Pete Rose 1983 Expos Gamer

[hblakewolf]

Forum readers-

As a huge Philadelphia Phillies jersey collector, I consider my game worn 1983 home and road Pete Rose jerseys two of the best in the hobby. They show tons of use, and are PERFECT in every detail. Not only were they worn for the regular season, but also for the 1983 World Series. I have a photo match of Rose wearing my home jersey in the post season against the Orioles. I could swear that Rose was with the Phillies for the entire regular and post season, however, now have my doubts after seeing the following on Ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-Pete-Rose-Montreal-Expos-game-used-jersey-MLB_W0QQitemZ8734905444QQcategoryZ60597QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The scary part to the sellers description is the fact that he mentions I have had this jersey appraised by Grey Flannel and valued at US$4000-US$5000.

Someone, please....stop the insanity!

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[trsent]

Re: Pete Rose 1983 Expos Gamer

Forum readers-

As a huge Philadelphia Phillies jersey collector, I consider my game worn 1983 home and road Pete Rose jerseys two of the best in the hobby. They show tons of use, and are PERFECT in every detail. Not only were they worn for the regular season, but also for the 1983 World Series. I have a photo match of Rose wearing my home jersey in the post season against the Orioles. I could swear that Rose was with the Phillies for the entire regular and post season, however, now have my doubts after seeing the following on Ebay:

The scary part to the sellers description is the fact that he mentions I have had this jersey appraised by Grey Flannel and valued at US$4000-US$5000.

Someone, please....stop the insanity!

Howard, isn't it common for teams to re-use a 1983 jersey in 1984? Couldn't they have used a 1983 blank for Pete Rose's brief tenure with the team in 1984? The guy's story appears good, I do not know if the jersey is tagged correctly, but this is not my expertise.

I think it is unfair that you jump on Grey Flannel at any opportunity you get. The auction doesn't once mention that Grey Flannel authenticated the jersey. It just states that they helped place a value on the jersey.

By the way, I did email the seller asking him about the tagging.

[trsent]

Re: Pete Rose 1983 Expos Gamer

By the way, I did email the seller asking him about the tagging.

The seller and I have exchanged a few emails this morning. He is available if anyone else has any questions.

[hblakewolf]

Re: Pete Rose 1983 Expos Gamer

Joel-
Indeed it is common for teams to "re-use" jerseys, however, it's a bit difficult to believe that the jersey in question could have been "re-issued" to Rose for a few reasons:
1. Check the size. It is a 42. Rose was wearing a size 43 with the Reds and a 44 with the Phillies.
2. Rose was signed by the Expos on January 20th, 1984. The first regular season game starts in April. The Expos did not wear their game jerseys in spring training, 1984. Given these facts, do you actually believe the Expos would drag out a previous seasons jersey and letter it up locally for Pete Rose?

Be it Grey Flannel, Mastro or MEARS, how can one estimate a price on a jersey with such questionable issues? Just being tagged from 1983 should send up a red flag, let alone the small size.

The seller emailed me with the following, which further addresses the authentication:
Yes you are right I made the revision to my auction. Thanks for the clarification, I am not much of a ball fan, and entered the wrong year by mistake. He used this item in 1984. Again, it was authenticated by Grey Flannel, let me know if you would like to make an offer on it.
Regards,
Morry Barmak
COLLECTOR STUDIO - Motorsport Gallery
136 Yorkville Ave.
Toronto, ON, M5R1C2, Canada

Joel, in conclusion, I could accept this jersey at face value if it was worn by a rookie, call up or scrub in 1984 such as Ron Johnson, but Pete Rose? I would have a tough time adding this to my Rose jersey collection based on the above.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[trsent]

Re: Pete Rose 1983 Expos Gamer

Howard, points well made.

I just find that Grey Flannel estimating a value based on photos the seller emailed them and Grey Flannel authenticating the jersey is a whole different ball-game.

Needless to say, in my emails with the seller, he made it clear they offered the jersey to Grey Flannel, and they asked him to send the jersey in for their next auction and so they could inspect the jersey. They told him what they felt the jersey was worth, and that was all. The seller doesn't understand that his jersey is not authenticated until they inspect it in person.

I just would assume the story behind the jersey true until proved otherwise. I would also assume the possibility that The Expos used jerseys that were left as blanks from the previous year as back in those times that would not be unreasonable.

In fact, I would bet they didn't even look at the year tag inside a jersey to determine if it should be used by any player. A jersey is a jersey.

Now, your discussion of the size does raise some questions, as Pete was not getting any smaller in those days...

[trsent]

Re: Pete Rose 1983 Expos Gamer

Ok, here is the latest email about the jersey right from the seller:

"I did a little research and it turns out this particular jersey I own was given to Pete Rose on Jan.20, 1984 when he signed with the Expos. At the time, there were no new 1984 jerseys made as they don't make the new batch until the season starts several months later. Therefore, they gave Rose a 1983 jersey which was modified and measured to his size. He wore it at the press conference (I have pix of this in the Jan.21/84 Montreal Gazette) and then later on during spring training and in the season. That is why the jersey is labelled 'set 1, 1983' but from the 1984 MLB season.

There have already been several offers from serious collectors, please let me know if you would like to make one.

Regards,

Morry Barmak

COLLECTOR STUDIO - Motorsport Gallery
136 Yorkville Ave.
Toronto, ON, M5R1C2, Canada
tel/fax: 416.975.5442
http://www.collectorstudio.com "

[hblakewolf]

Re: Pete Rose 1983 Expos Gamer

Joel-
I received the exact same email.

The information provided in it is fictional at best:

The size 42 jersey was "modified and measured to his size"?

Likewise, the seller indicates Rose used it during his press conference, then wore this exact jersey at spring training and then into the 1984 season. Give me a break! Not only did the Expos wear batting practice jerseys during spring training, but you mean to tell me that the team ordered 1984 jerseys for the season and had Rose wearing a previous seasons jersey that he also used during spring training? Where did the seller obtain this key information from? Interesting is was never disclosed in the original post.

As I always say, do your homework. In this case, I give the seller an A+ for crative writing 101.

Hward Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[trsent]

Re: Pete Rose 1983 Expos Gamer

As I always say, do your homework. In this case, I give the seller an A+ for crative writing 101.

So the seller gets high marks for effort! Hip hip hooray! I decided not to make an offer after a few emails from the guy. Oh well, looked cool at first. I was tired when I posted the email from the seller earlier today, but now that you make me review it after a good day of sleep, I do find it odd his story.

Tell us he wore it at the press conference only and the story may have been plausible, but you are right, common, Spring Training and then into the season.

What? Did he wear it when he went out for dinner so people would know who he was?

[Vintagedeputy]

Re: Pete Rose 1983 Expos Gamer

Here's my question -

if "The size 42 jersey was "modified and measured to his size", wouldnt that mean that a jersey originally tagged as a size 42 would require material to be added to fit a man who wears a 44? Even if they didnt replace the tags, wouldnt there be some way to see extra material added?

[trsent]

Re: Pete Rose 1983 Expos Gamer

Ok, here are the email exchanges (in order) I had today about the jersey:

From: CollectorStudio.Com [mailto:info@collectorstudio.com]
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 8:30 AM
To: info@collectorstudio.com
Subject: RARE Pete Rose Montreal Expos game used jersey MLB
Importance: High

.
I will be selling the Pete Rose jersey today as there have been several serious offers on it.
This email is your last chance to make an offer if you are still interested in it. Again the authentication is bullet proof -

1. It comes with a letter of authenticity from the charity it was donated to, explaining who gave it to them and when,
2. Grey Flannel have seen images and have given the item the 'thumbs up' and appraised it at US$4500,
3. I have photos of Pete with this exact jersey when he signed with the Expos in January, 1984,
4. Most importantly, no replicas were ever made of this jersey.
Please let me know by return email today.

Regards,

Morry Barmak

COLLECTOR STUDIO - Motorsport Gallery
136 Yorkville Ave.
Toronto, ON, M5R1C2, Canada
tel/fax: 416.975.5442
http://www.collectorstudio.com


From: Joel Alpert [mailto:joel@alpert.net]
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 8:34 AM
To: 'info@collectorstudio.com'
Subject: RE: RARE Pete Rose Montreal Expos game used jersey MLB

I am sorry, I talked to Grey Flannel and you are not telling the full story. They liked the pictures, assigned a value and asked to see the item. Since you didn’t send it to them, I assume if they receive it to write a letter they will come back to me telling me the jersey was not ‘game used”.

I have no doubt he may have held this jersey at a press conference, but that doesn’t make it game used as you claim. He didn’t wear it during the season, the jersey was too small for him to have worn as he was wearing a slightly bigger size by the time he signed with The Expos.

Now you have my return email.

Joel



From: CollectorStudio.Com [mailto:info@collectorstudio.com]
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 8:39 AM
To: 'Joel Alpert'
Subject: RE: RARE Pete Rose Montreal Expos game used jersey MLB

Joel - no problem other collectors are more than satisfied with the provenance.
It is inconceivable 20 years ago that anyone would waste the time or effort to dummy up one of these jerseys....it shows great wear and again, no replicas were made. As well GF saw the pix and were happy with them, but wanted to see the jersey physically in hand should they be consigned to sell it. Since I did not choose to have them sell it, I did not send it to them.

Regards,

Morry Barmak

COLLECTOR STUDIO - Motorsport Gallery
136 Yorkville Ave.
Toronto, ON, M5R1C2, Canada
tel/fax: 416.975.5442
http://www.collectorstudio.com

From: Joel Alpert [mailto:joel@alpert.net]
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 8:53 AM
To: 'info@collectorstudio.com'
Subject: RE: RARE Pete Rose Montreal Expos game used jersey MLB

I am sorry. You are selling an item that could have never been worn in a game. Yes, it may have been shown off at a press conference, but game use is impossible because THE JERSEY IS TOO SMALL FOR PETE.

I tell you what, I am very friendly with Pete, why don’t you and the jersey come here to Las Vegas and we can meet him at Ruth Chris Steak House for dinner and have him inspect the jersey himself. If you are that sure he wore a size 42 jersey in games that year, I’d love for him to inspect it. In fact, if he likes it, I’ll bet we can ask him to autograph it “game used”.

Oh yeah, by the way, 20 years ago there were people “dummy”ing up jersey just like they do today. Don’t fool yourself to think you have more than you do. I was a very interested buyer, until you emailed me that the jersey was shown off in a press conference, then worn in spring training and then worn into the season. That was where I knew you were pulling strings to sell it as game used.

Again, I understand it may have been shown off at a press conference. That is great, but that is all I can assume of the history.

Joel

[trsent]

Re: Pete Rose 1983 Expos Gamer

I can't help it, here are my last two emails, just too funny...


From: CollectorStudio.Com [mailto:info@collectorstudio.com]
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 9:49 AM
To: 'Joel Alpert'
Subject: RE: RARE Pete Rose Montreal Expos game used jersey MLB

Hi Joel,

I had to do some extra research as I was curious why it was tagged from one year earlier, and surmised that it was a jersey made and used before the 1984 issued ones were available. I have pix of him with it, or one identical, as well. In any case, the jersey has sold, for much less than GF quoted a game used one would sell for - meaning the buyer was more than protected knowing he paid a fair price for something original that may have been worn during the season, but definitely used at some point as it shows great wear.

As for your offer of flying to LV - I am not eager enough to spend the time or effort. I have $5M in inventory in my shop and this jersey is just a drop in the bucket...even if it didn't sell it would not make a difference, I have had it sitting in my closet here for 8 years.

Thanks again for your time and insight.

Regards,

Morry Barmak

COLLECTOR STUDIO - Motorsport Gallery
136 Yorkville Ave.
Toronto, ON, M5R1C2, Canada
tel/fax: 416.975.5442
http://www.collectorstudio.com


From: Joel Alpert [mailto:joel@alpert.net]
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 10:08 AM
To: 'info@collectorstudio.com'
Subject: RE: RARE Pete Rose Montreal Expos game used jersey MLB

Good for you having a $5,000,000.00 inventory and I’m glad to hear that your few thousand dollar jersey is just a “drop in the bucket”.

I value my money, too bad you are better than me.

Joel