Bats that don't match factory records

[Birdbats]

Jim and Mike,

During the past couple of weeks, I've seen two bats on eBay that are not consistent with factory records. There was the George Brett hickory R79 (no record of R79 orders or of hickory finishes for Brett) and now there's the Willie McGee S207 (no record of S207 orders for Willie). Clearly, these bats were manufactured by H&B -- they're not fake. So, why do we see bats that do not exist on factory records?

Is it because someone simply forgot to record the order?

Is it because another player is ordering a teammate's bat because he believes the "star" player gets bats with superior wood?

Are their other explanations?

Also, regarding the issue of players ordering bats of teammates, I understand this used to happen a great deal. A few years back, I helped a former player sell his collection, which included three Willie Mays bats -- but all had the player's number on the knob, not Willie's. He said he ordered Willie's G69L model for himself because he was sure Willie's bats were made from the best wood. I think many collectors assume that only the player himself (via the equipment manager) can order his own bats. Can you give us some insight into how one player can order another player's bats... and how this is handled/recorded on the shipping records?

This is a topic about which I've always been curious; the Brett and McGee bats simply make it topical. Thanks!

Jeff

http://www.birdbats.com

[earlywynnfan]

Re: Bats that don't match factory records

I asked essentially the same Q of Dave Bushing long ago, even before SCDA was started. How do you view a bat that fits all a player's specs (length and weight fall under their normal ranges, proper knob, pro wood grain, etc.) but isn't on their LV records? (note, i'm not talking about an index bat that is 2" shorter than a player's most common model.) He said he'd have to view it as legit until proven otherwise. I don't know if his thoughts have changed in the last few years, but what he said always stuck with me.

I think as a hobby we are almost relying too much on factory records, and I plead guilty to doing this, too. Once again, I think it all goes back to buying what you are comfortable with.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

[JimCaravello]

Re: Bats that don't match factory records

Hi Jeff - these are great questions. I actually saw the Brett bat you mentioned on ebay. Let me answer your questions in the order you posted them:

( 1 ) Why do we see bats in the market that do not exist on factory records? There are several explanations for this, as follows: ( a ) the bat you see and the order it was from was not recorded in the records - provenance and use attributes would be important to ascertain that a player actually used that bat. For instance, if the Brett bat was 32", there's a high likelihood that Brett never ordered the bat and it was not omitted from his records, ( b ) the bat was ordered by another player, ( c ) the bat was ordered by the team - or another team ( team indexed bat ), ( d ) the bat is a promotional bat that was never recorded in factory records. There also may be other possibilites such as the bat may be a store model bat which may have slipped out of the factory.

( 2 ) Did someone forget to record the order? Yes - as mentioned above, this is a possibility, but use, provenance, length and weight would in comparison to other orders be important to determine if it really was the player's bat that he used.

( 3 ) Are other player's ordering teammate's bats because he believes the "star" player gets bats with superiod wood? In many instances, players have ordered bats that they have given to other players to use and players have also ordered bats of different players as evidenced by reviewing the Louisville Slugger records. You are correct in saying that many collector's assume that only the player himself can order his own bats. A great example of this is Bobby Richardson - you know why you see very few of his bats in the market? The reason is that early in his career, he would order Nellie Fox signature model bats ( Fox didn't even play on the same team ) as opposed to his own signature model bat. The Louisville Slugger records are full of examples of this, especially in the 30's and 40's as model numbers were just being created and many player's ordered bats of the stars that they used and liked.

I personally prefer my bats to ( 1 ) match factory records and ( 2 ) have use attributes and characteristics that tie the bat to the player. I will pay more for that and I always get more when I go to sell the bat. Ken - I diagree with you a little, in the context that I sleep better knowing that my bat has the player's number on the knob, matches records, has the use on the correct side of the barrel, the tar matches up to known examples and photos, etc.

Great post - let me know if you have any other questions. Jim

[Birdbats]

Re: Bats that don't match factory records

Thanks for the detailed response, Jim.

I didn't include team index bats as an option in my question because, I assumed, index bats were typically the same model used by the player, but a different length and/or weight. For example, if a player generally used a T85, then any team orders with that player's name also would be T85 -- but potentially with different specs. Is that assumption off base?

The Brett and McGee bats struck me as odd because neither model ever was ordered for the player. Wouldn't it be unusual for a team to order bats with Brett's name, but not a model or finish he ever used? Same with McGee -- seems strange an equipment manager would say, "We need an order of S207 bats... I think I'll ask them to burn in Willie McGee's name."

I know index bats have been discussed here before, but I still find them confusing. From your response, it sounds like any team could order any model bat with any player's name burned in the barrel. True?

Thanks for your help!

Jeff

http://www.birdbats.com

[earlywynnfan]

Re: Bats that don't match factory records

Jim, actually I don't think you are disagreeing with me, I sleep better knowing all that, too. It's just that I wonder if some rely too much on the factory records; I know I've ignored bats that didn't perfectly match the records, even though everything else about it was correct.

For example, suppose this Brett bat was perfect in every way except that the model number doesn't match any records. (I didn't really pay attention to that particular bat, so I'm playing hypothetical). How do we rate it compared to a Brett bat that matches perfectly but has another player's knob (which I would stay away from.) Or compare it to a bat that matches records, has the correct number, but absolutely no pine tar? Or shows scoring on the handle and perhaps Brett never did that? I sleep best knowing ALL attributes are there, too, but I was wondering out loud which ones need to match to at least get us in a comfortable zone.

Am I being clear, or just rambling here?? It's hard to tell sometimes!

Perhaps this would make a good poll? "Rank the attributes necessary before you'd buy a Game Used bat"

Ken

[JimCaravello]

Re: Bats that don't match factory records

Hi Jeff - a couple of comments - Your assumption of team indexed bats is generally true, but there are examples of team index bats that do match the player's actual specs - not in great numbers - but they are out there.

Also - do you remember my original blog on Team Index Bats when I referred to the Aldo Caravello ordering example where he ordered Joe Dimaggio bats in similar length and weight to Joe?

Thus - I think it's quite possible that a team and or another player can order a bat of a player that matches the player's ordering specs.......now keep in mind, most of this occurred prior to the 70's and to a great extent, prior to the 60's. You see very few post 60's and 70's records where players ordered other players bats. Team indexed bats were still being ordered - but the records clearly show as we move into the 70's call it - that players did not really order other player's models. Lousiville had grown dramatically and had a staff to accomodate the major leagues and take orders from anyone who wanted bats.

Regarding the Brett - I think that's a promotional bat myself. I haven't seen the Mcgee and will take a look at that. Let me know if you have any other questions. Thanks, Jim

[JimCaravello]

Re: Bats that don't match factory records

Ken - great questions. I think you nailed it earlier when you said " what are you comfortable with". That is the key. There is not a right answer here - you and I like to sleep good at night, so we both rely heavily on the records. Others may take a different stance - or I might take a different stance if there is some provenance associated with the item that I feel really good about.

Here's the necessary items for me to buy a bat

( 1 ) has to match factory records - if it doesn't, I pass.....
( 2 ) has to have player attributes / provenance - if not, I pass......
( 3 ) has to have great use
( 4 ) If cracked, it can't be obtrusive or heavily damaged - can't have any pieces missing
( 5 ) if incorrect number is on the knob - I pass......
( 6 ) I don't buy team indexed bats - what the heck is that anyway???? What are you buying? I love the expression "buy a team indexed bat of a HOF player and save money". Well - for my money, I'd rather put it into a factory documented gamer.........

[earlywynnfan]

Re: Bats that don't match factory records

I absolutely stay away from index bats, too. I also won't buy a bat with the wrong number, and I'm almost always staying away from blacked out knobs.

I usually look for great use, although this isn't a definite for me; for example, i have a gary sheffield bat that from the front shows virtually no use, but has 3 really strong ball knocks on the back; i know it's not the most valuable of his bats, but it displays really cool.

Ken

PS, sorry to hijack the thread!!

[JimCaravello]

Re: Bats that don't match factory records

Hijacking is allowed!! Great posts!!

[Vintagedeputy]

Re: Bats that don't match factory records

I have a 77-79 LS Bill Madlock bat that's been discussed here before. LS records show that Madlock ordered C235 and C263 bats. Mine is a model number C253. The bat seems to match Madlock characteristics in all other respects.

A LS rep said that "I guess the brander that day transposed the numbers".

[JimCaravello]

Re: Bats that don't match factory records

Vintagedeputy - great example of real life events that have occured at the factory. I have seen similar examples myself of mis- branding of model numbers. I can live with that - its the M110 model bat that I see in the market that doesn't match factory records and the player has ordered only R161 models during their career that really bothers me...........

[jboosted92]

Re: Bats that don't match factory records

Ken - great questions. I think you nailed it earlier when you said " what are you comfortable with". That is the key. There is not a right answer here - you and I like to sleep good at night, so we both rely heavily on the records. Others may take a different stance - or I might take a different stance if there is some provenance associated with the item that I feel really good about.

Here's the necessary items for me to buy a bat

( 1 ) has to match factory records - if it doesn't, I pass.....
( 2 ) has to have player attributes / provenance - if not, I pass......
( 3 ) has to have great use
( 4 ) If cracked, it can't be obtrusive or heavily damaged - can't have any pieces missing
( 5 ) if incorrect number is on the knob - I pass......
( 6 ) I don't buy team indexed bats - what the heck is that anyway???? What are you buying? I love the expression "buy a team indexed bat of a HOF player and save money". Well - for my money, I'd rather put it into a factory documented gamer.........

I think for pre-model # bats, number (2) is key. For older bats, I dont put alot of "weight" (no-pun intended) into the weight matching of factory records. In fact, to my knowledge, a bat can lose alot of weight due to deadwood, use, chipping...yada yada

now dont get me wrong, im not buying a 29 ounce Ruth bat, but a 1921-31 35 inch 36 ounce Ruth bat with some deadwood but showing "ruth-characteristics" is better than a 35 inch 42 ounce with no-or minimal characteristics...

like a Brett bat with Pine Tar, or a Cobb bat with Black-Spiral Tape...

just minimums that should have Heavier weight.....

[MSpecht]

Re: Bats that don't match factory records

Hi Jeff and Ken--

I agree with Jim's responses, and have a few random observations:

Ny preference , also, is bats that match factory shipping records for the individual player, when such records exist. Fortunately, H & B records have been obtained of every Hall of Famer, hundreds of non- Hall of Fame 'star' players, and many lesser players. The HOF players and the 'star' players are, in general, the bats that are going to cost a significant amount of money, which basically translates into "I don't want to make a mistake with these bats." If a bat is identified as a professional model bat, yet doesn't match the records, there are several possible reasons:

1) The most logical explanation is that the bat was a team ordered, or team index bat, ordered by the team for use by any player, Major or Minor League, in the organization. These bats were generally ordered in the most popular models, upwards of 100 to 500 at a time, and requested to have players on the team's signatures on the bats (assuming those players had existing endorsement contracts with H & B.). Many times the 'popular models' had a player's name attached as it was the player's Pro Stock model. (i.e. Mantle K55 bats -- there are many more in existence than he actually ordered as it was not his 'favored' model throughoput his career, but was his Pro Stock model.) These team index bats are professional model bats and often exhibit various amounts of professional use. The problem is that the use is often unable to be directly attributed to a specific player. As Jim mentioned above, you have to look very close at the use characteristics, and many times that is not definitive toward any specific player.

2) There are instances of players ordering bats stamped with other players names. In most cases, however, those orders are going to be recorded in the ordering player's factory records. In Bobby Richardson's case, as noted above, he ordered bats throughout his career with the signatures of other players stamped on the barrel label, including Nellie Fox, Don Mueller, Bob Cerv, and, in particular, Wally Moses. Willie Stargell often had Gene freese's signature stamped on bats he ordered for his use. All of these orders are contained Richardson's and Stargell's personal factory records (in the examples above), not in the records of Fox, Cerv, etc.

On the flip side, however, players who thought another player would get preferential treatment (better quality wood) from the manufacturer, would generally have that teammate order a specific model/length/weight from H & B.. This scenario is seen in the records when there are one or two orders for, say, Johnny Bench, of a model he never used before or after, and in dimensions that were atypical of his documented ordering pattern throughgout his career. What's the scenario here? Either Bench was trying out a new model/length/weight and ultimately didn't like it, or a teammate asked Bench to order the bats as if Bench were ordering the bats for his (Bench's) personal use and getting "preferential Bench treatment" in terms of quality. Either scenario is possible, so it comes down to which scenario is most comfortable to you as a collector. Personally, if the 'random model' also differs significantly from the player's pattern in length and weight, I believe it is unlikely that he ordered it for himself. This is also seen frequently in the records of many Latin American players who ordered a wide variety of assorted models and lengths/weights at the end of the season, and sent them to various youth leagues in their native countries.

3) Are there holes in the records? The answer varies depending on which of the four basic "records" periods you are discussing. Pre- 1920, there are very few records that have surfaced,with various amounts of information beyond, for example, Roger Bresnahan's "His Old Model" being dated 5/20/1911 and indexed at 34 inches.

From 1920 to 1929, many more records exist, most of which contain specific information regarding models, lengths, and weights. The records are considered to be incomplete, but they often provide sufficient information with which to form logical, reasoned opinions regarding a player's preferences and ordering patterns.

From 1930 to 1981, the use of record cards for individual players recorded orders shipped to players for their use, and team records recorded the shipments of team ordered bats for organizational use. These records are much more complete than either of the two preceding types of records, but most authenticators believe that holes in these records also exist. More liberal authenticators believe that many holes exist in these records than do more conservative authenticators.

From 1981 to the present day, records are computerized, and include not only orders shipped to the player for his professional use, but also orders shipped to a team for promotional purposes, various marketing companies, other .entities within baseball, etc. The information found in these records is often the most complete and include more information than the previous records

As always, the key is do your own research, ask questions of those who may have additional resources available, and determine your own personal comfort level. There are deals out there waiting to be found. The best purchases I have seen recently were a perfect factory matched Ralph Kiner bat that went to a forum member within the last two weeks for under $ 500 ( I didn't keep up with the deadline as I automatically figured it would be at least a $3,000 bat), and a factory matched Stan Musial late career bat that was a perfect factory match that went for $ 2,500 a couple days ago (I was either sniped or just plain out-bid.) In the "several thousand dollar plus" price range, I would not play unless the bat matched factory records (if available.) I did pick up a Bobby Bonilla bat yesterday that I don't know if it matches records or not, but since it only cost $5, I am comfortable, as it is a professional model bat.

Finally, when you are considering the purchase of an item, be sure to read AND UNDERSTAND any LOA or Cert that comes with it. For example, there are several Adirondack "D" series bats currently in Ebay auction that have been cert'ed, but when you read the LOA carefully, it states that there is no evidence of Adirondack "D" series bats being used professionally. Unfortunately, there is no mention of these certs in the auctions, and you have to do some hunting to find out the information. For that kind of money, however, the hunt is worth it.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

[Birdbats]

Re: Bats that don't match factory records

Mike,

Great information... very informative. Thanks so much!

Jeff

http://www.birdbats.com

[sammy]

Re: Bats that don't match factory records

How about a pro bat that has all the characteristics via length, weight, type of wood, etc., as a well documented professional game bat, but for some reason there is no model number on the knob.

This is a bat from the 1950s-60s so technically there should be a model number stamped on the knob.

Seen any of these?

I asked Troy at MEARS/SCDA once about this and he said a bat like that basically slipped through quality control, and was likely counted in the bat order shipment records for a particular model.