6 charged with fraud

[cubbs1232]

[quote=Mulligans;272196]
I have owned my business for many years and have been victim to many law suits and inquiries (including the federal government)........it's just the norm for a business owner and I have yet to be convicted of any criminal offense?
quote]


THIS MIGHT BE ONE OF THE MOST IGNORANT STATEMENTS I HAVE EVER READ. I HOPE YOU WERENT BEING SERIOUS. IF SO YOU MIGHT WANT TO REEVALUATE YOUR BUSINESS PRACTICE.

[Mulligans]

My point is that the larger your Company is the more legal issues that you will face.....and that's just a fact.....I was trying to reemphasize the need not to over react and pound people until all of the circumstances are revealed and decisions are rendered....all the bashing just appears to be a bit over reactive at this stage?

[trsent]

My point is that the larger your Company is the more legal issues that you will face.....and that's just a fact.....I was trying to reemphasize the need not to over react and pound people until all of the circumstances are revealed and decisions are rendered....all the bashing just appears to be a bit over reactive at this stage?

Welcome to The Game Used Forum.

[short84]

As someone who has purchased 7 jerseys from JO, 2 of which were misrepresented and someone who has watched their auctions with hidden mystery bids and hidden mystery reserve prices, I can not "forgive" or overlook their dishonest business practices as easily as others on this forum. The fact that Rob resigned (I did most of my transactions through him) speaks loudly. My trust in this company has been shaken. This company, in my opinion, needs to become more transparent (especially their auctions) and needs to work at regaining the trust of their customers. I work hard for my money and when I spend it, I want to feel good about my purchases. My goodness, we are talking about purposely changing the appearance of items in order to make a greater financial gain -- not simply putting the wrong COA with an item. Purposely changing the appearance of an item requires forethought -- this wasn't done on a whim -- this was done with the intent to make more money. This is fraud which equals dishonesty which is the result of greed at the expense of their customers. In my opinion, this company is going to have to prove to me, the customer, they are willing to go the extra mile to regain my trust. Just my opinion. :) Have a great day gentlemen!

[nycpropain]

My point is that the larger your Company is the more legal issues that you will face.....and that's just a fact.....I was trying to reemphasize the need not to over react and pound people until all of the circumstances are revealed and decisions are rendered....all the bashing just appears to be a bit over reactive at this stage?

seriously? Thats beyond BS. I own an autograph signing company for 20 years now. I have never had the FBI knock on my door because of forgeries I have sold not to mention never had ONE lawsuit brought upon me. So not sure what you are basing this opinion on.

I dont know which is more disturbing at this point the fact that this went down OR that people who have items from them feel the need to blindly defend this mess.

[SaintsGeaux]

seriously? Thats beyond BS. I own an autograph signing company for 20 years now. I have never had the FBI knock on my door because of forgeries I have sold not to mention never had ONE lawsuit brought upon me. So not sure what you are basing this opinion on.

I dont know which is more disturbing at this point the fact that this went down OR that people who have items from them feel the need to blindly defend this mess.

Glad to see a voice of reason. We live in a litigious society with an abundance of lawyers that make their living by suing people. Those type of lawsuits for torts and civil suits are far different from the FBI knocking on your door and charges of FRAUD.

When your business is all about product integrity and that integrity is called into question, what do you have left? Pockets full of money? Take that to your grave. It takes a lifetime to build a reputation and a sometimes a moment to tarnish it.

This isn't a moment we are discussing here. The charges are clear. This isn't a singular moment rather a long established pattern vanishing the integrity of all aspects of their business.

Fool me once shame on you, Short84 - fool me twice shame on me.

[mickeymbz]

not defending nor hangin JO... but how come we never hear about the endless supplies of Naimith,Montana,Kareems, Wilkes, Paytons,OJ,Birds,95/96 jordans and to some extent Sayers that are always poppin up on GFC??? how come ive heard nothin but "if its from GFC it must.... or will it has a GFC loa". just sayin......

[nickacs]

The fact that Rob resigned (I did most of my transactions through him) speaks loudly.

FYI, to all those that have mentioned Rob resigned, this has nothing to do with this FBI case, as he recently took a managerial position at Lids. Coincidence? Maybe, but in talking with the "other" Rob the other day, this is what he told me.

Funny, I'm quite surprised the Mods here haven't locked this thread down by the 300th post..LOL... Yes, as an owner of 2 game used JO jerseys from last season, this does "shake" me a little, but as others said, I can photomatch both jerseys to video/Getty images with no problem.

I, as well as everyone, look forward to seeing the actual "incidents" of this case and the outcome. But in the meantime, I think all the back/forth accusations/personal attacks (about 10 pages back!) is uncalled for and just wasting forum space :)

I do think this is a great thing the FBI/law enforcement is doing as whole to help our hobby. I wish this happened about 15yrs or so ago with other SCD/other dealers that ripped me off knowingly!

Chompin' back on some popcorn too... LOL

[MarkakisMania]

not defending nor hangin JO... but how come we never hear about the endless supplies of Naimith,Montana,Kareems, Wilkes, Paytons,OJ,Birds,95/96 jordans and to some extent Sayers that are always poppin up on GFC??? how come ive heard nothin but "if its from GFC it must.... or will it has a GFC loa". just sayin......


I for one have been questioning the blind lovefest directed toward GFC for years. Their owner Rich Russek is an ex con who has been known to shovel complete crap through his auctions for years. After that ridiculous episode on People's court 6 years ago where Russek was taken to the woodshed over the Ripken jersey from his auction, it was just another in a long line of bad examples that show just what kind of guy is running the show over there. I see people all the time post on here if it is coming from GFC it has got to be above reproach. While GFC does have some good products and has sold unquestioned items of authenticity, they have also shoveled their fair share of crap through this business over the years.

I would not honestly even put them in the top five auction houses in terms of authentic unquestioned items. I have houses like REA, Lelands, Huggins and Scott, Hunt, and Heritage ahead of them based on those companies willingness to address bad stuff if and when it put in their auctions. I have been very successful in contacting those above mentioned companies in the past and if you can show them something is bad it has been pulled in my experience. The same cannot be said for GFC.

As mentioned in a prior post this is just the latest bomb to drop after Jensen was taken down at the National two months ago and hopefully not the last. Now that Steve Jensen was taken down and now JO and Brad Wells formally of Historic Auctions which was a sham of a company, Guys like Russek, Vic Moreno, Lou Lampson, Bricoe, Coaches Corner won't be too far behind at least one can only hope. Some of these guys have been running amuck in this hobby for decades and they continue to make it a laughing stock all the way to the bank.

There is good and bad in this hobby but what does not help is when the bad guys get caught with their hand in the till doing some really dirty business and people come on here and literally say, I don't care what they did I am going to still support them. No wonder these companies continue to thrive and stay in business. Collectors are shown repeated patterns of abuse and yet they continue to give business to these companies and then we question why this industry does not get cleaned up.

It is really just very pathetic.

Jeb

[schubert1970]

I find it funny that anyone who has puchased a JO jersey has the need to tell everyone that their stuff is fine cause they photo matched it. It's like some deceleration to let themselves know their items ore ok. If your that confident about your items, remove anything and everything from the jersey that has JO on it.

[MarkakisMania]

What is also funny to me is that three other names not really getting any press on this or at least any play on this forum prove the point on here to a tee of once a criminal always a criminal.

Bernie Gernay, Brad Wells and Mitch Schumaker have all been caught in the past either criminally or on this forum and elsewhere doing illegal acts in this business. I remember countless threads about Brad Wells at ASI and then later Historic that simply shredded that man on his horrible business practices as well as Bernie and Mitch. Just do some searches on old threads going back 4 - 6 years and you will find them. There were countless defenders that came running to these guys aid and now crickets are chirping. Nobody mentions how these guys were all given second chances and now they are all being arrested for continued illegal activity. Based on these few examples, I guess we should just give JO and every other company and individual the benefit of the doubt. As I mentioned earlier, history has shown us repeatedly that these individuals and companies time after time are caught red handed and yet are given chance after chance by forum members and others and then somehow it comes as some giant shock when they are caught five years later doing the same or similar dirty business.

I just find it kind of funny that it seems as long as some collectors can photo match their items they seem fine with the fact that this company apparently was doctoring other items to appear real and selling them as such. That is just stupidty on every level. How can you defend that type of business practice. Again, it is what keeps these criminals in business. While we don't know the specifics here, I am going to tend to agree with the Attorney Legal Eagle here and his summary of this situation. Something is bad enough that their should be massive concern. Whatever we find out, I find it alarming that if I am reading this correctly, many collectors who have done business with this company in the past are ready to simply look past all of this as long as they can photo match items going forward.

Please correct me if I am wrong but this is my take. If JO is definitively found guilty or pleads out to doctoring jersey's to make them game used and selling items as game used that they definitively knew were not, those of you who are singing their praises are stating that you are fine with this as long as you can continue to photo match items coming from them going forward. If I am reading this wrong then I apologize but that is exactly how it seems to read from several members.

Jeb

[gingi79]

This thread proves what I have said privately for years.

You are either a JO person or you aren't. Either you trust them and their entire inventory or you think they are corrupt and overcharge for their jerseys. Maybe a few people will change sides after this but the majority of us will stay on the same side we were 2 weeks ago.

No matter what, all this thread is doing is screaming "Are you stupid?" towards the people on the other side of your fence. You aren't going to sway anyone. No one is going to listen to you no matter how rational you think you are. No matter how clever you think you are, this thread is just making it harder for collectors to trust EACH OTHER because of how and what you posted here.

So instead of insulting each other and hurting our own reputations, maybe we should just "Move along. Nothing to see here" until more information comes out. Just a humble suggestion.....

[BostonSportsFan]

This thread proves what I have said privately for years.

You are either a JO person or you aren't. Either you trust them and their entire inventory or you think they are corrupt and overcharge for their jerseys. Maybe a few people will change sides after this but the majority of us will stay on the same side we were 2 weeks ago.

No matter what, all this thread is doing is screaming "Are you stupid?" towards the people on the other side of your fence. You aren't going to sway anyone. No one is going to listen to you no matter how rational you think you are. No matter how clever you think you are, this thread is just making it harder for collectors to trust EACH OTHER because of how and what you posted here.

So instead of insulting each other and hurting our own reputations, maybe we should just "Move along. Nothing to see here" until more information comes out. Just a humble suggestion.....


That pretty much sums this whole thread up. It would seem that people have drawn their line in the sand and nothing no matter what evidence is shown will sway people to see things differently.

That all being said, there are numerous people in life that could be shown video, photographic and DNA evidence of a person standing over a dead body and they would still dispute that a murder took place and the person holding the bloody knife is guilty.

Although we are not privy to much information to this point regarding the Federal case against the individuals named one can assume that there is enough compelling evidence that the FEDS have in their possession that they believe that they can make a case in court and obtain a guilty verdict if it comes to that.

Even if I was a JO supporter or supporter of any of these other companies or individuals mentioned to this point in the indictment, at the very, very least, until I had any additional information, I would not be blindly throwing support to any one of these companies just because I had a great relationship with one or more of their sales reps or a history of great transactions with them in the past. That same thought process can be applied to any business entity, person etc.

I don't have a dog in this fight per se and I agree both sides are piling on to the point of being a bit ridiculous.

I am just not sure at this point how anybody can be so definitively supportive of this or any company, person or entity based on any prior relationship when you know just as little about the circumstances surrounding this Federal investiagation as the people who are on the other side of the fence piling on. Perhaps we should assume innocence until their is absolute proof of guilt but if we are to understand the legal terminology that was explained by a practicing attorney Legal Eagle, then it would appear that this named individual is preparing to plead guilty to something. If you are innocent, you don't plead guilty that is fairly straight forward at least in this type of case. Other standards may apply to murder or rape etc. based on plea deals etc.

In the end, even if I am an absolutely staunch supporter of JO or Bradley Wells, Mitchell Schumaker or any of the other named defendants, I am going to be very, very careful in my defense of them as I might later regret taking such a hard line stand in support of them once all the facts come out. That can certainly work both ways but I would err on the side of caution at this point as a supporter rather than throw blind allegiance to anybody that ultimately is known only through a business deal or a dozen business deals and nothing more.

That is my take but as Mr. Baltimore Gingi suggested, we should all perhaps weigh carefully our support to either side until more facts come out.

Joe

[34swtns]

Please correct me if I am wrong but this is my take. If JO is definitively found guilty or pleads out to doctoring jersey's to make them game used and selling items as game used that they definitively knew were not, those of you who are singing their praises are stating that you are fine with this as long as you can continue to photo match items coming from them going forward.
Jeb


Yep, pretty much.
When you get a marketing contract for Bears game worn jerseys then I'll start buying from you.
No shame here, whatsoever. As long as I get what I need to expand my collection it's all water under the bridge. I do my homework, match the stuff before I buy it and it's all good. All my stuff is 100% the real deal because I made sure of that by doing the necessary legwork to insure that.
If you were dumb enough to get taken, it's on you.
I sleep like a baby, bet on that.

[MarkakisMania]

Yep, pretty much.
When you get a marketing contract for Bears game worn jerseys then I'll start buying from you.
No shame here, whatsoever. As long as I get what I need to expand my collection it's all water under the bridge. I do my homework, match the stuff before I buy it and it's all good. All my stuff is 100% the real deal because I made sure of that by doing the necessary legwork to insure that.
If you were dumb enough to get taken, it's on you.
I sleep like a baby, bet on that.


I don't know the scope of your collection beyond obviously the Bears as a team, but does that mean if you absolutely cannot achieve a photo match you don't buy an item? Just curious not even specifically referring to JO but in general? As it was pointed out on another post, it is sometimes difficult to achieve photo matches on CB's or safties or other positions that may or may not be prominently featured on tv or by photos depending for instance how many times they were thrown at in a game etc.

In the end it would appear that this type of mentality is ultimately what keeps the criminals in business however be it JO, AMI, 100% Authentic featuring Lampson, Bricoe Auctions, Crotches Corner, Rich Russek, Steve Jensen etc. As long as people buy from known criminals, they will never close their doors. Sure they sell good stuff but that is how they keep getting away with it. Mix in 5 bad pieces for every 95 good pieces or 10 bad to 90 good whatever your percentage and just keep piling up the profits while ultimately the industry and the collector suffer.

Jeb

Jeb

[BostonSportsFan]

I don't know the scope of your collection beyond obviously the Bears as a team, but does that mean if you absolutely cannot achieve a photo match you don't buy an item? Just curious not even specifically referring to JO but in general? As it was pointed out on another post, it is sometimes difficult to achieve photo matches on CB's or safties or other positions that may or may not be prominently featured on tv or by photos depending for instance how many times they were thrown at in a game etc.

In the end it would appear that this type of mentality is ultimately what keeps the criminals in business however be it JO, AMI, 100% Authentic featuring Lampson, Bricoe Auctions, Crotches Corner, Rich Russek, Steve Jensen etc. As long as people buy from known criminals, they will never close their doors. Sure they sell good stuff but that is how they keep getting away with it. Mix in 5 bad pieces for every 95 good pieces or 10 bad to 90 good whatever your percentage and just keep piling up the profits while ultimately the industry and the collector suffer.

Jeb

Jeb


Jeb, as mentioned, I would at this point give it up. Nobody is going to be swayed by this back and forth one way or the other. I think all of these points have been made on several ocassions by several posts and nothing new is being gained by any of this.

Just my opinion friend to friend.

Best

Joe

[frikativ54]

In the end it would appear that this type of mentality is ultimately what keeps the criminals in business however be it JO, AMI, 100% Authentic featuring Lampson, Bricoe Auctions, Crotches Corner, Rich Russek, Steve Jensen etc. As long as people buy from known criminals, they will never close their doors. Sure they sell good stuff but that is how they keep getting away with it. Mix in 5 bad pieces for every 95 good pieces or 10 bad to 90 good whatever your percentage and just keep piling up the profits while ultimately the industry and the collector suffer.

Jeb

Jeb

LOL! :p :D :eek:

[34swtns]

I don't know the scope of your collection beyond obviously the Bears as a team, but does that mean if you absolutely cannot achieve a photo match you don't buy an item? Just curious not even specifically referring to JO but in general?

Absolutely. That should be everyone's rule of thumb.
And if a seller can't send you detailed pics of the hits, stains and rips, don't buy from them.

No match = no purchase.

[masp3392]

Absolutely. That should be everyone's rule of thumb.
And if a seller can't send you detailed pics of the hits, stains and rips, don't buy from them.

No match = no purchase.

agreed 100%

[xpress34]

I would suggest everyone read the MASAUCTION thread that Skube has resurrected in this section...

There were a lot of people back then defending Mitch and saying maybe Mitch had changed and seen the errors of his ways, etc, etc and that he should be given a break to prove himself...

Those that brought up his past were vilified for mentioning it...

What's the old saying:

Fool me once - Shame on You.
Foll me twice - Shame on Me.

Just goes to show that tigers truly can't change their stripes...

- Smitty

The above is a post I mad EARLY in this thread referring to Mitch Schumacher...

At the risk of being slammed from either side, I am going to voice my opinion - like it or not, it is still my opinion and I am entitled to it like everyone else.

1st, I am a BASEBALL guy and I have NEVER had any dealings with JO so I have no dog in this fight.

2nd, Does that mean I should 'Shut the F&$ Up as someone else mentioned? NO. Why? Because whether I deal with this outfit or someone else, fraud and deception is BAD for our hobby period.

3rd, Those who are 'Okay with whatever JO has done as long as their stuff is okay'... That's a bit of small minded thinking and I'll explain that statement further down that might make you reconsider your position.

4th, This isn't a wait and see what JO is charged with - this is a what did they admit to doing as theirs is a CRIMINAL INFORMATION meaning they have admitted that there is enough going forward for the prosecution to make a case, so they are copping a plea to hep their cause.

Let me restate another post I made earlier in this thread for JO's website:


From JO's 'About Us' page:

About J.O. Sports Co LLC

J.O. Sports Co LLC was established in 2003 and launched its online website in 2008.

Among the many facets of game used memorabilia, J.O. Sports Co LLC specializes in NFL team and player deals. Our business model focuses on bringing legitimate game used merchandise to the collecting community.

We are honored to help bring integrity and honesty to the industry by offering authentic game used and autographed memorabilia to collectors. We have built a model that benefits the teams, the players and the fans. Our direct relationship with the teams and players sets us apart from other game used dealers and we will continue to stay focused on being a legitimate source for all of your game used needs.

With the ever-growing need for collectors to find legitimate sources of game used and autographed memorabilia, J.O. Sports Co LLC is proud to establish itself as an industry leader.

If they are pleading out to the charges stated, then the above statements are bold faced LIES and deceitful business practices.



did jo sports take a plea agreement? The article implies they may have? If you take a plea your as good as guilty.

The four charged by information with mail fraud, indicating they may have already reached a plea agreement with prosecutors, were:

BERNARD GERNAY, a resident of New Jersey, involved in the business operations of Pro Sports Investments, Inc., a New Jersey business;

BRADLEY HORNE, a South Carolina resident, involved in the business operations of Authentic Sports Memorabilia, Inc., a South Carolina business;

JARROD OLDRIDGE, a resident of Nevada, involved in business operations of JO Sports, Inc., a Nevada business; and,

MITCHELL SCHUMACHER, a resident of Wisconsin, using the trade name MS Sports.



Interesting to note:

From a law blog...

"An information is generally used when a defendant, or potential defendant, agrees that there is enough evidence to proceed with the case, thereby compelling said defendant to appear in court and enter a plea to the information, i.e. charges contained therein, just like an indictment. In agreeing to be prosecuted on an information you are waiving your right to have the case presented to a grand jury.

The advantages are that you are cooperating with the prosecutor in not making them do more work than they want to. It also can serve to keep your case a little quieter. Most courts don't publicize the filing of informations unless someone notifies the media.

The advantages to the prosecutor are many. As pointed out he/she doesn't have to prepare the case for grand jury presentation. He/she doesn't risk the failure of a bill being handed up. He/she relies on you to show up in court as promised. He/she uses the fact that you have admitted that there is evidence to prosecute as leverage to gain a favorable plea."

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times... in this industry/hobby, all you have ultimately is your reputation. Once it's tarnished, you can't just 'buff' it back up...[quote]

Now, to my comment about 'small minded thinking' and how stuff like this is bad for our hobby - even for you guys that have 'photo matched' items from JO.

So some of you are 'Okay with whatever happened' as long as your stuff is good. You can think it's up to everyone else to 'do their homework, but I would venture a guess that when you 1st got into this hobby, you didn't know much and had to learn through trial and error and talking to others. Their are more people joining this hobby all the time and each of them have to start like each of us, by learning what's going on.

So, JO does some 'magic' to make a jersey of Player X appear GU and sells it as such to newbie collector A. You think you're okay because YOUR Player X jersey is Photo Matched and you don't care if newbie collector A gets screwed. So newbie B, C, D, etc all get screwed for more of the same fake Player X jersey. All from the same source. Now, there are MULTIPLE 'GU' Player X jerseys on the market - you don't know the others are fake because the seller hasn't been busted yet. Those MULTIPLE GU jerseys mean yours is worth LESS because of the saturated market.

Now the seller gets busted and the Fakes start popping out of the woodwork. You feel comfortable that YOUR jersey is fine because of the photo match... but is it? Because of the charges on the fake jerseys, no one wants to touch your jersey with a ten foot pole, so again your jersey has lost value.

This is a LOSE-LOSE situation for the current jersey holders, but Ultimately a WIN for the hobby if it exposes and removes more fake jerseys from the hobby.

By not caring about the 'other' jerseys they 'created', you ultimately don't care about the hobby as a whole - only your own little collection - and that isn't healthy for the hobby.

When fraud, deceit and deception raise their ugly head, EVERYONE needs to be involved and concerned about calling it out and cleaning it up.

I'll give you an analogy - I use to work in Loss Prevention for Nike - base on my former profession. As a Loss Prevention agent, it was my job to prevent theft (internal and external - shop lifting) and keep our shrink down. Many stores don't care about Loss Prevention and it's bad for their patrons just like this fraud is bad for the hobby. Why? Because they pass the LOSSES onto you as a patron by raising prices by a penny here and a penny there. When we let Fraud run rampant in our hobby, we ruin the value, the trust, etc and ultimately end up paying more to verify legitimacy of the items in question.

When statements are made by members that they can afford the best and can afford the photo matching, etc and 'too bad' for those that can't - they end up sounding like elitist snobs.

Sorry for the long rant, but it's my .02 and the LAW (The U.S. Constitution) says I'm entitled to it. (oh yeah, and my Right to FREE Speech).

- Smitty

[nickacs]

So instead of insulting each other and hurting our own reputations, maybe we should just "Move along. Nothing to see here" until more information comes out. Just a humble suggestion.....

+10000...


I just find it kind of funny that it seems as long as some collectors can photo match their items they seem fine with the fact that this company apparently was doctoring other items to appear real and selling them as such. That is just stupidty on every level. How can you defend that type of business practice.


Huh? Um, actually your very ignorant. Sure, I can photomatch my 2 JO game worn jerseys, but doesn't mean I LOVE JO and am "on their side". Sure, it hurts to hear the news of them being mixed up in this fraud case and certainly do not condone any such actions. Will I be buying from them in the future? Maybe, maybe not. Do I think they "doctored" my 2 jersey with the grass/hit stains? F no! Great real. There's no way in hell anyone in the world could get the EXACT same stains/color/marks in the EXACT same spot that my jerseys are photomatched to Getty images and the original HD football games they were used in last year.

[MarkakisMania]

+10000...



Huh? Um, actually your very ignorant. Sure, I can photomatch my 2 JO game worn jerseys, but doesn't mean I LOVE JO and am "on their side". Sure, it hurts to hear the news of them being mixed up in this fraud case and certainly do not condone any such actions. Will I be buying from them in the future? Maybe, maybe not. Do I think they "doctored" my 2 jersey with the grass/hit stains? F no! Great real. There's no way in hell anyone in the world could get the EXACT same stains/color/marks in the EXACT same spot that my jerseys are photomatched to Getty images and the original HD football games they were used in last year.


If the statement did not apply to you then don't worry about it. Several posters already stated that they had zero problem with this company even if they admitted in a court of law that they doctored jersey's as long as they could photo match them for their collections they would keep buying.

How exactly I am ignorant??? I think that statement says it all. Basically screw everyone else as long as I get what I want I don't care about the ethics of the company selling the product and what they do to others or how they harm the industry. If anything is ignorant it is that mentality, not my statement.

Jeb

[MarkakisMania]

+10000...



Huh? Um, actually your very ignorant. Sure, I can photomatch my 2 JO game worn jerseys, but doesn't mean I LOVE JO and am "on their side". Sure, it hurts to hear the news of them being mixed up in this fraud case and certainly do not condone any such actions. Will I be buying from them in the future? Maybe, maybe not. Do I think they "doctored" my 2 jersey with the grass/hit stains? F no! Great real. There's no way in hell anyone in the world could get the EXACT same stains/color/marks in the EXACT same spot that my jerseys are photomatched to Getty images and the original HD football games they were used in last year.


I am also not in any way suggesting that a photo matched jersey that you or any other collector has is forged. If it is photo matched then it is photo matched. We have however seen several questionable examples on this thread of jersey's that were clearly not photo matched for whatever reason and questionable business practices by this company to say the least.

I don't believe that anyone is in any way questioning that this company has sold a number of legit jersey's. As I said before one of the oldest tricks in the book in this business is mix in 10% bad with 90% good inventory and generally you will stay in business for a long time. It has happened for years or whatever the percentage is. I am in no way questioning the legitimacy of any photomatched jersey by you or any other person who has purchased from this company at any point and time. What I am questioning is the other various problems raised by say a federal indictment and questions raised by other people who have posted on this same thread that have purchased from this company and then had issues raised and seemingly nothing done about it.

Jeb

[freddiefreeman5]

If I decide a company is willing to lie about a item and then steal from my fellow man by selling said item to them then I am done with them.

There is no maybe or maybe not in mind about a company that will harm others for a profit. That company is stained forever in my mind.

I have even less respect for someone who will do business with that company just for the sake of procuring a material object.

There was a time when children were taught about good and evil.

[xpress34]

I'm thinking we form an 'Occupy GUU' movement until we get answers on JO, Mitch and the others.... :D

[mad87man]

I am sorry but if a team sends JO let's say 20 jerseys, JO should make sure A. those 20 players played in the game and B. if everything checks out.
People say do your homework and check things before you buy them, i am sorry but when i spend over 500$ on a jersey i expect A. the company is selling me what i paid for(a game used jersey) and B. they did the work and made sure it checks out.

I am not defending JO sports or crucifying them until i get the whole story. My feeling on them is neither good or bad even though i kind of have a bad taste about the people that got taken.

[ChuckFoPrez]

I made sure of that by doing the necessary legwork to insure that.
If you were dumb enough to get taken, it's on you.
I sleep like a baby, bet on that.

*DINGDINGDING*

[jppopma]

So after all of these post, I see that there is a big split. Of course those who have purchased from JO will be more likely to support them (even if their items have been photomatched, a worthless LOA will always hurt the item).

Yet I have never purchased anything from them, so I guess I must not be allowed to "know" if they are guilty or not. I'm sure that they will all be able to explain the little mistakes to the feds and it will all be cleared up in a week...

Come to think of it, I never invested directly with Madoff......so I am not allowed to say he was guilty either.

As for Barry making a statement; I did not see that as a classless infomercial for his company. Through the darkness that this whole thing has placed on our hobby, I think it was a nice affirmation that there is still some hope out there for our jerseys and our collections.


***Sorry for all of the paragraphs...including it on one post rather than 10...not cutting and pasting and legal definitions to show my intelligence (of cutting and pasting)...using sarcasm...or hurting anybodies feelings.

[CollectGU]

thats funny as hell :D ;) hope we are'nt too "modern", this thread is way too serious

One more scuff for us, don't mess around
We just wanna see, just scuff it now,
Now it's game ready!

Party rock is in the house tonight!

....its just too heavy in here!

[ChrisCavalier]

Will we ever get THE press release or some inside insights from Mr. Cavalier?
Hello Michael,

Unfortunately, I do not have any "inside insights" on this matter. As I mentioned previously, I was told by JO Sports that they would be issuing a press release which may help answer many of the questions that are being posted here. I do not know when the release will actually take place and I am waiting to see the release just like the other members on this board.

I will say that it is my understanding that the alleged charges stem from issues prior to JO Sports starting his team deals. In fact, it is my understanding that JO started the team deals to try get legitimate merchandise directly rather than dealing with the so-called "sources" referenced in articles. That is my understanding but I will also be waiting for the press release to see if that is correct. Personally, I think it is important to let JO make any statements at this point rather than speculating like some of the other members are doing.

Notably, GUU will remain available as a forum for Jarrod to respond. Further, GUU has always stood for honesty and integrity and remains committed to doing so going forward. This is also the case with the 8D Network and 8D Auctions which I am involved with as well.

There's not much more to say at this time as we, like you, await further clarification from all involved.

Sincerely,
Chris

[legaleagle92481]

If I decide a company is willing to lie about a item and then steal from my fellow man by selling said item to them then I am done with them.

There is no maybe or maybe not in mind about a company that will harm others for a profit. That company is stained forever in my mind.

I have even less respect for someone who will do business with that company just for the sake of procuring a material object.

There was a time when children were taught about good and evil.

Well said. My thoughts exactly. I bought over a dozen jerseys directly from them or that originated from them but in the future I will buy nothing from them even if it means going without an item that I would want in my collection. I was going to make several more purchases from them before I learned about this but now that is off the table and I am taking my business elsewhere.

[legaleagle92481]

The above is a post I mad EARLY in this thread referring to Mitch Schumacher...

At the risk of being slammed from either side, I am going to voice my opinion - like it or not, it is still my opinion and I am entitled to it like everyone else.

1st, I am a BASEBALL guy and I have NEVER had any dealings with JO so I have no dog in this fight.

2nd, Does that mean I should 'Shut the F&$ Up as someone else mentioned? NO. Why? Because whether I deal with this outfit or someone else, fraud and deception is BAD for our hobby period.

3rd, Those who are 'Okay with whatever JO has done as long as their stuff is okay'... That's a bit of small minded thinking and I'll explain that statement further down that might make you reconsider your position.

4th, This isn't a wait and see what JO is charged with - this is a what did they admit to doing as theirs is a CRIMINAL INFORMATION meaning they have admitted that there is enough going forward for the prosecution to make a case, so they are copping a plea to hep their cause.

Let me restate another post I made earlier in this thread for JO's website:



If they are pleading out to the charges stated, then the above statements are bold faced LIES and deceitful business practices.



The four charged by information with mail fraud, indicating they may have already reached a plea agreement with prosecutors, were:

BERNARD GERNAY, a resident of New Jersey, involved in the business operations of Pro Sports Investments, Inc., a New Jersey business;

BRADLEY HORNE, a South Carolina resident, involved in the business operations of Authentic Sports Memorabilia, Inc., a South Carolina business;

JARROD OLDRIDGE, a resident of Nevada, involved in business operations of JO Sports, Inc., a Nevada business; and,

MITCHELL SCHUMACHER, a resident of Wisconsin, using the trade name MS Sports.



If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times... in this industry/hobby, all you have ultimately is your reputation. Once it's tarnished, you can't just 'buff' it back up...[quote]

Now, to my comment about 'small minded thinking' and how stuff like this is bad for our hobby - even for you guys that have 'photo matched' items from JO.

So some of you are 'Okay with whatever happened' as long as your stuff is good. You can think it's up to everyone else to 'do their homework, but I would venture a guess that when you 1st got into this hobby, you didn't know much and had to learn through trial and error and talking to others. Their are more people joining this hobby all the time and each of them have to start like each of us, by learning what's going on.

So, JO does some 'magic' to make a jersey of Player X appear GU and sells it as such to newbie collector A. You think you're okay because YOUR Player X jersey is Photo Matched and you don't care if newbie collector A gets screwed. So newbie B, C, D, etc all get screwed for more of the same fake Player X jersey. All from the same source. Now, there are MULTIPLE 'GU' Player X jerseys on the market - you don't know the others are fake because the seller hasn't been busted yet. Those MULTIPLE GU jerseys mean yours is worth LESS because of the saturated market.

Now the seller gets busted and the Fakes start popping out of the woodwork. You feel comfortable that YOUR jersey is fine because of the photo match... but is it? Because of the charges on the fake jerseys, no one wants to touch your jersey with a ten foot pole, so again your jersey has lost value.

This is a LOSE-LOSE situation for the current jersey holders, but Ultimately a WIN for the hobby if it exposes and removes more fake jerseys from the hobby.

By not caring about the 'other' jerseys they 'created', you ultimately don't care about the hobby as a whole - only your own little collection - and that isn't healthy for the hobby.

When fraud, deceit and deception raise their ugly head, EVERYONE needs to be involved and concerned about calling it out and cleaning it up.

I'll give you an analogy - I use to work in Loss Prevention for Nike - base on my former profession. As a Loss Prevention agent, it was my job to prevent theft (internal and external - shop lifting) and keep our shrink down. Many stores don't care about Loss Prevention and it's bad for their patrons just like this fraud is bad for the hobby. Why? Because they pass the LOSSES onto you as a patron by raising prices by a penny here and a penny there. When we let Fraud run rampant in our hobby, we ruin the value, the trust, etc and ultimately end up paying more to verify legitimacy of the items in question.

When statements are made by members that they can afford the best and can afford the photo matching, etc and 'too bad' for those that can't - they end up sounding like elitist snobs.

Sorry for the long rant, but it's my .02 and the LAW (The U.S. Constitution) says I'm entitled to it. (oh yeah, and my Right to FREE Speech).

- Smitty

Very well said Chris.

[legaleagle92481]

agreed 100%

Just curious but what do you guys do about washed jerseys or jerseys that have no distinctive markings on them. Do you have an QB or kicker jerseys? Those jerseys are known for not showing much wear as these players go through games where they never get knocked off their feet or block or otherwise come in contact with opposing players or the ground. I have QB jerseys that are completely clean in fact that would be impossible to photomatch. What about NBA jerseys? Some stars wear two jerseys a game, good luck photomatching those. Buying only what you can photomatch limits your collection.

[34swtns]

Just curious but what do you guys do about washed jerseys or jerseys that have no distinctive markings on them. Do you have an QB or kicker jerseys? Those jerseys are known for not showing much wear as these players go through games where they never get knocked off their feet or block or otherwise come in contact with opposing players or the ground. I have QB jerseys that are completely clean in fact that would be impossible to photomatch. What about NBA jerseys? Some stars wear two jerseys a game, good luck photomatching those. Buying only what you can photomatch limits your collection.

Easy......don't buy 'em.

I'll say it again...........no match = no buy. Very simple.

And yes it does "limit my collection". It keeps my collection free of the crap that some uneducated schmuck might buy on a gamble.
I only "gamble" on a sure thing.

[masp3392]

Just curious but what do you guys do about washed jerseys or jerseys that have no distinctive markings on them. Do you have an QB or kicker jerseys? Those jerseys are known for not showing much wear as these players go through games where they never get knocked off their feet or block or otherwise come in contact with opposing players or the ground. I have QB jerseys that are completely clean in fact that would be impossible to photomatch. What about NBA jerseys? Some stars wear two jerseys a game, good luck photomatching those. Buying only what you can photomatch limits your collection.

exactly, like what 34swtns said, if i cant photomatch it, or if the jersey is in "question" as to wether or not its actually game used, or if i cant photomatch it. I simply bite the bullet and dont buy it!

I understand some of the points from other posters stating that if an item costs that much you would expect the company to have already done the homework in matching it, making sure its compatible with the dates expressed ... etc. But regardless of all that is it up to you, to make sure what your buying is legit regardless of price. Yes you go on reputation but even if JO was absolutely as clean as a whistle, I wouldnt go based of reputation, i would still do my homework as a safety net just in case.

[nycpropain]

Its great to know the scam took place before JO's creation. Still dont change a thing as the person in charge was involved. Once shady always shady.

[short84]

You guys keep mentioning photomatching -- how many newbies making their first and perhaps only game used purchase knows about photomatching? I didn't when I purchased my first few jerseys. I did not know how dishonest this business is until I stumbled across this forum. How many customers that have purchased game used memorabilia do you think actually know how to photomatch an item? How many times have we had members post "photomatched" items on this forum only to have other members point out that their item is a style match and not a photomatch? It is very difficult to achieve a perfect photomatch for most items which is why customers who want to purchase a legitimate item search out game used memorabilia businesses such as JO, Steiner, Meigray and others. I did -- I started purchasing my items from Steiner and JO and I did so thinking that as professionals and experts in the business of game used memorabilia I would be purchasing items that were legitimate. I have done my best trying to purchase good items -- items that I can keep and enjoy. After all this discussion just keep in mind what you are purchasing is simply a piece of cloth, pair of gloves, pair of shoes, a piece of wood, a pair of socks, a piece of leather, etc. In the whole scheme of things these items are really very trivial. What is not trivial is treating each other with respect and trust. Someone mentioned they can sleep at night -- good for you. I do believe however, there are probably others that don't. I guess as a woman I see things differently. Peace be with you gentlemen and God bless.

[SkubeBats]

Chris,
We know your good friends with Jarrod. Your the one that brought them to this site to sell their items to us collectors. It can't be a good feelling for you at this time. It's your name that might be dragged into this because your deallings with him and his company.

Now that all this has been going on with him it doesn't matter if it was before or after he started his team deals. I just hope we wont have to see you and this site adveritse them and their products anymore or it's not going to look good for you Chris and GUU. They should be treated like anyone else that deals in crap they should be banned for life on here.

JO Sports has been saying there's going to be a press release. The longer the wait the worse it looks!!

Jarrod,
If your out there come on here and tell us if it's true or not? I think the public & collectors and the teams you deal with deserve that.

[SkubeBats]

NYCPROPAIN,
That last comment you made is false!!!

Jarrod did these crimes when JO SPORTS was a company. JO SPORTS started in 2003 and their website was up and working in 2008. This investigation took place 2004-2008. SO JO Sports was up and ruuning their buisness during that time. Chris was jus saying that it took place before their team deals but that once again is just word of mouth.

Yes I agree with you on your comment once shady always shady!!

[SaintsGeaux]

Hello Michael,

Unfortunately, I do not have any "inside insights" on this matter. As I mentioned previously, I was told by JO Sports that they would be issuing a press release which may help answer many of the questions that are being posted here. I do not know when the release will actually take place and I am waiting to see the release just like the other members on this board.

I will say that it is my understanding that the alleged charges stem from issues prior to JO Sports starting his team deals. In fact, it is my understanding that JO started the team deals to try get legitimate merchandise directly rather than dealing with the so-called "sources" referenced in articles. That is my understanding but I will also be waiting for the press release to see if that is correct. Personally, I think it is important to let JO make any statements at this point rather than speculating like some of the other members are doing.

Notably, GUU will remain available as a forum for Jarrod to respond. Further, GUU has always stood for honesty and integrity and remains committed to doing so going forward. This is also the case with the 8D Network and 8D Auctions which I am involved with as well.

There's not much more to say at this time as we, like you, await further clarification from all involved.

Sincerely,
Chris

Chris, it was very stand-up of you to comment. Lance at JO gave me the same back story. It means nothing unless Jarrod Oldridge writes that NOW. I say now, rather than after the case is closed.

I will tell you why. The legal proceedings have not ended. Do you know the words "anything you say can and will be used against you" which is part of your Miranda rights.

There won't be more than a typical vanilla press release because any twisting of what the prosecution has in evidence if contradicted or twisted or flat out lied, could be used against him.

Even if a plea deal has been reached, he should keep his mouth shut as he could jeopardize a plea deal if one exists or make an issue in front of a sentencing Judge.

What the likely scenario is that once all legal proceedings are completed, Jarrod will issue a carefully worded statement spinning this as much as he can.

I don't know the real story. Only Jarrod does.

[xpress34]

I understand some of the points from other posters stating that if an item costs that much you would expect the company to have already done the homework in matching it, making sure its compatible with the dates expressed ... etc. But regardless of all that is it up to you, to make sure what your buying is legit regardless of price. Yes you go on reputation but even if JO was absolutely as clean as a whistle, I wouldnt go based of reputation, i would still do my homework as a safety net just in case.

Based on this statement - and I know you're not the only one on this thread that believes this - in your mind then, there is no need for any type of Guarantee from the seller as verifying that the jersey is what it is purported to be is laid squarely on the Buyer. A reputation means nothing to you, so any Guarantee wouldn't make any difference either.

If you do believe the seller should offer a Guarantee, then how can you not also put ALL of the responsibility on the seller to verify it's legitimate before ever even considering offering it for sale?


We are finally making progress, in a world of trolls and clowns!!!

Wow! Anyone whose not a JO supporter or drinking the Kool-Aid hat you, 34swtns, etc are pouring is a Troll or a Clown? That tells me all I need to know about you.


And yes it does "limit my collection". It keeps my collection free of the crap that some uneducated schmuck might buy on a gamble.
I only "gamble" on a sure thing.

Again, WOW! So because someone is a newbie, they are an 'uneducated schmuck'? I guess you came out of the womb with all the knowledge you needed to just jump right in and photo match, etc? You never had to learn anything? It must be tough to hold up you swollen head.

And if it's a sure thing, it's not a gamble.

--------------------------------------------

34swtns, Pale Hose, etc - you guys are the exact 'Elitist Snobs' I mentioned earlier and I'm certain I will never have any type of dealings with any of you in the future. Your attitudes towards others in this hobby are just as much a part of the problem as JO, Mitch and others trying to pass off junk to unassuming or new collector's.

Also based on the comments you guys and your ilk have posted, you would be okay if someone in your family (mom, sister, grandma, etc)was taken by one of these guys while trying to buy you a gift, because they very well be 'uneducated schmucks' or 'trolls and clowns' who didn't know they had to do 'homework' to buy from a 'Reputable' dealer.

It's okay though and I'm sure you'll sleep well, because after all, it wouldn't be YOUR money... :cool:

- Smitty





I only "gamble" on a sure thing.

[34swtns]

Jarrod would be foolish to say ANYTHING before this has been litigated.

He's very well aware of that. Don't hold your breath waiting for any statement. it's not coming and it shouldn't be.

[cubbs1232]

Hello Michael,


I will say that it is my understanding that the alleged charges stem from issues prior to JO Sports starting his team deals. In fact, it is my understanding that JO started the team deals to try get legitimate merchandise directly rather than dealing with the so-called "sources" referenced in articles.


Sincerely,
Chris

does it really matter when it took place?

[masp3392]

Based on this statement - and I know you're not the only one on this thread that believes this - in your mind then, there is no need for any type of Guarantee from the seller as verifying that the jersey is what it is purported to be is laid squarely on the Buyer. A reputation means nothing to you, so any Guarantee wouldn't make any difference either.

If you do believe the seller should offer a Guarantee, then how can you not also put ALL of the responsibility on the seller to verify it's legitimate before ever even considering offering it for sale?


I never said a reputation means nothing to me. As i stated even if JO was as clean as a whistle and their reputation was through the roof, I would still do my homework on a purchase, especially when that purchase is over $1000. I don't have loads of money to throw around in this hobby and i'm still fairly new to this, but i've always done a fair share of homework before i purchased any of my college jerseys. In the beginning sometimes i got screwed and thats how I learned. Sometimes thats an unfortunate way of learning in this hobby.

All im saying is, people should do homework regardless if the reputation is good or not. Dont just buy just to buy. Always have a safety net.

[SaintsGeaux]

Jarrod may say he was naive and was duped into buying from "sources" that took advantage of him and his knowledge. If that was the case, it would NOT be fraud on him. Fraud is -specifically-defined as are time periods. Time periods do not matter unless it was prior to the statute of limitations. Should it matter this happened prior to "team deals", of course not.

My personal opinion is I don't believe excuses of naivety or being duped or being taken advantage of, nor does the FBI. It is the prosecutor's job to prove fraud and a crime as you must show that the defendant's actions involved five separate elements to be considered the crime of fraud:

(1) a false statement of a material fact,
(2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue,
(3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim,
(4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and
(5) injury to the alleged victim as a result.

Read this again from the Federal Charges:

3. The object of the scheme to defraud was to sell, consign, or auction jerseys by falsely and fraudulently representing to the buyers that the jerseys were game used, when in fact, as the defendant well knew, the jerseys were not game used.

4. As part of the scheme to defraud, the defendant and others involved in the scheme obtained and caused to be obtained hundreds of jerseys from a variety of sources, including retail sellers.

5. It was also a part of the scheme to defraud that the defendant and others involved in the scheme frequently changed, or caused changes to the jerseys’ appearance by roughening, scuffing, washing, dirtying, or otherwise changing the appearance of the jerseys to make them appear that they had actual “wear and tear.”

6. It was also a part of the scheme to defraud that the defendant and others involved in the scheme re-sold, consigned, and auctioned the same jerseys for hundreds of thousands of dollars to sports trading card companies and other buyers by falsely and fraudulently misrepresenting to the buyers that the jerseys were game used, when in fact, as the defendant well knew, the jerseys were not game used.

7. It was also a part of the scheme to defraud that the when the defendant and others involved in the scheme re-sold many of these jerseys, they provided or caused to be provided to the buyers, certificates of authenticity that falsely and fraudulently misrepresented that the jerseys were game used jerseys.

8. It was also a part of the scheme to defraud that the defendant re-sold the jerseys, or caused the jerseys to be re-sold in the name of JO Sports.

[mad87man]

i still say if the store is selling it they should make sure the product is good. They should be photo matching it saying yeah this was def worn on that day, in this game. When you all go to a jewlery store do you bring all you gold testing equipment to make sure its all real gold or real rolexes? No. Same thing with this. I would hope they are selling real jerseys just as the the Jeweler is selling real gold and rolexes. People go on reputation in this world, people spend a lot more money on a jersey from JO sports b/c of their reputation of bringing real stuff to collectors, now they might not, same with jewelry, if the guy gets caught selling a fake rolex among 100 real ones people are going to question it all the time now.

[SkubeBats]

Palehose for life,
If I knew someone that was just getting into this hobby this thread would be the first thing I would show them on this site. It show shows that you can't even count on the guys you thought were the good ones. Plus it has a lot of other inforation in it. It might also show them what collectors to stay away from!!


Chris Cavalier,
I was wondering if Jarrod Oldridge is forund guilty of fraud by conviction or pleads a deal will he and JO Sports be able to be member on here still?

Also I will they be able to adverstise their buisness or auctions on here?

Will GUU do any JO Sports advertising, joint marketing, etc.??

Also will any of the other guys involved in this will they still be members on here?

I look forward to hearing what you have to say about this Chris!!

[Shipp_96]

You guys keep mentioning photomatching -- how many newbies making their first and perhaps only game used purchase knows about photomatching? I didn't when I purchased my first few jerseys. I did not know how dishonest this business is until I stumbled across this forum. How many customers that have purchased game used memorabilia do you think actually know how to photomatch an item? How many times have we had members post "photomatched" items on this forum only to have other members point out that their item is a style match and not a photomatch? It is very difficult to achieve a perfect photomatch for most items which is why customers who want to purchase a legitimate item search out game used memorabilia businesses such as JO, Steiner, Meigray and others...

I have been reading this soap opera unfold all week, and every time I take a break at work or come home there are more pages to view :p. I am not going to get into JO and are they or aren't they. The one jersey I own from them I was fortuitous in that he is (or was) a prominent player and I was able to photo-match it. But my problem is with the photo-matching logic. Look, I mainly collect Penn State game worn, and good luck with that. You are dealing many times with obscure players that get little to no photo references, and even if you find one it may not be the right player due to no name plates! They have a cryptic locker tag # system that identifies the player, but no year markings or anything else on the jersey. The only jerseys I own were able to be matched because a fellow alum of mine works with those players at autograph shows and either they have come from the player directly or during the Universities auctions he can tell me that size of the jersey and locker tag combo=this player. So it is dicey at best.

Obviously if I really want a particular player I must then go to NFL equipment to be sure. Even here I love Mei Grey per say but I bought both former Nittany Lions that were Eagles already from them, so now what? There are Seahawks that are also PSU alums, but many times you are buying off of a list with no pictures or it's in their Pro Shop, so you either buy it then or risk losing out. I am not a tech friendly as many and cannot us my phone to look at Getty or whatever to match these while in their store. So, yeah it's directly from the team but I am not photo matching it to a game to verify it's use until usually after the fact. Plus they launder all of their jerseys, which makes it even more difficult. Does this make me a schmuck? Do I deserve to be swindled due to this? Does my wife who knows nothing about the hobby but happens to be up there and notices a player I love is on their rack so buys it for me as a surprise?

The whole topic makes me personally uneasy and adds to my original trepidations of getting into the hobby in the first place as well. Though I make a nice living I also support a family and my funds have to be carefully spent. So obviously I wish I could always say buy directly from the Seahawks or at a "garage" sale up at Penn State, but that's not always the case. I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone on here about their opinions on JO but just adding my personal experiences with trying to photo match everything.

[frikativ54]

Also based on the comments you guys and your ilk have posted, you would be okay if someone in your family (mom, sister, grandma, etc)was taken by one of these guys while trying to buy you a gift, because they very well be 'uneducated schmucks' or 'trolls and clowns' who didn't know they had to do 'homework' to buy from a 'Reputable' dealer.

Great point, Smitty. We all had to start somewhere, and many of us where duped in the infancy of our collecting days. But what about our relatives who are just buying a gift for us? Should a name not be backed by trust? I know that if my Mom were buying me a game-used present, she wouldn't know a thing about photomatching. Likely, she would go to a trusted source to find a present for my birthday or some other occasion. It's these people that JO and their ilk are taking advantage of, and this ultimately hurts all of our collections.


When you all go to a jewelry store do you bring all you gold testing equipment to make sure its all real gold or real rolexes? No. Same thing with this. I would hope they are selling real jerseys just as the the Jeweler is selling real gold and rolexes. People go on reputation in this world, people spend a lot more money on a jersey from JO sports b/c of their reputation of bringing real stuff to collectors, now they might not, same with jewelry, if the guy gets caught selling a fake rolex among 100 real ones people are going to question it all the time now.

I totally agree, Mad87Man. In business dealings, people go on reputation. It's pretty pathetic that in the game used industry, we have to arm ourselves with photomatches in order to prevent the slew of fakes that could well enter into our collections. It's sad that the same standards of honesty don't seem to apply in this industry.

And it's even more disconcerting that there are people on here who don't seem to care as long as it's not them or their money. I don't know about you, but when I find out about a dealer who has sold fraudulent things, I stop buying from him and his company. Even if it is my Holy Grail, why purchase it if I cannot be 110 percent certain that it's the real deal?

[34swtns]

And it's even more disconcerting that there are people on here who don't seem to care as long as it's not them or their money. I don't know about you, but when I find out about a dealer who has sold fraudulent things, I stop buying from him and his company.

Still sleep........like a baby.

Like I said, you have to assume anybody can get taken, you just have to educate yourself enough to make sure it's not you. Assume every seller is fallible, do your legwork, and you won't get had.

If all the holier-than-thou's here stopped doing business with every dealer who's ever had an issue and returned everything they've bought from every dealer without a spotless record, your collections would be limited to a couple of items.......maybe.

But you would have that awesome "clear conscience" that's so fun to show off to your friends!

[G1X]

Not meaning to get off track here, but the "photo-matching" issue keeps rearing its ugly head in this thread. I always say, each to their own in the comfort level and parameters they set for themselves in collecting game-used items, but to say that "photo matching" should be a rule of thumb for collectors is simply not realistic or feasible for anyone who collects uniforms worn prior to the 21st century. Finding an exact "photo match" of these items is very difficult for a variety of reasons ranging from less available media resources (Getty Images, television coverage, etc.) to the fact that uniforms were worn in multiple games and were washed after each game. Unwashed jerseys were almost unheard of until recently.

If collectors were depending on photo matches of these older items, they would not have much of a collection. Many of these collectors depend on reference material such as programs, yearbooks, newspaper photos, game film, etc., to research for "style matches" on the items they collect as it is nearly impossible to find an exact "photo match" on these older items. In addition to reference material, these collectors depend on communicating with other collectors who have similar interests or knowledge in these areas, viewing the collections of others in the hobby, sorting through the inventory of dealers when possible (at The National or other collector shows, visiting their facilities, etc.), and any other resources that are available.

Again, my apologies for getting off track, but it I felt that it was important to point this out, especially to the newer collectors who might feel that photo matching and letters of authenticity (another discussion for another day) are an automatic requirement before considering a purchase. By far, the majority of legitimate items in this hobby cannot be photo-matched. If you don't feel comfortable without a photo-match (or not having a piece of paper telling you that it's real) that's your prerogative, but you will be missing out on many fine jerseys such as my nice Bears durene jerseys when it comes time for me to sell my collection :)

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[otismalibu]

to say that "photo matching" should be a rule of thumb for collectors is simply not realistic or feasible for anyone who collects uniforms worn prior to the 21st century.

+1

[frikativ54]

If all the holier-than-thou's here stopped doing business with every dealer who's ever had an issue and returned everything they've bought from every dealer without a spotless record, your collections would be limited to a couple of items.......maybe.

But you would have that awesome "clear conscience" that's so fun to show off to your friends!

We're not talking about "an issue" or dealers who don't have "a spotless record" because of maybe a few bad items they didn't know they sold. Rather, we are talking about deliberate misrepresentation and fraud. That's the issue here.

I don't do business with people I know who have deliberately faked and misrepresented game used. As I have said before, it could be my holy grail, but I'd rather sleep with the peace of mind knowing that I have bought from honest companies.

You know, there are times when I have missed out on something; I know this for a fact. But in the end, I would rather show off a clear conscience and good ethics to my friends than used clothing I may not know is even genuine.

[freddiefreeman5]

Still sleep........like a baby.

Like I said, you have to assume anybody can get taken, you just have to educate yourself enough to make sure it's not you. Assume every seller is fallible, do your legwork, and you won't get had.

If all the holier-than-thou's here stopped doing business with every dealer who's ever had an issue and returned everything they've bought from every dealer without a spotless record, your collections would be limited to a couple of items.......maybe.

But you would have that awesome "clear conscience" that's so fun to show off to your friends!
I don't show off my "clear conscience" to anyone. I don't even have a clear conscience because I sin everyday.

BUT you don't have to keep showing off your "I don't care if others get ripped off" attitude to all of us. We get it.

[cubbs1232]

so i was just buying a couple hugo boss jackets at saks 5th ave and while checking out i asked the sales associate how do i know these are real and not knockoffs, he looked at me like i was a jackass and asked me if i was serious and i said yea. he then explained to me "sir this is saks 5th ave we dont sell knockoffs" i again asked him "how do i know these are real" his response "we have a reputation to uphold, we sell high-end fashion so why would we risk that to buy and resell knockoffs? If we did that and someone found out our relataionships with customers and designers would be over and saks would be no more."

ummm....

[Dewey2007]

You should have asked him if he had photomatches for the jackets or if they came with a COA signed by Hugo Boss :-)


so i was just buying a couple hugo boss jackets at saks 5th ave and while checking out i asked the sales associate how do i know these are real and not knockoffs, he looked at me like i was a jackass and asked me if i was serious and i said yea. he then explained to me "sir this is saks 5th ave we dont sell knockoffs" i again asked him "how do i know these are real" his response "we have a reputation to uphold, we sell high-end fashion so why would we risk that to buy and resell knockoffs? If we did that and someone found out our relataionships with customers and designers would be over and saks would be no more."

ummm....

[Lokee]

You should have asked him if he had photomatches for the jackets or if they came with a COA signed by Hugo Boss :-)

LMAO best reply post so far.

[cubbs1232]

You should have asked him if he had photomatches for the jackets or if they came with a COA signed by Hugo Boss :-)

If I post high res photos of them can anyone match them for me please?

[Lokee]

Well sir it looks like that loose thread by the upper arm seam matches this one here in the autumn catalog.

[masp3392]

so i was just buying a couple hugo boss jackets at saks 5th ave and while checking out i asked the sales associate how do i know these are real and not knockoffs, he looked at me like i was a jackass and asked me if i was serious and i said yea. he then explained to me "sir this is saks 5th ave we dont sell knockoffs" i again asked him "how do i know these are real" his response "we have a reputation to uphold, we sell high-end fashion so why would we risk that to buy and resell knockoffs? If we did that and someone found out our relataionships with customers and designers would be over and saks would be no more."

ummm....

So now we've resorted to making fun of other posters who are merely stating their opinion. Even if you don't like what the other poster has said it is that of an opinion which is entitled to everyone on this board. We are all collectors on all different levels, with all different views on things. Just because someone else's opinion doesn't match yours, doesn't give you the right to make fun.

Just my 2 cents ...

[cubbs1232]

So now we've resorted to making fun of other posters who are merely stating their opinion. Even if you don't like what the other poster has said it is that of an opinion which is entitled to everyone on this board. We are all collectors on all different levels, with all different views on things. Just because someone else's opinion doesn't match yours, doesn't give you the right to make fun.

Just my 2 cents ...

Where exactly did I make fun of someone?

[masp3392]

Where exactly did I make fun of someone?

your message was obviously geared towards those who regardless of what happens will stick with buying JO jerseys and/or care about photomatching being the standard that everyone should follow regardless or price or reputation.

just interpreting what I read, if it isn't your intention, i apologize but definitly sounded like your poking fun at others who feel differently

[Jules9]

I understand everyone saying I found a photo match so I know the jersey is good but what if some of the wear on the matched jersey has been manufactured or "enhanced" on the jersey to make it stand out better. If you question wear from a jersey to a photo you can always say that it looks different because of the lighting differences of when the photo was taken.

Also if there is wear on a jersey that can't be photo matched but other marks can be matched, how do you know if it is legit wear.

If all these allegations turn out to be true, then you truly have to question any JO jersey whether it's photo matched or not.

Do I think they may have added wear to every jersey, no, but it does cast some doubt onto their jerseys if true.

Now let me go inspect my JO jersey a little better.

[xpress34]

Gotta love how words get twisted and turned on here from the other side...
So know where comparing this to a standard jacket ran off an assembly line? LOL, to all the jacket collectors out there good luck. And by the way there are small inconsistencies in tags and design when you compare a real piece compared to a fake piece, whether it be sunglasses,watch,designer accessories like that, so in actuality yeah its basically the same concept to photo matching, you are comparing real to fake by seeing it in person next to each other or pics of know legit samples compared to Asian knock offs. Wow you people like to go in circles, and the results are still the same... No actual proof or knowledge of what,when and where happened, but are still willing to be the corner stone of being part of the group that tries to bring an innocent until proven guilty company to its knees! I hope you will all be able to sleep at night on your pillow of doubt??? Know one here know the truth accept J.O, so until that comes out from him or the court, why don't we stop ASS-uming and wait to see what happens instead of speculating and hurting this companies rep... Deer eating popcorn!:cool: whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Pale -

Apparently you either don't understand or are closing your eyes to the fact that JO was charged with a Criminal Information.

That means that instead of making the Prosecutor take him to a Grand Jury and prove that he did something wrong, he IS making a Plea Agreement with the Prosecution because he has already admitted to them that they have more than enough to get an Indictment in front of a Grand Jury.

Innocent until proven Guilty has NO bearing here. They have ADMITTED some type of wrong doing to the Prosecutors based on the information at hand.

This isn't 'twisting' anything... this is a statement of FACT based on the information that has been published if you actually cared to read it.

And as far as an assembly line? How do you think even game worn jerseys are made? Do you think they are each hand sewn and such?

No, they make the jerseys in bulk to the player specs.

But I digress.

All I know is JO and others (4 of the 6) are making pleas. Only 2 of the 6 are forcing a Grand Jury hearing meaning those 2 (and JO is NOT one of them) don't believe the prosecutors have enough to get an Indictment.

- Smitty

P.S. As a Disabled Vet and former Loss Prevention Officer, I sleep MUCH better at night when I know that frauds and crooks are getting busted. The fact they are making a plea leaves NO DOUBT in my mind. This is a Federal Charge, not someone on GUU claiming they are getting screwed.

[xpress34]

And as far as an assembly line? How do you think even game worn jerseys are made? Do you think they are each hand sewn and such?

No, they make the jerseys in bulk to the player specs.

But I digress.

Oh, BTW - for those that think I don't know what I'm talking about here, I also use to work for both NIKE and RAWLINGS and I'm pretty certain that Uniform Manufacturing hasn't changed much since 2007.

Smitty

[solarlottry]

This post is also off-topic but it seems as if the thread is moving into the Love-JO/Hate-JO realm rather than focusing on the matter at hand.

I agree with Mark 100%.

I have been trying to match some of my older 49er gamers and it is NOT EASY! Even with knowing what game the shirt was worn, having the shirt in hand and watching the dvd, it still is tough to come up with a match on some shirts.

Take, for instance, the 1994 William Floyd rookie gamer I have that was worn vs the Raiders. It was his first regular season game and he only had 2 carries for 8 yards and no catches. He did play on special teams though but obtaining a clear image of him during the game that will allow me to photo-match his jersey is tough. Plus with the lack of snaps the jersey is fairly clean. A style match is not tough though.

Knowing these facts should I not purchase the jersey because it lacks a definitive photo-match? It has an authentic team letter, is style matched and has the equipment managers tape on the nameplate. For me that is more than enough to be comfortable with the purchase. Obviously a definitive photo-match would be great on my entire collection but it is not realistic.

If I had to have a photo-match for all of the vintage 49er gamers in my collection I would not own many of the ones I have. I think taking into account all of the factors that Mark mentioned surrounding a jersey, should help make or break a purchase.

With regards to the original thread I think it is problematic that JO is caught up in all of this. To me it makes no difference when the alleged acts occurred and whether or not their team items are authentic or not. It is the fact that he allowed himself and his reputation to get caught up in something like this that is troubling. Jarod knows this business well so one would hope that he knows who he is dealing with and what they are selling.

With team and player deals in place it is Jarod's duty to be absolutely transparent as any discretion can tarnish his reputation and put the deals at risk. Evidently he may not have done this although once the facts are made public, this may change.

Whenever I dealt with JO I dealt with Robert and he has always done right by me so i will reserve any other comments until Jarod's statement and the investigation is complete.

Always buying 49er gamers!
Paul
garciajones@yahoo.com

[dcgreg25]

The dialogue in this thread is critically important and of interest to just about every one of the members of GUU. However, I would ask that everyone try to limit their posts to comments that could be construed as helpful/useful to others.

I think the majority of the regular members have chimed in with an opinion and some very compelling points have been made on various sides of the issue, many of which I had not considered.

Unfortunately, some of the recent posts have veered towards arguing for the sake of arguing. As a collector, and a moderator, I am interested in useful content not who is right or wrong in an arguement. I have no problems with disagreement that brings new insight to a situation. However, further posts made to just "stir things up" will be deleted as they are not helpful to anyone.

[David]

Those collectors who chose to buy from dealers they know to have cheated or faked shall thus lose the right to complain in the future about all the crooked sellers in the hobby. Because it is they, those collectors, who keep the crooked dealers in business. They are financial enablers.

[David]

I also don't understand the logic, rather morals, of collectors who buy from dealers who they know cheat others, "as long as they don't cheat me." Do you call 911 when you see a someone burglarizing your neighbor's house, or do you save the phone call for only when yours is broken into?

Lastly, if you buy from a company you know has cheated and you know the hobby knows has cheated. do you disclose this provenance at sale or do you suppress it? Is hiding this provenance to preserve your sell price ethical? Is it legal?

[masp3392]

I also don't understand the logic, rather morals, of collectors who buy from dealers who they know cheat others, "as long as they don't cheat me." Do you call 911 when you see a someone burglarizing your neighbor's house, or do you save the phone call for only when yours is broken into?

Lastly, if you buy from a company you know has cheated and you know the hobby knows has cheated. do you disclose this provenance at sale or do you suppress it? Is hiding this provenance to preserve your sell price ethical? Is it legal?

Im personally not saying im ok with JO cheating other people. My position is yes, i'll continue to buy from JO because I myself have purchased items that are photomatched and ive done my homework on, and im 100% satisfactory in these purchases. The point is regardless of reputation wether its good or bad, people need to do there homework as a safety net.

1) yes i agree, when you pay that much money for something you should not have to sweat wether its legit or not.

2) yes i agree, that a company who does remotely any fraudulant business is in fact immoral and should be punished to the extent of the law. (Lets wait and see what comes out first to judge)

3) I still maintain that w/e purchase should be examined if you have any doubts about it whatsoever. If i get a eerie sense on any jersey not being up to par, i simply dont spend the $$$, i dont take it a chance on it.

[jppopma]

I also don't understand the logic, rather morals, of collectors who buy from dealers who they know cheat others, "as long as they don't cheat me." Do you call 911 when you see a someone burglarizing your neighbor's house, or do you save the phone call for only when yours is broken into?

Lastly, if you buy from a company you know has cheated and you know the hobby knows has cheated. do you disclose this provenance at sale or do you suppress it? Is hiding this provenance to preserve your sell price ethical? Is it legal?

Well said, it is amazing that there are so many people that will be accepting of these things unless it happens to them. For the sake of the hobby, we need to support the feds identifying and removing these bad jerseys from the market.

Innocent until proven guilty....Palehose, I think most members are just stating their opinions and options to chose who to deal with. Some are willing to take a chance with JO and others won't touch them with a 10 foot stick right now. The term innocent until proven guilty is only a legal term; within one's opinion, they have the right to cast doubt or guilt for as minor reason as they want.

Alot of it comes down to morals and reputation. Many collectors hold their morals to a high level and take major offense to the thought that they have been taken, or moreso risk their reputation when they resell items.

Speaking of morals, reputation, and opinion. While some posts say they are just playing devil's advocate, many opinions are being made about people's acceptance of the lack of morals...

[Trublubrucru]

Now that this has happened, Maybe its time for the NFL to follow MLB and do their own authenticating. This has worked out well for baseball, and if football can do it in house, it would solidify the usage, and practically eliminate the need for second tier companies to do authenticating or dealers doing their own "research". The NFL has enough employees and resources that surely this could be done. It is time.

As for JO sports, years back, the first thing I saw for sale from them was a Jamarcus Russell helmet at $2500.00 . I laughed and knew these guys weren't for me, and I never bothered to look at any of their stuff again.

[dplettn]

Now that this has happened, Maybe its time for the NFL to follow MLB and do their own authenticating. This has worked out well for baseball, and if football can do it in house, it would solidify the usage, and practically eliminate the need for second tier companies to do authenticating or dealers doing their own "research". The NFL has enough employees and resources that surely this could be done. It is time.


I certainly agree. The hard thing for us to realize in the hobby is that the game used merchandising segment is not particularly financially relevant to the leagues (or teams).

Only MLB and NFL could speak on behalf of their own positions, but clearly MLB created a high standard already and is pretty far along not only in scaling up its authentications but in refining its processes to authenticate more relevant items.

MLB had two purposes (beyond financial) that I can recognize. 1) Its sport has a strong historic element and it has a clear need for grassroots benefits, 2) its authentic items and false items were challenging to differentiate in the marketplace

Given that the NFL has a comparatively larger influx of young fans from the fantasy hobby and the pace and contact nature of its game, I expect that investing in an authentication process similar to MLB has not been a priority.

However, now that MLB has set the standard and a number of its member organizations have been caught with their pants down after signing with JO, the NFL very well may determine to create its own system for authentic merchandise.

[legaleagle92481]

There is no excuse as to why any sports league does not have a system to track all jerseys that involves installing something on a jersey to do so before it is ever even worn. I believe the NBA did that last season. This is a big business and many teams whether through JO or otherwise sell their jerseys in some way shape or form so the leagues should make what in the big picture is a small investment that would be a major step toward cleaning up the industry going forward. The idea of photomatching every purchase is great in theory but in my opinion in practice it is highly idealistic. As other posters have said you cannot photomatch washed jerseys, for lesser players and older jerseys pictures may not be available and in other cases a match may not just be possible due to the lack of distinctive markings on the jersey such as many NBA jerseys, QB and kicker jerseys. Plus NFL Auctions often provides terrible photos of the products they are offering that would be impossible in most cases to use for a photomatch. And try asking them for additional pictures that request is not likely to be fulfilled if the way they normally respond to questions is an indication. Yes of course you have the option not to buy but it limits ones ability to collect greatly. I also think when you buy from companies like JO, Steiner and MeiGray, as when you buy directly from the league you pay a premium over what you would pay from a smaller seller and the purpose of that premium is to receive peace of mind and a no doubt about it authentic product. The onus to do the work should not be on the collector in these situations but the seller, thats what your paying extra for.

[David]

PSA/DNA uses that invisible DNA marker on items, and has catalogued stuff for NFL Auctions before. There's an idea of how the NFL could have things marked and verified.

[legaleagle92481]

PSA/DNA uses that invisible DNA marker on items, and has catalogued stuff for NFL Auctions before. There's an idea of how the NFL could have things marked and verified.

Do they do that before or after the item is worn? Another way is how Barry does it in his hockey program with a special tag I believe.

[Jags Fan Dan]

Did JO change their name? Just got an email from them that said it was from "Game Worn NFL".

[schubert1970]

Did JO change their name? Just got an email from them that said it was from "Game Worn NFL".


I don't know, but I would like to have and LOA attesting to this change so I know it's really happened.

[b.heagy]

Did JO change their name? Just got an email from them that said it was from "Game Worn NFL".

I got one too. JO Logo is still incorporated into the email.

[SkubeBats]

I did notice under their section "Partnership team" the college team names they work with have been removed. Does anyone know if they lost their deals with these teams or what?

[tspane2k]

Don't know about the college partnerships, but half of the St. Louis Rams jerseys have been switched to "Issued" instead of game worn.

[mickeymbz]

There is no excuse as to why any sports league does not have a system to track all jerseys that involves installing something on a jersey to do so before it is ever even worn. I believe the NBA did that last season. This is a big business and many teams whether through JO or otherwise sell their jerseys in some way shape or form so the leagues should make what in the big picture is a small investment that would be a major step toward cleaning up the industry going forward. The idea of photomatching every purchase is great in theory but in my opinion in practice it is highly idealistic. As other posters have said you cannot photomatch washed jerseys, for lesser players and older jerseys pictures may not be available and in other cases a match may not just be possible due to the lack of distinctive markings on the jersey such as many NBA jerseys, QB and kicker jerseys. Plus NFL Auctions often provides terrible photos of the products they are offering that would be impossible in most cases to use for a photomatch. And try asking them for additional pictures that request is not likely to be fulfilled if the way they normally respond to questions is an indication. Yes of course you have the option not to buy but it limits ones ability to collect greatly. I also think when you buy from companies like JO, Steiner and MeiGray, as when you buy directly from the league you pay a premium over what you would pay from a smaller seller and the purpose of that premium is to receive peace of mind and a no doubt about it authentic product. The onus to do the work should not be on the collector in these situations but the seller, thats what your paying extra for.
the nba supposedly installed a system in which each jersey has a disignated serial number for each jersey. its a good idea.. but its nothing they keep track of. ive heard equipment managers pay no mind to them whatsoever... and ive read posts where members try to track their jerseys and cannot even find it as registered. a good idea in theory , but what godd is it if nobody heeds to it?

[schubert1970]

Chris, its been over a week since you said JO would post a Press Release. I am glad they haven't, given the one-sided political nature of a PR piece. But in the absence of one, their employees have been spreading sunshine in carefully worded and cryptic messages. What a farce.

But there is something else that is even more disturbing to me here. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.

What I would like to know is when will JO Sports be banned and thrown into the trash heap with so many others who have shamed this hobby? I'm not even talking about guilt or innocence of this legal issue, I am talking what I believe is clear issues with them in the hobby. Currently *a cleanup damage control operation commenced as evidenced on their own website where, overnight, they have reclassified jerseys now called "game issued" where last week were "game used"? Another innocent mistake? Simple timing coincidence?

I am troubled as to why you would give these thugs a platform here on GUU to profit off of members? Even more troublesome, why would you come on your own GUU, after they have been named as one of 6 charged with fraud by the feds, and state the following:


I will say that it is my understanding that the alleged charges stem from issues prior to JO Sports starting his team deals. In fact, it is my understanding that JO started the team deals to try get legitimate merchandise directly rather than dealing with the so-called "sources" referenced in articles. That is my understanding but I will also be waiting for the press release to see if that is correct. Personally, I think it is important to let JO make any statements at this point rather than speculating like some of the other members are doing.

Notably, GUU will remain available as a forum for Jarrod to respond. Further, GUU has always stood for honesty and integrity and remains committed to doing so going forward. This is also the case with the 8D Network and 8D Auctions which I am involved with as well.


Chris, in the past we have all seen when you like a member in trouble you post on their behalf instead of staying neutral. I state that as my opinion and observation and maybe you don't perceive it that way. The statement above, your statement, illustrates my concern. Another example that comes to mind immediately is the Rob Steinmetz/Barry Larkin jersey thread. You went so far as to delete that thread. Everyone knows Rob was a mod here. *

And what about the Juan Iglesias/Albert Pujols bat fiasco? On this one, you banned Juan for his failure to come out and state his side of the added use on the bat while it was apparently under his control and had none prior. Hell, he wasn't indicted by the feds!? The defensive stance he chose to take stunk to high hell, but still, no charges, and he was banned even if for a limited time.

It is your site and I appreciate the ability to be a part of it. I don't take that for granted. Part of what that membership should afford is taking a hard stance against members not in good standing. Yet you pick and choose in an obvious bias manner. Yet you claim the GUU has always stood for honesty and integrity and remains committed to doing so going forward. If that's true, how do you explain the incredible 180 degree directions displayed in your past actions on favored acquaintances vs. other forum members? In my view, they appear to be in direct conflict to these claims.

I would like to hear from you about the conflict of interest posed in your banning certain forum members whom you have no affiliation with, while standing up for Rob Steinmetz who sold unauthentic items he placed LOA's on as good game used items, and when proven they were not, you removed the thread, banned Juan Iglesias for obvious game use added to a bat he owned that had none prior but would offer no explanation for, then now, again, with a guy you have a business relationship with, who has been flagged by the feds as a guy who fraudulently sold doctored jerseys he had knowledge of as being bad to your forum members, among others? And you choose to leave this forum available to this guy for his ability to respond? I'm not sure I understand how this can be. He has the feds publicly placing him in the slammer, but you want him to maintain a good standing here so he can lie to us some more?

I think you owe us all a detailed explanation Chris. I for one don't care to hear a B.S. press release of JO Sports' version. The feds indictment, plea, or whatever will come out of this mess is far more damning than anything we all could possibly hear. And he still gets an open forum to comment on?

I'm all ears Mr. Cavalier.

Bill

[34swtns]

For chrissakes Barney Fife, take a breath! :rolleyes:

I don't know that Chris owes you or any of us a damned thing.

[ChrisCavalier]

...with a guy you have a business relationship with, who has been flagged by the feds as a guy who fraudulently sold doctored jerseys he had knowledge of as being bad to your forum members, among others? And you choose to leave this forum available to this guy for his ability to respond? I'm not sure I understand how this can be. He has the feds publicly placing him in the slammer, but you want him to maintain a good standing here so he can lie to us some more?
Now let me get this straight. You claim above that JO "fraudulently sold doctored jerseys he had knowledge of as being bad to your forum members, among others.." Are you saying that you know exactly what the alleged charges are against JO? If so, please let me know how you acquired access to that information and how you know that JO knowingly "sold doctored jerseys" to forum members. I don't think anyone on here knows exactly what the charges are and yet you seem to have access to information that no one else has access to. Please let me know how you got that information and I will be glad to discuss it further with you.

Further, you also stated "He has the feds publicly placing him in the slammer". Once again, could you please let me know how you got that information as well? I have not seen anything that publicly states JO is going to "the slammer" and yet you are publicly making this claim.

As I mentioned, I do not know exactly what the specific charges are regarding JO and I mentioned leaving the forum open for him to respond to the questions members here have posed. Obviously, there appears to be reasons JO has not made any public statements yet and I, like you, will be interested in hearing them when he does. Please correct me if I'm wrong but JO has not posted anything on the forum since the release nor has he "lied to [you] some more".

As I mentioned, the forum is open for him to respond when he is ready. Until that time, or until further, credible information is publicly released, I do not think we are in a position to make the claims you have made regarding the investigation since I do not know anyone on here knows exactly the scope of what is involved.

Again, if you have access to privileged information that none of us have here, please let us know as well as how you acquired that information. If you do have access to that information, I will be glad to address your concerns as well as your unfounded accusations regarding my actions being in direct conflict with my claims of operating with honesty and integrity.

I'm all ears Mr. Schubert?

Sincerely,
Chris

[short84]

I personally purchased 2 jerseys that were sold and represented as game used but were not. How many misrepresented items does it take to prove falsely representing items were being sold (FRAUD)? Both were purchased during 2010 and 2011. I also pointed out the mystery bidding and mystery reserve prices observed during auctions held by JO Sports (when they called themselves JO Sports). A certain Crayton jersey with 8 mystery bids and a "final" selling price of $931 (much higher than his jerseys are worth) not being sold. It still available for sale on their web site after the auction. During the Chargers and Chiefs sale, this jersey was reduced to $1125. Now if you take the final mystery auction price of $931 and add the buyer's premium, you would have a price of $1070.65 -- and it didn't sell???????? My observations and first hand experience tell my there are still shady deals going on --

[short84]

Sorry for the horrific grammar in my previous post -- I did not realize I could not edit. I know there are members who think Jarrod is outstanding and a terrific individual who has done nothing wrong -- you are entitled to your opinion and I am sure he is appreciative of your support. However, as someone who was ripped off by his company, I see the other side. Thank goodness we can exchange information via this forum. I feel sorry for buyers who are not forum members who were misled and purchased bad items. You can ban me if you want -- but once a pattern of dishonest behavior has been established, it is hard to break. I am still waiting for my apology and I will continue to let others know about the bad items I purchased and the shady auctions being held on the JO Sports website (or whatever they are called now). Someone has to stand up for the honest buyer and collector.

[zooat2]

- The bottom line here is that no matter how much we go back and forth on this (positive or negative) this has ultimately left ANOTHER black eye on the hobby that we all love and hold dear....and that my friends, is the saddest part of this whole thing....

- This hobby HAS TO be built on trust, and when that trust is repeatedly broken it makes it tough for all of us...

[Preston]

Now I've purchased 3 game worn jerseys from JO over time:

1. Carlos Rogers 08 home jersey unwashed w/ lots of wear "photomatched" to the Steelers game in 2008 - I have since sold it but I really did like it. I just chose to put money toward another jersey or two.

2. Terdell Sands 2005 Raiders away jersey - has some hit marks and wear on it...I've yet to try to photomatch it but maybe I will try. Seeing as he's a superstar, I'd like to think it's not one that was "altered" or "forged" in any way.

3. Daunte Culpepper 2005 Vikings away "game used" jersey - NO wear AT ALL, was told BY Robert that it was "game used". I'm not even sure it's been washed - I mean it is issued which is STILL cool, but telling me it's game worn is fraud when in actuality it's issued.

So 2 out of 3 jerseys I've bought are LIKELY "legit", and while they say "2 out of 3 ain't bad", the fact that one was misrepresented is scary because, let's play devil's advocate - what IF one out of every three jerseys they sold were FAKE? Whether it's one item or all of them that are "misrepresented", it's a problem because it was KNOWINGLY MISREPRESENTED.

[SkubeBats]

ChrisCavallier,
I asked you several questions in POST #334 and I never heard from you. I would like to see what you have to say to my questions.

Also Chris there are several GUU moderators that have plenty of information about Jarrod and his shaddy deallings but their to affraid to comment on here because your a "FRIEND OF JARRODS"... They think if they will post you will get mad and ban them like anyone else. It' to bad you have this fear in these guys because I and everyone else should know the information that they do.

Hope to hear back from you soon....

[slam]

Also Chris there are several GUU moderators that have plenty of information about Jarrod and his shaddy deallings but their to affraid to comment on here because your a "FRIEND OF JARRODS"... They think if they will post you will get mad and ban them like anyone else. It' to bad you have this fear in these guys because I and everyone else should know the information that they do.

Hope to hear back from you soon....

Please do share.

[TNTtoys]

ChrisCavallier,
I asked you several questions in POST #334 and I never heard from you. I would like to see what you have to say to my questions.

Also Chris there are several GUU moderators that have plenty of information about Jarrod and his shaddy deallings but their to affraid to comment on here because your a "FRIEND OF JARRODS"... They think if they will post you will get mad and ban them like anyone else. It' to bad you have this fear in these guys because I and everyone else should know the information that they do.

Hope to hear back from you soon....

Very interesting post, and very insulting to say the least. I have no idea what this information about "Jarrod and his shady dealings" is that you're referring to. I suppose I am not as privileged as yourself and the other moderators?

[Lokee]

Also Chris there are several GUU moderators that have plenty of information about Jarrod and his shaddy deallings but their to affraid to comment on here because your a "FRIEND OF JARRODS"... They think if they will post you will get mad and ban them like anyone else. It' to bad you have this fear in these guys because I and everyone else should know the information that they do.

Hope to hear back from you soon....

Sounds to me like if your not part of the "in crowd" you are left in the lurch.

[SkubeBats]

I have been talking to one of the moderates and he tells me there's others that know stuff but wont post on here because Chris is friends with Jarrod. He won't let me post his name but I've asked him to stand up and tell what he knows but he won't post on here. Some of the questions I've asked on here were question he wanted answer to himself. I know nothing more then the rest of you. He just states there's more to this then we all know.

[TNTtoys]

He just states there's more to this then we all know.

Of course there is more to this than we all know. Your implication that all of us know something and are afraid to post it is completely false and ridiculous.

[SkubeBats]

I didn't say you all know stuff. He claims to know stuff that Jarrod has done but won't state it on GUU because Chris is friends with Jarrod. Maybe you should email all your moderates and find out who he is. I won't say his name but I wish he would stand up and say something. I've asked him to do this for all of us.

[ChrisCavalier]

I have been talking to one of the moderates and he tells me there's others that know stuff but wont post on here because Chris is friends with Jarrod. He won't let me post his name but I've asked him to stand up and tell what he knows but he won't post on here. Some of the questions I've asked on here were question he wanted answer to himself. I know nothing more then the rest of you. He just states there's more to this then we all know.
Jamie,

Your comments are both reckless and baseless. If you, or your "friend", has any information that we are not privy to please post it now or stop the rediculous claims you are making. You also claimed "They think if they will post you will get mad and ban them like anyone else." No one has ever been banned for any reason other than the fact that they violated the forum rules. While the people who have been banned will obviously claim they did nothing wrong (imagine that), that is simply not the case.

I give you my personal guarantee that nothing will happen to anyone who comes forward with substantiated information that we do not have. Please feel free to tell that to your "friend". In addition, I believe you are also irresponsible in trying to bring the other moderators into this situation. They are upstanding people who spend a great deal of their time trying to help other collectors by helping moderate this forum. If you want to make baseless claims, please direct them to me and we can have the discussion directly...on the forum here if you like.

Lastly, please let me know how you have been wronged as well. As I said before, if anyone feels they were deliberately defrauded and have proof please feel free to post it here. So far I have seen sitautions where people had questions about items and apparently contacted JO and I am presuming those matters have been resolved. If there is some form of fraud (I don't see Suzanne's posts as deliberate fraud) than please feel free to post it now. As always, we will not ban someone for posting substantiated information. You can check our rules and see what constitutes a violation if you have any questions.

I look forward to seeing your substantiated posts, either by you or your "friend".

Sincerely,
Chris

[SkubeBats]

Chris,
I'm not trying to bring other moderates into this. I was asked by one of your moderates to ask you some questions as I did. I know he should stand up and say something but he won't. He's the one with information not me. I don't know anything more then the rest of you.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also I was just contacted by the FBI agent in charge of this case. We had over a 20 min talk on the phone and via emails. He would like me to ask you all if their is anyone that knows anymore informaiton on this case to contact the FBI Office in Chicago or contact me and I'll pass on your information to him. He said he prefers to talk on the phone rather via emails.

The FBI has been following GUU for several years now and like the information that we all as collectors share on this site. They have been taking down names of guys we think are the bad one's. He doesn't know how long the FBI will keep looking into the problems of our hobby so now is the time to speak up and tell what you know. If you have any other claim or know someone that's selling bad items to contac the FBI CHicago Office.

The FBI has been and is still talking to members of GUU about some of the trouble in our hobby. So keep up the good work!!

[camarokids]

[quote=legaleagle92481;272322]
Yes, you should.

This is still America. Where we have the right to speak our mind!

I have not chimed in on the JO Sports debacle. Looks to me like they are guilty!!!!!! They made a plea in the case against them!!!!

I have never bought anything from them due to their prices and I don't really want to start collecting football.

Do I need to shut f*ck up too?

[SkubeBats]

Chris,
I was wondering if you would answer or comment on my questions I asked you in post #334?

[jhunt28]

I personally purchased 2 jerseys that were sold and represented as game used but were not. How many misrepresented items does it take to prove falsely representing items were being sold (FRAUD)? Both were purchased during 2010 and 2011. I also pointed out the mystery bidding and mystery reserve prices observed during auctions held by JO Sports (when they called themselves JO Sports). A certain Crayton jersey with 8 mystery bids and a "final" selling price of $931 (much higher than his jerseys are worth) not being sold. It still available for sale on their web site after the auction. During the Chargers and Chiefs sale, this jersey was reduced to $1125. Now if you take the final mystery auction price of $931 and add the buyer's premium, you would have a price of $1070.65 -- and it didn't sell???????? My observations and first hand experience tell my there are still shady deals going on --


I'm really getting sick of posts like this. You had a bad experience with JO, when you bought the jersey of a player who played 4 snaps in the NFL...we get it. You also got your money back...I don't understand your constant whining about this? I'm pretty sure the price you paid was probably less than that of a retail NFL jersey on NFLSHOP.com (around $250).

As for the JO auctions, you clearly have not been involved in many auction house auctions before. Just because you think that a Patrick Crayton jersey is worth less than the reserve price in an auction really doesn't matter. The person selling the jersey will set the reserve, and if it doesn't meet that reserve price, then it won't sell. And your argument about the jersey being reduced after it didn't sell in an auction is not very rational. Have you ever gone to buy a car, left the showroom after your offer was turned down, yet to get a phone call the next day asking if you'd like to buy the car at your original offer price? Have you ever heard of TV's going on sale??? It does happen in the real world.

As far as someone else talking about JO having deals with college teams, that statement is absolutely FALSE. JO has never had any deals with any college teams. They have had college items for sale after the individuals have left college...but they don't have college deals. So maybe you people should get your facts straight before heaping garbage onto the "JO HATE PILE". I think Jarrod has enough going on in his life, that he shouldn't have to deal with false statements.

In all of this BS back and forth, I still have yet to see anyone come forth with a "doctored" or jersey with "manufactured" wear. I have asked for someone to come forth since this thread started, and have yet to see any proof.

[jhunt28]

Now I've purchased 3 game worn jerseys from JO over time:

1. Carlos Rogers 08 home jersey unwashed w/ lots of wear "photomatched" to the Steelers game in 2008 - I have since sold it but I really did like it. I just chose to put money toward another jersey or two.

2. Terdell Sands 2005 Raiders away jersey - has some hit marks and wear on it...I've yet to try to photomatch it but maybe I will try. Seeing as he's a superstar, I'd like to think it's not one that was "altered" or "forged" in any way.

3. Daunte Culpepper 2005 Vikings away "game used" jersey - NO wear AT ALL, was told BY Robert that it was "game used". I'm not even sure it's been washed - I mean it is issued which is STILL cool, but telling me it's game worn is fraud when in actuality it's issued.

So 2 out of 3 jerseys I've bought are LIKELY "legit", and while they say "2 out of 3 ain't bad", the fact that one was misrepresented is scary because, let's play devil's advocate - what IF one out of every three jerseys they sold were FAKE? Whether it's one item or all of them that are "misrepresented", it's a problem because it was KNOWINGLY MISREPRESENTED.


Terdell Sands is a "superstar"??? How much did you pay for this Culpepper jersey? Did you know that he only played in 5 games that year before he was hurt? Did you try and photomatch the jersey before you bought it? Did you ever think that it could be game used, and he wasn't hit once in any of those games? Did someone FORCE you to buy this jersey????

[jhunt28]

Currently *a cleanup damage control operation commenced as evidenced on their own website where, overnight, they have reclassified jerseys now called "game issued" where last week were "game used"? Another innocent mistake? Simple timing coincidence?




Can you provide examples of this "damage control"? I thought the old forum rules were that you must contact the person you have an issue with, and then post a problem with it after 24hrs. I didn't think you could just make claims without any proof? I have spoken to JO, and they have not changed any descriptions of any of their items overnight. So next time maybe try posting facts.

[SkubeBats]

I still don't get some of you guys. You ask people to come on here state their claims agianst Jarrod or JO Sports and once they do you guys rip them apart for doing so.

Some of you guys still don't get it. The FBI has charged these 6 guys and 4 of them have or are making pleas with the FBI and 2 guys state thier not quilty. Jarrod is one of the 4 men that are making plea's with the Goverment. SO don't come on here and say he didn't do anything wrong!! What do you think the FBI is making this all up? (The only guys I see standing up for Jarrod are guys who spent money with him and JO or are friends of theirs. These guys are like drug deallers and you guys need your fix.) I think it's time you guys wake up and see the light...

For the rest of you do whats right and stand up to these guys and state your cases against these scum bags. The more information the FBI can get the better our hobby will be in the long run!!!

[Preston]

Pretty awesome JO seems to have employees as board members "vouching" for them...that, or hopefully they're being compensated somehow (ha ha).

[jhunt28]

I still don't get some of you guys. You ask people to come on here state their claims agianst Jarrod or JO Sports and once they do you guys rip them apart for doing so.

Some of you guys still don't get it. The FBI has charged these 6 guys and 4 of them have or are making pleas with the FBI and 2 guys state thier not quilty. Jarrod is one of the 4 men that are making plea's with the Goverment. SO don't come on here and say he didn't do anything wrong!! What do you think the FBI is making this all up? (The only guys I see standing up for Jarrod are guys who spent money with him and JO or are friends of theirs. These guys are like drug deallers and you guys need your fix.) I think it's time you guys wake up and see the light...

For the rest of you do whats right and stand up to these guys and state your cases against these scum bags. The more information the FBI can get the better our hobby will be in the long run!!!

The last details I heard, JO was "named" in a case in which there was fraud involving card companies. JO has not even been "directly" named. Other than that, ZERO DETAILS have been released. Until then, I will hold judgement.

[BULBUS]

I dont think there are going to be that many individuals, that are GUU members, that are going to be able to come on here with examples of fraud committed by Jarrod.

It seems that card companies were the easy target for these scammers and I hope these companies take action against these individuals.

[commando]

I have not commented on this thread until now. Good lord. I'm not as concerned about the guilt or innocence of JO Sports as much as I am about the "witch hunt" going on here by some of you (whether you realize it or not). It sounds like the FBI is well aware of what has happened in the past, and this is information we will all learn in due time. Those of you who are now pointing fingers at any and every person ever to do business with JO, knows someone who works at JO, is the moderator of a forum who knows someone who works at JO, or washed the car of the mother of the cousin who swept the floor for JO, is absolutely ridiculous and irresponsible.

I think the admin staff of this forum has done an excellent job of not over moderating this thread, as rambling and incoherent as it may be at times. Yes, we are all affected in one way or another by what has happened -- whether it is directly as a customer of JO, or a game used collector in general who is seeing the hobby get a black eye in general. But each of you needs to be careful with your comments, because once they are memorialized on the web, they may come back to haunt you one day.

Take this for what it's worth.

[jhunt28]

Pretty awesome JO seems to have employees as board members "vouching" for them...that, or hopefully they're being compensated somehow (ha ha).


This is a great example of the nonsense in this thread. When faced with numerous questions regarding your purchase in which you consider fraudulent, you deflect the questions, and follow up with ridiculous statements. This should be a fact finding thread, in which you have been personally involved with "fraud" in a purchase from JO Sports Co, and be able to share the details of such. I still have yet to find one.

[legaleagle92481]

[quote=ChuckFoPrez;272895]

This is still America. Where we have the right to speak our mind!

I have not chimed in on the JO Sports debacle. Looks to me like they are guilty!!!!!! They made a plea in the case against them!!!!

I have never bought anything from them due to their prices and I don't really want to start collecting football.

Do I need to shut f*ck up too?

Huh? Why did you quote me?

[legaleagle92481]

[quote=camarokids;272897]

Huh? Why did you quote me?

Thats weird now it says you quoted Chuck odd.

[Preston]

This is a great example of the nonsense in this thread. When faced with numerous questions regarding your purchase in which you consider fraudulent, you deflect the questions, and follow up with ridiculous statements. This should be a fact finding thread, in which you have been personally involved with "fraud" in a purchase from JO Sports Co, and be able to share the details of such. I still have yet to find one.

Truthfully I said it to see how you'd respond. I personally could care less if you work for JO or not, or if you like JO or not. They seem to be allright guys from when I've talked to them, but the fact that Jarrod pled guilty TO FRAUD doesn't bother you or you don't think that's a bad thing is concerning...Do I think they hurt the hobby? Absolutely because they "Attempt" to monopolize it, when in actuality it sets the bar too high for a lot of collectors (not me, but a lot) when if the teams themselves marketed their OWN game used stuff, it would cut out the middleman and cause the prices to be cheaper, and hopefully have each team authenticate them themselves and eliminate the risk of having anything happen to ruin its authenticity from point A to point B. It's not JUST about price - when you buy directly from the source and cut out the middleman, you eliminate the other factors that could cause problems.

[Eric]

Lets stop name calling and focus on facts. Six people are being accused by the Department of Justice for plotting to defraud card companies and auction houses, which if you are a collector, essentially means you.

We have an actual opportunity to change things here. I feel like people are skipping over the fact that the FBI has made a detailed effort to fight fraud in our hobby. That is a pretty incredible thing.

Now, i would imagine there are people on here who can connect some of these dots between doctoring jerseys and getting them to auction houses and card companies. If you don't want to post here and want to keep your valuable information anonymous, you can email me at ecky3@aol.com

Eric

[cubbs1232]

so I'm curious everyone that has been sticking up for j o , what you think about the other 5 that have been charged?

[camarokids]

[quote=legaleagle92481;272914]

Thats weird now it says you quoted Chuck odd.

Not sure what happened. But I did click to on his quote.

I don't think anyone on here should be telling anyone to shut up.

Let's all play nice.

[3arod13]

!

[3arod13]

!

Enough said!

[schubert1970]

Now let me get this straight. You claim above that JO "fraudulently sold doctored jerseys he had knowledge of as being bad to your forum members, among others.." Are you saying that you know exactly what the alleged charges are against JO? If so, please let me know how you acquired access to that information and how you know that JO knowingly "sold doctored jerseys" to forum members. I don't think anyone on here knows exactly what the charges are and yet you seem to have access to information that no one else has access to. Please let me know how you got that information and I will be glad to discuss it further with you.

Further, you also stated "He has the feds publicly placing him in the slammer". Once again, could you please let me know how you got that information as well? I have not seen anything that publicly states JO is going to "the slammer" and yet you are publicly making this claim.

As I mentioned, I do not know exactly what the specific charges are regarding JO and I mentioned leaving the forum open for him to respond to the questions members here have posed. Obviously, there appears to be reasons JO has not made any public statements yet and I, like you, will be interested in hearing them when he does. Please correct me if I'm wrong but JO has not posted anything on the forum since the release nor has he "lied to [you] some more".

As I mentioned, the forum is open for him to respond when he is ready. Until that time, or until further, credible information is publicly released, I do not think we are in a position to make the claims you have made regarding the investigation since I do not know anyone on here knows exactly the scope of what is involved.

Again, if you have access to privileged information that none of us have here, please let us know as well as how you acquired that information. If you do have access to that information, I will be glad to address your concerns as well as your unfounded accusations regarding my actions being in direct conflict with my claims of operating with honesty and integrity.

I'm all ears Mr. Schubert?

Sincerely,
Chris

Chis - Don't take my quote out of context.

"who has been flagged by the feds as a guy who fraudulently sold doctored jerseys".

JO will have his day in court. I'm not the judge or jury.

[b.heagy]

-

[TriplexXxSports]

.

[xpress34]

The last details I heard, JO was "named" in a case in which there was fraud involving card companies. JO has not even been "directly" named. Other than that, ZERO DETAILS have been released. Until then, I will hold judgement.

JHunt -

You claim that JO has not been directly named?

JO is JARROD OLDRIDGE and he HAS been DIRECTLY named. Here's the links to ALL of the information so far that apparently hasn't been read by you or you aren't comprehending what you are reading:

The Original Article from Sports Collector's Daily website:

FBI: Six Memorabilia Dealers Charged With Fraud Involving “Hundreds of Thousands” of Dollars (http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/breaking-six-memorabilia-dealers-charged-with-fraud/)

From that article:


Federal prosecutors have charged six men with selling, consigning or auctioning jerseys to individuals--and card companies-- purported to have been worn by pro and college athletes that were never actually donned in competition.

According to the Justice Department, the cases are similar, but separate and involve doctoring jerseys to make them appear game used and re-selling them.

The four charged by information with mail fraud, indicating they may have already reached a plea agreement with prosecutors, were:

BERNARD GERNAY, a resident of New Jersey, involved in the business operations of Pro Sports Investments, Inc., a New Jersey business;

BRADLEY HORNE, a South Carolina resident, involved in the business operations of Authentic Sports Memorabilia, Inc., a South Carolina business;

JARROD OLDRIDGE, a resident of Nevada, involved in business operations of JO Sports, Inc., a Nevada business; and,

MITCHELL SCHUMACHER, a resident of Wisconsin, using the trade name MS Sports. **(Again, ALL GUU Members should read the earlier GUU thread that was linked in this thread on Mitch. As the saying goes, those who fail to learn from their past are doomed to repeat it.)**

Each mail fraud charge in these cases carries a maximum penalty of 20 years in prison, and a $250,000 maximum fine, or an alternate fine totaling twice the loss or twice the gain, whichever is greater. If convicted, the Court must impose a reasonable sentence under the advisory United States Sentencing Guidelines. **(I highlighted this because of the comments made earlier about 'going to the slammer'. This means if they are making pleas on the Mail Fraud, they are doing some type of time.)**

Here are the CHARGES against JO:

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA vs. JARROD OLDRIDGE (Violation: Title 18, United States Code) (http://www.justice.gov/usao/iln/pr/rockford/2011/pr1025_01a.pdf)

For those of you that say that no one knows what they are charged with.

And finally, here's the UPDATE from Sports Collector's Daily website:

FBI Agent: Large Numbers of Jerseys or Jersey Pieces in Evidence (http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/fbi-agent-large-numbers-of-jerseys-or-jersey-pieces-in-evidence/)

Here's highlights from that article:


The FBI says none of the six sports memorabilia dealers charged with fraud on Tuesday are facing conspiracy charges, but the accumulated total of jerseys and pieces of jerseys taken into evidence during its investigation in those cases runs into the thousands.

Mitchell Schumacher of Wisconsin (MS Sports) and Jarrod Oldridge of Nevada (JO Sports) have been charged by information with mail fraud. Investigators say each defendant represented jerseys as "game used" when they were not.

Investigators say some of the jerseys were cut up for use by sports card manufacturers. Others were sold or consigned to auctions. The FBI's Chicago office says some of them were altered to look game worn in an attempt to fool buyers who collect game jerseys and equipment.

Additional evidence being stockpiled by the FBI isn't likely to be revealed until a trial, if the cases get that far in federal court. Each case is being handled separately and the U.S. Attorney's Office isn't alleging conspiracy but the charges are so similar, the indictments were revealed together.

So, for all you JO LOVERS - since anyone on this thread who has spoken out against JO has been labeled as a HATER - what say you in light of all of this?

You guys keep saying that no one knows what JO was charged with... no one here was directly affected... we should just wait and see what the actual deal is before commenting... JO wasn't directly named...

I'm a college educated guy with a background in Loss Prevention and a collector of Sports Memorabilia for over 30 years. Although I have never had any dealings with JO and never intended to before this came to light (I'm a purely baseball guy), I still know when something is bad for the hobby as a whole (Baseball, Football, basketball, Hockey, etc) and this is BAD for the hobby.

If you can't see it from the articles referenced here, you are either blindly loyal to JO or have some kind of connection with JO that won't allow you to see the truth and you're looking at this whole deal through Rose Tinted glasses.

JO, Mitch and the others RIPPED PEOPLE OFF and have as much as admitted it by being Charged with a Criminal Information (meaning they are taking Pleas). It doesn't matter WHEN it happened - in Mitch's case, this is STRIKE TWO (he was nailed in Operation Bullpen) - or whether it happened to me, you or someone none of us knows. It still affects the hobby as a whole - and leaves it with a big black eye for all to see.

I have to laugh reading all these posts stating, 'show me proof', etc... your proof is above... JO is pleading this out because he knows the feds have him dead to rights. These include posts by - jhunt28, 34swtns, Palehose for Life and our own ChrisCavalier:

Reply to Schubert1970 (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showpost.php?p=272844&postcount=373)

Where he states:


Now let me get this straight. You claim above that JO "fraudulently sold doctored jerseys he had knowledge of as being bad to your forum members, among others.." Are you saying that you know exactly what the alleged charges are against JO? If so, please let me know how you acquired access to that information and how you know that JO knowingly "sold doctored jerseys" to forum members. I don't think anyone on here knows exactly what the charges are and yet you seem to have access to information that no one else has access to. Please let me know how you got that information and I will be glad to discuss it further with you.

I'm sorry Chris... as the OWNER of this forum, I would have though that YOU for sure would have read the entire thread and checked out any links made available.

The charges and information is all PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE which can easily be accessed - IF you really have the desire to know the truth.

The more I see these links and the information contained within (including posting them myself) and then see the naysayers - like yourself Mr Cavalier - claiming no one knows what the charges are, etc - I have to believe you are either in denial or don't really want to know.

Take whatever side you want in this battle - and yes, it is clear from this thread that this has become a battle that will no doubt divide some members of GUU - but to claim the facts aren't out there is not only ignorant, it is irresponsible to dismiss them when they been pointed out time and time again.

Do what you will with it gentlemen.

- Smitty

[Eric]

Everyone-
Please stop with the name calling and stick to the topic.

[TNTtoys]

I just got through reading the links provided by Smitty. I have a couple of questions.

1. The charges presented in the Dept of Justice documentation seems to contain all of the charges presented to the 6 dealers named by the investigation. Could it really be possible that every dealer did every one of the activities named? Or could this text have been replicated in 6 separate documents? And if so, how many of these things would JO have done (in keeping with the theme at hand)? And how many things were related to the others?

2. There are quite a few references between Oldridge and Inselberg in the document yet no other mention of the other 4 guys. What is the relationship between Oldridge and Inselberg? From what I have seen, Inselberg is related to a basketball shooting shirt whereas Oldridge sold football uniforms.

[lakeerie92]

Not getting on any side here, just posting information. Inselberg is tied to NFL memorabilia here:
http://www.justice.gov/usao/iln/pr/rockford/2011/pr1025_01c.pdf

[MiLe HigH]

Its obvious JO will never issue a statement so....Before anyone else burns anymore bridges!

[BU54CB]

jhunt28, 34swtns, Palehose for Life and our own ChrisCavalier

So because people don't agree with you or choose to exercise their freedom of choice, they have their head up their @ss?

"JO will have his day in court. I'm not the judge or jury." Seems like you may want to reconsider this statement, your posts about JO and other members contradict your statement.

[SkubeBats]

Chris,
I'm still waiting for you to answer my questions from my post #334. I have made several post asking you for some answers but you still haven't done so. I look forward to hearing what you have to say.



I have learned so far in these post that their is a small handful of guys on here I will never do any buisness with and I hope the rest of you do the same. You guys are shown the reports and you still don't see that Jarrod has ripped people and companies off. What will it take for you to see the truth about the "GREAT JARROD OLDRIDGE". He's nothing but a punk and a scam artist who should be sent away for his crimes like any other scum bag.

[TNTtoys]

Not getting on any side here, just posting information. Inselberg is tied to NFL memorabilia here:
http://www.justice.gov/usao/iln/pr/rockford/2011/pr1025_01c.pdf

Russ,

And there's my point... Inselberg's document contains all of the exact same allegations as the others. Is it really possible that every single defendant in this case:

1. bought and sold uniforms of college and pro athletes
2. sold game issued jerseys to the public as game used
3. obtained hundreds of jerseys from other sellers
4. changed jerseys' appearances by roughening, scuffing, washing, dirtying
5. resold these jerseys to sports trading card companies
6. issued fraudulent certificates of authenticity
7. used UPS specifically to ship the jerseys across state lines

Although it is presented in several legal documents, I have a real hard time believing that every defendant did everything in the list. It almost appears like a cut and paste job.

[schubert1970]

[QUOTE=BU54CB;272973]So because people don't agree with you or choose to exercise their freedom of choice, they have their head up their @ss?


No, but when you ignore some basic facts there can really be only in explanation.

[Eric]

Russ,

And there's my point... Inselberg's document contains all of the exact same allegations as the others. Is it really possible that every single defendant in this case:

1. bought and sold uniforms of college and pro athletes
2. sold game issued jerseys to the public as game used
3. obtained hundreds of jerseys from other sellers
4. changed jerseys' appearances by roughening, scuffing, washing, dirtying
5. resold these jerseys to sports trading card companies
6. issued fraudulent certificates of authenticity
7. used UPS specifically to ship the jerseys across state lines

Although it is presented in several legal documents, I have a real hard time believing that every defendant did everything in the list. It almost appears like a cut and paste job.

These are Department Of Justice official court documents. Not a cut and paste job.
Seems like either they were involved in the same scheme, or they did things in a similar way- Perhaps they all tried to sell bad items to the same card company? Perhaps all of the jerseys were doctored in the same place- Could it have been Exclusive Pro which is in Rockford, Illinois where the documents were filed? There's definitely something similar in what they did, and the ends of each document suggest relationships between some of the parties...

[lakeerie92]

Like I said, I am staying out of all of this, I just looked up the information to see if there was ties. I have owned one JO item I bought through a GUU auction, and don't collect football so I don't care to get involved with this. I definitely think the rest of the information should come out before the baby is thrown out with the bath water. There will be plenty of time to bash (or support) JO when all of the information is out there. I realize there is a lot of info already out, but the details aren't and I am waiting patiently to hear those.

[34swtns]

I have learned so far in these post that their is a small handful of guys on here I will never do any buisness with and I hope the rest of you do the same. You guys are shown the reports and you still don't see that Jarrod has ripped people and companies off. What will it take for you to see the truth about the "GREAT JARROD OLDRIDGE". He's nothing but a punk and a scam artist who should be sent away for his crimes like any other scum bag.



Are we bordering on slander? I think we are!

More importantly (that being my opinion) I don't care if somebody ripped you off. I care if they rip me off.
Since that hasn't happened, I'm still good with JO.

Self-appointed "morality sheriffs" make me laugh.

[TNTtoys]

Could it have been Exclusive Pro which is in Rockford, Illinois where the documents were filed?

I was under the impression that the FBI office was located in Rockford.

[SkubeBats]

34swtns,
I never said I was ripped off buy Jarrod or JO SPorts. I never have delt with them and I never would. I only deal in baseball not football. I can state my opinion all day long if you don't like it don't read it. I have only stated facts that are made public and you and every other person can read them. The FBI agent that contacted me today said the information we have at hand is correct and the crooks have been charged and are trying to make pleas. If you have anymore question why don't you call and ask the FBI office in Chicago.

If you like to deal with people that rips off other people go right a head it's your life and your money. I will tell you that there will be people that will never do buisness with you again just for this reason and I will be the first to say I will never deal with you no matter what. It's people like you that keep him in buisness and the chance for him to hurt more people.

So when your shown that Jarrod and the other 5 guys are guilty are you still going to deal with Jarrod or the others??

[Eric]

According to Sports Collectors Daily, the FBI's Chicago office made a statement about the case and says "The indictments were announced by Patrick J. Fitzgerald, U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Illinois and Robert Grant, Special Agent-in-Charge of the Chicago office of the FBI."

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/fbi-agent-large-numbers-of-jerseys-or-jersey-pieces-in-evidence/

[34swtns]

34swtns,
I never said I was ripped off buy Jarrod or JO SPorts. I never have delt with them and I never would. I only deal in baseball not football. I can state my opinion all day long if you don't like it don't read it. I have only stated facts that are made public and you and every other person can read them. The FBI agent that contacted me today said the information we have at hand is correct and the crooks have been charged and are trying to make pleas. If you have anymore question why don't you call and ask the FBI office in Chicago.

If you like to deal with people that rips off other people go right a head it's your life and your money. I will tell you that there will be people that will never do buisness with you again just for this reason and I will be the first to say I will never deal with you no matter what. It's people like you that keep him in buisness and the chance for him to hurt more people.

So when your shown that Jarrod and the other 5 guys are guilty are you still going to deal with Jarrod or the others??

Absolutely. Like I said, my concern extends only as far as my dealings with JO and they have been flawless.

As far as people continuing to deal with me, I only trade with a very few people here and I can guarantee you with a high degree of certainty that nothing will affect those people's trust in me, whatsoever. You and I travel in different circles and you know absolutely nothing about mine.

[xpress34]

Well, you just keep on laughing then, comedy boy.

I think I've made it abundantly clear that I couldn't give a fat rat's ass what any of you holier-than-thou hypocrites think of me.

I'm not sure how you think it's a comedy that a guy is ripping off people.

I guess murder is okay with you too as long as it isn't YOU getting killed.

I would like to know how I'm a 'holier-than-thou hypocrite' for posting the information that has been made available and for stating my opinions?

To be a hypocrite, I would have to actually be doing something that I have spoken out against. So how about you 'show me proof' where I've been a hypocrite?

And you don't need to convince me that you'll continue to support JO - regardless of their innocence or guilt. All I have said regarding that is it's not good for the hobby to keep people around that have been busted for Fraud.

My only real 'question' to you is if a seller KNOWINGLY is putting fakes in with their authentics, don't you find that a bit disturbing on some level and at the least a 'conflict of interest'?

You've made it abundantly clear that the only thing you care about here is YOU and YOUR stuff. Not the hobby, and certainly not your fellow collector.

If you and others would actually look back at my posts in this thread, I have simply tried to keep the spotlight pointed on the original intent and that was the charges against JO, Mitch and the others.

When you and others have asked for 'proof' or 'what the charges are', I have relinked the websites. The fact that Jarrod is charged with a Criminal Information indicates that HE agreed that the prosecution had enough PROOF against him, so he is copping a plea.

I could care less about what good deals any dealer has made - once I find out they are a thief, I am done with them - even if they did me right in the past.

So again, please explain how I am a hypocrite because I would really like to know what you think you know about me.

I have simply stated facts while you come here throwing out barbs and attacks on people.

Good luck with your Bears jerseys. That's not sarcasm, that's sincere.

- Smitty

[xpress34]

Russ,

And there's my point... Inselberg's document contains all of the exact same allegations as the others. Is it really possible that every single defendant in this case:

1. bought and sold uniforms of college and pro athletes
2. sold game issued jerseys to the public as game used
3. obtained hundreds of jerseys from other sellers
4. changed jerseys' appearances by roughening, scuffing, washing, dirtying
5. resold these jerseys to sports trading card companies
6. issued fraudulent certificates of authenticity
7. used UPS specifically to ship the jerseys across state lines

Although it is presented in several legal documents, I have a real hard time believing that every defendant did everything in the list. It almost appears like a cut and paste job.

TNT -

In one of the articles I linked a little earlier tonight it state that they are NOT filing conspiracy charges even though the charges against each of the defendants is nearly identical.

Just wanted to share that.

All the best -

Smitty

[gingi79]

More importantly (that being my opinion) I don't care if somebody ripped you off. I care if they rip me off.
Since that hasn't happened, I'm still good with JO.

Since you are the most outspoken defender of JO in this thread, I wonder if you will indulge me with your opinion. I noticed in the C to C ads that you have sold a couple of Bears jerseys with JO paperwork in the past couple of years. Do you have any concerns regarding your ability to do so again in the future?

[TriplexXxSports]

I was under the impression that the FBI office was located in Rockford.

Exclusive Pro is also located here in Rockford. However, it is the head office. Not a facility that works on jerseys. The jerseys are done at separate facilities.

Being that the head office is here, I am guessing that is why they refer to them as being a Rockford, Illinois company.

[TriplexXxSports]

I was under the impression that the FBI office was located in Rockford.

Scratch my post above, I completely misread this and have no EDIT options. The Federal Courthouse Building that is hosting the case is here in Rockford, Illinois.

The investigation is coming from the Chicago Offices.

[34swtns]

Since you are the most outspoken defender of JO in this thread, I wonder if you will indulge me with your opinion. I noticed in the C to C ads that you have sold a couple of Bears jerseys with JO paperwork in the past couple of years. Do you have any concerns regarding your ability to do so again in the future?


Zero.
All of the Bears collectors I deal with are as certain as I am about JO's Bears inventory, past and present.
That, and I only buy items that I've already photomatched so it's a non-issue.

I've forgotten more than most people will ever know about Bears jerseys so it would be damn near impossible to put one over on me......because I've educated myself, put in the hours and months and years into researching these items. I believe you have to assume that everyone has the potential to scam you so therefore the onus is on you to keep that from happening.
Thusly, if you get scammed.....IT'S ON YOU! You were dumb enough, (make no mistake on that wording, and be perfectly clear on the syntax.....DUMB) to get taken, you are more to blame than the seller. This is a hobby that requires a level of due dilligence and knowledge that most aren't willing or able to amass or partake in. Those people are what I like to call.........well, DUMB. If you're dumb you WILL get taken.

As for my level of concern "for the hobby", you are correct. I don't give a rip if you get scammed. My level of concern runs as deep as the deals I make and nothing else. I'm not interested in being a member of the "hobby police force", there's enough of you amateur Barney Fife's out there taking on that role.
Have at it. I'm just the only one here man enough and honest enough to state that in public and not give a damn if anybody's panties get ruffled by it. At all.

And finally, regarding my choice to continue to do business with so-called "questionable dealers", as I said before, until I get screwed (and that's absolutely not going to happen because of the aforementioned education) it's business as usual.
If you steal money from your grandma's purse and are involved in a Madoff-like pyramid scheme but you have a Bears jersey I'm looking for, you might get some of my money too.
Once again, I'm just the only one here honest enough to say that.

Fellas, as much fun as I have poking a turd with a stick, I'm getting weary of this whole discussion. You know where I stand, you're absolutely not going to affect my position with your amateur sleuthing, your "expert legal opinions" and your self-anointed character judgements.
I simply do not care what you think. You watch your shiz and I'll watch mine.

Carry on your debate. I'm out.

[ChrisCavalier]

There will be plenty of time to bash (or support) JO when all of the information is out there. I realize there is a lot of info already out, but the details aren't and I am waiting patiently to hear those.
It is amazing to me that others cannot see the how logical this statement is.

Amazingly, I have personally been accused on this thread of denying there has been any wrongdoing when that simply is not the case. I have stated I do not know all the details of what the charges are and am leaving the forum open to JO so he can respond to the questions here if he choses to do so. That is being done since it is apparent NO ONE on the forum knows exactly what the charges are against him specifically.

I am interested in hearing his response just like everyone else who cares to know. Further, unlike Jamie Schultz who has stated "He's nothing but a punk and a scam artist who should be sent away for his crimes like any other scum bag", I do have the luxury of knowing Jarrod personally and I can tell you that I do not see him as a "punk", "scam artist" or "scum bag". Those that actually know Jarrod personally can feel free to post to the contrary if they like but that is not my opinion of him. While I would not condone any wrongdoing, I am interested in understanding the exact charges and the details so I can make an educated assessment of the situation. Apparently, since I am not ready to burn him at the stake and ban him so he cannot respond to the questions here, I have my head up my butt and am in denial as Bill Schubert has so graphically has put it.

To be clear, I am leaving the forum open to JO so he can respond the questions posed here by the members. That is not a statement that I am defending him or denying there has been any wrongdoing. I simply think there are some here who, like Russell, are astute enough to want to hear the details from a primary source, not the speculations and rants of people who are not privy to that information.

Again, I am not leaving the forum open to JO because I am defending him or do not believe there has been any wrondoing. I am leaving the forum open to him to respond so those that care to know the details will be able to know. If JO does not answer those questions but comes on to make offers to members than we will address that as a matter of principle. However, I doubt that is going to happen.

I will close with a thought from a teenager who recently told me his thoughts about people posting comments on the internet. This person, like most in his generation has been born and bred on the internet and lives in that world, told me 75% of people posting on the internet are trolls who simply look to sit behind their computers and try to cause trouble. Though I know less about the internet than his generation, I refuse to believe that statement. However, I will say that some of the posts on this thread, like those from someone who has never even met JO yet call him a "punk", "scam artist" and "scumbag", as well as those claiming educated people have their heads up their butts, seem to fit in that category.

Oh, and as for any questions based on "what ifs", I can assure you GUU will continue to operate, as always, with the utmost integrity and that all its administrative actions will be consistent with that objective once all the details are disclosed.

Sincerely,
Chris

[coxfan]

I've avoided posting on this topic because I'm a firm believer in due process. For the same reason, I ignore the sensationalized "show trials" and the like that appear so often in the media.

My personal history includes several leadership positions in which I have had close knowledge of various media-sensationalized situations. (Though fortunately I've never been the subject of one). I've not yet seen a single such situation in which the media accounts weren't "edited" significantly. Usually this is done to sensationalize, though often such editing is done to support a political agenda (from either the left or the right).

So I am 100 % in agreement with Chris's position, and I greatly value this forum.

[SkubeBats]

Chris,
Your something! All the charges are made public and if you need more anwers contact the FBI Office in Chicago. You say your not standing up for Jarrod but that's not how it sounds or looks like, ask your forum members.

People that have been proven to sell fake or shaddy items were banned. Now we have 6 people that have been charge in federal court and 4 of these guys are pleading out their cases. To me how much clearer does it have to be. They should be banned right on the spot. The others in the past didn't have federal charges against them. It was one guys word against another and they were banned. SO DO THE RIGHT THING HERE!!!!

If you don't like what I have to say about banning these guys put up a poll on GUU and see what the members have to say about it.......

You can keep posting on here and read my post but you still haven't answered my questions from before. PLEASE LOOK AT POST #334 AND ANSWER THOSE QUESTION FOR ME......

It's my opinion that people that rip people off are scum bags and low lifes if they fit that profile then it's a perfect fit in my book. You only have like less then 5 people on here standing up for these guys and the rest of us can see the light why can't you guys.

__________________________________________________ ___________


__________________________________________________ ___________

I commend a lot of you guys on here for standing up and fighting for what's right. I know most of you guys are stand up people but there is a few that aren't. I wish we could rid these people of our hobby but we can't so we have to live with these people. I for one will never deal with some of these guys and I hope you do the same.

__________________________________________________ ____________

I want to thank all of you that has sent me private emails about all of this. It's good to know that I have so many people on here that like what I'm doing to rid our hobby of the bad guys that are out there. I will keep up the fight as long as I'm in the hobby.

[BU54CB]

[quote=BU54CB;272973]So because people don't agree with you or choose to exercise their freedom of choice, they have their head up their @ss?


No, but when you ignore some basic facts there can really be only in explanation.

Actually, I don't believe people are ignoring the facts, to the contrary, people seem pretty well informed. I think your problem is that despite the information, people are choosing to still do business with JO. That's really none of your business.

34swtns seems well aware of the facts but will continue to purchase Bears jerseys from JO based upon his criteria to determine the authenticity of his purchases. I don't blame him, I've purchased 5 Bears jerseys from JO as well that I have photomatched and am satisfied. If JO has something I want and I can verify its authenticity to my satisfaction, I will buy from them again as well.

[dcgreg25]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and allowed to share that opinion. However personal attacks will not be tolerated and have no place here. I have deleted about a dozen posts this morning alone on this thread. State an opinion or even disagree with others but do so within the forum rules so this thread is actually readable. For those of you who have forgotten, the rules state:

No Personal Attacks. Do not harass, belittle, threaten or “flame” another member. Do not call other members names, even in jest. You may dispute opinions and facts, but do so with facts and not by taking it to a personal level. This forum is intended to operate in a positive environment. Please help us achieve that goal.

Any more posts on this thread that violate this rule will be deleted and result in potential further actions. If you cannot make a post without personally attacking someone save your time and do not post. Thanks.

[SkubeBats]

So Chris now your calling most of us "TROLLS" because we stand up for what we beleive in. I will always post on here when I find someone that isn't good for the hobby. I will make post on here to state my feellings or my thoughts. Sorry if the truth hurts. By the way I don't have to know Jarrod like you to make up my mind on what kind of guy he realy is. If you can't see it I feel bad for you.

[SaintsGeaux]

I really didn't want to post again on this subject until we heard from Mr. Oldridge or a final declaration of the charges.

Then I read ChrisCavalier's 4:03 AM post today. This quote baffled my mind "..I DO HAVE THE LUXURY OF KNOWING JARROD PERSONALLY..."

Mr. Cavalier, a famous psychiatrist once said, "you may think you know others that are close to you, and you really see a vision of them of how they want you to see them". Perception is not reality. That was actually a statement made about divorcing a loved one.

The word LUXURY you chose is defined in the Merriam-Webster dictionary as "an indulgence in something that provides pleasure, satisfaction, or ease".

It is a curious phrasing of words.

If Mr. Oldridge is exonerated, he should be grateful for that statement.

[BU54CB]

So Chris now your calling most of us "TROLLS" because we stand up for what we beleive in. I will always post on here when I find someone that isn't good for the hobby. I will make post on here to state my feellings or my thoughts. Sorry if the truth hurts. By the way I don't have to know Jarrod like you to make up my mind on what kind of guy he realy is. If you can't see it I feel bad for you.

Actually, you are incorrect, Chris didn't call anyone here a troll. If you aren't trolling, then you should be concerned with Chris' story.

[BU54CB]

Actually, you are incorrect, Chris didn't call anyone here a troll. If you aren't trolling, then you should be concerned with Chris' story.


Sorry, if you aren't trolling, then you shouldn't be concerned with Chris' story.

[SkubeBats]

He did so call some of us "TROLLS". Read it again..........

All were doing is trying to rid our hobby of trouble makers, scum bags, and forgers.... If you guys don't like what were doing then good luck to you down the road when someone rips you off. I better not hear from you on this site about your troubles then!


CHRIS,
Once again I ask you to answer my question from my post #334. I would like to hear what you have to say. I've made several post asking you to answer my questions but for some reason you won't. I evern sent you an email asking you to answer my questions but I still haven't heard from you. WHY IS THAT??

[ChrisCavalier]

So Chris now your calling most of us "TROLLS" because we stand up for what we beleive in.
Let's be very clear Jamie. I am not calling most of the people on the forum trolls. I am calling YOU a troll.

Here are the reasons for my statement:

1) You post that you have a "friend" with confidential information who "think[s] if they will post you will get mad and ban them like anyone else." I then stated no one has ever been banned for any reason other than the fact that they violated the forum rules and, just to make sure they are clear, I gave my personal guarantee that they will not be banned if they state their opinions in accordance with the forum rules. Yet, this "friend" of yours has not posted anything that I can see.

2) You state "I was asked by one of your moderates to ask you some questions as I did. I know he should stand up and say something but he won't. He's the one with information not me. I don't know anything more then the rest of you." Yet, when I asked the moderators, none of them said this statement is correct. Therefore, either you or this presumed moderator is not telling the truth. To be very candid, given what I know about all the moderators as well as what I am seeing from you, my money is on the moderators telling the truth.

3) We now see how you "want to thank all of you that has sent me private emails about all of this. It's good to know that I have so many people on here that like what I'm doing to rid our hobby of the bad guys that are out there." Why do they need to send private emails? They can post it here. If you haven't been banned certainly they can't be afraid of being banned as you so adamently claim. Please tell all of these people they can feel free to post how they like what you are doing here. Better yet, I'll tell them myself. Hello everyone sending these private emails to Jamie. Please feel free to post that you like what Jamie is doing here. There will be no reprecussions for you stating your opinion.

In addition, regarding your question about answering your questions in post #334, I have already done so. Here is the relevant information from my last post:

"as for any questions based on "what ifs", I can assure you GUU will continue to operate, as always, with the utmost integrity and that all its administrative actions will be consistent with that objective once all the details are disclosed."

Dude, your tactics are so transparent they are almost absurd. I have stated why JO is being allowed to post and that is for the sole reason of explaining things here if he choses to do so. I have no interest in discussing this further with someone that seems to have no purpose but to try to create controversy.

Sincerely,
Chris

[SkubeBats]

I come on here and try to do best for the hobby and I get blasted for it. I do favor for other people and I look like the bad guy. Yes, there is one of your moderators that's not telling you the truth!! I've had enough here maybe Andrew Lang could stand up for once and come on here and tell everyone what you told me and asked me to do. So I don't look like the bad guy. Now you know everything hope your happy now...

[34swtns]

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i56/34swtns/Barney.jpg http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i56/34swtns/Gladys.jpg

[zooat2]

- This entire thread has gotten really sad...

[allstarsplus]

I come on here and try to do best for the hobby and I get blasted for it. I do favor for other people and I look like the bad guy. Yes, there is one of your moderators that's not telling you the truth!! I've had enough here maybe Andrew Lang could stand up for once and come on here and tell everyone what you told me and asked me to do. So I don't look like the bad guy. Now you know everything hope your happy now...

Jamie, not sure why you are pushing this. I sent this to Chris and the other Moderators yesterday.

As I told you, I don't want to be involved and don't need to be involved as I try to stay neutral unless I am involved in it personally. My initial email was about your post to a Redskins posting. You sent me to the Extreme Skins site. I told you I had some information but didn't want to post publicly. Later I told you other people covered that information.

I sent this to you in response to your email on Oct 30th at 11:22am and I think if it is taken in context, I was saying you should post your questions on that 11:22am email.

This was my statement to you:

"I think if he is found guilty of fraud by conviction or a plea deal he should be banned but that is me, I don't own the GUU. Maybe you can post that as a question to Chris. "

[legaleagle92481]

Wow this thread has gotten sad. We as collectors should focus our time on cleaning up the hobby and not fighting amongst each other. We are grown men and women we should all be above attacking each other and each other's actions and opinions.

[SkubeBats]

Andrew,
I asked some questions you brought up and I had. Thats all. You told me some inofrmation and then you told me the were other that new more. I just did and said what we talked about. I asked you many times to stand up and say something. I understand that somethings you told me were cover by other posts but some wasn't. I never dragged you into this until I started to get blasted for things we both were wondering. Sorry I brought you into this but I'm not going to get me name dragged through the mud for trying to do the right thing.

I will stay out of this from here on out. But if my name or my thoughts are brought into question I will respond.

[dplettn]

I'd be (only nearly, apparently) the last person in the world to defend JO. Having said that, I want to applaud Chris for not censoring the board via banning or closing the thread and instead inviting information of all types.

I myself had an interaction with JO, and for some time the historic thread about my own interaction was closed in such a fashion that I feared the worst about the forum's neutrality.

Ultimately, while my own opinions and observations have been and continue to be quite negative about what is (or was) the JO business (even without presuming fraud), I'm proud as a GUU member to observe that Chris and GUU are handling this flare up within this particular thread in quite a tolerant fashion.

Whether any of us enjoy reading the flare up (and I don't), its important to realize that whenever there is a flare on any subject the truth will be equally apparent to all observers who can assess the situation wholly.



Let's be very clear Jamie. I am not calling most of the people on the forum trolls. I am calling YOU a troll.

Here are the reasons for my statement:

1) You post that you have a "friend" with confidential information who "think[s] if they will post you will get mad and ban them like anyone else." I then stated no one has ever been banned for any reason other than the fact that they violated the forum rules and, just to make sure they are clear, I gave my personal guarantee that they will not be banned if they state their opinions in accordance with the forum rules. Yet, this "friend" of yours has not posted anything that I can see.

2) You state "I was asked by one of your moderates to ask you some questions as I did. I know he should stand up and say something but he won't. He's the one with information not me. I don't know anything more then the rest of you." Yet, when I asked the moderators, none of them said this statement is correct. Therefore, either you or this presumed moderator is not telling the truth. To be very candid, given what I know about all the moderators as well as what I am seeing from you, my money is on the moderators telling the truth.

3) We now see how you "want to thank all of you that has sent me private emails about all of this. It's good to know that I have so many people on here that like what I'm doing to rid our hobby of the bad guys that are out there." Why do they need to send private emails? They can post it here. If you haven't been banned certainly they can't be afraid of being banned as you so adamently claim. Please tell all of these people they can feel free to post how they like what you are doing here. Better yet, I'll tell them myself. Hello everyone sending these private emails to Jamie. Please feel free to post that you like what Jamie is doing here. There will be no reprecussions for you stating your opinion.

In addition, regarding your question about answering your questions in post #334, I have already done so. Here is the relevant information from my last post:

"as for any questions based on "what ifs", I can assure you GUU will continue to operate, as always, with the utmost integrity and that all its administrative actions will be consistent with that objective once all the details are disclosed."

Dude, your tactics are so transparent they are almost absurd. I have stated why JO is being allowed to post and that is for the sole reason of explaining things here if he choses to do so. I have no interest in discussing this further with someone that seems to have no purpose but to try to create controversy.

Sincerely,
Chris

[Mattfedo01]

I have noticed on JO's website that Michael Vick is no longer on the homepage when you first enter the website....and also mikevick.com used to have a link that takes you right to josports website to purchase his items, and that link has been pulled...do you think vick is no longer with them??? They still do have his items but you have to search for them.

[SaintsGeaux]

Let's be very clear Jamie. I am not calling most of the people on the forum trolls. I am calling YOU a troll.


Sincerely,
Chris

ChrisCavalier, has someone cyber-hacked your password and hijacked your handle because this is startling to read if you actually wrote this.

Doesn't this violate some of your own Forum rules?

[SaintsGeaux]

- This entire thread has gotten really sad...

That sums it up in so many ways.

[gingi79]

For the first time, I am at a loss for words. A thread about 6 people the FBI investigated for fraud contains more damaging information about unaffiliated collectors than the accused! How can it be that JO will come out of this with less need for damage control than half a dozen of the members of this site?

I have plenty of opinions about this case, those who defend and those who accuse and the blatant disregard and double standards illustrated in this thread but I'm not screaming at the ocean. I refuse to indulge in the deflective tactics and crass commentary. I will say however that Jamie isn't wrong about some of the inflammatory things he wrote and this thread can only continue to negatively affect this hobby.

In my humble opinion, isn't it time to shut this down? Has anyone grown as a collector, learned something positive or enhanced the hobby for the last 50 pages? Leaving it open in the hopes JO will comment in posts we all know are never coming has only allowed further scars to develop, feelings to be hurt and collectors to lose trust and faith in each other and this site.

[Jags Fan Dan]

An unfortunate situation is becoming worse with the in-fighting. Lets all try to keep our cool.

[nickacs]

In my humble opinion, isn't it time to shut this down?

I posted this about 15 pages ago and still say there's about 40/46 pages of useless arguments/personal attacks/garbage that isn't doing a thing for this thread.
I respectively agree, this forum is for the open opinions/comments of anyone, but I think it's WELL known the subject of this thread and the continuing bantering back/forth is literally just taking up space.

Until there is more actual more news/facts presented to the public, I personally just to see the continuation of this thread??? There's been NO new updates since the OP post day? LOL...

[nickacs]

Until there is more actual more news/facts presented to the public, I personally just don't see the continuation of this thread??? There's been NO new updates since the OP post day? LOL...

EDIT feature please!!!

[3arod13]

isn't it time to shut this down? Has anyone grown as a collector, learned something positive or enhanced the hobby for the last 50 pages? Leaving it open in the hopes JO will comment in posts we all know are never coming has only allowed further scars to develop, feelings to be hurt and collectors to lose trust and faith in each other and this site.

Well said! It's honest timely to close this thread!

[3arod13]

Well said! It's honest timely to close this thread!


Well said! It's honestly time to close this thread!

[ChrisCavalier]

Well said! It's honestly time to close this thread!
I agree. We are closing this thread. If anyone has any relevant information that would be useful to the collecting community and would like to share it, please forward it using the "Contact Forum Moderator" link and we will be happy to review it and post it if it is beneficial to the community.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts on this matter.

Sincerely,
Chris