Is this ethical?

**jon_8_us** · 09-20-2006, 07:07 PM

Re: Is this ethical?

Get it authenticated.Easy as that.If it comes back no good then you have a 30$ Yankees jersey.If it comes back good you have a steal of a lifetime!
jon

**staindsox** · 09-20-2006, 07:16 PM

Re: Is this ethical?

I would suggest getting it authenticated. I would personally find it to be unethical BUYING it from a yard sale for $30 and then SELLING it as game used. I wouldn't know if I would say anything if you were going to just keep it. It's turning a large PROFIT on it that I would think to be unethical... and that's for the yard sale scenario. I'm not sure what I think about it if you were to buy it from a dealer.

Chris

**trsent** · 09-20-2006, 07:41 PM

Re: Is this ethical?

A former commissioner of baseball lived in my hometown of Lake Forest, IL at the time of his passing. When I opened my retail store in Lake Forest in 1990 people would come in and tell me about the garage sale they had after his death in the 1970s.

You would buy a grab bag baseball for around $20.00 and get a Babe Ruth autographed baseball or a Ty Cobb autographed baseball. I wish I remembered more details, but that would have been a fun sale to attend.

**both-teams-played-hard** · 09-20-2006, 08:01 PM

Re: Is this ethical?

It is very likely to buy a real game used jersey on the second hand market (thrift store, flea market, yard sale). It doesn't matter who authenticates it, A legit jersey authenticates itself. The source does not matter. There are many game used treasures on eBay that are found at thrift stores and not advertised as such. I see the items sell and end up at the auction houses(tons).
To all y'all who say "get it authenticated": by who? I think Rudy could authenticate his own jersey.

**otismalibu** · 09-20-2006, 08:05 PM

Re: Is this ethical?

To all y'all who say "get it authenticated": by who? I think Rudy could authenticate his own jersey.

Ah...but he's missing the "impeccable source".

**kingjammy24** · 09-20-2006, 10:51 PM

Re: Is this ethical?

some interesting comments so far.

jon: if, through my own analysis, i've already determined that all the specs on the jersey match up properly, then i'm unsure what use there would be for an authenticator?
if i've determined they match up, would it be ethical to make the leap in calling it "game used"?

chris: i'm curious why you find turning a large profit to be unethical? or why it's unethical to find something at a yard sale for $30, realize it's a gamer, and then sell it for $4k?

lets say you came across an ebay listing where some guy posted a bat and said "i found this old piece of wood in my deceased uncle's attic. i have no clue what it is" and it had a buy it now of $10. after considerable research, john taube and mike specht told you they were positive that it was a 1956 mantle game used bat. would it be unethical of you to buy it for $10 and resell it for $10k?

warren: bingo. if you can fix cars, you have no need for a mechanic and if you understand jerseys, you have no need for an authenticator. so i'm assuming you feel the first scenario is ethical? what about the second one of buying a "game issued", finding use on it, and reselling it as "game used"?

rudy.

**staindsox** · 09-20-2006, 11:25 PM

Re: Is this ethical?

I consider it unethical to turn a profit in the case of the yard sale because I believe it is taking advantage of a person's ignorance. I am still unsure what I would do if I bought the item from a dealer, because sports would be his area of expertise. I can offer you an example. I used to collect Honus Wagner cards. I once purchased a Wagner supplement for $16, similar to the yard sale scenario. It turns out that the premium was an original worth in excess of $500. If I had bought it at a card show, it would be one thing, but taking it from an older woman who did not know any better was a completely different scenario. I thought it would have been taking advantage, so I returned the photo and explained its value to the owner. I am sure some on this board think I'm crazy. I felt so too at the time. But I felt it would have been wrong to keep the photo. For me, just because I could have legally kept the photo does not necessarily mean it is morally right. Those are my values. I'm not questioning anyone else, I'm not going to argue with anyone, but from my point of view, I could not turn a profit and feel I had been honest. Just my experience and opinion.

Chris

**trsent** · 09-20-2006, 11:34 PM

Re: Is this ethical?

Originally posted by staindsox

I consider it unethical to turn a profit in the case of the yard sale because I believe it is taking advantage of a person's ignorance. I am still unsure what I would do if I bought the item from a dealer, because sports would be his area of expertise. I can offer you an example. I used to collect Honus Wagner cards. I once purchased a Wagner supplement for $16, similar to the yard sale scenario. It turns out that the premium was an original worth in excess of $500. If I had bought it at a card show, it would be one thing, but taking it from an older woman who did not know any better was a completely different scenario. I thought it would have been taking advantage, so I returned the photo and explained its value to the owner. I am sure some on this board think I'm crazy. I felt so too at the time. But I felt it would have been wrong to keep the photo. For me, just because I could have legally kept the photo does not necessarily mean it is morally right. Those are my values. I'm not questioning anyone else, I'm not going to argue with anyone, but from my point of view, I could not turn a profit and feel I had been honest. Just my experience and opinion.

Chris

Chris, I understand your concern, but at the same time, if they set a price they are asking, it doesn't matter if the item is worth 5 times, 50 times or 1000 times more because if you bought them item and it was worth 10 times less than you paid would the seller offer you a refund?

It is a gamble when you buy it, so you take the risk and then can reap the rewards. That is how fair trade works in our society.

**staindsox** · 09-20-2006, 11:59 PM

Re: Is this ethical?

Joel, I think you missed the point of my reply. It has nothing to do with what our society's rules are. My moral and ethical standards would not allow me to keep something when I felt it was wrongly obtained. It is a personal belief. Laws have nothing to do with personal ethics.

**both-teams-played-hard** · 09-21-2006, 12:21 AM

Re: Is this ethical?

Originally posted by kingjammy24

what about the second one of buying a "game issued", finding use on it, and reselling it as "game used"?

That is a tough call. My knowledge of jerseys goes before the invention of the term "game issued". I know very little about modern jerseys. I collect basketball jerseys, and most of the newer ones on the market have little or no wear. I have bought jerseys from many reputable sources that have very light wear. They were still advertised as "game worn". I believe anything older than 1986, that could not be bought in a store is classified as "game worn/used". THIS IS MY OPINION. I also only collect common players or semi-stars to be safe. I would never alter a jersey or "add" wear to deceive.

Staindsox (Chris),
I admire your values. However, if you collect Honus Wagner cards, keeping the card for your collection would NOT be unethical.

**DonTheLegend** · 09-21-2006, 12:41 AM

Re: Is this ethical?

Originally posted by kingjammy24

a couple of hypothetical questions regarding ethnical behavior:

2) let's say, in this example, i purchase a jersey as "game issued" from a team or dealer. upon examining the jersey, i find obvious signs of wear. is it wrong to then turn around and sell the jersey as "game used" in light of this wear? is it wrong to assume the seller made an error?

interested in people's responses.

rudy.

back in December i sold a Scott Rolen, home, 2004 World Series cap on Ebay.

i purchased the cap from a yearly Cardinals sponsored auction and the item was described as game used. however, it showed little wear and seamed to be a bit on the large side (to me. i wear a 7 3/8......im 5' 10") as it was a 7 1/2, i believe. it also had his number written under the bill and was autographed.

ive bought dozens and dozens of things from this annual event over the years and each year many players will bring in items (to auction) and sign autographs. all have been great items and i have never had any authentication issues when ive sent items in.

i truley wasnt sure if this , in fact, was game used. like i stated, it was purchased as "game used" and therefore i sold the item exactly as it was described to me by the team and its reps.

i got hammered by a couple of guys, but still felt that the word of the team was more reliable than the opinion of a collector. a gentleman wrote that this hat was not game used and that he had several Rolen hats from his days in Philly and that they were all 7 1/4". not that my sole opinion should matter, but i find that hard to beleive. i have several other hats from many players and by comparison, they all seem relative in size to each players height and body size. i felt that a person of Scotts height and weight would possibly warrent this particular size and tried to find examples of his hats, but had no luck.

i didnt (and dont) feel bad about the sale or the representation of this item as , again, this is what the team had said it was. and , to me, if i cant believe the team, then who can i believe?

im sure to get beat up on this, but as a long time "collector" i would never purposely misrepresent an item if im going to sell or trade it and i certainly want to do my part in keeping the integrity of the hobby as high as it can possibly be.

**trsent** · 09-21-2006, 12:50 AM

Re: Is this ethical?

Originally posted by staindsox

Joel, I think you missed the point of my reply. It has nothing to do with what our society's rules are. My moral and ethical standards would not allow me to keep something when I felt it was wrongly obtained. It is a personal belief. Laws have nothing to do with personal ethics.

Chris, I didn't mean laws of our country...I meant laws of common sense.

I think it is great you have your beliefs, but let me tell you about a tricky situation I once had.

Maybe 14 years ago I walk into my store and see my business partner going through a pile of blankets with baseball players on the front. I was unsure what they were myself so I called a business associate with much more experience than I.

He walked me through these B18 Blankets, and helped me buy part of the deal. He said, pay $50.00 for Jackson (yes, Joe) and so on. I bought about $700.00 worth of blankets and never saw the lady again. Later I heard when she got a quote on the remaining from a store down the road she took it. I have since stopped making offers when I am told they are going to shop for the best price, because I find usually the last person to make an offer gets the deal if they are close.

Now, a month later I'm sitting outside smoking a cigarette at a card show with the guy who helped me buy the blankets. I asked if he wanted to see them, as he didn't even remember talking to me on the phone about the collection.

I took them out and he looked at them and said, "I'll pay you $8000.00 for this lot".

What could I do now? I took the money, but I wondered why he low-balled me on the phone when I was making what I thought was a reasonable offer to the lady.

Did I do anything wrong? I don't think so. Back then we didn't take names, but if I did, would I be responsible to call the lady and give her more money because I was mislead? She was happy to sell me the lot for $700.00. Makes you wonder.

One more and I'm going to bed...

There was a Lindy Lindstrom 1932 Carmel that was offered to me (it later sold at auction for a record price as it was the only one ever offered without a punch-hole) that the guy mailed me full color copies and though I had never heard of the card, I wanted to buy when I made a few phone calls.

One friend told me to offer $20,000.00 and see what happens. Now, I did this and the guy (who read an article that since one without a hole-punch was worth a million dollars) turned me down. He didn't want me to fly to him in Arizona and take the card to PSA and have it authenticated, so I was in a bad place as I couldn't middle the consignment either.

I still didn't know if I would make money if I paid $20,000.00, but I tried to offer to give him $20,000.00 as collateral and take a percentage of any profits we receive, but someone came in with a better offer and I lost the deal. Remember, I still had no idea what the card was worth but my gut told me to gamble.

Now, why I bring this up is because what if he agreed to take the 20K and the card was mine?

When it sold at major auction for a price I cannot remember (maybe someone can find it) it went for over $100,000.00 - maybe even $200,000.00. So what would I have had to do? Send the guy a Christmas card and gift every year for life or send him a check for whatever amount so I can sleep better at night?

I don't know. When I have paid large sums of money for merchandise that tanked, no one refunded me my losses. When I bought $25,000.00 in Penny Hardaway jerseys from Upper Deck Authenticated and sold them for around $5.000.00, no one was feeling my sorrow.

Business is business, but the fine lines in these situations do not always make buying from someone who gives you an amazing deal an unethical person.

**metsbats** · 09-21-2006, 07:23 AM

Re: Is this ethical?

Chris,

I feel the same way about this as you do. In fact I was going to turn the question around and ask is it ethnical to buy an item for less knowng it's true value from an ignorant (non-informed) seller. In the laws of business and money it's economically ethnical but within the laws of human nature it may not be (to some folks). The answer is it depends on the buyer.

Classic example is the Tom Seaver game used flannel that was supposedly picked up for $2 at a yard sale many years ago and was of course auctioned off for tens of thousands.

In summary some of us are in the hobby to make a quick buck while some of us are truly in it for love of the game. Same idea applies to life itself.

David

**metsbats** · 09-21-2006, 07:24 AM

Re: Is this ethical?

Originally posted by metsbats

Chris,

I feel the same way about this as you do. In fact I was going to turn the question around and ask is it ethnical to buy an item for less knowng it's true value from an ignorant (non-informed) seller. In the laws of business and money it's economically ethnical but within the laws of human nature it may not be (to some folks). The answer is it depends on the buyer.

Classic example is the Tom Seaver game used flannel that was supposedly picked up for $2 at a yard sale many years ago and was of course auctioned off for tens of thousands.

In summary some of us are in the hobby to make a quick buck while some of us are truly in it for love of the game. Same idea applies to life itself.

David

"ethical' Should have had my first cup of coffee before posting this!

Is this ethical?

Is this ethical?

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