Players who trade jerseys

[Birdbats]

Here's an interesting article on players who trade jerseys with other players.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/PrintStory.pl?document_id=2003230873&slug=seam28&date=20060828

I knew this went on, but didn't realize it was so widespread. Adds a new wrinkle to the whole "game used" vs. "game issued" debate since it seems these traded jerseys aren't necessarily worn before being traded. I've been told that Pujols does this (I'd think his jersey is really in demand), but the jerseys he gives away are tailored differently than his gamers -- gamers have a straight hem, the "giveaways" have tails. I'm also aware of "gift jerseys" that have 6200 laundry tags. I've wondered if Majestic, knowing an order of a dozen jerseys is being made for player trading, intentionally supplies 6200 jerseys. It could explain why some "gamers" have 6200 tags. Who knows?

Jeff

http://www.birdbats.com

[hblakewolf]

Re: Players who trade jerseys

Forum Readers-
Not sure if anyone is aware that Majestic has an account that allows ANY equipment manager from ANY MLB team to order the exact same jersey from any player/team. For example, the Mariners equipment manager can order a 2006 Jeter jersey. This jersey will have the EXACT same tagging (0062) and be manufactured to the same specs as the one Jeter is currently wearing on the field.

If you have any doubt about this happening, just take a look at some of the current auctions that have the "superstar" jerseys, with all the correct tags, however, show little or no use.

If an equipment manager orders an assortment of 20 superstar jerseys, there is a possibility of making some great side money. A $2,000 investment can easily turn into $20,000 or more.

Now combine this with the story about the players also ordering game jerseys and you have a pretty sad state of affairs.

I'll stick with the older knits and pass on the Majestic mass produced crap.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[metsbats]

Re: Players who trade jerseys

Howard,

That great and distressing infomation. That's why I like the older 80's jerseys.

When you say the same exact specs does that include any custom tagging (ie -1 sleeves, +2 inch lengths, etc), and set and year tags. I thought the teams put those on and not the manufacturing company.

Thanks
-David

[hblakewolf]

Re: Players who trade jerseys

David-
Majestic sews the tagging on during manufacturing, not the team.

I was told that the shirts ordered by the equip. mgrs. are the EXACT same, including tagging.

I'm sure Majestic will deny that equip. mgrs. can order these jerseys, however, please remember that I also was told directly from a source inside of MLB that Majestic had 2 different codes on their jerseys, 0062 and 6200, which Majestic denied after I made this "strictly private" info public.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[RobSteinmetz]

Re: Players who trade jerseys

Based on my personal experience in speaking to folks who manage special events hosted by MLB athletes, I can tell you with certainty that a large percentage of jerseys special ordered by players (or equipment managers) of players not on their team are not always completely correct (proper tagging, correct size, etc.).

In fact, I recently attended an event in Chicago in which there were 15-20 signed jerseys, most of which were obtained by a MLB player by ordering them directly from Majestic for the sole purpose of having them signed for the charity auction. 99% of the jerseys were coded "0062", but most had problems. Here are some of my observations:

White Sox - This event had 4 superstar jerseys (Thome, Konerko, Dye, Buehrle). All were "0062" coded, all were the proper sizes for each player. None had the strip tag on the tail, as is appropriate for this year's Sox jerseys.

Braves - This event had 3 superstar jerseys (Smoltz, Jones, Jones). All were "0062" coded, all were the proper sizes for each player. None had any year tagging, which should be found on this year's Braves shirts.

Cardinals - This event had 3 superstar jerseys (Rolen, Pujols, Edmonds). Rolen and Pujols were "0062" coded, Edmonds was "6200" coded. The Pujols, although pro-coded, was the wrong size - 52 instead of his proper size 50. Rolen was the correct size, as was Edmonds. None had year tagging (some Cardinals jerseys have year tagging this year, some do not).

Cubs - Because the event was hosted by a Cubs player, all of the Cubs jerseys in the auction were properly tagged, and in most cases, showed evidence of use. These clearly weren't "extras" ordered just for this event.

Although there were some definite "gamers" mixed in to this group, there were many jerseys obtained by this MLB player that were clearly "extras" ordered by the Cubs equipment manager. Long story short...know what is correct for your team or your player before you purchase a current game worn jersey. Although equipment managers and players are allowed to order other players/teams jerseys from Majestic, things aren't always as they seem.

[hblakewolf]

Re: Players who trade jerseys

Rob-
I don't disagree with you that there may be differences, however, did the individual who ordered these jerseys for the charity specifically "DEMAND" that they be manufactured/purchased to the exact same specs as those worn, i.e., did he order them in the correct size and ask for year tags, strip tags, etc? I was told that the equip. mgrs. can order the EXACT same jersey as those supplied to the players. I'd be willing to bet that if the individual you reference had demanded the same shirt as Pujols wears (size 50) that he would have received it in size 50, not 52. Likewise, Braves jerseys would have the strip tag if specified.

It's interesting how you mention that the Braves jerseys were void of the strip tags. If memory serves correct, we had a huge debate on this Forum about this issue and also related to the Red Sox having/not having strip tags. Maybe this sheds some light on why you see Braves and Red Sox 2004, 2005, 2006 jerseys with the coorect 0062 tag, however, void of the embroidered tag in the tail.

Regardless, if an equip. mgr. orders a Pujols, and it is manufactured to the incorrect size 52, how many novice collectors will be aware of the incorrect size once it's featured in an auction or sale list? Or a Red Sox 2005 or 2006 jersey void of the year tag, however, has a LOA from Lampson?


Just my thoughts......

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

Based on my personal experience in speaking to folks who manage special events hosted by MLB athletes, I can tell you with certainty that a large percentage of jerseys special ordered by players (or equipment managers) of players not on their team are not always completely correct (proper tagging, correct size, etc.).

In fact, I recently attended an event in Chicago in which there were 15-20 signed jerseys, most of which were obtained by a MLB player by ordering them directly from Majestic for the sole purpose of having them signed for the charity auction. 99% of the jerseys were coded "0062", but most had problems. Here are some of my observations:

White Sox - This event had 4 superstar jerseys (Thome, Konerko, Dye, Buehrle). All were "0062" coded, all were the proper sizes for each player. None had the strip tag on the tail, as is appropriate for this year's Sox jerseys.

Braves - This event had 3 superstar jerseys (Smoltz, Jones, Jones). All were "0062" coded, all were the proper sizes for each player. None had any year tagging, which should be found on this year's Braves shirts.

Cardinals - This event had 3 superstar jerseys (Rolen, Pujols, Edmonds). Rolen and Pujols were "0062" coded, Edmonds was "6200" coded. The Pujols, although pro-coded, was the wrong size - 52 instead of his proper size 50. Rolen was the correct size, as was Edmonds. None had year tagging (some Cardinals jerseys have year tagging this year, some do not).

Cubs - Because the event was hosted by a Cubs player, all of the Cubs jerseys in the auction were properly tagged, and in most cases, showed evidence of use. These clearly weren't "extras" ordered just for this event.

Although there were some definite "gamers" mixed in to this group, there were many jerseys obtained by this MLB player that were clearly "extras" ordered by the Cubs equipment manager. Long story short...know what is correct for your team or your player before you purchase a current game worn jersey. Although equipment managers and players are allowed to order other players/teams jerseys from Majestic, things aren't always as they seem.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Players who trade jerseys

jeff, rob, howard,

fantastic information! after noticing huge quantities of certain jerseys, i now have a better idea of how the glut was created. i was really wondering where all these mint, "game issued"-style jerseys were coming from. (has there been a single auction in the past 2 yrs that hasn't had a pujols jersey?).

rob, in addressing these special-ordered, non-used jerseys, you describe how many aren't entirely "correct". the pujols jersey, for example, was a 52 instead of a 50. others lacked certain tagging. they had, in other words, some anomalies from legit versions. however, you're well aware that legit, gameworn jerseys don't always follow a conclusive, complete, "set in stone" list of criteria. there'll always be anomalies. the big question is how can someone know which anomalies are legit and which aren't? it isn't difficult in the least to believe, for example, that pujols might've tried a few 52s. it seems to me that the information provided by jeff, howard and yourself indicates that these recent trends now make it even more difficult for someone to discern legit from not legit. it's very difficult to know what's truly correct when the definition of correct has some leeway inherantly and legitimately built into it. (what the jersey hobby really needs is what the bat hobby has - access to factory records. making the order forms from majestic, rawlings, and russell available would solve most of these issues).

if howard's correct, then many of these jerseys may not even have any anomalies. i suppose the only thing you're left with in that case is to look at the game-use (or lack thereof).

at one point, i think the biggest concern was about fraudsters creating doctored jerseys. for various reasons, i think this concern is slowly becoming antiquated. it requires a lot of work that's no longer necessary now that teams and players themselves are selling pro-spec jerseys by the boatload, and teams are selling legit game-issued jerseys directly to the public. it's turned into a windfall for anyone who ever wanted to turn a quick buck.

although there was some deliberate market saturation with certain jerseys in the 90's (eg: ken griffey jr), i think this current era is witnessing a dramatic new shift in the supply and authenticity of jerseys and i don't think it's a good thing. in the 90s, card companies over-supplied the market simply because they thought they were meeting the demand. as it turned out, the deliberate over-supply killed the very market they were trying to satisfy and profit from. i can't help but see a parallel in the current state of jerseys. the supply of jerseys has increased to an unbelievable point simply because it seems everyone wants to cash in and new channels of supply have enabled them to do so.

rudy.

[ahuff]

Re: Players who trade jerseys

Great post Rudy. I couldn't help but think of the same thing while reading this post, and during recent days of collecting. Recent days have made me seriously reconsider what I collect, when it comes to the new stuff.

[GrndSlm]

Re: Players who trade jerseys

Alot of this information has been rumored for years. We must remember that part of the "hobby" is investigating and hunting for these prized pieces. I also know for a fact that players order jerseys for trade. My clients have instructed there equipt. mgrs to order them 10-12 jerseys before the season actually starts. This usually means that those jerseys come in all at the same time with proper tagging and sizes. Usually, any pieces that are ordered during the season will come in with some kind of problem. But, who is to say whether they used this item or not ? I also have obtained jerseys directly from the player with somekind of issue or inconsistancy. Recently, one of my clients obtained a Pujols jersey directly after the game and it had the proper tag and size but was a 6200. I cant get anymore direct than that !! Remember that players have been doing this with bats for years and we managed to enjoy the hobby with many lightly used bats hitting the market. Lets just try and continued the trend with jerseys and just buy what makes you happy.

Thanks,
Juan Iglesias
GrndSLm@aol.com

[GrndSlm]

Re: Players who trade jerseys

Now, in reference to any equipt. mgr. ordering jerseys......My clients have asked me to order jerseys ,of other players, through the team and I personally have talked to the equipt mgr. with mixed results. They have ordered the jerseys for me but in no way have they ever come back with proper game used tagging. !! Also, in 2001 Livan Hernandez had asked me to order some Yankee jerseys using his brothers name with the equipt mgr. I ordered a Mariano Rivera, and El Duque for Livan and his brother. None of these pieces came back with proper tagging and they ALL had the "R" on the sleeve. I guess what I am trying to say is that these jerseys could be ordered through the teams but I personally have never received a properly tagged non-generic jersey through this process. Last note, Pujols is very selective with all his game used items. ( as most of you know). He gave Livan a jersey on the last meeting they had last year and personalized it to him. He doesnt give out his GAMERS without personalizing them first or through his foundation. Stuff always filter out but not through proper channels. Enjoy !!

Juan Iglesias
GrndSlm@aol.com

[allstarsplus]

Re: Players who trade jerseys

Remember that players have been doing this with bats for years and we managed to enjoy the hobby with many lightly used bats hitting the market. Lets just try and continued the trend with jerseys and just buy what makes you happy.

Great thread. Dontrelle Willis isn't selling his jerseys that he has collected on eBay so he's not the problem. I can't imagine the problem is that widespread outside of all the Pujols jerseys and Bonds jerseys out there.

Seems to me it is still the old issue with the crafty person with good embroidery and sewing skills buying the blanks.

[GrndSlm]

Re: Players who trade jerseys

Andrew, I agree with your statement. I am seeing alot more problems with stitching, interior tagging 0062 vs 6200 and different style lettering. How many times do you actually see a jersey that is perfect in every detail except the it has little use !! I know that they are out there but all the other problems with jerseys usually are more consistent than the criticism of where it came from.

Juan Iglesias
GrndSlm@aol.com

[kingjammy24]

Re: Players who trade jerseys

i suppose everyone's got a different experiences. i find myself finding a decent amount of "perfect jerseys" that show little use to be honest.

part of the issue is that the other "problems" mentioned aren't always problems. wash codes, for example, aren't ironclad guarantees. 6200s will sometimes end up in locker rooms and be genuinely used. it'd be naive to look at a jersey and decide that because it's a 6200, then couldn't possibly have been game used.

as for clearly incorrect fonts, i don't run across those too often. i'd guess that the hobby is sophisticated enough that most aren't going to commit blatant font errors. as for subtle font differences, teams themselves are sometimes inconsistent.

rob mentioned incorrect sizes. players often change sizes or experiment with sizes to see what fits best. i've even seen some players legitimately take a different size in a road jersey than a home jersey. how's it possible to look at a pujols jersey, for example, and determine that he never wore a 52 in any game?

dontrelle may not be selling his collection (yet), however what about joe benchwarmer who obtained an ortiz jersey? how about, as howard mentioned, the players who aren't even trading but rather just ordering any jersey they like? joe benchwarmer knows he isn't going to have a long, profound career so while he's in the majors he's ordering up boatloads of willis',ramirez', howards', etc etc. joe benchwarmer knows it's like printing money. where do those end up? what about the equipment managers? are none of them ordering these jerseys for themselves?

as for motives etc., after seeing ARod make $250 mill and STILL sign memorabilia deals (how much money can 1 human possibly want?) or griffey jr making gobs of cash and yet STILL deliberately flood the market with his bats and jerseys or manny ramirez making more money than he can possibly spend in 1 lifetime choosing to sell dozens of jerseys to make even more money, i don't think logic applies to any of this. manny probably sold around $30k-$40k worth of his jerseys a year. why would a man making $20 mill a year bother selling $30k worth of jerseys?

if you think this isn't going to pose any sort of problem, then i'd like to know what you make of the ramirez jersey situation. were all those ramirez jerseys pumped out by manny in 2003 and 2004 of no consequence? dozens and dozens of jerseys sold for thousands a piece, like some sort of assembly line pumping them out all with manny's own loa. even though they had bizarre tagging, people still snapped them up because they came directly from manny.

players may have been doing this for awhile but my point is that it seems to be escalating to an unprecidented level. look at the early 90's - how many players were marketing their game used items? look at how many are marketing them now. the escalation is cause for concern. it's one thing, for example, if your neighborhood experiences 1 burgarly a year. if that number jumps to 50 a year, it's a different matter.

the effort to make a stellar fake is substantial. why bother with all that work when apparently you can just order up 30 david ortiz jerseys all properly tagged and perfectly numbered/lettered?

i don't think dontrelle is rushing to ebay but a clubhouse is filled more than multimillionaire superstars. if equipment managers, thirdstring players who are a week away from a lifetime return to AA ball, and all of their friends/"business associates" have access to as many perfect, superstar jerseys as they can carry, then i think dismissing that situation as trivial is shortsighted.

rudy.

[allstarsplus]

Re: Players who trade jerseys

Rudy - You make some great points about ARod, Manny and the rest, but I think they have hurt their own market values because of the simple economics of supply/demand. Too much supply or low demand will keep the price down over time.

Look at what Yankees-Steiner prices have done over the last 2 seasons on jerseys (except Jeter & Matsui). You would never see last year a Yankee jersey selling for under $300!

[metsbats]

Re: Players who trade jerseys

I agree with Rudy that the market will be oversaturated with current player GU product whether it be legit or illegit. We saw it with the card companies and it's only a matter of time the GU bubble will burst (the Yankees products being a prime example).

Knowing that authentic game issue jerseys can be ordered and custom patches and embroidery can be applied for a price is very disturbing.

-David