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kellsox
12-10-2011, 07:43 PM
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/7338271/ryan-braun-milwaukee-brewers-tests-positive-performance-enhancing-drug

OaklandAsFan
12-10-2011, 07:49 PM
ouch, gotta sting for a big time guy to be busted

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/12/ryan-braun-tested-positive-for-peds.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

jetersbatboy
12-10-2011, 07:54 PM
OUCH!!!

I really liked Bruan as a baseball fan! Sad day!!!:mad: :mad:

OaklandAsFan
12-10-2011, 08:05 PM
so the Brewers already lost Fielder and now they not only have to lose Braun for almost 1/3 of next season but also deal with the questions about the entire season and Braun's MVP award. Hate to be a Brewcrew fan right about now although in reality it sucks to be a baseball fan in general right now.

How do you allow a guy who tested positive for PED's to collect the MVP award?? He was notified in October so MLB knew about it earlier than that. Another black mark for baseball, which claims it was going out of the way to clean up the game.

maverick14
12-10-2011, 08:05 PM
Wow!! And right after winning the MVP too.

freddiefreeman5
12-10-2011, 08:08 PM
My only Braun item is a signed baseball. It is now for sale.
This is getting to be really sad. :(

trsent
12-10-2011, 08:10 PM
Did anyone read the article? Nothing has been announced as Braun's agent is appealing the decision due to special circumstances? Doesn't get get the benefit of the doubt until this in official announced or axed?

"Major League Baseball has not announced the positive test because Braun is disputing the result through arbitration.

A spokesman for Braun issued a statement Saturday: "There are highly unusual circumstances surrounding this case which will support Ryan's complete innocence and demonstrate there was absolutely no intentional violation of the program. While Ryan has impeccable character and no previous history, unfortunately, because of the process we have to maintain confidentiality and are not able to discuss it any further, but we are confident he will ultimately be exonerated."

kellsox
12-10-2011, 08:14 PM
Elevated testosterone - testosterone tested as synthetic.

freddiefreeman5
12-10-2011, 08:20 PM
Sounds like the statement put out by Palmeiro's lawyer.
Still waiting on that on.

freddiefreeman5
12-10-2011, 08:23 PM
What's really sad is Kemp was cheated out of a MVP award if this is true.

OaklandAsFan
12-10-2011, 08:24 PM
appeal or not MLB should have not let him collect the award while there was speculation or doubt!

How can MLB say they are cleaning up the game when they allow a guy who tested positive to collect an award thus allowing him the ability to collect whatever bonus that was in his contract for winning an MVP and any other benefits he stands to get for winning the award, not much of a deterrent there!

SkubeBats
12-10-2011, 08:26 PM
What the heck are you thinking Braun. I thought you were one of the good guys in baseball. I will see him a little different from now on. To bad he had to do this to himself, the team and us fans. What an a dumb ass....

LastingsMilledge85
12-10-2011, 08:32 PM
Perhaps a revisit to this thread is appropriate...

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=47336

zookerman182
12-10-2011, 08:40 PM
Im sick to my stomach.

Braun is a super hero in Milwaukee. Basically a guy who could do no wrong.

If this holds up, he should give the NL MVP to Kemp.

He just effed up big time.

brewcrew
12-10-2011, 08:42 PM
I'm hoping this report is wrong/the test was erroneous but that's pretty doubtful.

I'll probably have a few pieces of Braun memorabilia for sale soon...can't look at him the same way if this is true.

Very, very disappointing.

schubert1970
12-10-2011, 08:43 PM
Funny how everyone who pops positive is innocent. Maybe Braun will get the David Ortiz treatment. I think Kemp got screwed big time.

freddiefreeman5
12-10-2011, 08:48 PM
I'm hoping this report is wrong/the test was erroneous but that's pretty doubtful.

I'll probably have a few pieces of Braun memorabilia for sale soon...can't look at him the same way if this is true.

Very, very disappointing.
As mentioned, I have a atuographed baseball and that is all.
It's now $35 shipped in the classified.
I will look stupid if he somehow beats this rap. :p

Bondsgloves
12-10-2011, 08:52 PM
In time I think we will learn that many (most) of the stars have taken chemical enhancements. I think most people are in denial or want to believe there superstars are clean. With the money involved that these stars are making $250 million over ten years, I think players are making these unethical decisions. I think with the money involved players will continue to do PED's with testing or not.

Dewey2007
12-10-2011, 08:55 PM
Selig used to own the Brewers so no surprise that this was allowed to happen on his watch.

Just waiting for him to screw Oakland's fans next and help out his buddy Lew Wolff move the team to San Jose.


appeal or not MLB should have not let him collect the award while there was speculation or doubt!

How can MLB say they are cleaning up the game when they allow a guy who tested positive to collect an award thus allowing him the ability to collect whatever bonus that was in his contract for winning an MVP and any other benefits he stands to get for winning the award, not much of a deterrent there!

gingi79
12-10-2011, 09:01 PM
I'm all for being considered innocent until proven guilty but he's known since October. In 2 months, he should have constructed a damn convincing case. AND, if any logical reasons were made available, the test results should have been PRIVATE until a definite yes or no. No matter what, he will never lose this stigma now.

I'm not up to date on what causes a positive test, does anyone know a logical reason for a possible false positive? (Or are we just watching Palmeiro alllll ova again)

schubert1970
12-10-2011, 09:03 PM
MVP

Most Valuable enhanced Performance

lakeerie92
12-10-2011, 09:07 PM
appeal or not MLB should have not let him collect the award while there was speculation or doubt!

How can MLB say they are cleaning up the game when they allow a guy who tested positive to collect an award thus allowing him the ability to collect whatever bonus that was in his contract for winning an MVP and any other benefits he stands to get for winning the award, not much of a deterrent there!

Just to defend MLB a little here, the MVP belongs to the Baseball Writers of America not MLB. MLB isn't releasing the official information due to the appeal and I assume they did not tell BWA for the same reason. MLB didn't give the MVP, BWA did.

lakeerie92
12-10-2011, 09:09 PM
Sorry... BWAA

frikativ54
12-10-2011, 09:35 PM
Sounds like the statement put out by Palmeiro's lawyer.
Still waiting on that one.

I have to agree. When is Major League Baseball going to start revoking a player's awards if they were the result of juicing? As far as I'm concerned, Braun does not anymore deserve that MVP.

Dach0sen0ne
12-10-2011, 09:41 PM
Maybe his trainer accidentally gave him a shot of Testosterone instead of a shot of B-12 he was supposed to get. I'm sure mistakes like that happen all the time.

freddiefreeman5
12-10-2011, 09:45 PM
Is Tejada still giving out those B12 shots? :D

happyyoungster
12-10-2011, 09:48 PM
As the resident Ryan Braun collector on this site...
I have to say that I'm pretty blown away.

And as far as overturning any positive test results, it's never been done before.
So, I don't see any silver lining at this point. I guess time will tell.

stitzerfse
12-10-2011, 10:32 PM
It is important to note that no one has had a test overturned . . . in MLB. Many other leagues around the globe and even the Olympics have had athletes' tests/suspensions overturned to due issues with the test and/or the labs. I work in the medical field and often see cases where patients receive false positives with their lab results. NOT saying Braun is innocent, but someone in baseball WILL someday have a false positive given the sheer number of tests performed and the fact that humans are involved in the process.

In the meantime, anyone disgusted and wanting to unload their Braun game used items can contact me at the email below. I'm still buying. :)

David
12-10-2011, 10:46 PM
It's fair to assume the 95% of positive tested saying the test in error is not a reflection of the accuracy of the testing. It's a reflection of the the 95% being spoiled babies who can't man up to their mistakes.

slam
12-11-2011, 12:30 AM
Anyone want to sell there gu bats or jerseys? I'm looking to buy.

Trublubrucru
12-11-2011, 12:34 AM
For three years previous he was an all star and a silver slugger. What changed? Why now? Did sitting on the bench for the All Star game with an injury make him make a horrid decision to use and get back faster? He did start to tear it up in late July. Is it possible he used all along in his career?

As a Brewers fan, a baseball fan, I'm stunned, disappointed, and now a bit disillusioned on where to go collecting wise.

Damn, what a gut punch

yankees506
12-11-2011, 12:47 AM
I root for the team everyone loves to hate and yet I still found myself rooting for Braun. Its unfortunate and as a baseball fan only two words come to mind; unfortunate and disappointed. Sad day indeed.

OaklandAsFan
12-11-2011, 01:27 AM
For three years previous he was an all star and a silver slugger. What changed? Why now? Did sitting on the bench for the All Star game with an injury make him make a horrid decision to use and get back faster? He did start to tear it up in late July. Is it possible he used all along in his career?

As a Brewers fan, a baseball fan, I'm stunned, disappointed, and now a bit disillusioned on where to go collecting wise.

Damn, what a gut punch


I think it would be safer to assume that he (along with many others IMHO) used from day one and he just got caught. The cream and the clear were designer drugs that were made to help but not be detected, I'm sure there are plenty of other drugs with similar effects out there and he just messed up and didn't clean up his system before the test.

freddiefreeman5
12-11-2011, 01:57 AM
Does anyone know if MLB test are random or do they tell the players ahead of time?

Mets05
12-11-2011, 03:43 AM
Stole this from yahoo.com:

It’s easy to understand why Braun would use PEDs. MLB took 3,868 tests between the beginning of the 2010 offseason and the end of the 2011 World Series. Everyone on a 40-man roster took one within the first five days of spring training, which knocked off about 1,200. Each took another unannounced test during the season. And MLB threw in 1,200 more random tests for the rest of the year, playoffs included.

kellsox
12-11-2011, 08:01 AM
This is another reason why people should never think that anyone in recent history "did it clean". There is so much the public doesn't know. Just because a guy didn't physically look the part or is a nice guy does not mean he wasn't getting help.

3arod13
12-11-2011, 08:53 AM
What the heck are you thinking Braun. I thought you were one of the good guys in baseball. I will see him a little different from now on. To bad he had to do this to himself, the team and us fans. What an a dumb ass....

I'm sure Bruan probably is a good guy. Unfortunately, people in sports are still, and always will be trying to find a way (or something) to help make themelves better.

Definately a sad day. I like Bruan.

70to66
12-11-2011, 09:04 AM
I'm thinking if he did them he figured this was their best shot at going all the way and winning the world series, especially not knowing if Fielder would be back. I hope its not true baseball does not need this.

allstarsplus
12-11-2011, 10:28 AM
Let his appeal go through and then make a judgement. His backup sample was negative. Was he taking an over-the-counter supplement? Who knows. Obviously there is a reason for concern but let the process play out.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111211&content_id=26145472&vkey=perspectives&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/brewers/135386013.html

CampWest
12-11-2011, 10:31 AM
I wonder if there will be testing at Royals Fantasy Camp next month... I was thinking of going for the full MLB experience and using PEDs. I had decided to play clean, but this development has me thinking everybody must be doing it if even a guy as respected as Ryan Braun thinks its okay, allegedly.

If you need me, I'll be at Gold's Gym ... making contacts...

kellsox
12-11-2011, 10:46 AM
Let his appeal go through and then make a judgement. His backup sample was negative. Was he taking an over-the-counter supplement? Who knows. Obviously there is a reason for concern but let the process play out.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111211&content_id=26145472&vkey=perspectives&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/brewers/135386013.html

As far as I read the second test that Braun requested was done after the first one. It was not the same sample taken the same day. Best of luck to him with his appeal. A 4-1 testosterone ratio with the extra testosterone being synthetic doesnt make things look promising for him. Even if he gets the suspension thrown out(which is unlikely in my opinion), his performance will be in question.

happyyoungster
12-11-2011, 11:04 AM
Let his appeal go through and then make a judgement. His backup sample was negative. Was he taking an over-the-counter supplement? Who knows. Obviously there is a reason for concern but let the process play out.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111211&content_id=26145472&vkey=perspectives&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/brewers/135386013.html



Intelligently spoken...

Preston
12-12-2011, 01:01 PM
disagree completely w/ the "juicer" label for Braun - granted you never know what these guys are really putting in their bodies, but Braun has been a class act on and off the field, and is a model representation of an MLB team.

"Innocent until proven guilty" means something still, right? I am hoping he wins his appeal because by no means is a failed drug test an absolute, definite "he did something wrong" - UFC fighter Chael Sonnen had his year long suspension reduced to 6 months because he had taken something to increase the testosterone levels in his body - his testosterone to estrogen level was WAY off, but it was something he medically had to take and wasn't being used as a supplement to try to cheat. Hopefully Brauny's the same way. There are exceptions to every rule, however with MLB players being 0 for 11 in appeals, the best Braun probably can hope for is a reduced suspension.

freddiefreeman5
12-12-2011, 01:10 PM
A spokesman for Braun confirmed the positive test Saturday and issued a statement: "There are highly unusual circumstances surrounding this case which will support Ryan's complete innocence and demonstrate there was absolutely no intentional violation of the program. While Ryan has impeccable character and no previous history, unfortunately, because of the process we have to maintain confidentiality and are not able to discuss it any further, but we are confident he will ultimately be exonerated."

The above statement by his "spokesman" screams guilty.

Read it again carefully.

There is nothing preventing Braun from just saying to the news media and the fans, "I didn't do it."

CampWest
12-12-2011, 03:20 PM
A spokesman for Braun confirmed the positive test Saturday and issued a statement: "There are highly unusual circumstances surrounding this case which will support Ryan's complete innocence and demonstrate there was absolutely no intentional violation of the program. While Ryan has impeccable character and no previous history, unfortunately, because of the process we have to maintain confidentiality and are not able to discuss it any further, but we are confident he will ultimately be exonerated."

The above statement by his "spokesman" screams guilty.

Read it again carefully.

There is nothing preventing Braun from just saying to the news media and the fans, "I didn't do it."

The word I keep getting hung up on is "intentional". Specifically, "there was absolutely no intentional violation of the program." So they are saying he did violate the program, but on accident... huh. Didn't Bonds initially say his was accidental too... then he changed it to, I didn't know what I was taking -- maybe that was Sheffield. I can't keep who said what lie straight.

What I don't understand is how could he be completely innocent while unintentionally violating the program. If someone accidently runs a red light, they are not innocent because they did it unintenionally.

xpress34
12-12-2011, 03:35 PM
The word I keep getting hung up on is "intentional". Specifically, "there was absolutely no intentional violation of the program." So they are saying he did violate the program, but on accident... huh. Didn't Bonds initially say his was accidental too... then he changed it to, I didn't know what I was taking -- maybe that was Sheffield. I can't keep who said what lie straight.

What I don't understand is how could he be completely innocent while unintentionally violating the program. If someone accidently runs a red light, they are not innocent because they did it unintenionally.

EXACTLY! The MLBs stance since the program started has been that it doesn't matter 'how' or 'why' you violated it - it only matters that you violated it.

Players are responsible for making sure they know EXACTLY what is going into their bodies and I have a hard time believing that you wouldn't know if a Synthetic Testosterone was being inserted into your system.


My favorite line is, "There are highly unusual circumstances surrounding this case..." Does that mean that even if the Positive Test stands up, that Braun has a good reason for why i was in his body? More plausible than the others we've heard (i.e. I thought it was B12, it was part of my medical regime, I didn't know what I was taking, etc).

Can't wait to hear it.

On the other hand - if you read my post about ManRam being re-instated - if Manny can get his suspension reduced because of how long he's been away from the game (HE QUIT on the GAME and isn't enough of a man to serve his REAL suspension), then Braun might be able to plea his down.

If he does, it (along with the Manny decision) will water down the whole banned substance program and the penalties attached to it.

- Smitty

xpress34
12-12-2011, 03:36 PM
Does that mean that even if the Positive Test stands up, that Braun has a good reason for why i was in his body?

Should read IT, not I... oh for an EDIT FEATURE!!!!

freddiefreeman5
12-12-2011, 04:45 PM
Should read IT, not I... oh for an EDIT FEATURE!!!!
Good thing you caught that before someone else did. :)

philsfan
12-12-2011, 06:04 PM
I'm not a Brewers or Braun fan but if you love baseball you can't help but feel like you got hit in the gut with a bat. Doesn't get much worse than the NL MVP failing a drug test. I only owned one game used bat from Braun which I sold a few weeks ago (lucky me). From what I understand, the machine used to test the sample is excellent and very rarely makes a mistake. If that's the case, Braun is in a ton of trouble with fans and one day the Hall of Fame. He'll keep all of his awards, money and perhaps win a World Series (like Arod in NY), but you can't ever get your reputation back.

Total disaster for collectors of Braun stuff. You can't tell me that game used stuff from Giambi, Arod, Mac25, Clemens, Bonds, Sosa, Rapha, wouldn't be selling for twice or three times the current amount if they hadn't been stained. Kemp deserved the award and this positive test just confirms, in hindsight, that the wrong decision was made by the press.

Very sad day. I hope that Braun is able to fight the allegations and prove that the test was wrong. We will see...

trsent
12-13-2011, 03:46 AM
My favorite article about this situation:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/7346920/mlb-why-ryan-braun-keep-nl-mvp-award

Ryan Braun is MVP, no matter what

If his appeal is denied, Brewers slugger shouldn't be stripped of his award

By Jayson Stark
ESPN.com

I keep thinking back to the last day of September. I keep thinking back to the day I finally cast a National League MVP vote I'd spent way too many hours agonizing about.

I cast that vote for Ryan Braun. It was one of the hardest MVP decisions I've ever made.

Let's just say it hasn't gotten any easier in the last 48 hours or so.

You think I haven't been second-guessing that vote for the last couple of days, since the moment I learned Saturday night what ESPN was reporting about Braun's positive October drug test? Of course I have. Who wouldn't?

What we have here is as big an award mess as this sport has ever gotten itself into. And as Jose Canseco would be happy to tell you, that's saying something, friends.

To get news this ugly about a newly elected MVP before they've even officially handed him his trophy? Yikes. Doesn't get much more embarrassing than that -- no matter how Braun's appeal turns out.

But now that we've got all that out of the way, I'm here to tell you what we can't do:

We can't spray-paint Ryan Braun's name off the list of MVP award winners. We can't rip his nameplate off the trophy.

And we definitely can't -- and shouldn't -- hold a whole new MVP election if his appeal gets denied and he's sent away to serve 50 games of detention.

I say that as a guy who is trying hard not to rush to judgment in this case. I've read every word written by the two great reporters who broke this story, T.J. Quinn and Mark Fainaru-Wada. I've paid just as close attention to the vociferous denials coming from Braun and his camp.

I don't see how Braun talks his way out of this, based on the nearly ironclad stipulation in the drug-testing agreement that says a player can't wriggle out of a positive test by claiming he didn't "intentionally" take the wrong substance. But luckily for Braun, it doesn't matter how anybody on the outside sees his case.

He just has to sell his story to his friendly neighborhood baseball arbitrator, Shyam Das. So I'm just like everybody else. I'm anxiously waiting for Shyam Das to clear all this up for me -- and for the rest of civilization.

If Das upholds this positive test, it figures to taint Ryan Braun's award forever. But it shouldn't be an excuse to produce a not-so-special election sequel -- MVP Story 2. And here's why:

There's no precedent

Never in the history of baseball's award voting has any player had an award revoked. Didn't happen to Alex Rodriguez or Canseco or Ken Caminiti when they admitted to using PEDs after winning their awards. Shouldn't happen now.

Elsewhere on this site, the always eloquent Doug Glanville contends otherwise. One of his arguments is that just because we've never done it before isn't a reason we shouldn't do the right thing now. But in my view, it isn't that simple.

If we overturn Braun's election, does that mean we're going to wipe out all future elections of players who get linked to any sort of PEDs? It should, right?

Or is there going to be a statute of limitations? Would we need to learn of that link within 90 days? How about 120? Before the following Opening Day? Within a calendar year?

Seems impossible to establish any fair cutoff date, doesn't it? If the intent is to keep "cheaters" from winning awards, then everybody ought to be fair game, no matter when he won his award or when we found out about it. Correct?

So if we're going to hold a new 2011 NL MVP election, how can we not do a revote on that 2003 AL MVP award that A-Rod won -- considering that he's admitted he used steroids on the way to winning it?

But wait. Go back and take a look at that 2003 vote sometime. A-Rod was one of 10 players who got a first-place vote that year. Five of them have since gotten tangled up in some level of PED suspicion: Manny Ramirez, Miguel Tejada, Jason Giambi, David Ortiz and Nomar Garciaparra. So what would we do about those guys? How could we hold a fair and rational re-election all these years later?

That doesn't really matter much now, I suppose. But I bring that up because it's a reminder the information or speculation about those men didn't all erupt at exactly the same time. It never does in these cases.

So suppose we hold a new 2011 MVP election and then find out -- even 10 years from now -- that whomever we elect, whether it's Matt Kemp or Lance Berkman or any other guy who seems squeaky clean right now, has some sort of taint of his own? Do we then vote again? Or is this a one-time-only event, like Oprah's farewell show?

The point is, once you start, it seems as if it would get impossible to stop. So why go down that road? You're only asking for trouble -- and never-ending trouble, to boot.

Braun didn't test positive during the season

Here's another point we can't ignore. According to ESPN's report, Braun's positive test came during the postseason. So there is no proof -- zero -- that he was using any banned substance during the regular season, on the way to winning this award.

That won't matter to some people, obviously. But remember, this is a regular-season award. Period. So if a positive test that comes after the regular season is enough to trigger a revote, then it's time to ask:
Would there also be a statute of limitations on when an award winner would need to test positive to crank up the new-election mechanisms?

If a guy wins an award and then tests positive in the offseason, would that be enough to redo the election? How about during the following spring training? Or any time in the following calendar year?

The assumption by the masses would be the same, right? If he was using then, how naive would we have to be to assume he wasn't using before? Seems like a logical enough argument.

But if we're going to adopt that standard, shouldn't that mean that any positive test by any player ever should void an earlier election, no matter how many weeks, months or years later it occurs? And if so, is that enough? How about if a player writes a book someday and accuses a fellow player of using PEDs? Or what if we just strongly suspect a player of PED use, even if it's years after he won his award?

Who wants to answer these questions? Who wants to make these rules? Not me. That's for sure.

How do we know Braun 'cheated' his way to an MVP?

Finally, here's the essence of this argument:

We have no idea what Ryan Braun did or didn't do on the way to his MVP award. We have no idea what he took, why he took it, when he took it or how it affected the season he had -- if at all. Some of this might get cleared up at some point. Then again, it's possible that once we hear all the explanations, we'll just be more confused.

So here are some facts to consider: The MVP had a tremendous year, obviously, or he wouldn't have won this award. But it's not as if we're talking about a guy who came out of nowhere to have an MVP season.

Basically, Ryan Braun just did what he's been doing pretty much his entire career. He just happened to do it in the context of a season where his team finished in first place -- for the first time in nearly three decades.

Other than his batting average and on-base percentage, his numbers this year were pretty much routine Ryan Braun numbers. Don't believe me? Take a look.

CATEGORY 2011-AVERAGE SEASON

HR 33-32
Extra-base hits 77-75
Doubles 38-37
Runs 109-101
RBIs 111-106

Beyond those departments, his average home run distance actually went down, according to ESPN Home Run Tracker, from 408.2 feet to 407.3. And while his slugging percentage and OPS were both up over the previous year, neither was a career high.

So we're not talking about Barry Bonds' 2001 MVP season, when a fellow who had averaged 33 homers a year -- for a decade and a half -- suddenly exploded for 73, at age 36. This was a 28-year-old star having a typically great year, in his prime.

Which means that anyone concluding that the 2011 MVP couldn't possibly have done what he did without "cheating" is making way too convenient an assumption.

None of this is intended to exonerate the guy. Please understand that. If the arbitrator doesn't let Ryan Braun off the hook, it will be his fault that he put a substance in his body that triggered his positive test, even if it was unintentional.

If that's the case, he deserves to serve his time. But please don't ask us to vote again on an award he won based on everything we knew at the time we voted. Please.

You know, it's only a trophy. If we're going to take that away from him, we might as well strip the Brewers of their division title, too. For that matter, shouldn't we also go back and let the Diamondbacks play the Cardinals in the National League Championship Series? At least we know Braun tested positive during the series that eliminated the D-backs from the great Octoberfest.

But it's funny how everybody agrees that replaying the postseason from that point would be impractical. Yet we're all hung up on who won an award -- and redoing the election that made it possible? Seems kind of mixed up to me.

I believe in mulligans -- on the golf course. But in baseball? I believe that what happened, happened. And trying to make it un-happen is more trouble than it's worth, even if it taints an MVP award, and the man who won it, for the rest of time.

Jayson Stark is a senior writer for ESPN.com. His latest book, "Worth The Wait: Tales of the 2008 Phillies," was published by Triumph Books and is available in a new paperback edition, in bookstores and online

OaklandAsFan
12-13-2011, 10:23 AM
yeah sure its "just" an award, but its an award that leads to certain perks and monetary payments. If we don't start having serious repercussions to PED infractions then IMO baseball will never really be doing all it can to rid the sport of PED's

lakeerie92
12-13-2011, 03:29 PM
If you post a link to an article there is really no need to then go and post the entire article in the same thread.

Let me preface this by stating that I can't make up my mind on whether the MVP should be stripped or not. It actually really doesn't matter either way for me because it doesn't affect me.

People keep stating there is "NO PRECEDENT" for stripping Braun of his MVP. Why do people keep clinging to this statement? There was no precedent of stripping a Heisman before Reggie Bush either, but it happened. There is "NO PRECEDENT" of all things at some point, that is why some decisions "set precedent". That statement keeps bothering me. The BBWA should get together and make a concrete decision via vote on it to clear it up and set precedent on how it is handle from here on out.

Buster Olney has made a very valid point that some of these voters in the past have made statements such as "You can't reward cheaters," and "This is not a court of law. Do the right thing." Wouldn't these views apply to major awards?

I can see it either way, but if they did strip him of MVP they should NOT give it to Kemp or have a re-vote.

frikativ54
12-13-2011, 04:46 PM
I can see it either way, but if they did strip him of MVP they should NOT give it to Kemp or have a re-vote.

Why not, if Kemp passed his drug tests?

Manram
12-13-2011, 06:57 PM
If you post a link to an article there is really no need to then go and post the entire article in the same thread.

Let me preface this by stating that I can't make up my mind on whether the MVP should be stripped or not. It actually really doesn't matter either way for me because it doesn't affect me.

People keep stating there is "NO PRECEDENT" for stripping Braun of his MVP. Why do people keep clinging to this statement? There was no precedent of stripping a Heisman before Reggie Bush either, but it happened. There is "NO PRECEDENT" of all things at some point, that is why some decisions "set precedent". That statement keeps bothering me. The BBWA should get together and make a concrete decision via vote on it to clear it up and set precedent on how it is handle from here on out.

Buster Olney has made a very valid point that some of these voters in the past have made statements such as "You can't reward cheaters," and "This is not a court of law. Do the right thing." Wouldn't these views apply to major awards?

I can see it either way, but if they did strip him of MVP they should NOT give it to Kemp or have a re-vote.

What do you mean Kemp shouldn't get it? He derserved it in the first place

CampWest
12-13-2011, 07:23 PM
when the olympics strips a medal, they move all the qualifying finishers up a spot in the standings and re-award the medals.

That's a decent analogy...

I don't think baseball will do it though.

frikativ54
12-13-2011, 07:49 PM
when the olympics strips a medal, they move all the qualifying finishers up a spot in the standings and re-award the medals.

That's a decent analogy...

I don't think baseball will do it though.

Not sure that the writers will do that either, but it's the right thing nonetheless. If you can fail a drug test and win MVP in the same year, then Braun's punishment is a small penalty for cheating.

lakeerie92
12-14-2011, 02:03 AM
Why not, if Kemp passed his drug tests?

My decision was based on my belief. If I was in the situation I wouldn't want the award second hand. The Olympics move them up a spot, but the NCAA chose to erase the name. It has happened both ways in sports. The statement was my personal belief. That being said I believed Kemp deserved it in the first place. As a player I would just be committed to winning my own outright rather than getting it that way.

OaklandAsFan
12-14-2011, 05:00 AM
this doesn't just affect Kemp, Most players have it written into their contracts that they get X amount of money for finishing 1,2,3,4,etc in the MVP voting so all those players that didn't cheat (or at least didn't get caught) are losing money to someone who was caught.

MLB wanted to clean up the game and it will take something drastic to really make a point, this is the time to step up and do it. BBWA needs to make a stand also.

trsent
12-14-2011, 08:43 AM
So many people want him stripped of his MVP but he hasn't even been convicted yet.

Even if he is suspended, unless you go back and take away MVP awards from anyone who has tested positive, ever, then don't give me a crappy double-standard. You know, Alex Rodriguez, Jason Giambi, Miguel Tejada, Jose Canseco, Roger Clemens. They all have been tied to juice, so if you pick on Braun, pick on each and every name above also please. The time it takes to get caught and when you won the award is a stupid argument.

Notice I left off Barry Bonds - Never has there been any proof he juice. Just speculation (which may be true) but never anything proven.

Personally, I say let them all ruin their bodies and stop these stupid tests.

A good, short read:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AnF8TkHKjY8rTpbRSBGelew5nYcB?slug=ap-braun-positivedrugtest

Weiner: Avoid ‘rush to judgment’ on Braun


NEW YORK (AP)—Baseball’s union head says people should wait for all the facts before making conclusions about NL MVP Ryan Braun.


The Milwaukee Brewers’ star tested positive for a performance-enhancing substance and is appealing to an arbitrator. The case is not likely to be determined until next month at the earliest. If the positive test is upheld, Braun would face a 50-game suspension as a first offender.


Players’ association leader Michael Weiner says in a statement Tuesday that the drug agreement is designed to protect a player from “a rush to judgment.” He adds that “fairness dictates that Ryan Braun be treated no differently.”

philsfan
12-14-2011, 09:53 AM
Notice I left off Barry Bonds - Never has there been any proof he juice. Just speculation (which may be true) but never anything proven.



Really, no proof of juice. Did you read the Grand Jury testimony he gave....? Call it what you want, but the clear and cream was a steroid and bonds admitted under oath he took it...regardless of whether he thought it was flaxseed or birdseed. LOL!



Barry Bonds told a federal grand jury that he used a clear substance and a cream supplied by the Burlingame laboratory now enmeshed in a sports doping scandal, but he said he never thought they were steroids, The Chronicle has learned.
Federal prosecutors charge that the Bay Area Laboratory Co-operative, known as BALCO, distributed undetectable steroids to elite athletes in the form of a clear substance that was taken orally and a cream that was rubbed onto the body.
Bonds testified that he had received and used clear and cream substances from his personal strength trainer, Greg Anderson, during the 2003 baseball season but was told they were the nutritional supplement flaxseed oil and a rubbing balm for arthritis, according to a transcript of his testimony reviewed by The Chronicle.
Federal prosecutors confronted Bonds during his testimony on Dec. 4, 2003, with documents indicating he had used steroids and human growth hormone during a three-year assault on baseball's home run record, but the Giants star denied the allegations.
During the three-hour proceeding, two prosecutors presented Bonds with documents that allegedly detailed his use of a long list of drugs: human growth hormone, Depo-Testosterone, undetectable steroids known as "the cream" and "the clear," insulin and Clomid, a drug for female infertility sometimes used to enhance the effect of testosterone.
The documents, many with Bonds' name on them, are dated from 2001 through 2003. They include a laboratory test result that could reflect steroid use and what appeared to be schedules of drug use with billing information, prosecutors told the grand jury.
In a September 2003 raid on Anderson's Burlingame home, federal investigators seized documents they said showed Bonds was using banned drugs, according to court records. Anderson was indicted in February on charges of money laundering and conspiracy to distribute steroids in the BALCO case. Bonds' attorney, Michael Rains, said he was upset, though not entirely surprised, his client's secret testimony had been revealed. He said he had no proof but suspected the government was the source of the leak, insisting it had been out to get Bonds from the beginning.



Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/12/03/BALCO.TMP#ixzz1gWL76Pvg

lakeerie92
12-14-2011, 12:38 PM
Even if he is suspended, unless you go back and take away MVP awards from anyone who has tested positive, ever, then don't give me a crappy double-standard. You know, Alex Rodriguez, Jason Giambi, Miguel Tejada, Jose Canseco, Roger Clemens. They all have been tied to juice, so if you pick on Braun, pick on each and every name above also please. The time it takes to get caught and when you won the award is a stupid argument.

Notice I left off Barry Bonds - Never has there been any proof he juice. Just speculation (which may be true) but never anything proven.

Personally, I say let them all ruin their bodies and stop these stupid tests.

The biggest difference you are leaving out here is not one of those players is known to have tested positive during a MVP season. That is a MAJOR difference in this situation from any of the other players. Arod is the only possible exception because he said he used steroids when he went to Texas and he won a MVP in 2003. I agree if you take Braun's then you should take his too.

The comment saying let them ruin their bodies and stop these stupid tests is reckless and short sighted. Do you really think if you let them ruin their bodies it is going to stop with Major and Minor league players? The next step is high school and middle school players using them to try to get a competitive edge. Then you have people that don't have a snowballs chance in hell of going pro ruining their bodies because it is what they have to do to keep up.

OaklandAsFan
12-14-2011, 01:06 PM
its also a different situation because baseball has taken a "hard" stance against PED's at this point. They need to make an example and right now is the perfect time to do it. Take away the award, including the monetary awards for it and players will really think twice about using in the future.

Players take them now because of the potential money involved, you start affecting that money and players will think twice.

trsent
12-14-2011, 03:32 PM
The biggest difference you are leaving out here is not one of those players is known to have tested positive during a MVP season. That is a MAJOR difference in this situation from any of the other players. Arod is the only possible exception because he said he used steroids when he went to Texas and he won a MVP in 2003. I agree if you take Braun's then you should take his too.

The comment saying let them ruin their bodies and stop these stupid tests is reckless and short sighted. Do you really think if you let them ruin their bodies it is going to stop with Major and Minor league players? The next step is high school and middle school players using them to try to get a competitive edge. Then you have people that don't have a snowballs chance in hell of going pro ruining their bodies because it is what they have to do to keep up.


its also a different situation because baseball has taken a "hard" stance against PED's at this point. They need to make an example and right now is the perfect time to do it. Take away the award, including the monetary awards for it and players will really think twice about using in the future.

Players take them now because of the potential money involved, you start affecting that money and players will think twice.

I say it is a double standard if they punish Braun, who hasn't been convicted of anything yet (I am worried he will not win his side, but he has the right to give his side, correct?). If they want to punish him, punish everyone else also on the list.

Don't tell me during a season this and after a season that. I forgot to originally mention, I believe Keith Hernandez's season from when he admitted to using cocaine should be wiped from the record books because he said back then that the baseball looked like a beach-ball when he used coke.

Also, did Fergie Jenkins get caught with marijuana back in Canada many moons ago? I believe his awards and achievements should then also be taken away. I believe that drug made him a better pitcher.

Oh wait, I'm being sarcastic. For someone who is clean and sober for going on 23 years next month I'm all for all these substances being made legal in professional sports. If a guy wants to ruin his body and die young so he can hit a baseball (or any other sports situation) it is not my business to say he can't.

I am not higher than anyone or anything but I have strong views on these situations which I am entitled to and as a regular contributor on this forum I like to give a side that no one ever considers in this communist society that we often like to fool ourselves into believing is a free country.

70to66
12-14-2011, 07:09 PM
Hope its not true, but check out this link?

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ti-brown_hardball_braun_conte_testosterone_testing_12 1211

3arod13
12-14-2011, 07:20 PM
Reality is, it's never going away. They will always create something new, and players will always try to find some way to help give them the edge. It's all about the almighty $$$$$.

I just feel bad for those players who work hard to be the best they can be, the right way, and they get lost in the mix of all this crap!

xpress34
12-14-2011, 08:10 PM
I like to give a side that no one ever considers in this communist society that we often like to fool ourselves into believing is a free country.

Sorry to side track the thread - and I thought we weren't supposed to have anymore 'political commentary' (and if you believe the above isn't a political statement, then I don't know what is) - but as a disabled veteran, I take strong offense at this comment.

I served my country proudly - giving up some of my own personal health in the process - so that you and others can live free.

If you don't think it's free, why don't you exercise one of your greatest freedoms - the freedom to leave.

Yes, since 9/11 things have changed - mostly for our safety as a nation. I don't like what goes on in D.C. either - I'm an independent by the way - but if you think there is a better country to live in, please be my guest and go there and enjoy.

Everyone - sorry for the rant, now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

- Smitty

xpress34
12-14-2011, 08:17 PM
Now, for my .02 on Braun...

The ONE fact that makes this case different than any others is the TIMING.

Less than a month removed from winning the MVP his Positive test is confirmed. Some say MLB would have known before the voting, BUT (and I might be wrong here), all of the voting for ALL awards is supposed to be done BETWEEN the Last Game of the Season and before the First Game of the Playoffs as the playoffs are not supposed to sway opinion.

I agree with the argument that the NCAA set precedent and stripped Bush of his Heisman due to his issues that came to light.

My question (that hasn't been asked) is IF they uphold his Positive Test (which seems likely to me) - even if they don't take the award - do Kemp and the other MVP runner's up have a LEGAL STANDING to SUE Ryan Braun for lost money (perks in their contracts) based on where they ended up in the MVP voting? That could be an interesting angle...

The problem with my question though - and back to the MVP Award itself - is that Braun's Positive Test came at the start of the POST SEASON. He didn't fail a REGULAR SEASON test which kind of negates the 'stripping of the award' in my personal opinion.

xpress34
12-14-2011, 08:25 PM
One... actually TWO more things...

1) I am NOT a Braun fan and just want the system to work...

2) That said - and I wrote another thread on this, but it bears repeating - how does MLB/MLBPA not only reinstate ManRam, but also REDUCE his suspension... due to the length of time he's been away from the game?

There were no extenuating circumstances - Manny walked out on his team mates, his team, his league and the game. And now, IF he gets signed, he gets rewarded for being a chicken $&#t who couldn't even face his suspension like a man.

To me, that is MLB and MLBPA watering down the testing program.

If you committed a crime and 'locked yourself away' before being caught, you aren't going to get 'time served' for the length you were away from society.

Why should Manny be any different? If he fails a third, will they drop the lifetime ban and THEN give him 100 games and say he never served a 100 game suspension yet?

Selig is already starting to turn a blind eye again to what goes just to make more revenue and it makes me sick... here comes black cloud #2 for MLB.

trsent
12-15-2011, 12:15 AM
Sorry to side track the thread - and I thought we weren't supposed to have anymore 'political commentary' (and if you believe the above isn't a political statement, then I don't know what is) - but as a disabled veteran, I take strong offense at this comment.

I served my country proudly - giving up some of my own personal health in the process - so that you and others can live free.

If you don't think it's free, why don't you exercise one of your greatest freedoms - the freedom to leave.

Yes, since 9/11 things have changed - mostly for our safety as a nation. I don't like what goes on in D.C. either - I'm an independent by the way - but if you think there is a better country to live in, please be my guest and go there and enjoy.

Everyone - sorry for the rant, now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

- Smitty

Sorry if I offended you, but our free society has many, many perks but the government isn't for the people like it used to be. Here in Illinois the cost to live here has gone up in the past 12 months with no way around it and no public support. Tolls are almost doubling next month, state income tax has gone up about 75% since last year and our freedoms are not what they once were.

I fully applaud the military system in our country and all who have worked as a part of it.

The reason I moved to this comment is I believe all these punks who wish to use substances to make their bodies stronger for sporing purposes should be fully legal and accepted as long as they understand they will probably die young and miserable. Our society and many previous posts in this discussion state that Braun should have his award stripped before he has even been found guilty just on a preliminary report.

I say let them juice if they don't value their longevity in life and let's see how that way goes.

lakeerie92
12-15-2011, 12:58 AM
Like I said, I don't really have an opinion either way. I was just stating different things I had heard. I agree 100% that nothing should be done until the final result has been made, but there is nothing wrong with debating what should happen in that case. Given the history of positive test appeals and the information we know at this point it doesn't look good for Braun.

Titans74
12-17-2011, 08:45 AM
Who cares anymore. So what if he did? As far as I'm concerned, show me an athlete that 100% proof positive DOESN'T use something. That would be a bigger shock to me these days.

I used to be all up in arms about PED use in baseball. Now? I simply don't care anymore. I watch the game I love with a bit of nausea in my stomach. It's just how it is now.

I do however, have a bit more respect for those that used and either admitted it or didn't outright deny it. I still hope to hear Raffy one day just fess up and put it all behind him for good. I hope for him the post career success McGwire has had. But until then, he's still guilty in my book. As for Braun, oh well. Just another name to the already extensive list of cheaters.

I just don't see the big deal anymore.

LastingsMilledge85
12-17-2011, 12:50 PM
I just don't see the big deal anymore.

But then why do you think Bryce Harper should be investigated for steroids if, "you don't care anymore?"

Titans74
12-17-2011, 03:38 PM
But then why do you think Bryce Harper should be investigated for steroids if, "you don't care anymore?"

I guess my sarcasm towards his big, square jaw (a common sign of steroid use) and even bigger douche attitude escaped you. ;)

And I suppose I have to repeat myself. I don't care anymore about steroid use or PED's. I do care about players poor attitudes. Especially ones that haven't accomplished squat but think they are superstars.

So yes, I hope Harper fails miserably and winds up one of MLB's bigger busts.

happyyoungster
02-23-2012, 05:37 PM
This is why people shouldn't jump to judgment...

Go have another MVP year, Braunie!!

OaklandAsFan
02-23-2012, 05:58 PM
he fleeced a 3rd party "neutral" person. I still have my doubts and apparently so does MLB



Major League Baseball Executive Vice President for Labor Relations Rob Manfred issued the following statement today:

“Major League Baseball considers the obligations of the Joint Drug Prevention and Treatment Program essential to the integrity of our game, our Clubs and all of the players who take the field. It has always been Major League Baseball’s position that no matter who tests positive, we will exhaust all avenues in pursuit of the appropriate discipline. We have been true to that position in every instance, because baseball fans deserve nothing less.

“As a part of our drug testing program, the Commissioner’s Office and the Players Association agreed to a neutral third party review for instances that are under dispute. While we have always respected that process, Major League Baseball vehemently disagrees with the decision rendered today by arbitrator Shyam Das.”

happyyoungster
02-23-2012, 06:44 PM
he fleeced a 3rd party "neutral" person. I still have my doubts and apparently so does MLB



Major League Baseball Executive Vice President for Labor Relations Rob Manfred issued the following statement today:

“Major League Baseball considers the obligations of the Joint Drug Prevention and Treatment Program essential to the integrity of our game, our Clubs and all of the players who take the field. It has always been Major League Baseball’s position that no matter who tests positive, we will exhaust all avenues in pursuit of the appropriate discipline. We have been true to that position in every instance, because baseball fans deserve nothing less.

“As a part of our drug testing program, the Commissioner’s Office and the Players Association agreed to a neutral third party review for instances that are under dispute. While we have always respected that process, Major League Baseball vehemently disagrees with the decision rendered today by arbitrator Shyam Das.”

You are certainly entitled to your doubts.
Actually, this whole thing is no different than someone who is taken into police custody and not processed/questioned properly. In turn, the charges are dismissed on a technicality. No one ever knows but the parties involved. As for the rest of us? We take it as it is.

CollectGU
02-23-2012, 07:42 PM
You are certainly entitled to your doubts.
Actually, this whole thing is no different than someone who is taken into police custody and not processed/questioned properly. In turn, the charges are dismissed on a technicality. No one ever knows but the parties involved. As for the rest of us? We take it as it is.

I assume you believe that OJ Simpson was innocent too??

happyyoungster
02-23-2012, 08:05 PM
I assume you believe that OJ Simpson was innocent too??

I'm not sure what that comparison has to do with anything related to a failed drug test?? But, your example (while a bit to the extreme) does reinforce my original point...
We can think what we wanna think. But, the fact remains: we'll never know.
For the record-I never said Braun was innocent. Hell, how would I or anyone else know what he took or did not take? All I know is that the star of my favorite baseball team will be in the opening day lineup...period.

CollectGU
02-23-2012, 09:11 PM
I'm not sure what that comparison has to do with anything related to a failed drug test?? But, your example (while a bit to the extreme) does reinforce my original point...
We can think what we wanna think. But, the fact remains: we'll never know.
For the record-I never said Braun was innocent. Hell, how would I or anyone else know what he took or did not take? All I know is that the star of my favorite baseball team will be in the opening day lineup...period.

And the court of public opinion is the most powerful of all, so he has been sullied even though he got off on a technicality and his memorablia willikely take a hit based on public opinion...

happyyoungster
02-23-2012, 09:12 PM
And the court of public opinion is the most powerful of all, so he has been sullied even though he got off on a technicality and his memorablia willikely take a hit based on public opinion...

I have to agree with you, there.

jjkraner
02-23-2012, 09:14 PM
I'm selling the batting gloves to make more room for more of the MVP. I hope his stuff gets cheaper so I can buy it. Everyone hate on him please.

happyyoungster
02-23-2012, 09:28 PM
I'm selling the batting gloves to make more room for more of the MVP. I hope his stuff gets cheaper so I can buy it. Everyone hate on him please.

My sentiments exactly...

CampWest
03-01-2012, 10:26 AM
The story keeps evolving... Interesting feedback from Braun's peers.

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog?name=olney_buster&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fmlb %2fblog%3fname%3dolney_buster

TAMPA, Fla. -- Imagine the player who won his appeal of a positive drug test last week was named John Doe, or Ray Kinsella, or Crash Davis. Because there's something that we've learned about this generation of players that really doesn't have anything to do with Ryan Braun (http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/_/id/28721/ryan-braun) or Dino Laurenzi or Shyam Das.


After a week of talking with players around baseball on background, and the agents and executives and managers who speak with them, this fact is evident: There are a lot of players who are furious about last week's decision.


"It's a joke," said one longtime National Leaguer.


"This really hurts," said one pitcher.


They are not mad at the fact that they are subject to drug testing. They aren't complaining about Big Brother. They aren't mad at Major League Baseball.


They are furious that a player who tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs won by challenging the administration of his test rather than contesting the presence of synthetic testosterone in the urine. (Although we haven't seen the official written decision from the arbitrator.)


I'm guessing I've had 30 to 40 conversations with different folks around the sport, a small sample for sure. But a decade ago you might have found three or four players among those 40 who criticized a fellow player.
Rather, the vast majority would've recited the strong words from their union meetings about their privacy rights, about the pitfalls of testing, about how any suggestion of drug testing by the owners was really designed to undermine their livelihood.


But if this recent straw poll of players is a proper reflection of the union as a whole, there has been a dramatic shift of thought among the brethren.

I'm guessing 80 to 90 percent of the players I spoke with expressed dissatisfaction with the outcome of last week's case, in varying degrees. Some agents and executives say they've drawn the same responses in their conversations with players.


For a lot of the players -- most of whom have been subject to testing since they first played in professional baseball -- the peers who choose to take performance-enhancing drugs are viewed as a significant threat.

CampWest
03-02-2012, 01:44 PM
Maybe I am behind schedule... but I just read this and am a bit shocked... So, Braun got off because there is no mailing location open? Seriously? Wow... Corruption? Conspiracy? Coincidence that he is the franchise player in the commissioner's home town?

yeesh...

http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/7637613/chicago-cubs-players-praise-support-ryan-braun-collector



The legal team for the Milwaukee Brewers (http://espn.go.com/mlb/team/_/name/mil/milwaukee-brewers) outfielder and NL MVP argued in a grievance hearing that the sample collector, Dino Laurenzi Jr., did not follow the procedures specified in baseball's drug agreement, which states the urine sample should be taken to a FedEx office on the day it is collected "absent unusual circumstances." Arbitrator Shyam Das last week overturned Braun's positive test, freeing Braun of his suspension.
...
Laurenzi issued a statement Tuesday defending his actions, saying he never tampered with the urine sample. Laurenzi collected the sample from Braun on Oct. 1, a Saturday, and said he placed it in a Rubbermaid container in his basement office because "there was no FedEx office located within 50 miles of Miller Park that would ship packages that day or Sunday." Laurenzi took it to FedEx on Monday.

happyyoungster
03-02-2012, 09:41 PM
Braun will never fully shake this rap...

Failed drug test aside, as a Brewers fan, I'm just glad he'll be there Opening Day so the Brewers can compete for the Division.
Plus, I'm anxious to see how he handles the pressure all season long.

yanks12025
02-06-2013, 07:19 AM
Well looks like Braun may be caught again with his name in the books of the Miami person.

10thMan
02-15-2013, 03:17 PM
No surprise here...I'll say it again. In 1998 when CBS (locally) interviewed Tony Gwynn, they prodded him about PED's. The reporter repeatedly asked him how many players use, he kept shrugging. The reporter asked for percentages, again Gwynn shrugged. The reporter asked "would you say a lot of players" "Give me a percentage" Then the reporter asked if it was "50%" Gwynn said "most of them"