you who request me to post photographs of my helmet and the provenance on the site. Many of you are comfortable posting pictures of your items with pride. Perhaps I'm exceedingly cautious, but it took me about 2 weeks to decide to even post on the subject at all.

I'm 100% comfortable sharing it privately with the moderator, and with other members with whom I've gotten to know and feel comfortable trusting that it will be kept private. Nothing against the judgment of those who share their pictures for the whole world to see (posting items is prideful)... but I fear the possibility that providing pictures or provenance of an item publicly would make it comparatively more likely for either an item or its provenance to be imitated.

I am curious whether seeing a like-style item displaying significant use is necessary to assess photos of an alternate item marketed as "photo-matched" to specific games for quite some time by JO Sports.

As funny as it is to hear people talk about the possibility of Chad wearing a do-rag over his head, preventing sweat reaching a helmet the point is pretty clear. Disproving at least momentary use of anything is totally impossible unless you are talking about the helmet being the wrong team, and then perhaps someone could argue it was repainted. I have no interest in disproving at least momentary "game wearing" of JO's item.

I'll continue to consider sharing pictures of my helmet although I've not made a habit of doing such a thing. But could somebody please tell me how my pictures are relevant to JO's representations of "photomatch", and the extent to which the JO helmet does or does not display use? I honestly don't see how my pictures are relevant except to prove that I didn't just make up this whole post for fun. And that same thing can be accomplished by only revealing them to the moderator, privately. If there is a greater good to the collecting community, I can probably be persuaded to share photos of my item upon coming to appreciate what function it would serve.

Would it be appreciated/sufficient to post only photos of the inside, and outside that cropped out the provenance letter held up next to if I supplied the provenance letter (either team or said player) only privately to the moderator?

Respectfully Yours,
Dan

[orioles03]

a link to a pics of chad with four helmets in his locker
http://backseatfan.com/2009/12/chad-ochocinco-loves-his-snuggie/

[orioles03]

another http://twitter.com/ochocinco/status/19790210452

[platinum1]

another http://twitter.com/ochocinco/status/19790210452

My 4 helmets I wear during the season, I switch up based on
what cleats n gloves I wear http://twitpic.com/29legd (http://twitpic.com/29legd) 7:22 PM Jul 28th, 2010 (http://twitter.com/ochocinco/status/19790210452) via Twitpic (http://twitpic.com/) Retweeted by 23 people
http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/large/137047405.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0ZRYP5X5F6FSMBCCSE82&Expires=1300425144&Signature=Q2qsMZamRIr%2BftBI4r%2BYA2nKlv0%3D

[nycpropain]

If you think your helmet is the only one used in a season you are very very wrong. As its been shown already he uses AT the very LEAST 4. If one is damaged beyond repair that number could be more.

[Shipp_96]

I personally find it's ironic that the player wearing these helmets (Chad), has no issues posting them for the WORLD to see, but someone who owns one fears just a handful of people viewing it. Just my two cents ;).

[helmets]

It is quite possibly the fact that Johnson wears multiple helmets each season - that you even were able to obtain your helmet. Had he only wore one helmet in a season as most players, it most certainly would have gone to JO, and you would still be negotiating and looking for high res photos of sweat stains, while someone else - quite familiar with their reputation bought it out from under you. Consider yourself lucky that you were able to get a helmet worn for part of one season - for quite possibly the same price as you would have paid for a true hall of famer's helmet that was worn for multiple seasons.

[otismalibu]

Quite often the term "photo matched" is used, when it's really nothing more than style matched. I don't know if that's an issue here, but as I wade through I've seen "photo match" mentioned more than once.

[BULBUS]

dplettn,

do you have any conclusive photo matches on your helmet?

-chris

[allstarsplus]

a link to a pics of chad with four helmets in his locker
http://backseatfan.com/2009/12/chad-ochocinco-loves-his-snuggie/

Multiple helmets is also along the same lines of players who wear 2 jerseys per game as they change at halftime. This was a common practice with many of the Redskins star players which is why a photomatch is your best COA.

[solarlottry]

I have posted 8 Steve Young, 2 Jerry Rice, 2 Joe Montana and about 60 other game used 49er shirts all of which are probably harder to find and more expensive to obtain than a 2010 game used CJ lid. The excuse of not wanting to post images after calling out a well recognized and respected seller, because of the fear of someone else copying your item is junk. I also collect science fiction books and whenever a seller would not send me images a red flag would go off and the item was invariably a fake. I am in no way stating that the original posters helmet is not 100% authentic but by not posting pictures it just makes the entire post seem strange. Why not just PM the moderator about the issue instead and go from there?

I am also in no way defending JO but they do deserve the benefit of the doubt as they did send you images as you requested but you refuse to do the same. I have had my fair share of issues with JO but they have always done their best to resolve those issues fairly and quickly once brought to their attention. In the business they are in reputation is everything and I doubt they would destroy theirs over a single game used helmet. They are a business in the business of making $$$ but will work with collectors to ensure that they are happy too.

By posting images of your helmet you place the ball in their court and show the entire collecting community what you are talking about. By not you just sound like you are pissed off that he wears more than one helmet in a season.

Always buying 49ers gamers and ANY player with team letter
Paul
garciajones@yahoo.com

[dplettn]

another http://twitter.com/ochocinco/status/19790210452

Now, that is one interesting tweeted photo (chad's July 29, 2010 upload). In viewing the 4 helmets Chad photo'd as his, I see one (and only 1) Schutt helmet with the pad scheme displayed in JO's photos.

We all have equal opportunity to view publicly available photos to see when he wore Schutt and when he wore Riddell. I'm curious what others think of the use displayed in JO Sports' photos.

[commando]

Here is the helmet the Ocho tweeted:

[BULBUS]

Here is the helmet the Ocho tweeted:

By the date of the tweet and the picture below from getty, that helmet matches one he was using in camp. Notice the screw on the right is white and the one on the left is silver.

42007

dplettn,
does this match your helmet?

[BU54CB]

I have posted 8 Steve Young, 2 Jerry Rice, 2 Joe Montana and about 60 other game used 49er shirts all of which are probably harder to find and more expensive to obtain than a 2010 game used CJ lid. The excuse of not wanting to post images after calling out a well recognized and respected seller, because of the fear of someone else copying your item is junk. I also collect science fiction books and whenever a seller would not send me images a red flag would go off and the item was invariably a fake. I am in no way stating that the original posters helmet is not 100% authentic but by not posting pictures it just makes the entire post seem strange. Why not just PM the moderator about the issue instead and go from there?

I am also in no way defending JO but they do deserve the benefit of the doubt as they did send you images as you requested but you refuse to do the same. I have had my fair share of issues with JO but they have always done their best to resolve those issues fairly and quickly once brought to their attention. In the business they are in reputation is everything and I doubt they would destroy theirs over a single game used helmet. They are a business in the business of making $$$ but will work with collectors to ensure that they are happy too.

By posting images of your helmet you place the ball in their court and show the entire collecting community what you are talking about. By not you just sound like you are pissed off that he wears more than one helmet in a season.

Always buying 49ers gamers and ANY player with team letter
Paul
garciajones@yahoo.com

Well said, people post photos all over the place of their items regardless of the dollar value (although one might question the value of some scrub 49ers GU jerseys like Montana, Young, and Rice ;) )

I don't understand the point of questioning the authenticity of an item being sold by any party if you're not going to offer unquestionable proof the item being sold isn't authentic. The whole timeline and posting of emails really doesn't prove anything other than the fact that you emailed JO about the helmet.

dplettn, I can't see how anyone can take your argument or case seriously without presenting proof, which I think will be difficult as it seems Chad Johnson wears multiple helmets during a season. If you feel that you can't show your photos, I don't understand why you bothered to take this issue public.

[josportsco]

The screw IS NOT white. both are silver/metal. that is lighting that has brightened the screw making it look white.



By the date of the tweet and the picture below from getty, that helmet matches one he was using in camp. Notice the screw on the right is white and the one on the left is silver.

48695

dplettn,
does this match your helmet?

[josportsco]

Dan, How is your agenda going now?

Everything everyone has posted here is exactly what I asked and expressed of you prior to you posting. Please send me pictures of your CJ helmet showing undisputable photomatching evidence to every game CJ wore your helmet, along with the game action photos. –your response “why would I want to help you.” “why would I want to give you leverage with the Bengals.” I responded and told you I don’t need leverage with the Bengals, my exclusive contract with the team is leverage. I just wanted to see your helmet and IF it is photomatched to every game you claim it is, so I could express my concerns with the team.

At that point I got the feeling there was a agenda on your end. Well, come to find out there was. I asked you if you have animosity of our company because we have a deal with the Bengals? Your response “yes there is some animosity. Because you have cornered the market for Bengals equipment and I cannot afford to buy at your prices. And I cannot get stuff as easy from my source” and you went on to say that I have never done anything to become your “friend”. So I asked you what we have that you wanted, your response “I want a Carson Palmer game worn jersey” you then stated “I can’t afford it at your prices” so I asked you to make a fair offer for the jersey - your response floored me “I will give you $350 for the Carson Palmer jersey” - enough said, I do not have to elaborate.

Listen, I asked for your help to PROVE your helmet to be the ONLY helmet worn, but you declined because you have “animosity” and “you don’t want to give me leverage”. So you said you will let the collecting community make the decision.

Here is the deal, your statement regarding not posting your helmet and “impeccable” source either from player or team tells me that you have something to hide. Is it from the PLAYER or TEAM or BOTH?? Which is it? Let’s see the helmet? You are the one who wanted to bring this to public forum so show us all your evidence. You are the one who has made accusations toward our helmet.

So let me make this statement until you prove me wrong: You better hope that the purchase of your Chad Ochocinco helmet was a “LEGAL” purchase!! Because by making this public and accusing me I am now forced to go the Bengals and find out WHY the team sold a piece of merchandise that is in our contract to a collector like yourself. There is only 1 very small loop hole that you could have obtained it from IF you bought it from the team. And if that was the case you would have no problem sharing your “IRONCLAD” provenance. I will take this subject up with the team on Monday to see if they can help me with my provenance and make them aware of your claims. I have no reason to hide anything so I will tell you this matter will be in the hands of (starting at the bottom): Brian Sells Asst. Dir. of Corporate Sales and Marketing, Vince Cicero Dir of Corporate Sales and Marketing, Jim Lippincott Dir of FB Ops, and Paul Brown VP – Player Personnel.

So if you just let us all know what your “IRONCLAD” provenance is and pictures of your helmet then we can make sure that your helmet “integrity” and “value” is maintained as you stated to me is your purpose.

[BULBUS]

The screw IS NOT white. both are silver/metal. that is lighting that has brightened the screw making it look white.

Seriously, the lighting??? On both the tweet image and the outdoor getty image??? Look at them both again.

[dplettn]

By the date of the tweet and the picture below from getty, that helmet matches one he was using in camp. Notice the screw on the right is white and the one on the left is silver.

48695

dplettn,
does this match your helmet?

The Getty Photo is not in high enough resolution to search for abrasions on the outside of the helmet that are present on mine. Assuming it was around the July time, such abrasions may or may not yet have happened at that time. The Getty photo posted by Bulbus and the the cropped version of the July Ocho tweet both represent style matches (helmet, facemask, chinstrap) of the item I own.

With regard to the screws, they are all the same color. The photo believed be a poster to show two colors is actually showing alternate affects of light reflecting off the screw. I would like to be clear that my screws are in different rotational position from the Ocho tweet.

The screws I understand to screw out/in as part of changing out facemasks, although I've done no such thing.

It is my opinion after judging the use internal and external to my helmet in relation to other helmets that my helmet was used over lengths of time with multiple facemasks. That is not to offer an opinion as to whether JO's helmet was or was not ever used.

I never did hear from Chris as to whether he'd like access to photos as moderator. I did share photos with a trusted fellow GUU member today. For those who have taken the information as to how a helmet was marketed by JO with our without accurate detail and facts, and the availability here of photos of what JO is offering as Game Used (and was previously offering as "photomatched") as reason to question my character, it may benefit the forum to have somebody else comment as to what they can interpret from my photos of both my helmet and provenance.

Please know I am not suggesting that there are across the board problems with JOs merchandise, nor any problem at all. I know of one person who very much has great comfort (and rightfully so, I think) with the particular item they purchased from JO based on that item's characteristics. Also, I'm not suggesting my item is better than other people's items. No, I don't think my helmet has more economic value that other things that are posted on the forum every day. I totally respect and and every person's decisions to post photos of their items on GUU, even if I don't share in all their comforts. I wish I did share in that comfort because our items are a great pride to share with friends.

[dplettn]

Seriously, the lighting??? On both the tweet image and the outdoor getty image??? Look at them both again.

Lighting, reflection, whatever you want to call it. Yes, seriously. Perhaps somebody else who owns a Schutt helmet with the same screw system can describe to you the indoor lighting's reflection off the screws.

[nycpropain]

You went from being "alarmed" and being accusatory to back peddling in the matter of what 2 days?

[dplettn]

Dan, How is your agenda going now?

My “agenda”? Really, what agenda do I have for sharing a factual timeline of what your company pitched me?

Accusing somebody of having an “agenda” is a lot like demanding that they send you a minimum of 10 pictures of the inside and outside of your helmet, and photomatches for every game. I didn’t market anything to you in any form to you. Your company marketed to me as not only game used, but photomatched, on specific dates. What does my helmet have to do with whether JOs claims were true and whether JOs marketing practices were anywhere near ethical?

[dplettn]

Everything everyone has posted here is exactly what I asked and expressed of you prior to you posting. Please send me pictures of your CJ helmet showing undisputable photomatching evidence to every game CJ wore your helmet, along with the game action photos. –your response “why would I want to help you.” “why would I want to give you leverage with the Bengals.” I responded and told you I don’t need leverage with the Bengals, my exclusive contract with the team is leverage. I just wanted to see your helmet and IF it is photomatched to every game you claim it is, so I could express my concerns with the team.

Your exclusive contract with the team is leverage, you say. May I please request that you post legal documentation as to your “exclusive” contract? You clearly would like to know whether the Bengals may have breached the exclusivity of a contract you claim to be exclusive. I’m particularly curious as to whether you even have an exclusive contract. I've recently heard words like "photomatching" used loosely by your firm, even associated with dates. How loosely are you using the word "exclusive"? If they did, did the Bengals have the right to sell a game used helmet to an entity other than your company?



People who spend thousands of dollars on Bengals season tickets annually, tickets that they can’t even give away might think they have a relationship with the team, much like you have a relationship with the team. Please, will you post your so called exclusive contract in full?


Respectfully Yours
Dan

[Dewey2007]

Mods, just my 2 cents but I would suggest closing this thread before it drags on and on like some threads are wont to do on this site. Obviously the OP is not willing to post photos of the helmet in question at this time to put this issue to bed and until he does this thread is going to turn into something more silly then it already has IMO. Already there has been 32 posts and not thread of evidence from the OP to support his claims.

[dplettn]

At that point I got the feeling there was a agenda on your end. Well, come to find out there was. I asked you if you have animosity of our company because we have a deal with the Bengals? Your response “yes there is some animosity. Because you have cornered the market for Bengals equipment and I cannot afford to buy at your prices. And I cannot get stuff as easy from my source” and you went on to say that I have never done anything to become your “friend”. So I asked you what we have that you wanted, your response “I want a Carson Palmer game worn jersey” you then stated “I can’t afford it at your prices” so I asked you to make a fair offer for the jersey - your response floored me “I will give you $350 for the Carson Palmer jersey” - enough said, I do not have to elaborate.

Are you really going to make statements like that as if they were factual? You have quoted things that I’m quite confident did not come out of my mouth. Perhaps that doesn't matter any more than claims that 'just salesmen' make about photo-matches



You’ve taken things such as my expressing that I have no allegiance to you, that I owe nothing to you by virtue of any business relationship with you and changed them while applying quotes. You’ve put my expressions into alternate words of your chosing which present a tone that was not never present.



Did I express disappointment that economically ordinary folks like myself are adversely affected by your cornering the market? Yes.


But factually, I complimented your ingenuity of extracting the maximum price in so cornering the market.


I’ve also expressed numerous times to you and your firm that I’d have an interest in a Palmer jersey if you ever went to liquidate it. I had been hesitant to make any offer. I did eventually say I'd spend $300 or something in that neck of the woods because after I expressed why I hadn't made any offer at all, one of your salesmen suggested that for Bengal merchandise 10% of your stickers prices might even come to be doable. I'm not going to quote them because I don't recall their exact words. But, that was the general content as I understood it. Quoting somebody absent their precise words is wrong.



The context of our conversation of a Palmer jersey was that they have been stagnant in your inventory and Palmer may not even be a Bengal next year. I’m not going to quote you but your response as I understood it was that USC guys would spend $2500 on Palmer Jerseys. Listen, you are in business, and you have every right in the world to be ALL about the money, to foster a culture of aggressive selling tactics, and having whatever authentication standards you see fit. But, let’s not pretend I owe you anything, because I don’t.


By the way, there can't be grass stains on jerseys worn over turf. But those sort of details present in the marketing of your Palmer jerseys may not matter much to you. As you expressed to me generally (again no quotes) you have tons of stuff and you can't inundate yourself with too many details.


Personally, I just don't think you've marketed your company as a company that is flex with details, definitions, and precision. But, that is just my opinion.

[Sportsislife]

Agree with dewey. This thread serves no useful purpose to the forum or it's members as it doesn't inform anybody of any substantial material as far as learning something, asking a question or warning the community of fraudulent material. This appears to be a case of an individual with a personal issue with a company. Also, to member who started this thread, to refuse to show photos or give any type of non vague info about the item in a thread you started but expect a private company to post their contracts is completely assinine.

[dplettn]

Listen, I asked for your help to PROVE your helmet to be the ONLY helmet worn, but you declined because you have “animosity” and “you don’t want to give me leverage”. So you said you will let the collecting community make the decision.

You did suggest I needed to prove your helmet was never worn; you were quite demanding of it. You asked me many times about whether I had animosity. I kept saying I respected your ingenuity and eventually I did acknowledge that personally I'd be better off if the merchandise was instead (still) going into the pro shop, where I could afford it.

You are right about one thing, I made clear I had no interest of giving you leverage with the team. What does that matter if you already have leverage via your "exclusive" contract? And, are you going to post that?

Hey, if you do want to talk about things from our conversation which were interesting, please elaborate on your commentary about "Bengals Securities" and how after seeing what I had you may need to involve them. Was that your effort to intimidate me, or is there even any such thing?

[dplettn]

I've already offered photos to Chris for his responsible awareness and confidence as moderator and if Chris demands it for the greater good of the hobby, I'll post pictures publicly for all the forum (and technically the world) to see. I just don't think my photos are relevant to the misstatements and marketing practices. What do GUU members think of the use in the helmet at JO, as pictured? Does my helmet have any relevance to that?

I personally believe that factual statements of business practices as they exist are relevant, every bit as relevant as to whether I want or don't want to share photographs of anything in my personal, private collection publicly.

I'm also aware that JO Sports has its fans. And, I'm sure many of them have bought good items. I've made no statement that JO sells stuff that isn't good. But, at the particular price points how loosely should things be marketed in various ways? I'm curious the opinions of others.

[mad87man]

Here is my 2 cents. Turf can cause grass stains. Not as many or harsh ones but they sure can. It is fake grass with dyes in it. If you slide or w/e i see no reason why you wouldn't/couldn't get them

As far as your helmet. I seem to start thinking your BSing. I mean you claim you don't wanna or can't post pictures for whatever reason. Why? I don't know. I know if i ever had a Chad helmet i would plaster those pictures all over.

[sox83cubs84]

I agree with 2 previous posters. This thread should be closed until either the aggrieved collector posts pictures of his item, or when JO Sports shares its findings with the Forum based on the Monday meeting scheduled with Bengals front office personnel.

Dave Miedema

[dcgreg25]

At this point both JO and dplettn have made their positions clear on the topic. I am going to go ahead and lock the thread but would be happy to allow JO Sports or dplettn to post if either has more relevant information to share with the forum.

It is a site policy on the Auction Items thread to contact buyers with questions or issues before calling out items publicly on the thread. Perhaps if the dplettn was aware that Johnson wore multiple helmets per season this situation could have been avoided. JO Sports is a retail outlet and as such they market their products aggressively. While they may not have provided a photomatch on the item, it does not mean the helmet was not potentially used by Johnson. If either party has more facts to add, please do not hesitate to email me or one of the other moderators.

[dcgreg25]

JO Sports contacted me and asked me to post a photomatch of their helmet from 9/26/10 vs. Carolina. Below are the pics provided:

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm233/gregguy25/CJPhotomatch1.jpg

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm233/gregguy25/CJPhotomatch2.jpg

[dcgreg25]

dplettn contacted me to ask to post a response on the Johnson helmet issue. The facts have been presented and discussed at length so the thread will not be reopened. Below are dplettn's comments as they were emailed to me.

"On March 19th, a JO Post on a surviving thread {which lacks the timeline and marketing facts JO hasn't disputed} claimed the indention in the decal above the GAL in "Bengals" perfect match. We (JO) will post better matches when the helmet is back in our hands.

The surviving (non-closed) thread has a title which deflects from the core focus of my original thread: false and high-pressure marketing practices.

As of April 19th, I've seen no further posting by JO on the subject. Also, the original thread (with the time-line) remained closed, making it impossible for parties that have seen both helmets to comment in that context. The JO helmet has appeared (newly added to their other Bengals helmets) on JO's website since March 19th.

The "indentation" image posted by the moderator on behalf of JO, and then later posted by JO on a new "live" thread which removes the marketing fact based time-line (JO was given opportunity to dispute any facts) from discussion is actually not a photo match. It is a style match. The "indentation" is a design feature of an adhesive element that was applied over both the JO's helmet's and my own at the same location at the white portion manufactured at the rear of the helmet by Schutt.

Whether the helmet was or wasn't used at any point of any game is not the central issue in my opinion. In my opinion, the central issue is a pattern of false statements and misrepresentations which first make a mockery the hobby, and more recently made a mockery of our forum. I hope now that these facts are publicly available, they will prove context. Context to the assertions of JO about its "photo match" and to the attacks on myself personally for not sharing any photos of my helmet (which I never found relevant to the core focus of the thread).

I will add that the source of my helmet which I've not revealed publicly, was said by Jarrod Oldridge to have told him more recently of the sale made to me. This appears to have trespassed on the confidentiality of my purchase.

I happen to own seat licenses in Paul Brown Stadium. I have inquired with the counterparty to my seat licenses whether my seat licenses might be revoked should I publish about that that counterparty's various dealings and the business practices inherent. That counter-party has been non-responsive to my specific question instead leaving me to wonder what it would hold the agreement's language to mean."

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm233/gregguy25/DSC_0001.jpg