Koufax cap in Grey Flannel auction

[rick]

Anyone have any thoughts on this Koufax Dodgers cap? Looks nice, but I don't know when KM started putting the registered Trademark symbol "R" on their label and the KM Pro stamp. I have seen it done in the 70's, but can't find any pictures of this in the mid-60's, and since Koufax ended his career in 1966 I want to make sure this isn't a coach's cap.

Thanks,
Rick

http://catalog.greyflannelauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=25725&searchby=3&searchvalue=dodgers&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=100&category=1&seo=Circa-1965-1966-Sandy-Koufax-LA-Dodgers-Game-Used-Cap

[KAPKOLLEKTOR]

I would steer clear of that cap. First off, does anyone else find it just a little coincidental that practically every cap (and helmet) in their current auction was worn by a hall of famer???? (or at the very least a star player). Anyone knows that all it takes to turn an unnumbered game worn cap (ie a supposedly game worn cap that doesn’t already have a uniform number written on the underside of the visor) into one worn by a hall of famer is a ballpoint pen or black magic marker (or a sharpie on its last legs); any eight year-old can do this.

Regarding this specific cap, there is no way Koufax wore this cap as a player. First of all, he retired after the '66 season and if the dodgers were wearing KM PRO caps in '66, this cap would have a mcauliffe tag (NOT a KM PRO tag as this one does) and the only KM PRO designation in the cap would be in the form of a KM PRO stamp on the leather sweatband. I am pretty certain that the KM PRO tag that’s in this cap postdates the earlier mcauliffe tag. Case in point: below is the link to the dodgers cap I won in the mears auction that ended last week; according to mears, this cap is from 1968-69 and has the mcauliffe tag (and the KM PRO stamp on the sweatband); since the mcauliffe tag predates the KM PRO tag (to the best of my knowledge), that would mean the “Koufax” cap would be from post-1969 which means Koufax couldn’t have worn it in 65 or 66. I also believe mears is incorrect in dating the dodgers cap 1969 (because I think the last year for the mcauliffe tag that’s in it was 1968; i could, however, be wrong). So in summation, i believe the "koufax" cap is from the late 60’s to early 70’s (and it could even be from the mid-late 70’s too as I have a 1976 red sox yearbook that has a half-page ad for KM PRO caps and the red sox cap they show in the ad has the same exact KM PRO tag that the “koufax” cap does), so Koufax couldn’tve worn it as a player; according to Wikipedia, the dodgers hired him to be their minor league pitching coach in 1979, so even if this cap was his as their pitching coach in the late 70’s that’s a little different than a cap that he purportedly wore in his last season as a player!! I am also amazed (or maybe i'm not) that as i write this, its at over 3K with just one day to go: a sucker is born every minute, as they say. I guess seeing just a number written on the visor is enough to convince some people.

here's the link to the dodgers cap i won in the mears auction:


https://www.mearsonlineauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=30816 (https://www.mearsonlineauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=30816)

Getting back to the rest of the supposedly hall of famer game-worn caps in the auction, while they certainly could’ve been worn by said players, they also certainly couldn't have been worn by them either: my response: PROVE IT!!!! as I already stated, turning a generic cap into one worn by mays, aaron or nolan ryan requires only one thing: a writing instrument (preferably one that doesnt write too well for that vintage look) (and some dirt too if you’re feeling especially creative). As far as I’m concerned, unless I was there to see that player come off the field after playing in a game, remove his cap from his head and hand it to a person, how do I know if it was really worn by that player???? (the answer: I don’t!!). A letter from someone whose mother was a friend of a friend of someone who knew someone who knew willie mays just doesn’t cut it. (and to call that “outstanding provenance” is laughable at best).

i'll conclude with this: I have a vintage Wilson circa 1971 pro model dodgers cap that doesn’t have a number written on the brim; maybe I’ll take a vintage black marker and write a “6” on the visor and say its steve garvey’s game worn cap from his rookie season (ie whats to stop me from doing that???) (or I suppose I could just leave it alone and consign it to grey flannel as-is and they would probably do it themselves).

the best advice i could give anyone is to do your homework; just because an auction house says its a hall of famer game-worn cap doesnt mean it is. more research is needed, and simply saying "photomatch" is as good as nothing in many cases: i would be very hesitant to spend big money on something that couldve just as easily been worn by joe schmo as sandy koufax unless the provenance was crystal-clear.

[aeneas01]

As far as I’m concerned, unless I was there to see that player come off the field after playing in a game, remove his cap from his head and hand it to a person, how do I know if it was really worn by that player???? (the answer: I don’t!!). A letter from someone whose mother was a friend of a friend of someone who knew someone who knew willie mays just doesn’t cut it.
yet you purchased the dodgers cap from mears with a letter attesting to its authenticity? anyway, i agree with much of what you said - seems like baseball caps would be pretty easy to doctor (which is too bad because they're such awesome game used collectibles). take the cap you recently purchased from mears, isn't it possible that it never even made it to the dodgers' clubhouse, that it may have been acquired directly from mcauliffe, perhaps even old inventory (that someone added a number to)? according to a collector at the ballcap blog (very cool site), even km had boxes of miscellaneous mlb caps that one could sift through...

"KM stopped making MLB caps but the company was still around on Kingston St. in Boston until 1991 or so. In 1983 they still had boxes of odd size MLB caps that you could sift through."

http://ballcapblog.blogspot.com/2010/09/company-profile-km-pro-company.html

[ferrisfain41]

Rick,

Dick Dobbins is dead! My experience with him is that he would NEVER misrepresent. he was thorough and knew his stuff. I f he said Koufax wore it, he did-- in the capacity of a coach? he still wore it.
I'd trust Dick.

Ferris

[sox83cubs84]

Rick,

Dick Dobbins is dead! My experience with him is that he would NEVER misrepresent. he was thorough and knew his stuff. I f he said Koufax wore it, he did-- in the capacity of a coach? he still wore it.
I'd trust Dick.

Ferris

+1

Dave Miedema

[trsent]

I'd trust Dick.

+2