The future of collecting...

[Larry Pelliccioni]

....seems to rest in those companies that are binding themselves to individuals and teams for the transferring of many of the items that we on this board would love to have.
Dealing with those that are out there lends itself to credibility on one hand and greed on the other.
As a long time collector, the ease with which one can obtain game worns has grown increasingly easier over time hence robbing me of some of the joy that went into past hunts.
While it has limited the disappointment of being told no, I find my inner voice saying no to many of the offerings based on lifestyle changes and a pricing structure well beyond a point that I feel supports such a charge.
I love this hobby. I have been a part of it for 37 years.
What I miss most is not the items I have transacted away but the fine people who were associated with it that no longer are. In a time where building relationships was the key to accumulating game worns, it is now only a case of a computer, a phone call and a credit card.
I respect today's collector who wants and demands the very best in all aspects however often overlooked and diminishing in value is the concept of trust that all of us once had.
Larry Pelliccioni

[WadeInBmore]

Re: The future of collecting...

Larry...

I'm glad to see you make this post. I have been thinking along simialar lines as I look at and evaluate my collection...and while I don't have nearly the years in the hobby as you, I have managed to hear many stories about how it used to be.

I only started collecting GU items 4-5 years ago (roughly when I joined the GUU). My quest for tracking down Frank Thomas items has lead me along a path that has introduced me to many other Thomas fans and collectors. When I hear stories about availability and cost I can only WISH that I had been collecting back then. The hobby was young and still very "qwerky" to say the least. Items were made available to be sold...and enjoyed and not just to make a ton of money.

Due inpart to the competition that is forming in the hobby, I, at times, fear that I will not be able to "complete" my collection as I see fit. I can't compete with the deep pockets of some of the card companies and, for my situation, Thomas GU items are no longer being introduced into the hobby every year since he retired. What exists out in the collecting/hobby world is what exists for collectors to fight over. Period. Kind of grim IMO.

I will continue to be patient and wait for that NEXT item to show up on the open market that I can add to the collection. I just hope that I have $ in the bank at that time to spend on it 2014 is right around the corner and I suspect a lot of items to become available (given his strong HOF potential and '14 being his first opportunity), as people will undoubtedly be looking to strike while the iron is hot.

...I will continue my quest, no matter how frustrating because it will be rewarding when I do suceed in my goals!

wade

[pacman2680]

Re: The future of collecting...

Excellent post Larry,

I too have not been around the hobby near as long as yourself, but can recall several years ago a fellow who I am sure you have all dealt with and known, he had a website called Jim's Jersey's and was able to provide me with some crucial knowledge that I needed back then getting started. He seemed glad to share insight and have a conversation about the hobby without any pressure to buy, or for that matter with no fees or strings attached. His info was invaluable to me at the time and I am happy to have crossed his path. There have been several others that helped me in the same way, and were forthcoming and honest. As you said for many dealers these days it is a bottom line business, and contacts do not matter as much. At least this site still allows us to connect with long time collectors who are still willing to share info and insight.

Cheers.

[commando]

Re: The future of collecting...

I remember scanning the weekly Sports Collectors Digests to see if any game used items would be advertised. Several steady dealers would usually have ads of various sizes, and I'd look to see if anything new popped up. I was (and still am) a New Orleans Saints fan, and clearly remember how you simply could not find a GU Saints jersey before the internet became popular. My first GU purchase happened in 1995, when I picked up Rickey Jackson's first 1994 49ers jersey (a great player for the Saints, so this was the closest I could get to a "Saints" jersey at the time). I later traded the jersey away to another dealer I saw in SCD. Shortly thereafter, I picked up a nice Marquis Grissom Expos jersey (also in 1995) to display on my wall, as he was one of the best outfielders in baseball at the time.

As I did, you would often buy items that were cool and you liked, but would have to wait forever to find certain things. With that being said, I do kinda miss the old days of getting the big typewritten lists from Smoking Pistols and Sports Warehouse.

[beavisrules]

Re: The future of collecting...

Good thread. I still have the thrill of the search Larry described for Notre Dame jerseys, as jerseys from pre-1990s and game worn ND bowl jerseys are incredibly hard to find. Also, finding quality ND alums jerseys that pre-date 2000 are still not easily obtainable either (our moderator Greg can vouch for that as well). Prior to the 1990s jerseys, the only way to get Notre Dame gamers was if the university donated the jersey for charitable auction or the players themselves sold them; otherwise, my understanding is the university donated them to local high schools and other organizations for use, which then disposed of them when they were worn out (imagine being in high school and being given Tim Brown's gamer to wear). For bowl game jerseys, the players always keep them - hence, typically you can only get them secondhand from the senior players selling them to pawn shops or ebay or such, or if the player turned the jersey back in to the athletic department for some reason. Also, the number of fake ND bowl game jerseys is roughly 50% of what you see for sale, so you absolutely have to do your homework. To put it in perspective, I think it has been two years now since I have seen a truly legit ND bowl game jersey for sale (2003 Gator Bowl jersey) - I have not seen a single one available since then other than fakes. The thrill of the search continues!

[solarlottry]

Re: The future of collecting...

"My first GU purchase happened in 1995, when I picked up Rickey Jackson's first 1994 49ers jersey (a great player for the Saints, so this was the closest I could get to a "Saints" jersey at the time). I later traded the jersey away to another dealer I saw in SCD." quote from Commando.

I may have had that shirt at one point! I too used to wait at the mailbox for the SCD! I remember buying my first 49er gamers via an SCD auction where no one else bid and I won John Taylor and Brent Jones gamers for 200$ each.

Times have changed. Back then collecting and connecting was usually via word of mouth, luck, SCD or card shows. I think the internet has opened things up in such a way where collectors of the same player/team can connect and sell/trade way more easily than back then. Prices are different of course but back then gas was 1$ a gallon so everything has gone up. Also remember that their were still companies selling game used like MOS then that are similar to the JOs of today.

One thing that has been a constant is fakes!!! That will never change. I look thru old auction catalogs all the time. I have every GF catalog plus many Mastro and a few others and the same old fake Montana shirts were for sale back then as they are today. The internet has helped the collector avoid buying such fakes though as places such as this forum are on the junk shirts so quickly whereas years ago there was no method to mass distribute such valuable information.

I think game used collecting still can be quite fun albeit expensive. I meet other NFL and 49er collectors all the time and reconnect with people I have not heard from in years. It is also quite satisfying to finally get that shirt you have been looking for! The "HUNT" still is an important part of the hobby it is just done in a different manner than back in the early 90s.

Always buying 49ers gamers and ANY 1994 49er gamer. Always paying a finders fee!
Paul
garciajones@yahoo.com

[frikativ54]

Re: The future of collecting...

I hardly pine for the "glory days" of collecting. I would not like to go back to the times where friendships determined what I could and couldn't have, where a few people capitalized upon the market and bought items the rest of us didn't have access to, and where you had to trust some mystery clubhouse source.

Now, I consider myself to be lucky. I am email lists that offer items I could have only previously dreamed of; I can have instant access to MLB.com Auctions where I can buy an item I am virtually assured is authentic. I can talk with other collectors halfway across the country and buy, trade, and sell with them.

If only there were the kind of access to game used collectibles back when I was growing up. It seems that the only people who want to go back to the good old days are those who had connections, those who had a good amount of income, and those who were in the know. I'm glad we don't have to return to those times.

[geoff]

Re: The future of collecting...

I started collecting game used and worn items in late 2005 and have a very nice collection going as some of the members have seen.I have met many nice people on this site that are willing to help me get my collection going and keep it going.Back in 2005 it was hard to find items I thought that I wanted but during those years since you can find almost just about anything but it might cost you a bunch but you can find what you want.I do love it how teams now sell there game used items.And I love the fanfest concept that sells game used and worn for pretty cheap.I guess it depends what team though on the fanfests.I can only hope some of the teams that sell there stuff in the team stores do lower there prices in years to come and relize alot of people collect and really are not rich but just want to be part of the game and the closet most of us will ever get is collecting our favorite players items and love doing it.

[34swtns]

Re: The future of collecting...

I've actually been having a similar discussion with Matt from the Bears thread lately. While it's nice that it's been much easier to obtain jerseys from our favorite team these last few years one can't help but wonder what it's doing to the market and the implications for the future.
Just a few years ago if you wanted a Lance Briggs jersey you put out feelers to other collectors, team sources and websites like Jim Yakel's in hopes that one might become available and hope you might have a shot at it when it does.
Those days are over.

Now you simply click on whichever Briggs jersey from whichever season you might like and assuming you have the crazy money that's being charged for it, it can be yours. It makes me wonder how this era will be looked upon by future collectors and how the values of the jerseys from the present day will be affected by that perception.

I'm quite sure that 10-20 years down the road Bears jerseys from the present day will be referred to as being from "the JO era" or some such title. I can also imagine that their resale value will be diminished because of that label. After all, how valuable will a 2006-20?? Lance Briggs jersey be in 20 years when it's common knowledge that there are a couple of dozen or more of them out there?

Back in 2004 when I bought my first Urlacher gamer (for $600 no less) it was good to know that I had potentially 1 of just a couple of his jerseys that had hit the market up until that time. With the Bears' agreement with Game Exclusives and then JO Sports, that number has risen substantially. And while Urlacher gear still commands a premium, JO gets top dollar for their new Urlacher items each season but those of us in the secondary market know the true value of his stuff and it's about half of what JO gets for it with the initial sale. That is directly attributable to the number of his gamers that have been and will be on the market. Quite a few, in fact.
When I first started collecting, invariably when I asked about resale value on an item, I would get the standard "buy what you like, not for resale" response from the oldtimers of the hobby. I never understood how anyone could think that way. After all, who wants to pay big money for things that don't acrue in value?
Nowdays that old saying makes more sense than ever.

I believe that the jerseys we're buying now, unless they were worn by superstars like Montana, Elway, Manning, Brady, etc. will not retain much of their original asking price at all due to the sheer numbers of them that are out there. In short, what is now a blessing in the ease with which we can obtain these items will surely be a curse upon their future value.

So, as a wiseman once said, "collect what you like, not for resale".

[mad87man]

Re: The future of collecting...

It is very hard to tell. Yes it might hurt the market a little bit, it might also help b/c we will know more authenticity on things. Also high priced players will always go up in value and be harder to get. Look at Sanchez for example ( i am using him b.c i like the jets). Currently his stuff is in high demand and pretty high priced. If he won a super bowl his stuff would go threw the roof imo. Also if you want stuff that is harder to get and will be worth a little more go for rookie year things and take a chance on them, really that's what it is all about is chance. there is a chance it will be worth more a chance it will remain the same, and a chance its less.

[gingi79]

Re: The future of collecting...

Larry,

While I think these insights are factual, they are my opinions. The hobby as I see it, is starting a new phase with 4 very distinct parts.

- Teams once either horded their game used or made deals with a Milt Byron or Murf Denny to allow fans the opportunity to obtain gamers at reasonable prices. Those days are long gone. Teams now suffer from delusions of grandeur, pricing jerseys well above what average fans can afford.

- Somehow the terms integrity and authenticity now come with price tag. Some folks point to eBay and all of the dealers and con men that still exist. They'll say the premium increase is worth it for the piece of mind. I say they are only using euphemistic language to price gouge and profiteer by praying on fear.

- Collectors once knew their items would retain value. Buying a jersey this season came with the knowledge you could sell it for the same price and in most cases for more money, 2 years later. With the exception of one of my jerseys, I'd lose money on every item I have if I sold them today. I'd argue many of us on this board are in a very similar boat.

- I think this hobby will follow the early 90's baseball card fad. Just like 50's Topps still hold value, so too would jerseys from before 2000. I wonder whether the overinflated price bubble on modern material will pop and allow average fans the opportunity to finally obtain their favorite players jersey? The hobby would then return to a rational price structure for average fans and buying a jersey for $300 today could actually be resold next year for more than $100.

[staindsox]

Re: The future of collecting...

I think this hobby will follow the early 90's baseball card fad. Just like 50's Topps still hold value, so too would jerseys from before 2000.

This is exactly correct. Anyone who collected through the card bubble can see how this exactly parallels what is happening with game used right now. The bubble burst because of overproduction, which is exactly what they are doing with gamers now. How many bats and jerseys do superstars now use a year? How many more a year are entering the market? This bubble is guaranteed to burst at some point in the near future too, period.

[jppopma]

Re: The future of collecting...

Larry is spot on with missing the old days of collecting. Perfect timing as I was just today doing some research for player's numbers in some 15 year old Sports Warehouse catalogs.

To me, the thrill of the hunt and enjoying the homework were some of the best times. While many people hide behind the computer, I will say that there are alot of friendships to be made.

The biggest problem that I encounter with the ease of acquiring jerseys is that I buy way too much JUNK! Back in the day you didn't have many choices (nor money in my cases) and had to pick and choose just what jerseys you were really interested in. These days, I often find myself picking up "deals" or other things that really don't fit into a specific collecting need. Sadly, there are times where I find myself passing on jerseys that I really do like just because it is not as much of a bargain.

I wonder what the newbies think when they hear stories of collecting before the days of the internet, before ebay, when you actually had to call auction houses, before LOA's, and when people never even thought of photo matches.

[Number13]

Re: The future of collecting...

I'm a newbie to game used, but completely understand and agree with what happened in the 90s. I was a teenager in the 80s and remembered how much fun it was collecting and going to shows and trying to find items. I stopped collecting cards completely in about 92 because of the overproduction of cards. I stopped just when inserts were becoming popular and things were more about the bottom line than just collecting. Being older, and hoping a little wiser, I think that I can enjoy collecting game used. One thing I learned from the past was that if I want to enjoy collecting I need to have a niche and stick to it. I found myself buying way too much junk back in the 80s. I'm hoping that just collecting GU #13 will bring the joy I once had when I was a bit younger. Technology has taken away some of the hunt, but, like this forum, it brings more people together across the county. Something that was much harder to do back then. I've only been on here a couple days and it is great to see that people still collect to have fun and not just for money.

[cohibasmoker]

Re: The future of collecting...

- Supply and demand;

- Economy; and,

- Age

Supply and Demand - Back in the day, game worn/used items were far and few. Today, "gamers" are all over the place.

Economy - Unlike our government, most of us have realized that we cannot afford to spend what we don't have then look to others for a "bailout". Most of use have learned that if the economy tanks, things get tight. We are working more hours and have less money to spend on luxury items like sports memorabilia. Before we go out and spend big money on an item, we have to think about what the future holds.

Age - I am 57 years old. Back in the day when we were kids, we could NOT even afford to buy items from the "concession" stands. A cap for $2.50 was way out of our price range. As we got older, got jobs and made a few bucks, we started to acquire items we couldn't afford as kids. The 1980's is a prime example - most of us can remember the "MAJOR" cards shows that seemed to be every weekend. Shows may not be the correct word - most shows were actually "EVENTS". Whether it was called a "show" or "event", it was a time to get out and meet and greet other hobby collectors. Today, we have eBay. To prove my point, the majority of guys I knew are out of the hobby for various reasons and I can't say how much longer I'll be in the hobby. With a large segment of baby boomers dropping out of the hobby, a large block of revenue is going with them.

With a lot of the baby boomers out of the market, its now time for the next generation to drive the market. Attitudes have changed - yes we do enjoy sports but with the rise of the internet, computer games, sports scandals and iPhones, attitudes have changed. Add-in the scars from our current economy and game used stuff all over the place, only time will tell.

Just some opinions,

Jim

flaa1a@comcast.net