The dude ain't Duerson

[sox83cubs84]

Up on eBay right now is this Phoenix Cardinals home gamer, NNON, attributed to Dave Duerson.




While I don't doubt it to be a Cardinals gamer, it is not one worn by the late 1985 Bears star for three reasons:

1) There is no NFL neck logo (added in 1991)

2) Sand-Knit last supplied NFL teams (a few) in 1990 (nothing in 1991).

3) Duerson's first season with the Cardinals? Yep...1991.

Don't pay a Duerson price for something that isn't a Duerson wearable. Not knocking the seller...I think it's an honest mistake, but another example of doing (or not doing) your homework.

Dave Miedema

[sox83cubs84]

Re: The dude ain't Duerson

Opening text should read "NNOB".

Dave M.

[carct]

Re: The dude ain't Duerson

Up on eBay right now is this Phoenix Cardinals home gamer, NNON, attributed to Dave Duerson.




While I don't doubt it to be a Cardinals gamer, it is not one worn by the late 1985 Bears star for three reasons:

1) There is no NFL neck logo (added in 1991)

2) Sand-Knit last supplied NFL teams (a few) in 1990 (nothing in 1991).

3) Duerson's first season with the Cardinals? Yep...1991.

Don't pay a Duerson price for something that isn't a Duerson wearable. Not knocking the seller...I think it's an honest mistake, but another example of doing (or not doing) your homework.

Dave Miedema

Dave,
While I have no opinion on the authenticity of the Duerson Cardinals jersey, I do have a few questions/comments.

1) If Sand-Knit last supplied jerseys in 1990 why is it not possible one was worn in the 1991 season? I realize it is a different team but the following pictures clearly show Frank Winters wearing a different style jersey. Winter's first year was with the Pack was in 1992. The Packers switched to Starter in 1992. Winter's jersey is lacking the Starter logo on the sleeve and the font on the TV numbers is different. It appears he may be wearing a MacGregor jersey from 1991 or earlier. I have seen this with other Packers of that era.

2) I've included a photo of Brian Noble that is dated Oct 1992. It appears that there no NFL shield and he may also be wearing a MacGregor jersey. The player's jersey on his right looks like it is a different color green and there may be a Starter logo on the sleeve.

[trsent]

Re: The dude ain't Duerson

Dave, what did the seller say when you told them of your concerns?

I wonder if they have a story to go with how they came up with their findings.

[gwh11]

Re: The dude ain't Duerson

FYI: The Winters & Noble jerseys referenced by Carct are Russell Athletic jerseys.
-Guy

[carct]

Re: The dude ain't Duerson

FYI: The Winters & Noble jerseys referenced by Carct are Russell Athletic jerseys.
-Guy

Thanks Guy. What years were the Russell used and how can you identify them from the pics? I referenced them as possibly being MacGregor from the Packers Uniform Database that Chance Michaels has. The way I read it, he has MacGregor as the manufacturer for 1991. I also referenced a Darrell Thompson jersey from a MEARS auction earlier this year. I realize the "0" on the tag probably means it was used in 1990 but it has the NFL shield on the collar and may have been used later as MEARS implies.

http://www.mearsonlineauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=5969

Either way, what I was trying to say is that just because a team "used Starter that year" or whatever manufacturer, nothing is absolute.

[gwh11]

Re: The dude ain't Duerson

Thanks Guy. What years were the Russell used and how can you identify them from the pics? I referenced them as possibly being MacGregor from the Packers Uniform Database that Chance Michaels has. The way I read it, he has MacGregor as the manufacturer for 1991. I also referenced a Darrell Thompson jersey from a MEARS auction earlier this year. I realize the "0" on the tag probably means it was used in 1990 but it has the NFL shield on the collar and may have been used later as MEARS implies.

http://www.mearsonlineauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=5969

Either way, what I was trying to say is that just because a team "used Starter that year" or whatever manufacturer, nothing is absolute.

You'll find some Russell Packers jerseys from around 1991-2. I could tell because of the number fonts used. Other clues include the spacing of the numbers and the cut of the neckline (on Noble's jersey).

So, you're right about the "nothing is absolute" part; the Packers employed MacGregor Sand-Knit, Starter and Russell jerseys in 1992, although it was predominantly Starter, especially by the end of the season.
-Guy

[sox83cubs84]

Re: The dude ain't Duerson

Regarding some of the points brought up earlier:

There are a few post-1990 NFL gamers without neck logos, but those I have seen have all been Throwback styles, which this jersey is not.

Recycled jerseys from pre-1991 do occasionally appear in 1991 and later, but I'd expect more concrete reasons that this jersey was a Duerson when the NOB is removed (common with Cardinals jerseys of the era).

The whole point of my questioning it is that these above factors were present and the jersey was being attributed to Duerson without a NOB or any other solid supporting evidence. IMHO, classifying this as a Duerson gamer was wishful thinking, not intended deception...over the years, collectors have been known to assign an item with no definitive player attributio to a player with decent name recognition...a guess with little research done.

Bottom line: How I view a jersey is based upon whether or not I'd put the description in writing if asked to write a LOO on the piece. I could write a LOO on this as a late 1980s Cardinals home gamer, but, without a NOB present orother solid documentation, I could not attribute it to Duerson in that LOO.

Dave Miedema

[carct]

Re: The dude ain't Duerson

Regarding some of the points brought up earlier:

There are a few post-1990 NFL gamers without neck logos, but those I have seen have all been Throwback styles, which this jersey is not.

Recycled jerseys from pre-1991 do occasionally appear in 1991 and later, but I'd expect more concrete reasons that this jersey was a Duerson when the NOB is removed (common with Cardinals jerseys of the era).

The whole point of my questioning it is that these above factors were present and the jersey was being attributed to Duerson without a NOB or any other solid supporting evidence. IMHO, classifying this as a Duerson gamer was wishful thinking, not intended deception...over the years, collectors have been known to assign an item with no definitive player attributio to a player with decent name recognition...a guess with little research done.

Bottom line: How I view a jersey is based upon whether or not I'd put the description in writing if asked to write a LOO on the piece. I could write a LOO on this as a late 1980s Cardinals home gamer, but, without a NOB present orother solid documentation, I could not attribute it to Duerson in that LOO.

Dave Miedema

I have no interest in the Duerson jersey buying or selling. I was just pointing out that it was possible. I provided a picture of Brian Noble from 1992 without the NFL shield. Your post came across not as much as questioning but as a matter of fact. I certainly wouldn't blame anyone for not writing a LOO on it.

[sox83cubs84]

Re: The dude ain't Duerson

I have no interest in the Duerson jersey buying or selling. I was just pointing out that it was possible. I provided a picture of Brian Noble from 1992 without the NFL shield. Your post came across not as much as questioning but as a matter of fact. I certainly wouldn't blame anyone for not writing a LOO on it.

I see where you're coming from. I agree, "never say never", but, as I said, my criteria for calling these out is whether or not I'd stand by the description if it were mine and I was asked for an LOA/LOO. If i did come on too strongly in my original statements, it was based on those crieria.

Dave Miedema