1999 Griffey Alternate Jersey in Grey Flannel Auction

[CPuente57]

http://catalog.greyflannelauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=25664

Would appreciates thoughts/opinions on this, Thanks!

[Baseball83]

It is a great jersey. All original. Correct tagging and great use.

[CPuente57]

bump

[Baseball83]

Unclear what you mean

[trsent]

I don't know what the original questioner was hoping for, but "bump" is a way to move a thread to the top asking for more answers. The first reply stated the jersey appears correct, I'm not sure what other opinions the questioner was hoping for.

If everything is correct, why would someone suddenly chime in that there are issues with the jersey?

[CPuente57]

Just looking for a couple more opinions, not that I don't trust the replier, but just seeing if anyone else wanted to chime in, that's all. Thanks!

[djnos7]

most likely issued...

[Baseball83]

On what grounds can you say "most likely issued"?

[kprst6]

This is one of those auction that I always say "Just because it looks old, doesn't mean it was game used".

Who knows how many different owners this jersey has had. It looks old and from the details are of the correct time period but it doesn't look used.

You could take any game issued jersey today, leave it in a room that gets good sunlight, never dust it, and in 11 years, it would look like this jersey.

[trsent]

This is one of those auction that I always say "Just because it looks old, doesn't mean it was game used".

Who knows how many different owners this jersey has had. It looks old and from the details are of the correct time period but it doesn't look used.

You could take any game issued jersey today, leave it in a room that gets good sunlight, never dust it, and in 11 years, it would look like this jersey.

So that's the trick! Leave your jersey in your sunroom for eleven years and it will look game used when you take it out of the oven.

I'm not sure how much wear you expect to see on a alternate jersey. It could have been worn one game for all anyone knows.

[justinwc80]

This has become a problem on the forum, people say things are bad but don't give any real reasons, we can all trash items without actually giving actual observations. If you think something is bad explain why!

[sox83cubs84]

As far as use goes, there may not be much...I scanned 1999 Mariners game photos on Getty, and, while they don't show every game, the first photos in which I saw the blue Russell alternates being worn were from July 15 and July 17, which was the opening series at Safeco Field. Before that (and sporadically after that) the blue alternates they wore were the Majestic BP-style jerseys.

Can any Seattle collectors and/or Mariners fans confirm or refute my findings?

Dave Miedema

[griffeyfan]

At first glance it looks good and the size is correct. What gives me pause is the name on the back is not snug near the silver piping. Game used examples of this jersey from 1999 that I've seen show the name very close to the silver piping. GettyImages from July 15 and September 5 confirm this placement.

Can anyone find an image with the name further down as the one in the auction?

[sox83cubs84]

At first glance it looks good and the size is correct. What gives me pause is the name on the back is not snug near the silver piping. Game used examples of this jersey from 1999 that I've seen show the name very close to the silver piping. GettyImages from July 15 and September 5 confirm this placement.

Can anyone find an image with the name further down as the one in the auction?

Come to think of it, I recall that, as well...and it seemed to apply to all the Mariners Russell alternates, not just The Kid.

Dave Miedema

[djnos7]

Thanks for giving me a chance to respond! I say most likely issued, due to the fact that from my observation the numbers and letters look to have no puckering whatsoever, also no signs of fraying seem to exists on the threads anywhere on the jersey.

[justinwc80]

Few pics to use:

Majestic BP type jerseys say Mariners where the Russell alternate says Seattle on the front.

[Baseball83]

On the above pictures, I see several different emblem applications. The second picture most closely resembles the Greyflannel jersey in the front. There may be similar variations on the back of the jersey as well. The use is appropriate for a jersey that may have been used once or twice. This was common practice some athletes.

[djnos7]

I have done countless hrs of research on this jersey, from this year, and cannot find any pics with the raised piping above NOB, i hope our Griffey experts or anyone who can locate more pics of this style from this year can prove otherwise, that this does exist... I was also told that even though the piping may not be totally an issue, the major concern is the fact that the jersey's JR wore in this time period were all given to coast to coast and or millcreek, where griff singed his name in between the 24. It is possible that this somehow leaked out of the clubhouse without his knowledge, but from what im told, is that most likely is not probable... I hope we can get some more answers on this piece, with actual fact instead of speculation!:)

[Baseball83]

My concern is that you have identified the Mill Creek relationship as fact and then said some might have slipped through. You then ask for "facts". Here are some facts:

1. I have personally inspected this jersey.
2. There is use that is appropriate in this jersey
3. The jersey is all original and unaltered
4. The provenance is an impeccable source
5. There are strong similarities to the front of this
jersey comparing to pictures posted in this string
6. No one has shown photo ID confirming the back of
the jersey to this point
7. The seller of this jersey has risk associated with
selling this jersey
8. The buyer assumes risk
9. People have offered opinions, but few are at risk
10. Negative comments can sway the outcome of this
auction in a negative way
11. Negative comments should be substantiated
before being posted
12. Negative comments have not been substaintiated

[djnos7]

Okay, thanks for your response, im just trying to get to the bottom of this piece, and i am in know way trying to disrupt the sale or potential of this jersey. But i did however speak to a Gf representative the other day, who told me if i have any doubts that i should not bid, which i appreciate. And he also told me that once i buy it, its mine and that's that, so does this mean, if down the line the an issue came up with the jersey a refund/return would not be issued? What is the policy on this?

[Baseball83]

We are saying the same thing. Comments people make must be based in fact. The evidence presented hasn't shown this jersey to be incorrect. I agree with doing your homework and that you should feel comfortable with the jersey. But some have cast a shadow of doubt without clear evidence. The seller loses because they are out money. A potential buyer loses because they are out a great item. Good luck in your research and bidding

[Lokee]

We are saying the same thing. Comments people make must be based in fact. The evidence presented hasn't shown this jersey to be incorrect. I agree with doing your homework and that you should feel comfortable with the jersey. But some have cast a shadow of doubt without clear evidence. The seller loses because they are out money. A potential buyer loses because they are out a great item. Good luck in your research and bidding

I usually stay out of this sorta thing BUT the evidence does not point to it be 100% legit either. Some good points have been brought up and I don't see an issue with another person asking others for opinions and voicing his concerns.

[Lokee]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slideshows/156/slideshow_15600/display_image.jpg?x=661465

[Baseball83]

To the contrary, the evidence does not support it not being legit. You show a picture but offer no explanation. My opinion is that it is good. I do not in any way take away someone's right to question a piece. But the seller of a legitimate piece should not be penalized either. You prove my point.

[solarlottry]

I have no idea if the shirt is good or not and agree 100% that if someone syas something is "bad" then please give reasons. From the images it does appear that the nameplate is a bit low on the GF shirt compared to the others though.

One question i have is: Is baseball83 the consignor? If so it would explain his stance on this shirt-that the shirt is good. If not then could he explain why he thinks it is good? Is it based just on the tags?

I personally think that GF over the last 10 years has gotten more and more junk. They had a Joe Montana shirt in this auction that had a size 46 in the description and a size 42 in the image of the tags. To their credit once i pointed this out they took it down but had i not it would have been sold as it already was bid up to almost 2K. Missing things as simple as size is not a good indicator of thorough research to me.

I think the bottom line with ALL auctions is being comfortable with what you buy and if something does not feel right stay away.

Always buying 49ers shirts and paying up to 500$ finders fee for the right shirt.
Paul
garciajones@yahoo.com

[Baseball83]

Unfortunately this discussion is not about Joe Montana, Grey Flannel or me. The discussion is about the Griffey jersey. Stating in a public forum that something is incorrect without offering resonable evidence to the contrary is not wise. I have stated that I directly have seen and inspected this jersey. It is all original with correct tagging. Look at some of the pictures presented, there are many variations of legitimate jerseys. Making someone feel uncomfortable about a legitimate uniform makes as much sense as making someone feel comfortable about an illegitimate uniform. I encourage everyone to do their homework.

[solarlottry]

I disagree with baseball 83 in the fact that all of this stuff matters. If GF can put up for auction a Montana that is no good, then they can do the same for a Griffey. I am in no way saying that it is good or no good as i have no experience with his shirts.

I also think it is important as to who is commenting. If you are the consignor then you have a vested interest in selling the items and you are gonna say they are good. There are many, many shirts out there with "correct tagging" that are complete junk. Just look at the Lott shirt GF has up. It has the "correct tagging" but does not have the sleeve modifications that Lott used with shirts of that era. I am not saying that the Lott is junk but commenting that it does not resemble the authentic ones i have seen in a # of 49er collections (including my own)

I agree with baseball83 that we should all do our homework but saying something came from an "impeccable source" does nothing for me unless i know the source. With a rare shirt like a Griffey alt., that was worn for only a few games, the spacing of the nameplate is a big deal to me. Obviously one would have to go thru every inning of every game they wore these shirts to prove that it was not worn based on the nameplate variation. Just a quick look at getty shows that the nameplates are clearly closer to the piping in my opinion.

Again it is a free country and we can do whatever we wish with our money but just because a shirt has "correct tagging" does not mean it is genuine. I also agree that if one is too say something is not good then they need to back it up with facts but the opposite is true too. If i post a 49er shirt i will post the reasons it is genuine (presence of team letter, equipment manager tape or mark, photo-match, good evidence of game use or the fact that it came from a known 49er collection). No one has called out anything i have posted yet and thats because i buy only what i know is real based on evidence not just "correct tags".

My intention is not to be a jerk to baseball83 but his list sounds like a Lou Lampson letter. The buyer should not have to assume risk as one would hope that items auctioned would be authentic. To say the buyer has to take the risk that the shirt is real is fairly ridiculous. The only risk a seller takes is that he does not get the $$$ he wants for the shirt. Setting a reserve eliminates that risk.

I do agree that saying something is not good without proof potentially hurts the sale of an item and should be a no-no. The bottom line is that doing ones homework usually works and it appears that the members posting the getty images have done that.

[djnos7]

All valid points, does anyone on here have a 99' mariners jersey in this style that is not typical of the images found on getty or any other site? I think if this one issue could be put to rest, everything else as far as the jersey goes seems fine to me! But like i said before i am no expert, just trying to do my homework and ask people for there opinions... So BB83 do you believe that the piping and nob gap is an issue? I spoke to an expert from GF and they didnt even consider it an issue when i asked!

[Baseball83]

The NOB and piping is a normal variant of emblem application that I mentioned earlier. Look at some of the differences in the "Seattle" as applied on the front in the pctures provided. Again Grey Flannel and Montanna are not the issue. I am not talking about Lou Lampson either. And yes a buyer assumes risk with every purchase. If you do not feel comfortable then do not buy it. But there has been no proof that this is not a good jersey. Far too many people have opinions but no substance. Their opinions should be weighed accordingly. Good luck bidding.

[djnos7]

http://img2-lelands.clicktech.net/Zip/Image?path=/public/auctionimages/0/29/29523/39681c.jpg (http://img2-lelands.clicktech.net/Zip/Image?path=/public/auctionimages/0/29/29523/39681c.jpg) (http://img2-lelands.clicktech.net/Zip/Image?path=/public/auctionimages/0/29/29523/39681c.jpg)

[djnos7]

So here is another one from 99' that was up for auction a while back, with the same makers that are in question! My concern is that they only used these jersey's in a few games in 99' and to have two of them show up for auction, and neither one match the Getty images or any other pictures found is puzzling to me... The spacing between the letters on the NOB for this jersey doesn't seem correct either? Hope this helps.

[djnos7]

Also the use on the numbers doesn't seem right for a guy who was changing his jersey quite frequently, this looks like many washing occurred???

[djnos7]

sorry for the typo markers not makers...

[djnos7]

Does anyone know the exact amount of times these jersey's were worn in 99'?

[djnos7]

Solarlottry, i know BB83 said people shouldnt go around saying something isnt right without actual hard proof, which i agree with, but shouldnt the same be said for GF or any other auction house, in the instance of a high dollar amount montana that they listed and then pulled because of your knowledge in those shirts! I thought they were supposed to be the experts, how can a regular guy of the streets start correcting the errors of true professionals? I mean if they can get something as simple as a tag size wrong, what else could be out there that is not accurate? I think that if people want to comment or question an item that they are willing to shell out big money for, and later on down the line find out to be that there item isn't really what it was supposed to be, and are left with expensive junk, i would think that the buyer has incurred all the risk, and potentially has everything to lose! I'm just saying... Apparently someone didn't do there homework on the Montana, and luckily for some perspective buyer, you just saved them a lot of money and headache, because if not for you that jersey would have stayed up and sold, i applaud you!

[djnos7]

Sorry, i forgot to add that the last pic i posted of the griff gamer was from a leland auction back in 06'.

[Mulligans]

I think that many of the Auction Houses and the Consignors will pull an item if there are questions raised about the item.

I would not always interpret the removing of an item to be that the Auction House has determined it to be fake.

If there is any doubt whatsoever or too many questions being raised on an item the prudent thing is remove the item and not risk a Public Relations mess.

I personally had several items removed from this Grey Flannel Auction. Each item was purchased directly from the team or the NFL and had the appropriate paperwork. The items were removed because there were specific questions raised on them. One of the Jerseys could not have been what the team said it was......the other items IMO are perfect, but we decided to remove them just the same.....Most of the Auction houses take this stuff very seriously.....and that is definitely the case with Grey Flannel.

[djnos7]

All i would like to know, is who the impeccable source for this is and where it came from, i don't think that's a lot to ask from a consumers standpoint?

[MarinersFan34]

In the pictures below is what I can help with. My main collecting focus is the Seattle Mariners, I've collected their cards and photos since the mid 80's and collected M's memorabilia since 2001. I am by NO means an expert on them, as imo there is always something new to learn.

I am not sure why anyone whould just accept something that came from an "impeccable source". If that source is so rock solid, then name them, their rep should speak for itself with nothing more said. However no matter WHO the item comes from, research should STILL be done. We could all go on forever on this part of the topic but I digress, on to the photos.

Here are a variety of scans from Mariners programs and cards from 1999 and 2000.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Spiezio23/Mariners/scan0001.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Spiezio23/Mariners/scan0002.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Spiezio23/Mariners/scan0003.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Spiezio23/Mariners/scan0004.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Spiezio23/Mariners/scan0005.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Spiezio23/Mariners/scan0006.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Spiezio23/Mariners/scan0007.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Spiezio23/Mariners/scan0008.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Spiezio23/Mariners/scan0009.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Spiezio23/Mariners/scan0010.jpg


Now, below are 3 Seattle Mariners 1999 jerseys that I personally own and I’ve included the tagging as well as the source of the item.

Edgar Martinez – COA from Mill Creek Sports
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Spiezio23/Mariners/Mariners99001.jpg

The tagging on the Edgar
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Spiezio23/Mariners/Mariners99005.jpg

Jose Paniagua – Sports Warehouse
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Spiezio23/Mariners/Mariners99003.jpg

The tagging on the Jose
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Spiezio23/Mariners/Mariners99006.jpg

Sam Mejias – I bought direct from the Seattle Mariners
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Spiezio23/Mariners/Mariners99004.jpg

The tagging on the Sammy
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Spiezio23/Mariners/Mariners99007.jpg

Looking at the photos above the closest I can see to a slightly lower nameplate is on the Denny Stark card. However the other difference I see is the actual size of the nameplate, the one on the Griffey in GF seems to be larger than on the others, leaving more fabric around the letters. A closer look makes the last Griffey card look similar but I still don’t believe the spacing is the same on that card as it is on the GF jersey.

I am not an authenticator of course nor would I accept money to do so but the lower nameplate and larger nameplate size are anomalies that I can’t look past and as such I wouldn’t bid. That is just my opinion only and my choice to not bid accordingly as I would prefer a jersey where every aspect matches up.

At this time I do not have a list of the games they were worn in but it is something I’m trying to figure out.

[Lokee]

Jeremy,

Thanks for taking the time to take pics and help us out.

[jppopma]

Why is there any argument about this jersey? Baseball83 inspected it in person and says it's legit!!!!! Who are we to question that?

Maybe he will offer a LOA to whoever the auction winner is and put everyone's fears to rest....

[djnos7]

Doesnt the jersey already come with a GF LOA? I don't know who BB83 is, so just by him saying he inspected it doesn't do anything for me! I could tell you i inspected something as well, are you going to take my word for it?

[earlywynnfan]

Doesnt the jersey already come with a GF LOA? I don't know who BB83 is, so just by him saying he inspected it doesn't do anything for me! I could tell you i inspected something as well, are you going to take my word for it?

Uh, I think that was sarcasm jppopma was using there.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

[Baseball83]

Can anyone explain this spacing to me?http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Spiezio23/Mariners/scan0010.jpg

[Baseball83]

Anyone?

[sox83cubs84]

Looks like you found a positive-leaning photo. Good work.

Dave Miedema

[R. C. Walker]

Sure did get quiet . . .

[solarlottry]

Rather than just saying what Baseball83 initially stated (he inspected the shirt, it is good, impeccable source etc) why not just go ahead and post the image immediately? It would have avoided much of this back and forth conjecture.

I think that with these items it goes both ways-if someone wants to say something is bad go ahead but back it up. Additionally if someone wants to give reassurance and say an item is good-go ahead and state why. Saying you have inspected the shirt, seen it or whatever is still not a good reason to state that it is good or bad. An image like the one posted by Baseball83 is just what this thread needed to put the spacing issue to rest and that seemed to be the biggest concern.

I think if everyone works together on these items then almost every item can be thoroughly evaluated and a general consensus can be obtained. It seems weird though that this forum has to do this. Isnt it GF's responsibility to evaluate and only auction off items that are authentic. If GF had posted the card with the similar spacing i have a feeling that this thread may have been much shorter!

Always buying 49ers shirts and paying a finders fee!
Paul
garciajones@yahoo.com

[Baseball83]

Why would you assume that I had this in my possession prior to the post?

[djnos7]

I tip my hat to you bb83, and it was a nice find! As i originally stated that the piping wasnt my biggest concern, but rather that he signed most if not all of his jersey's in between the 24 in that time period, and it is an oddity that one or two seem to find there way back up for auction. But like i said, anything is possible. Ive spoke to Millcreek and others that were close to these shirts in that time period, and they also agree that its out of the norm for him to have not signed it!

[solarlottry]

Why would you assume that I had this in my possession prior to the post?

if you didnt have it in your possession then i am wondering what basis you used to call the shirt good? Are you a Mariners jersey expert and have a large collection etc? Without images, style and photo-matches, or extensive knowledge of a teams jerseys or LOAs, saying a shirt is good or bad can be tough. The bottom line is that if someone wants to say something is good or bad please say why!

[MarinersFan34]

First off, I will admit I made a mistake in my previous post and was looking at the image of the jersey from the earlier auction and not the current one in GF. Someone had posted an image and I assumed it was the same one. However, this still does not change my view on the spacing of the jersey.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, unfortunately that card does not scan well nor does it contain the exact amount of detail we need to settle this. Looking at the card in hand I feel that the nameplate is actually larger than normal on top but is still closer to the silver piping than the jersey at auction. My point being that while they both appear to be spaced similar, the nameplate of the card photo is close to touching while the Gf one is not even close since it is on the smaller nameplate.

In the end I still wouldn't bid on it and that's my opinion and I don’t feel the need to keep defending my opinion if he can simply say, “I say it’s legit, prove it’s bad” if he doesn’t have to prove it’s good. Where are the other jerseys with this same spacing? The small nameplate spaced well below the piping? Who is this impeccable source? Actually.. who cares? If the potential buyer isn't smart enough to read the thread, do any reasearch of their own and make their own informed decision, that's not my problem.

Interesting that MY exact scan was overlooked until it was reposted by Baseball83 and now he's getting credit for magically making the jersey legit by posting this "new" info :rolleyes:

Just taking someones word a shirt is good is not enough for me anymore. Especially when it doesn't fit the standard for the rest of the teams jerseys.

In parting, nothing rings more true than the age old saying from Milt B. “Do your homework”.

[justinwc80]

Went for over 2,000 so someone seemed to like it. Makes me feel good abou the value of my jersey with his signed COA. Hope the jersey turns out good for the buyer.

[bogey]

Do you guys consider a Griffey LOA as good as gold in determining their authenticity?

[MarinersFan34]

Went for over 2,000 so someone seemed to like it. Makes me feel good abou the value of my jersey with his signed COA. Hope the jersey turns out good for the buyer.

Agreed, perhaps I was the only paranoid one about the jersey and who knows maybe all these photos helped in the decision to bid, maybe not. Kinda interesteing though how it went from.. opinions anyone?, to a bump to a couple pages thread.

Regardless of the opinions or outcome, this kinda stuff is good for the hobby, get things exposed such as pictures, style matches and knowledge about the jerseys is spread.

[djnos7]

They also have an odd looking one on ebay for buy it now 2,250. Seems odd that it was bid up so early in the game, and know one waited towards the end. I just think its strange how there's no movement, and maybe there was a hidden reserve, and didn't want to take the chance of losing it for less than what was expected 2,250,curt schilling?

[djnos7]

I think the owner of the jersey didn't want to lose it, and end up giving it away, after all the questions and negative comments surrounding the jersey! I can't say i blame them, i mean if it was mine, and i was selling it, i sure as heck wouldnt want all that negativity impacting the results of the auction in a negative way, just like BB83 stated in the beginning! That jersey sold for just under 1200 in a Leland auction back in 06', i think the jersey realistically in this market was deserving of 15-1700 out the door! 20% buyers premium doesn't help the matter...

[djnos7]

And when i say that jersey sold, i mean one that looks exactly like it with the high piping and all...

[justinwc80]

Do you guys consider a Griffey LOA as good as gold in determining their authenticity?

Since there is a documented history of Griffey selling items with these COAs they provide the best authenticity you'll find on his items other than an MLB hologram which will only exist on his last couple years and some of those only come with team letters. I think most Griffey collectors would agree with this.

[Phil316]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ken-Griffey-Jr-Seattle-Mariners-Game-Used-Jersey-1999-MLB-Game-Worn-/191943188667?hash=item2cb0b4a0bb:g:anQAAOSw6n5Xq5L w

Thoughts on this Griffey ?