'89 Brett Butler World Series uni - if the auto is fake, what hope is there for the uni?

[TNP777]

I've got Butler's '88 Topps contract, and his auto hasn't really changed since then. Jersey has an autograph that says "Brett Butler", but it sure wasns't Butler than signed it. Begs the question - is the uni even legit?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brett-Butler-1989-SF-Giants-Game-Used-Autod-World-Series-Jersey-/170721840795?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27bfd08e9b#ht_500wt_1413

"auto" from jersey


'88 Topps contract


an in-person autograph from a couple summers ago at a Fresno Grizzlies game

[dnrapp]

Re: '89 Brett Butler World Series uni - if the auto is fake, what hope is there for the uni?

I have noticed that some player autographs are different than their signatures. I did not see in the auction when the jersey was signed. You need to find a 20 autograph to compare it to the jersey. With all the time that has past since his playing days his autograph and signature could have becone one in the same.

[cjw]

Re: '89 Brett Butler World Series uni - if the auto is fake, what hope is there for the uni?

I am not disagreeing with the OP, but who would forge a Brett Butler auto??? Can't be much value in that?

[legaleagle92481]

Re: '89 Brett Butler World Series uni - if the auto is fake, what hope is there for the uni?

I am not disagreeing with the OP, but who would forge a Brett Butler auto??? Can't be much value in that?

To give legitimacy to the uniform.

[TNP777]

Re: '89 Brett Butler World Series uni - if the auto is fake, what hope is there for the uni?

I have noticed that some player autographs are different than their signatures. I did not see in the auction when the jersey was signed. You need to find a 20 autograph to compare it to the jersey. With all the time that has past since his playing days his autograph and signature could have becone one in the same.

I understand your point, and have seen examples of this in some players. However, there have been at some recognizable similarities as the years progressed.

I own dozens of items (mostly cards) that he's signed through the years. The autograph on the contract in '88 is very similar to the way he signs today. I've seen hundreds of autographed cards, 8 x 10s & baseballs come up in my searches on eBay and they're all very similar. I see no reason why he'd sign the jersey any differently than he's signed other items, including the two jerseys he's signed for me in person.

[cjw]

Re: '89 Brett Butler World Series uni - if the auto is fake, what hope is there for the uni?

To give legitimacy to the uniform.

A $5 auto gives legitimacy to a $100 jersey? That's a stretch.

[cjw]

Re: '89 Brett Butler World Series uni - if the auto is fake, what hope is there for the uni?

I should clarify. I have no idea if the auto or jersey are authentic and after a second look at the listing, a WS jersey would potentially have more than $100 in value. I was glib earlier, however I dont believe that the auto adds much if anything to the jersey and if faked on an authentic jersey it just takes away.

[TNP777]

Re: '89 Brett Butler World Series uni - if the auto is fake, what hope is there for the uni?

A $5 auto gives legitimacy to a $100 jersey? That's a stretch.

now, now - no need to disparage the desirability of a man's autograph. That said, I believe your $5 price is on the high side.

[legaleagle92481]

Re: '89 Brett Butler World Series uni - if the auto is fake, what hope is there for the uni?

A $5 auto gives legitimacy to a $100 jersey? That's a stretch.

Alot of collectors, especially newer collectors take the approach of if a game used item is signed then the item is real under the theory that the player would not have signed the item if it were not real.

[cjw]

Re: '89 Brett Butler World Series uni - if the auto is fake, what hope is there for the uni?

Alot of collectors, especially newer collectors take the approach of if a game used item is signed then the item is real under the theory that the player would not have signed the item if it were not real.

Granted, but there are many that feel any auto or inscription on a game used item renders the item less desirable.

[sox83cubs84]

Re: '89 Brett Butler World Series uni - if the auto is fake, what hope is there for the uni?

Actually, the jersey looks like it may be the real deal. Everything that should be there is, down to the Giamatti armband worn in the World Series. If I had the $$$ to spare I'd bid. I can't comment on the autograph though.

Dave Miedema

[TNP777]

Re: '89 Brett Butler World Series uni - if the auto is fake, what hope is there for the uni?

Actually, the jersey looks like it may be the real deal. Everything that should be there is, down to the Giamatti armband worn in the World Series. If I had the $$$ to spare I'd bid. I can't comment on the autograph though.

Dave Miedema

Dave, that was about to be one of my next questions - the legitimacy of the jersey itself. A friend of mine thinks it is, but is concerned about two things:

* beneath the Rawlings tag, what does 89 2 mean. I assume the 89 is the issue year, but what is the "2"? Does it denote a team-issued jersey, rather than actual game worn?

* the seller has a LOA from a man in West Virginia stating that the autograph is real, which it is definitely not - there is no question in my mind about that. What is missing is any kind of provenance from Dick Dobbins, who used to handle all of the Giants clubhouse stuff back then.

* another question I have is whether or not that autograph can be safely removed without permanently damaging the jersey. Even if the auto were legit, it's placement really detracts from the jersey's appearance. I'd love some opinions on that.

Thanks!

Geordie

[dcgreg25]

Re: '89 Brett Butler World Series uni - if the auto is fake, what hope is there for the uni?

One of the auction houses had a Butler road WS jersey for sale recently that I looked at but also had questions about. The best way to try and match it up is to look at images from the 1989 WS specifically with the thick arm band on the left arm of the jersey vs the one in the images from the game:

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/88797955/Getty-Images-Sport

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/88797951/Getty-Images-Sport

The spacing below the large thick arm band seems different. Take a look at the links and decide for yourself.

[mbrieve]

Re: '89 Brett Butler World Series uni - if the auto is fake, what hope is there for the uni?

I am not a Giants expert or Brett Butler expert, but based off the additional examples of Butler's autograph, I wouldn't completely discount the authenticity of the signature. Jersey material isn't exactly the easiest surface to sign and who knows if he was handed the jersey without a flat, hard surface behind it. There are a number of similarities with the signature, that if the jersey was legit, I would give more credence to the legitimacy of the signature.

This is a prime example of why I would never get a game used jersey signed...

[sox83cubs84]

Re: '89 Brett Butler World Series uni - if the auto is fake, what hope is there for the uni?

[quote=TNP777;272754]Dave, that was about to be one of my next questions - the legitimacy of the jersey itself. A friend of mine thinks it is, but is concerned about two things:

* beneath the Rawlings tag, what does 89 2 mean. I assume the 89 is the issue year, but what is the "2"? Does it denote a team-issued jersey, rather than actual game worn?

* the seller has a LOA from a man in West Virginia stating that the autograph is real, which it is definitely not - there is no question in my mind about that. What is missing is any kind of provenance from Dick Dobbins, who used to handle all of the Giants clubhouse stuff back then.

* another question I have is whether or not that autograph can be safely removed without permanently damaging the jersey. Even if the auto were legit, it's placement really detracts from the jersey's appearance. I'd love some opinions on that.

Thanks!

Geordie[/quote)

While I can't answer the last question, I can resolve the first two:

1) The "2" on the strip tag is Butler's uniform number. The Giants used those on strip tags instead of set numbers on the majority of jerseys they wore from 1977-91.

2) The team stamp in the tail was affixed by Dobbins, and matches the dozens of examples I have seen and recorded over the years.

I hope that helps and comforts you some.

Dave Miedema