Pujols Bats

[shoremen44]

I have been offered a few Pujols bats lately and have passed on several of them due to several different issues...

Most noteably, I want really solid gamers...

As well I have been watching this bat on ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160609322334

and I was shocked to see it end at $3,100... with the influx of these bats I am really surprised at the prices they are bringing...

I would love to hear other comments, because I would have placed the value of that bat in the $1500 to $2000 range... $3100 is more of a rookie gamer price to me.

Have I completely lost it?... maybe I need to re-evaluate what some of my collection is worth


Bert

[flota89]

I have been offered a few Pujols bats lately and have passed on several of them due to several different issues...

Most noteably, I want really solid gamers...

As well I have been watching this bat on ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160609322334

and I was shocked to see it end at $3,100... with the influx of these bats I am really surprised at the prices they are bringing...

I would love to hear other comments, because I would have placed the value of that bat in the $1500 to $2000 range... $3100 is more of a rookie gamer price to me.

Have I completely lost it?... maybe I need to re-evaluate what some of my collection is worth


Bert

I'd say your collection is worth a lot more than you probably thought. I thought the same thing about all those recent gamers.

[rj_lucas]

The influx of a couple dozen bats plus or minus doesn't come close to addressing the demand, so there's been no drag on pricing. If anything, my sense is that prices have ticked up.

Unless the supply rises to meet demand, or the demand decreases to match supply, there's no reason to believe market values will drop. Babe Ruth signed thousands of balls but good luck finding a decent example under $5K.

The true rarities, such as rookie and milestone bats (i.e. extraordinarily small supply and extraordinarily high demand) push the pricing curve even further. So few have been sold privately or publicly that it's very difficult to assign a market value IMO.

Rick

[CampWest]

Yeah, I'd have loved to grab that Pujols at 1500-2000. I think thats a really solid buy. It probably is still an okay buy at 3k. Before your reassess your collection, lets make a deal, maybe two. :D

[momen55]

with so many out there, that is too much money. if no one buys them, the price will come down.

[vonbrandingo]

Shoremen44, that bat that you link to in your post sold for 3750 on eBay a few months ago. Maybe the price difference has something to do with his injury or the fact that there was another example graded gu 10 signed in silver for sale at the same time. That one sold for 3050 on eBay.

I have a feeling we've seen only a small fraction of these 2010 gamers from Pujols' Dec 4 signing.

[5toolplayer]

At the beginning of the season I bought a beautiful 2009 auto Pujols Marucci gamer PSA 9.5 for $3100 and just picked up a auto Pujols 2006 SAM game used bat PSA 7.5 for 1750.00....so IMO Pujols bats aren't going to be going down anytime soon.


2006 SAM Bat PSA 7.5 Auto= $1750

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220797230430&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_746wt_1114


2009 Marucci Bat PSA 9.5 Auto= $3100http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x369/5toolplayer/09gamer.jpg

[shoremen44]

Yeah, I'd have loved to grab that Pujols at 1500-2000. I think thats a really solid buy. It probably is still an okay buy at 3k. Before your reassess your collection, lets make a deal, maybe two. :D

Wes... lol... thanks for the offer

[CampWest]

Wes... lol... thanks for the offer


I was watching the one that ended early this morning and under 2k was really my budget, when I went to bed last night it was still at 1200 or so ... I was hoping everyone else was taking a long weekend and sleeping in. Sadly, it went too high for me right now.

[MLB~NUT]

Nice Pujols bat 5tool, I agree unless his #'s come down after he returns from the wrist injury for the rest of his career, prices will always be HIGH on anything Pujols Game Used!!!

[BostonSportsFan]

I contacted forum member grandslam yesterday Juan Iglasias who I believe has been a long time member on this forum regarding an Albert Pujols 2011 gamer he has available for sale. I was informed of this by a good friend and have been looking for a solid Pujols for some time. The first two pictures are of the bat in question that Juan was making available for sale. The bottom two pictures are courtesy of another forum member Andrew Lang who I contacted as Juan informed me this bat was obtained when the Cardinals visited the Nats last month. Andrew is a great friend and solid source of course on Nats items and I knew he had handled Pujols bats in the past.

Is this the same bat? If so, how would it show use when it showed none? I am told that Jeff Scott has been advised of this matter and according to Jeff this bat was not used during that series in Washington. I will let Jeff comment on that if he chooses to do so. If these are the same bat and this bat was not used by Pujols during this visit to Washington yet according to Juan was obtained directly from the Nationals during or after that series then how is the use explained on this bat? It is my opinion and that of several others that these are one and the same bat.

Something is not right here and I intend to get to the bottom of it.

Best,

Joe

jmahoney252@yahoo.com

[rj_lucas]

No question it's the same bat e.g. the small dot to the lower left of the date code and the blemish above the P in AP5.

Joe, can you post additional photos of the 'game use'? It's easy to fake scuff marks, but much harder to fake seam impressions from a 95 MPH pitch hit by a bat traveling at 100 MPH.

Like you, I'd be curious to hear responses from all involved parties.

Rick

[CampWest]

Without question the exact same knob. knick above the 4, dot left of the 3, half circle right of the big 5, and indisputably wood grains identical...

[GrndSlm]

This in unbelievable....Yes, i have been a long time Forum member and have helped countless people start, find and continue to have a great time collecting. The photos that I have are the ones of the bat that I received and sold. I did get it from a contact which Ive been doing business with for years !! What now every bat, jersey and sock that I get from this guy is FAKE. Come on, this is insulting and thats why very prominent LONG time dealers dont even post here. Im done.....

By the way, any false statements on my integrity that get posted better be justified. I dont play that and I will follow legal action against anyone that does. Get to the bottom of that

Juan Iglesias
GrndSlm@aol.com

[BostonSportsFan]

He said he did not have any additional photos beyond those two I posted. I am posting three additional photos that Juan shared with me on the bat he had available for sale. You can make up your own mind on this matter. I believe I already posted the one photo previously. Juan indicated to me yesterday afternoon that the bat had in fact sold after I had inquired about it so it is apparently no longer available for sale in any case.

Given the fact that he viewed photos of this bat after the Cards left town and it had zero use and was game issued, then I am not sure what the explanation is on how it suddenly has game use. I don't know Juan Iglasias personally all I know is what is being shown here. Had I not run this by him I would have never known anything about this matter. Jeff Scott has each of Albert's at bats during the Nats series on video and Jeff has stated to him that Albert did not use this bat in any of the games. Again, perhaps Jeff can provide some feedback on here as well on this matter.

Juan just posted himself that the bat was obtained by him from a contact with the team who he has been working with for years. Again, I have no idea but something is not right here. While I am also no expert on Pujols, I will leave that matter to Jeff Scott, Bert Magladry and other Pujols collectors, the ball marks don't look right to me nor do they look correct to a number of collectors who have personally called me to question this now that they have seen these photos based on typical Pujols use patterns.

Perhaps Juan can explain how this makes sense?

Rather than getting angry and defensive, just address the issue period.
Best,

Joe

[earlywynnfan]

This in unbelievable....Yes, i have been a long time Forum member and have helped countless people start, find and continue to have a great time collecting. The photos that I have are the ones of the bat that I received and sold. I did get it from a contact which Ive been doing business with for years !! What now every bat, jersey and sock that I get from this guy is FAKE. Come on, this is insulting and thats why very prominent LONG time dealers dont even post here. Im done.....

By the way, any false statements on my integrity that get posted better be justified. I dont play that and I will follow legal action against anyone that does. Get to the bottom of that

Juan Iglesias
GrndSlm@aol.com

FWIW, I don't see anyone attacking you or saying everything you have is FAKE, I see one bad bat here that could use some explaining.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

[GrndSlm]

I've been an agent for 20 years and a collector for 30. I don't need or want to sell items for a living. I only sell to keep my contacts happy and occassionally keep stuff for myself. Now, if you recall or check my previous post, I have sold Pujols issued maruccis on this forum for $325!! I doubt that I would have done that if what your alledging is true....now, Andrew I know hangs at the stadium because I have also seen him in DC when I visit my clients. This situation I find ridiculous because anyone who has done business with me can only say that it came out clean. I have no reason in the world to doubt a 12 year relationship with a guy who knows that I negotiate several Nationals players contracts....on my end, I don't have any issues with anything.

Juan Iglesias

[shoremen44]

Thanks for calling me a Pujols expert... Lol... I know enough to make bad decisions... Lol...

I have leaned on Jeff Scott and Rob Steinmetz for years and they have always been very helpful... Two great guys

As far as the bat pics below, I al not good enough to confirm game use without handling the bat... What I do know is that the pics Andrew Lang provided and Juan provided in my opinion are the same bat.

I have dealt with Andrew in the past and he is beyond reproach... A truly stand up guy.

However, as someone who was falsely accused of wrongdoing recently... We need to give Juan the benefit of the doubt.

Someone altered that bat... But until everyone can respond I recommend we hold judgment

[allstarsplus]

I am on a July 4th holiday with the family at the beach. Distressing to say the least to see and read this. I have no horse in this race and not the buyer or seller of this bat. I did have pictures that I passed along.

As you all know, I have received some amazing Pujols bats in the past actually going back to 2001 when I had a relationship with Albert's cousin and had too many problems which led me to relying mainly on player sources and the players I have under contract. I can tell you I got duped in the old days myself on some SAM bats and that is a story for another day and have John Taube to thank for an amazing education on those and Jeff Scott and Rob Steinmetz on a Mizuno I almost got stuck with. Let's face it, Albert Pujols is the greatest player of this generation and commands prices that are in a class by itself which leads to many fakes in the hobby. Thank goodness for GUU and the people here.

[Birdbats]

Here's all I know. Juan contacted me and offered me the bat (after another collector, who'd also been approached by Juan, had sent me the photos and asked my opinion). I didn't see any glaring red flags in the photos provided. I tried to photo match the bat's distinct ball marks to Albert's bats used during the Cards/Nats series, but was unable to do so. Still, I hadn't ruled out buying the bat. Then I was contacted by Andrew via e-mail, who sent photos of what undoubtedly appears to be the same bat with no use. At that point, I decided to not pursue the bat. I'm not pointing any fingers because I don't know what happened or who is responsible. But, it seems clear after speaking with Andrew that Albert's bat didn't exhibit any use until after Albert left it behind in Washington.

[kellsox]

"Hopefully a good bat repairer can sand off those white ball marks and repaint it back to its luster. A real shame and tragedy."

Not sure how this makes anything right...a game ready bat in which use has mysteriously appeared then fixed to look game ready again??? I would hope this doen't end up being the case.


Unless I'm missing something, no one has accused grndslam of wrongdoing. I think what people are trying to determine is where the use came from in between the time Andrew saw it as game ready/ issued and it was sold as game used.

Its incidents like this that seem to be popping up more frequently that take away a lot of the joy in this hobby. A reason I personally have slowed considerably in my own collecting.

[georgia1011@yahoo.com]

Wow, GUU is amazing! Are you kidding me? I have hardly any game use skills (maybe 1 of the 5 tools) You guys are big leaguers and I am getting so much knowledge reading posts on this sight. I love it

[MarkakisMania]

It seems clear at this point that the bats are the same from both photos. It would further appear that Andrew Lang is telling the truth here what purpose he would have to make any of this up is beyond me.

Juan needs to explain two things.

1. Where exactly he got this bat from. Who handed the bat to him for sale?

2. What was the date that Juan obtained the bat?

The answers to both questions might go a long way in solving this problem.

Someone clearly is either covering things up or lying or both. Maybe Juan is correct but the question is did he instruct his "source" to obtain him a game used Pujols and maybe his "source" got him a gamer one way or the other. Clearly there is plenty of incentive for even guys in a clubhouse to do this when we are talking about the difference of several thousand dollars between a game issued and game used bat of a player like Pujols. Would that person or any person in that position be putting themselves in serious jeapordy doing something like that? Sure, but I would assume that they are already putting themselves in jeapordy. Even if this was obtained directly from the clubhouse manager, what authority does that person have to remove game used bats or jersey's from the visiting team clubhouse?

We all know that this business works that way but it seems like a pretty sweet deal for Juan and anybody else in that type of position. He apparently has a source in the visting team clubhouse that removes gamers out the back door and then get sold for a nice profit. Perhaps that makes sense with his own clients game used stuff, but does it make sense with random other players?

These questions need to be answered. Between the time Andrew Lang photographed this bat and the time it was obtained by Juan somebody added use to it and it is pretty clear that somebody was not Pujols.


Jeb

[rj_lucas]

The earlier post by 5toolplayer featured an excellent photo of the seam impressions you would expect to find on a Pujols gamer. Here's another.

Anyone looking for an Albert Pujols game used bat would do well to study the photos of these usage characteristics and commit them to memory...

Rick

[BostonSportsFan]

Juan, the silence is deafening. Anything you care to state here? There have been some excellent questions posed that deserve what should be very easy and quick answers. Those answers would eliminate the need for you to throw out any further unwarranted threats of a lawsuit against forum members who simply want to know what's going on here. If you have done nothing wrong and have simply offered this bat as you received it, then please share that with us. The questions posed are very reasonable from whom was the bat received, and on what date was it received? Please address some very warranted concerns regarding something painfully wrong with this Pujols bat.

If you have done nothing wrong as you claim then simply answer those two questions and that will at least clear up several lingering issues about this bat.

I am glad I did not lay out big money for this bat whatever the story behind it ends up being.

Joe

[lakeerie92]

I don't think this issue is on Juan and probably the reason he hasn't responded. He clearly has a clubhouse source by the items he lists for sale. I have no doubt he gets quality items from his clubhouse source. If I had a source like that not only would I not out him to a bunch of rabid forum members, I wouldn't share his information either because it would hurt his access to that person.

It appears as if that person has done wrong and I am sure Juan is just as upset about this as everyone else and now needs to be more careful with his clubhouse source.

Based on what I have seen from Juan he appears to be a stand up guy that ended up believing the bat was game used.

[BostonSportsFan]

I don't think this issue is on Juan and probably the reason he hasn't responded. He clearly has a clubhouse source by the items he lists for sale. I have no doubt he gets quality items from his clubhouse source. If I had a source like that not only would I not out him to a bunch of rabid forum members, I wouldn't share his information either because it would hurt his access to that person.

It appears as if that person has done wrong and I am sure Juan is just as upset about this as everyone else and now needs to be more careful with his clubhouse source.

Based on what I have seen from Juan he appears to be a stand up guy that ended up believing the bat was game used.


If that is indeed the case, how could you possibly trust this person ever again??? How in fact do you know that this person has not done this in the past??? Juan indicated that he has had a long term relationship with this individual for a number of years, if the trail leads back to this guy then so be it, but at this point, I certainly would not be attempting to cover for a guy that just put me in this type of situation by doctoring up bats.

Again, I don't know Juan and have never done any business with him. Perhaps his source burned him here, but the last thing I would be worrying about is protecting that source to ensure future business especially in light of the seriousness of this situation and what appears to be a blatant case of someone doctoring a bat with use.

If anything, had I purchased anything at any point from this seller I would be going to the display case and reevauating anything I purchased from him in the past. Perhaps he has no idea that this happened in this case but we simply don't know if and when it may have happened in the past. I would say it certainly however calls into question anything that came from this said source in the past to say the least.

Joe

[jetersbatboy]

Rule#16

In instances where a forum member is identifying an item in the hobby they believe to have issues, the poster should clearly state their findings in the form of an opinion and provide adequate rationale for why they believe there is an issue. When possible, we recommend that the poster questioning an item attempt to contact the seller of the item and allow at least 24 hours for the seller to reply before posting. This will prevent postings that may be generated based on misunderstandings of an item. In addition, while this forum is designed to help educate collectors, we will not allow comments that accuse entities in the hobby of participating in any form of criminal wrong-doing. Any posts suggesting criminal wrong-doing should be brought to the attention of the moderators immediately.

I think Juan should give the benefit of the doubt, as he has bin a upstanding member on this board for sometime. I can not see someone of his standing in the hobby and MLB agency, risk his reputation on what would be a minimal profit, for a career choice of what most of use dream.

I also think this thread should be locked, as forum rule #16 was broken. there does not seem to have bin any contact between Juan and Joe regarding the issue before this thread was derailed from it original intention. If there was contact on this issue please disregard my post.

[MarkakisMania]

Maybe Juan can explain this as I am a little confused here, If I am to understand correctly, Juan is a CONTRACT AGENT with 3 current Nationals under contract. Why does a contract agent sell other players items that they don't represent? Isn't that against some code of ethics? It would be like Scott Boras doing the same thing. Can you imagine Scott Boras or Greg Genske or Casey Close personally selling an Albert Pujols bat? Juan, you claim to have 3 clients on the Washington Nationals including Livan Hernandez, do you really need to be hawking other players stuff for extra money?


While I am sure this might happen elsewhere, I simply cannot imagine contract agents actively selling game used memorabilia of players they do not represent under contract.

You make yourself out to be some sort of saint but are you just simply another guy out there looking for a quick buck because of the position of access you have to players inside the clubhouse? Does this stuff you obtain ever come directly from the players you represent? Again, on some level it seems like a conflict of interest.

Hopefully we hear back from Juan and can clear up this mess shortly.

Jeb

[kln32225@hotmail.com]

Getting back to the original observation made in this thread, perhaps the last 2 1/2 pages of this thread is a reason why someone would pay $3K+ for an authentic game used Pujols bat. :)

[Dach0sen0ne]

I bet this is what it was like in Salem, Massachusetts back in 1692.

[gorilla777]

I bet this is what it was like in Salem, Massachusetts back in 1692.

True, or maybe the McCarthy hearings of the 1950s?

[BostonSportsFan]

Maybe Juan can explain this as I am a little confused here, If I am to understand correctly, Juan is a CONTRACT AGENT with 3 current Nationals under contract. Why does a contract agent sell other players items that they don't represent? Isn't that against some code of ethics? It would be like Scott Boras doing the same thing. Can you imagine Scott Boras or Greg Genske or Casey Close personally selling an Albert Pujols bat? Juan, you claim to have 3 clients on the Washington Nationals including Livan Hernandez, do you really need to be hawking other players stuff for extra money?


While I am sure this might happen elsewhere, I simply cannot imagine contract agents actively selling game used memorabilia of players they do not represent under contract.

You make yourself out to be some sort of saint but are you just simply another guy out there looking for a quick buck because of the position of access you have to players inside the clubhouse? Does this stuff you obtain ever come directly from the players you represent? Again, on some level it seems like a conflict of interest.

Hopefully we hear back from Juan and can clear up this mess shortly.

Jeb





Jeb, this is a great point. When I first contacted Juan two days ago, I did so at the advice of another collector that said he had this Pujols bat available for sale. I always like to know who I am dealing with and upon doing some additional research I now realize that Juan is a Contract Agent for what according to Baseball Reference is only Livan Hernandez. Ironically, he and Greg Genske another agent are listed as dual agents for Livan. http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?id=hernali01&t=p&year.

Who are the other two players on the Nationals that he represents? I could not find any additional information that Juan currently represents any other players as a contract agent other than Livan Hernandez. Ultimately that does not matter in this case as clearly he does not represent Albert Pujols http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/pujolal01.shtml who is the player in this situation whose memorabilia is being sold by a sports contract agent that does not represent that player in any capacity.

Greg is currently the lead agent/owner in a group at LS Legacy Sports Group and represents a number of baseball and football players. I do not know who the other players are that Juan represents but I would pose several questions on this matter based on the above.

1. Is Greg Genske who apparently would be Juan's boss aware that a Contract agent is actively selling game used memorabilia of players he does not represent on the field? Would this be a matter of concern to Genske if he was aware of this situation?

Again, to the best of my knowledge, Juan is not a memorabilia agent. He clearly is not a Steiner Sports, or Scot Monette or similar that have memorabilia contracts in place with players and teams. There is to the best of my knowledge a MAJOR difference between a contract agent and a memorabilia agent that is compounded by the fact as pointed out by Jeb this agent is selling memorabilia from a player or players he does not even represent in any capacity. Is that a conflict of interest on many levels?

2. Another additional google search turns up the following, http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/04/27/livan-hernandez-is-the-target-of-a-money-laundering-probe/

Livan is currently being investigated by a number of federal agencies for what amounts to money laudering and dealing with a known Puerto Rican Drug Dealer. While this does not specifically deal with this bat, it seems like a situation where if I was this guy's agent, I would not want anything on any level to come to the surface in terms of bad press or questions about my business ethics. The fact that your client is associating with someone at this level is very bad to say the least.

What is extremely troubling to me is that someone is now in possession of a doctored bat. I have no idea what Juan was payed for this bat, as we never got to discussing a price for it. Juan told me via email that he possibly would have the bat spoken for so we never got around to price. Later that day several hours later he emailed me back and told me that the bat was sold. Someone clearly paid I am sure a very dear price for a forged bat of a player that is also clearly at the very top of the market in dollar value for today's stars. I am sure that buyer if they are aware of this is not too happy. Whomever doctored this bat did so at the expense of the buyer and collectors alike.

At the very least no matter who is at fault here, I am assuming that Juan will do the right thing since there appears to be zero question that this bat was doctored up and contact the buyer and fully refund this bat, make the buyer whole again and get this bad bat back out of the hobby. I would expect him to at least update us that the buyer has been made whole on this terrible deal.

This point was posted before, Many people are giving Juan the benefit of the doubt and that is fine until we find out what exactly happened if we ever really do. The fact is, we have no idea if and when this has happened before but I would certainly question anything purchased prior and certainly moving forward coming from this seller.

Several Pujols bat experts have come forward and stated on this thread that they cannot conclusively determine that the ball marks and seam marks on this bat are bad based on other exemplars. The only reason this bat was even caught was honestly sheer dumb luck so who is to say that this has never happened before coming from whatever source or chain of possession this occurred through? Again, we don't know conclusively who doctored this bat, we do know someone did doctor it and it was done so well, that absent the photos we would never have known it to be doctored. Since this was done so well, there honestly is probably no way to know if other items sold in the past have been doctored as well.

Clearly there are in my mind questionable practices from a licensed contract agent selling memorabilia of players he does not represent. Maybe everyone else has a different opinion on that but in my mind it is a major questionable red flag on ethics, conflict of interest, perhaps even from a legal standpoint as again, what does his boss either think about this or what if any terms are in his own contract with the agency about something like this?

Perhaps Juan will address these specific issues later today?

Joe

[Dewey2007]

While only Juan can answer questions about who had access to the bat came from before he received it, I just hope that a refund has been offered to the person who the bat was sold to. That would be the first order of business now knowing this bat was forged with game use by someone who had access to it prior to it being sold. With all of the evidence presented in this thread that is the only right thing to do.

[nycpropain]

Come on, this is insulting and thats why very prominent LONG time dealers dont even post here. Im done.....

By the way, any false statements on my integrity that get posted better be justified. I dont play that and I will follow legal action against anyone that does. Get to the bottom of that

Juan Iglesias
GrndSlm@aol.com

Why are you bringing up prominent long time dealers when discussing an obviously altered bat? Its the same EXACT bat no questions and long time dealers issues are irrelevant to this topic, we are talking about an obviously altered bat. Those long time dealers would tell you the same.

And if I where you I would call your lawyer and find out how the bat when from issued to used while in your possession. Or are you only suing people who point out that something fishy is going on? Good luck with that case. An honest source fixes this mistake, not takes his ball and leaves while threatening everyone lawsuits.

[spartanservitto]

I was also offered the bat, I have to agree, something seemed off, glad the bat was discussed.

-Tony

[Canseco44]

Juan, are you gonna respond to all of this? I have dealt with you before and have never heard anyone ever say a negative thing about you before, so I am giving you the benefit of the doubt. You have got to respond to this though and clear your name.

It seems to me that this may have happened before you got the bat, so you may have had no clue about it. Everyone needs to hear your side though. I noticed you posted in the classifieds today, so please post in this thread and clear some things up. I really hope to hear from you and that you had nothing to do with putting the use on this bat.

Thanks, Todd