Is this ethical?

[kingjammy24]

a couple of hypothetical questions regarding ethnical behavior:

1) let's say i find a yankees jersey at an estate sale or yard sale. the jersey has no documentation and the seller has no clue what it is or how they came to acquire it. they just found it in the attic. they're just selling it as a "baseball jersey - $30". after doing a considerable amount of research, i conclude that the specs of the jersey match perfectly to, let's say, 1990 yankees pro game jerseys. the jersey has the number 23 on the back. everything appears original and unaltered. to my eyes, the jersey shows signs of wear. ethically speaking, would it be proper to sell the jersey as a "don mattingly game worn jersey"? (please don't email me asking how much for the mattingly. i don't have one, this is all hypothetical). would it be wrong to sell it as a "don mattingly game worn jersey"? what should it be sold as?

2) let's say, in this example, i purchase a jersey as "game issued" from a team or dealer. upon examining the jersey, i find obvious signs of wear. is it wrong to then turn around and sell the jersey as "game used" in light of this wear? is it wrong to assume the seller made an error?

interested in people's responses.

rudy.

[jon_8_us]

Get it authenticated.Easy as that.If it comes back no good then you have a 30$ Yankees jersey.If it comes back good you have a steal of a lifetime!
jon

[staindsox]

I would suggest getting it authenticated. I would personally find it to be unethical BUYING it from a yard sale for $30 and then SELLING it as game used. I wouldn't know if I would say anything if you were going to just keep it. It's turning a large PROFIT on it that I would think to be unethical... and that's for the yard sale scenario. I'm not sure what I think about it if you were to buy it from a dealer.

Chris

[trsent]

A former commissioner of baseball lived in my hometown of Lake Forest, IL at the time of his passing. When I opened my retail store in Lake Forest in 1990 people would come in and tell me about the garage sale they had after his death in the 1970s.

You would buy a grab bag baseball for around $20.00 and get a Babe Ruth autographed baseball or a Ty Cobb autographed baseball. I wish I remembered more details, but that would have been a fun sale to attend.

[both-teams-played-hard]

It is very likely to buy a real game used jersey on the second hand market (thrift store, flea market, yard sale). It doesn't matter who authenticates it, A legit jersey authenticates itself. The source does not matter. There are many game used treasures on eBay that are found at thrift stores and not advertised as such. I see the items sell and end up at the auction houses(tons).
To all y'all who say "get it authenticated": by who? I think Rudy could authenticate his own jersey.

[otismalibu]

To all y'all who say "get it authenticated": by who? I think Rudy could authenticate his own jersey.

Ah...but he's missing the "impeccable source".

[kingjammy24]

some interesting comments so far.

jon: if, through my own analysis, i've already determined that all the specs on the jersey match up properly, then i'm unsure what use there would be for an authenticator?
if i've determined they match up, would it be ethical to make the leap in calling it "game used"?

chris: i'm curious why you find turning a large profit to be unethical? or why it's unethical to find something at a yard sale for $30, realize it's a gamer, and then sell it for $4k?

lets say you came across an ebay listing where some guy posted a bat and said "i found this old piece of wood in my deceased uncle's attic. i have no clue what it is" and it had a buy it now of $10. after considerable research, john taube and mike specht told you they were positive that it was a 1956 mantle game used bat. would it be unethical of you to buy it for $10 and resell it for $10k?

warren: bingo. if you can fix cars, you have no need for a mechanic and if you understand jerseys, you have no need for an authenticator. so i'm assuming you feel the first scenario is ethical? what about the second one of buying a "game issued", finding use on it, and reselling it as "game used"?


rudy.

[staindsox]

I consider it unethical to turn a profit in the case of the yard sale because I believe it is taking advantage of a person's ignorance. I am still unsure what I would do if I bought the item from a dealer, because sports would be his area of expertise. I can offer you an example. I used to collect Honus Wagner cards. I once purchased a Wagner supplement for $16, similar to the yard sale scenario. It turns out that the premium was an original worth in excess of $500. If I had bought it at a card show, it would be one thing, but taking it from an older woman who did not know any better was a completely different scenario. I thought it would have been taking advantage, so I returned the photo and explained its value to the owner. I am sure some on this board think I'm crazy. I felt so too at the time. But I felt it would have been wrong to keep the photo. For me, just because I could have legally kept the photo does not necessarily mean it is morally right. Those are my values. I'm not questioning anyone else, I'm not going to argue with anyone, but from my point of view, I could not turn a profit and feel I had been honest. Just my experience and opinion.

Chris

[trsent]

I consider it unethical to turn a profit in the case of the yard sale because I believe it is taking advantage of a person's ignorance. I am still unsure what I would do if I bought the item from a dealer, because sports would be his area of expertise. I can offer you an example. I used to collect Honus Wagner cards. I once purchased a Wagner supplement for $16, similar to the yard sale scenario. It turns out that the premium was an original worth in excess of $500. If I had bought it at a card show, it would be one thing, but taking it from an older woman who did not know any better was a completely different scenario. I thought it would have been taking advantage, so I returned the photo and explained its value to the owner. I am sure some on this board think I'm crazy. I felt so too at the time. But I felt it would have been wrong to keep the photo. For me, just because I could have legally kept the photo does not necessarily mean it is morally right. Those are my values. I'm not questioning anyone else, I'm not going to argue with anyone, but from my point of view, I could not turn a profit and feel I had been honest. Just my experience and opinion.

Chris

Chris, I understand your concern, but at the same time, if they set a price they are asking, it doesn't matter if the item is worth 5 times, 50 times or 1000 times more because if you bought them item and it was worth 10 times less than you paid would the seller offer you a refund?

It is a gamble when you buy it, so you take the risk and then can reap the rewards. That is how fair trade works in our society.

[staindsox]

Joel, I think you missed the point of my reply. It has nothing to do with what our society's rules are. My moral and ethical standards would not allow me to keep something when I felt it was wrongly obtained. It is a personal belief. Laws have nothing to do with personal ethics.

[both-teams-played-hard]

what about the second one of buying a "game issued", finding use on it, and reselling it as "game used"?



That is a tough call. My knowledge of jerseys goes before the invention of the term "game issued". I know very little about modern jerseys. I collect basketball jerseys, and most of the newer ones on the market have little or no wear. I have bought jerseys from many reputable sources that have very light wear. They were still advertised as "game worn". I believe anything older than 1986, that could not be bought in a store is classified as "game worn/used". THIS IS MY OPINION. I also only collect common players or semi-stars to be safe. I would never alter a jersey or "add" wear to deceive.

Staindsox (Chris),
I admire your values. However, if you collect Honus Wagner cards, keeping the card for your collection would NOT be unethical.

[DonTheLegend]

a couple of hypothetical questions regarding ethnical behavior:


2) let's say, in this example, i purchase a jersey as "game issued" from a team or dealer. upon examining the jersey, i find obvious signs of wear. is it wrong to then turn around and sell the jersey as "game used" in light of this wear? is it wrong to assume the seller made an error?

interested in people's responses.

rudy.

back in December i sold a Scott Rolen, home, 2004 World Series cap on Ebay.

i purchased the cap from a yearly Cardinals sponsored auction and the item was described as game used. however, it showed little wear and seamed to be a bit on the large side (to me. i wear a 7 3/8......im 5' 10") as it was a 7 1/2, i believe. it also had his number written under the bill and was autographed.

ive bought dozens and dozens of things from this annual event over the years and each year many players will bring in items (to auction) and sign autographs. all have been great items and i have never had any authentication issues when ive sent items in.

i truley wasnt sure if this , in fact, was game used. like i stated, it was purchased as "game used" and therefore i sold the item exactly as it was described to me by the team and its reps.

i got hammered by a couple of guys, but still felt that the word of the team was more reliable than the opinion of a collector. a gentleman wrote that this hat was not game used and that he had several Rolen hats from his days in Philly and that they were all 7 1/4". not that my sole opinion should matter, but i find that hard to beleive. i have several other hats from many players and by comparison, they all seem relative in size to each players height and body size. i felt that a person of Scotts height and weight would possibly warrent this particular size and tried to find examples of his hats, but had no luck.

i didnt (and dont) feel bad about the sale or the representation of this item as , again, this is what the team had said it was. and , to me, if i cant believe the team, then who can i believe?

im sure to get beat up on this, but as a long time "collector" i would never purposely misrepresent an item if im going to sell or trade it and i certainly want to do my part in keeping the integrity of the hobby as high as it can possibly be.

[trsent]

Joel, I think you missed the point of my reply. It has nothing to do with what our society's rules are. My moral and ethical standards would not allow me to keep something when I felt it was wrongly obtained. It is a personal belief. Laws have nothing to do with personal ethics.

Chris, I didn't mean laws of our country...I meant laws of common sense.

I think it is great you have your beliefs, but let me tell you about a tricky situation I once had.

Maybe 14 years ago I walk into my store and see my business partner going through a pile of blankets with baseball players on the front. I was unsure what they were myself so I called a business associate with much more experience than I.

He walked me through these B18 Blankets, and helped me buy part of the deal. He said, pay $50.00 for Jackson (yes, Joe) and so on. I bought about $700.00 worth of blankets and never saw the lady again. Later I heard when she got a quote on the remaining from a store down the road she took it. I have since stopped making offers when I am told they are going to shop for the best price, because I find usually the last person to make an offer gets the deal if they are close.

Now, a month later I'm sitting outside smoking a cigarette at a card show with the guy who helped me buy the blankets. I asked if he wanted to see them, as he didn't even remember talking to me on the phone about the collection.

I took them out and he looked at them and said, "I'll pay you $8000.00 for this lot".

What could I do now? I took the money, but I wondered why he low-balled me on the phone when I was making what I thought was a reasonable offer to the lady.

Did I do anything wrong? I don't think so. Back then we didn't take names, but if I did, would I be responsible to call the lady and give her more money because I was mislead? She was happy to sell me the lot for $700.00. Makes you wonder.

One more and I'm going to bed...

There was a Lindy Lindstrom 1932 Carmel (http://www.slantycouch.com/sets/set_rev_1932uscaramel.htm) that was offered to me (it later sold at auction for a record price as it was the only one ever offered without a punch-hole) that the guy mailed me full color copies and though I had never heard of the card, I wanted to buy when I made a few phone calls.

One friend told me to offer $20,000.00 and see what happens. Now, I did this and the guy (who read an article that since one without a hole-punch was worth a million dollars) turned me down. He didn't want me to fly to him in Arizona and take the card to PSA and have it authenticated, so I was in a bad place as I couldn't middle the consignment either.

I still didn't know if I would make money if I paid $20,000.00, but I tried to offer to give him $20,000.00 as collateral and take a percentage of any profits we receive, but someone came in with a better offer and I lost the deal. Remember, I still had no idea what the card was worth but my gut told me to gamble.

Now, why I bring this up is because what if he agreed to take the 20K and the card was mine?

When it sold at major auction for a price I cannot remember (maybe someone can find it) it went for over $100,000.00 - maybe even $200,000.00. So what would I have had to do? Send the guy a Christmas card and gift every year for life or send him a check for whatever amount so I can sleep better at night?

I don't know. When I have paid large sums of money for merchandise that tanked, no one refunded me my losses. When I bought $25,000.00 in Penny Hardaway jerseys from Upper Deck Authenticated and sold them for around $5.000.00, no one was feeling my sorrow.

Business is business, but the fine lines in these situations do not always make buying from someone who gives you an amazing deal an unethical person.

[metsbats]

Chris,

I feel the same way about this as you do. In fact I was going to turn the question around and ask is it ethnical to buy an item for less knowng it's true value from an ignorant (non-informed) seller. In the laws of business and money it's economically ethnical but within the laws of human nature it may not be (to some folks). The answer is it depends on the buyer.

Classic example is the Tom Seaver game used flannel that was supposedly picked up for $2 at a yard sale many years ago and was of course auctioned off for tens of thousands.

In summary some of us are in the hobby to make a quick buck while some of us are truly in it for love of the game. Same idea applies to life itself.

David

[metsbats]

Chris,

I feel the same way about this as you do. In fact I was going to turn the question around and ask is it ethnical to buy an item for less knowng it's true value from an ignorant (non-informed) seller. In the laws of business and money it's economically ethnical but within the laws of human nature it may not be (to some folks). The answer is it depends on the buyer.

Classic example is the Tom Seaver game used flannel that was supposedly picked up for $2 at a yard sale many years ago and was of course auctioned off for tens of thousands.

In summary some of us are in the hobby to make a quick buck while some of us are truly in it for love of the game. Same idea applies to life itself.

David


"ethical' Should have had my first cup of coffee before posting this!

[Swoboda4]

(1)Would it be proper to sell the jersey as a "don mattingly game worn jersey"?---- ( No)
What should it be sold as?----(You can't sell it at this point,for your sake and that of the buyer)


2) let's say, in this example, i purchase a jersey as "game issued" from a team or dealer. upon examining the jersey, i find obvious signs of wear. is it wrong to then turn around and sell the jersey as "game used" in light of this wear? -----(Yes it's wrong. You can recontact the seller to make sure it was described properly. Steiner recently sold a Mets BP jersey and it had a LOA describing it as game issued. It was a mistake,it was game used)

[staindsox]

Joel,
Once again you're missing my point. This is not about business. It is an ethical point of view. I suggest reading Thoreau's "Civil Disobedience" or the writings of Thomas Aquinas. I think that might help you see where I am coming from. There are plenty of ways to line your pockets and still adhere to personal beliefs.

[earlywynnfan]

Staindsox: excellent answers, I have a few questions for you.

Have you ever sold anything for more than you paid for it? What did you do with the extra?

Suppose you DID find this incredible deal at a yard sale. you now own a $3,000 jersey that you paid 25 bucks for. what would you do with it? And please don't tell me keep it; someday you'll have to part with it. (OK, you keep it until you die; what do you instruct your heirs to do?)

Recently, a friend of mine was renovating her house, and she found several hundred dollars under the carpet in a closet. (in envelopes addressed to the previous owner, who is in a nursing home with Alzheimer's, doesn't know a thing.) the family is in the same town. what do you do? what if it was $100? 20? A buck seventy-six in change? At what point do ethics kick in over "finders keepers"?

Again, I'm not trying to be jerky with you in any way; i just would like to know what you'd do. (I'll tell you what my friend did later.)

Ken
Earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

[trsent]

Joel,
Once again you're missing my point. This is not about business. It is an ethical point of view. I suggest reading Thoreau's "Civil Disobedience" or the writings of Thomas Aquinas. I think that might help you see where I am coming from. There are plenty of ways to line your pockets and still adhere to personal beliefs.

Chris, so if you find $1.00 on the street you are saying you'll turn it into the police because it is a lost item. What about a $100.00 bill, same thing, right?

You are not being realistic with this discussion.

A lady came into the store Monday with a bag of old coins. I offered her $28.50 for the bag and she said, "Sure, I paid $5.00 for the bag at a garage sale Saturday".

Are you telling me this lady did something unethical?

What if I offered her $5000.00 for the bag of coins?

This is real life, if someone sells a Tom Seaver jersey for $2.00 they are happy to receive that price because it is what they were asking.

B2B DealerNet there is a story up about a lady who walked into a coin shop that was paying $10.00 for silver dollars. The lady walked in and brought a 1780s dollar and asked for her $10.00. The shop owner said to the lady, "I have to be honest with you miss, I'll pay you $1000.00 for that coin."

The lady replied, "If it is worth that much I am not selling it!".

You can discuss ethics all you want in these situations, but if you are going to not buy an item because it is priced too low, this has become a silly conversation.

Rudy's original question still has not been answered:

What if you bought a jersey at a garage sale that is properly tagged and shows signs of game use, how can you then sell it as game used?

[kingjammy24]

robert:
"Would it be proper to sell the jersey as a "don mattingly game worn jersey"?---- ( No)"

why?

"What should it be sold as?----(You can't sell it at this point,for your sake and that of the buyer)"

why can't i sell it?

chris: i understand where you're coming from. thanks for your answers. oddily enough, this is what the entire PBS show "Antiques Roadshow" is based on. People come on the show with their bric-a-brac which they have no idea of the value and the "authenticators" either tell them it's worthless or its worth a ton. it's always some story like "i found this little painting in a store in arkansas. i paid $10 for it. what's it worth?" and the authenticator says "well madam this little painting is a vermeer and is worth $90k". curiously, most of the people don't seem to indicate they plan on returning to the seller to give them more money. i understand you feel that it's taking advantage of a person's ignorance. however, if you yourself aren't aware of the value at the time of purchase though, are you still taking advantage? ultimately, the seller lost money because they chose not to properly ascertain the value of their goods. conversely, you did all the work to find the real value of the item.

however, for the sake of the specific questions i asked, let's get away from any notion of monetary value or gain. i was more interested in making the leap in calling an item "game used".

again, if i find a jersey at a yard sale, listed simply as "baseball jersey $30" with no provenance whatsoever, and after authenticating it myself, i feel it's a perfect 1990 mattingly gamer, would it be ethical to then sell it as a "1990 don mattingly game used jersey"?
(is the issue somehow different if i sell it for $30 or $3000?)


rudy.

[trsent]

again, if i find a jersey at a yard sale, listed simply as "baseball jersey $30" with no provenance whatsoever, and after authenticating it myself, i feel it's a perfect 1990 mattingly gamer, would it be ethical to then sell it as a "1990 don mattingly game used jersey"?
(is the issue somehow different if i sell it for $30 or $3000?)


rudy.

How about this:

Rudy, you can sell it as possibly or potentially game used with game issued or style tagging if all matches in your view.

[otismalibu]

again, if i find a jersey at a yard sale, listed simply as "baseball jersey $30" with no provenance whatsoever, and after authenticating it myself, i feel it's a perfect 1990 mattingly gamer, would it be ethical to then sell it as a "1990 don mattingly game used jersey"?

If you researched it and gave a full explanation of your findings in your auction listings, along with some visual aids, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Now, if it's a style that no one can find a photo of him wearing, or a size that seems to big or too small, etc., then there's a problem. You'd just be doing the legwork. I don't really care what's on your letterhead, as long as you can support your opinion. Outside of those rare photo matches, aren't COAs simply that...an opinion? Often times, w/o a wealth of supporting evidence.

[ahuff]

I don't understand why the jersey can't be sold as "game worn". Once a jersey passes from a player's back, does it really matter where it winds up? To me NO!!! Either a jersey is game worn or it is not. Does it have to come with a letter of authentication or one from the team to make it a real gamer? In this scenario, the jersey clearly matches the specs of a gamer and shows signs of wear. Does it really matter that the jersey went from Mattingly's back, to Steinbrenner's office, to his secretary, to her son, to his friend, to his mom's yard sale? I don't think so.

The ironic part, I thought, was that alot of people were saying to get it authenticated to make sure it is real. This goes against most everything that I've seen on this site.

As far as it being ethical to sell it for a huge profit, I don't see anything wrong with that, because it was being offered for sale. If that person's yard sale was anything like the ones my family has had, the person was probably just hoping someone would buy something from them. I'm more on the softer side, though, so if you feel like you need to give that person a percentage, than I believe God will look down and smile. That belief only holds true in this scenario. I believe quite differently if you knowingly rip someone off. When I was a young kid, I once saw someone come into a baseball card shop with a box of 1983-85 cards. This was when those cards were in their heyday. The kid had multiple rookies of Gwynn, Mattingly, Puckett, Big Mac, etc. This box was loaded (worth hundreds of dollars), and the dealer never said how much they were worth, but offered something like $5.00. I remember the kid didn't really want to part with them for that amount, but the dealer seemed to be forcing the issue. That is when I think a person crosses the ethical line. I told the kid the cards were worth much more than $5.00, and was quickly kicked out of the shop!!! I didn't blame the owner for kicking me out, but I do blame him for making a living taking advantage of kids. We all know that a person's got to make a buck, but do it in an honest fashion.

[staindsox]

I'm sorry Joel, this has become a silly conversation if you would NOT turn in that $100 you found. My ethics go beyond finders keepers and I am sorry if yours do not. Read Thoreau and then we'll talk.

[flaco1801]

there are 2 types of ehthics 1 for dealers and 1 for collectors. the dealers make their living buying and selling. when they make a bad purchase they rationalize that the the good deal ( maybe unethical to collectors) is fine, it just makes up for the bad one. it all evens out, thats the logic. they have to support their families too. dealers will buy anything, from anyone to make a profit, its how they survive. Jeff

[trsent]

I'm sorry Joel, this has become a silly conversation if you would NOT turn in that $100 you found. My ethics go beyond finders keepers and I am sorry if yours do not. Read Thoreau and then we'll talk.

So when you find a $100.00 bill on the ground, say in a street in a busy metropolitan, you'd then turn it in to the police?

Who is going to claim it? Everyone and their mother?

I am realistic and honest, but a c-note on the street is open game.

Also, the $20.00 jersey at a garage sale is also open game to the first buyer. The seller choose their price to ask, end of story.

[jessicawinters]

I cannot believe the guy is attacking Joel!! Thoreau?? Yeah, Joel, go read Thoreau, ONLY THEN are you allowed to post in the forum!!

The guy's ethics is warped. It's extreme. Does he know that cigararettes cause cancer? Beer and wine are intoxicants. How does he sleep at night without doing things help these poor people???

The seller is responsible for setting a fair price. There are other sellers that have their prices unreasonably high. Are we supposed to beat them up and make them reset their prices?

Also, we are talking about a GARAGE SALE!! You buy things that cost 20 bucks for a QUARTER! Prices are set to go, and it's anything goes.

[earlywynnfan]

I'm sorry Joel, this has become a silly conversation if you would NOT turn in that $100 you found. My ethics go beyond finders keepers and I am sorry if yours do not. Read Thoreau and then we'll talk.

Staindsox, perhaps I got something else out of Joel's post: what would Thoreau do about $1 he found on the street? What about $5?

Why didn't you reply to MY posting?

Ken

[earlywynnfan]

And Why Do I Keep Finding Myself Defending Joel??

[staindsox]

Thoreau has everything to do with this. For those of you who have bothered to read this whole thread, even though I might be in the right legally does not mean I am in the right morally. "Civil Disobedience" argues this. You are obligated to follow your personal morals. I think it is unfortunate that I am the only one here that doesn't live by finders keepers.

[staindsox]

The guy's ethics is warped. It's extreme. Does he know that cigararettes cause cancer? Beer and wine are intoxicants. How does he sleep at night without doing things help these poor people???

Warped???

[staindsox]

The guy's ethics is warped. It's extreme. Does he know that cigararettes cause cancer? Beer and wine are intoxicants. How does he sleep at night without doing things help these poor people???

Since when has honesty been considered "warped."

[ghostkid]

This thread was very interesting in the beginning, but maybe it has gotten out of hand?

Hey, yesterday I saw a penny on the floor by the vending machines at work. I left it there. That DOES NOT make me any more or less ethical than the next guy.

Yes, in the past I have bought an item that I thought was a good deal and, after research, resold the item for a significant profit (I did not contact the original seller to offer more $$$). Also, I have bought other items that I thought were a good deal and have suffered big losses. Neither of these scenarios make me any more or less ethical than the next guy.


My line of ethics is drawn at misrepresenting items as something they are not (forgeries, misleading descriptions, etc). Also, I believe one should differentiate between selling to an adult versus a child. Adults who sell an item at way below real value should have done their research - it's not my responsibility to inform an adult of their ignorance. Too many people in our society are ignorant and feel others should be responsible for taking care of them. To me, that's a load of garbage. Adults are to be responsible for their own actions, so I'm not going to return any $$$ to an adult who grossly under-priced an item. On the other hand, I feel obligated to inform a child if they are selling their grandfather's card collection for pennies on the dollar. Society dictates that children are not to be held accountable for their actions, at least to the same level that adults shoudl be held accountable.

Kevin

[earlywynnfan]

Kevin, I agree with 99% of what you said.

However, where exactly is that penny? I'd like to go pick it up. (Yes, I'm that cheap!)

Ken

[earlywynnfan]

So what would all you ethical people do here? Ken

MURFREESBORO, Ark. — A Tennessee woman whose husband predicted she wouldn't have any luck gem hunting at Arkansas' Crater of Diamonds State Park made a sparkling discovery: a 1.30-carat diamond.
"I wasn't expecting to find anything and was just picking up pretty rocks," said Melissa Lacey of Knoxville.
At first, she thought the light yellow diamond was "a piece of dirty quartz." After it was identified by park staff, Lacey said she couldn't wait to show it to her husband.
The diamond was the size of a piece of candy corn. The largest diamond ever discovered in the U.S. was unearthed here in 1924. Named the Uncle Sam, the white diamond weighed 40.23 carats.
A freshly dug trench was opened to the public on Saturday. Soil from the trench was spread out over parts of the diamond field. Lacey found her diamond there Thursday.
The Crater of Diamonds State Park is the world's only publicly operated diamond site where the public is allowed to search and keep any gems found, regardless of their value.
© 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved

[both-teams-played-hard]

http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/2244/mothertheresajf1.jpg