Amateurish Photo Matching

[otismalibu]

“MEARS does not photo match, we use the process of imagery analysis. This includes using the process of mensuration, a concept introduced by retired LTC Dave Grob. With photo matching, you must have an understanding of tagging, sizing, style, lettering, numbering, wear, source/provenance, and imagery analysis. To just take a jersey and match it against a photo is an amateurish way of authenticating."

I’ve got no beef with MEARS. Pretty sure I’ve purchased from them in the past and would do so again. But it seems that auction houses have a different definition for “photo match” than many on the board do. To be fair, I think many of the posters here are confused by the term.
If you have a high quality image and you can match an exact repair, mesh hole locations in screened letters/numbers, lettering anomaly, etc. – I'll take that.

Look at the MEARS auction description below. This auction description is the very definition of amateurish.

http://www.mearsonlineauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=19034

Although unsuccessful in our attempts to find an exact photo match, what the above did provide us was style matches of Jackets worn by the Jazz from 1975-78. This did not match any of those styles.

What does the above statement even mean? We couldn’t find an exact match to the item we’re trying to sell, but we found pictures of other jackets? Style match…but to completely different pieces. There’s a reason they say a picture is worth 1000 words. This description is probably approaching 1000 words, but would have been so much more convincing with no text whatsoever and a single style match to any Jazz player. That means a Jazz player wearing this style of jacket.

Now, there are also some pretty amateurish approaches to photo matching on this board as well. We’ve all seen a game photo of a player standing at an angle and then someone drawing all their little reference lines on a photo of a jersey laying flat, hoping to match it to the game photo. Perspective is kind of important.

Trying to match a jersey to screen cap of a paused YouTube video is not the same as matching an item to a kylehess10 photo.

I don’t disagree that one must have a knowledge of tagging, sizing, style etc. but a TRUE photo match…what’s better? A letter? And, IMO, way too much weight is given to source/provenance.

Example – Erving SCP collection auction item.

You’ve got Julius Erving selling his personal basketball collection through SCP Auctions. SCP President is David Kohler who has a Lakers collection which is beyond belief. The owner of the items AND an auction that is run by someone with an extensive knowledge of basketball memorabilia. The perfect marriage. Every item comes with a letter from Erving.

Below is lot #91 from the Nov. auction. As you can see, the item is listed as a presentation jersey (1984 AS game) with a min. bid of $1000.

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb110/otismalibu/th_East6.jpg (http://s209.photobucket.com/albums/bb110/otismalibu/?action=view&current=East6.jpg)

I know the vast majority of you will cringe when you read this next part, but I emailed Mr. Kohler and pointed out that this was actually Erving’s 1983 AS game MVP jersey. How did I know this? I photo matched the jersey. Yeah, I thought about keeping that nugget of info to myself. So the item was pulled and put in the December monthly auction, with a min. bid of $7500. It sold for over $73,000.

http://www.scpauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=17985&searchby=0&searchvalue=None&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=100&category=1&seo=JULIUS-%22DR.-J%22-ERVING

Just for reference, below is an actual presentation AS game jersey (1977 AS MVP) and it sold for a little over $6000.

http://catalog.scpauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=16368&searchby=0&searchvalue=None&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=100&category=1&seo=JULIUS-%22DR.-J%22-ERVING

Now one might argue that this was just an oversight and the mistake would have been caught even if I never pointed it out. I think if Mr. Erving and Mr. Kohler truly knew what this piece was, a 1983 AS game MVP inscription surely would have been added (like jersey below), when Doc was out in CA signing all the pieces.

http://catalog.scpauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=17301&searchby=0&searchvalue=None&page=1&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=100&category=1&seo=JULIUS-%22DR.-J%22-ERVING

As a side not to this story. Mr. Kohler sent me an email, said thanks and told me it would be the feature item of the next auction. I replied to both Mr. Kohler and Mr. Erving and suggested that a few autographs for some of my items would be a nice thank you, seeing I probably just put $15-30K back in their pockets. This was a conservative guess, because the 2nd auction had not yet run. Looking back now, I would say the difference was more like $50-60K. I never got a reply from either gentleman.

[mickeymbz]

"If you have a high quality image and you can match an exact repair, mesh hole locations in screened letters/numbers, lettering anomaly, etc. – I'll take that. "

Great post Greg.. I couldnt agree more with you on this topic... i think access to a high res photo increases chances for a match a thousand fold..but unfortuantely high res imagery, especially by Getty, is insanely expensive and often not available especially to role cast players. Ive also had the opposite happen whereas i had a high res photo of a star player and in the background was a common player,,and no way when looking at low res pic did i see any identifiers with the common,,but lo and behold it was a match. andf yes early on i believed i had matches when in fact the opposite when matched to a high res photo.
Great scp story!

[mickeymbz]

But i might add that Kinunen statement is condescending and a joke as are MANY of his loa's

[jppopma]

Great post Greg....bringing it back to the old school days of the forum with a well laid out case and great topic.

I like the Maravich example and wording. While I commend them for giving such a nice description of all of the work they did to try to show that it was game worn, they admit that they were not able to show that. If that's the case, then why list the item as game worn (as in the 1st picture to the left)?

Maybe they changed the title, added the disclosure, and forgot about the advertising picture... I do notice that the final bid with premium at $4379 fell alot short of their estimate of $20,000. I bet the cosigner wished that had sold it with a bunch of unknowns and landed someone willing to bid now and research later.

[CampWest]

This has become one of my favorite MEARS LOA ... Its a "David Cone Game Used SSK Fielding Glove".

Not signed, no name on glove, no number on glove. MEARS authenticated because its "right handed thrower" and "photos show Cone using black gloves"... This is ignoring the fact that there are no pictures of Cone using SSK and all the black gloves are numerous Rawlings and one TPX.

Great job MEARS...

Apparently any 90s glove that is right handed thrower and black could be certified as authentically used by David Cone.

My point is MEARS uses photos to prove something that the photos do not prove.

If anybody sees a photo of Cone using SSK, please pass it along... Nonetheless, it would be great if MEARS would at least look for a confirmation of the manufacturer in its "imagery analysis", but sadly all they look for is color.

[joelsabi]

i had a high res photo of a star player and in the background was a common player,,and no way when looking at low res pic did i see any identifiers with the common,,but lo and behold it was a match. andf yes early on i believed i had matches when in fact the opposite when matched to a high res photo.
Great scp story!

So at least you see the limited amount of available photos for common players during a game. While professional photographers aim for the money shots, aimed at stars and key positions, what photos are used to photo match the role players and semi-stars who get no attention from the photographers or camera men?

[both-teams-played-hard]

Thoughtful post, Otis. The reason this forum was invented.

[joelsabi]

Look at the MEARS auction description below. This auction description is the very definition of amateurish.

http://www.mearsonlineauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=19034

[I][B]Although unsuccessful in our attempts to find an exact photo match, what the above did provide us was style matches of Jackets worn by the Jazz from 1975-78. This did not match any of those styles.

What does the above statement even mean? We couldn’t find an exact match to the item we’re trying to sell, but we found pictures of other jackets? Style match…but to completely different pieces.

Imagery analysis: At this time, MEARS was not able to find a photo of Maravich wearing this exact jacket. Additionally, we could find NO image of an early 1974 Jazz jacket worn by ANY player. Our references included:

1974 Jazz Media Guide

1975 Jazz Media Guide

1976 Jazz Media Guide

Maravich Memories DVD

U TUBE Maravich tributes

1974 Sport Magazine Season issues

1974 Sports Ilustrated Season issues

Getty

Corbis

Although unsuccessful in our attempts to find an exact photo match, what the above did provide us was style matches of Jackets worn by the Jazz from 1975-78. This did not match any of those styles. So with the Sand Knit tag dating ending in 1974 and no early 1974 images found of any Jazz player wearing a warm-up jacket, we are confident in our 1974 dating.


I pasted the photo image analysis on top.

What Mears seems to say is that they checked 9 sources for photos to match the jersey and found none. The photos they found, showed styles that elimated years from 1975-1978. By eliminating these years and taking into account the tags, they deduced it was a 1974 jersey.

Seems pretty clears to me.

[joelsabi]

Thoughtful post, Otis. The reason this forum was invented.

+1

[otismalibu]

What Mears seems to say is that they checked 9 sources for photos to match the jersey and found none. The photos they found, showed styles that elimated years from 1975-1978. By eliminating these years and taking into account the tags, they deduced it was a 1974 jersey.

Seems pretty clears to me.

Do you think figuring out the date of a tag is the same as authenticating a jersey?

What year is this jersey from and who wore it? You can use 1000 words or 1 photo.

Clue - the tag is from the jersey at left and the SIXERS lettering on that jersey was used for only the 1977-78 season.

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb110/otismalibu/th_Erving_678.jpg (http://s209.photobucket.com/albums/bb110/otismalibu/?action=view&current=Erving_678.jpg)

[bronx_burner]

What Mears seems to say is that they checked 9 sources for photos to match the jersey and found none. The photos they found, showed styles that elimated years from 1975-1978. By eliminating these years and taking into account the tags, they deduced it was a 1974 jersey.

Seems pretty clears to me.

Yes but a photo was found (not by Mears) of the 1974 warmup jersey and it didn't match. See this thread:
www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=38999 (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=38999)

[joelsabi]

Do you think figuring out the date of a tag is the same as authenticating a jersey?

What year is this jersey from and who wore it? You can use 1000 words or 1 photo.

Clue - the tag is from the jersey at left and the SIXERS lettering on that jersey was used for only the 1977-78 season.

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb110/otismalibu/th_Erving_678.jpg (http://s209.photobucket.com/albums/bb110/otismalibu/?action=view&current=Erving_678.jpg)

Otismalibu,

No, tags are just one element. Tags can be replaced/added/removed. I don't know what type of stitches are used to sew on the tag and I don't have access to dozens of jerseys to compare it to.

In some cases, I imagine, there are tags that would be used for only one year that could be helpful to authenticate an item for a particular year. For example. there are Yankee hats with the same logo since back in the days with tags used only for a specific year. The photo of the player wearing the hat gives no clue as to what year but the tag does.

Of course, if there is a photo use it. In this case there is no photo so they did the next best thing to explain their findings.



Yes but a photo was found (not by Mears) of the 1974 warmup jersey and it didn't match. See this thread:
www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=38999 (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=38999)

I cannot open the link. If a photo was found and didn't match, MEARS cannot deduce that it came from that year.

[bronx_burner]

Not sure whats wrong with the link feature in the forum then. See if this works. Otherwise, its a simple copy and paste into the address bar of the link text I posted before.

showthread.php?t=38999 (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=38999)

[trsent]

But i might add that Kinunen statement is condescending and a joke as are MANY of his loa's

I'll repost my post from another discussion thread discussing Troy's comments. You can take cheap shots at him all you want, but as he told me on the phone, he talked to the guy for 45 minutes and that quote was half a sentence. I'm pretty sure posts like the one you made above will not be swayed by Troy's response to the discussion(s) as if you don't appreciate the time and work MEARS spends authenticating items then you'll never appreciate anything positive about them, but for those who wish to read a reply right from the founder of MEARS, here you go:

---------------------------------------------------

As I assumed earlier, Troy was taken out of context.

Troy Kinunen of MEARS just emailed me the following:

From my notes on the interview,

“MEARS does not photo match, we use the process of imagery analysis. This includes using the process of mensuration, a concept introduced by retired LTC Dave Grob. With photo matching, you must have an understanding of tagging, sizing, style, lettering, numbering, wear, source/provenance, and imagery analysis. To just take a jersey and match it against a photo is an amateurish way of authenticating. Because without studying the rest of the facts, fraud can be introduced.

There are many collectors out there that truly study their hobby and educate themselves, and do not need the use of authenticators. Actually, if you look back at the 600+ published articles, MEARS has been an industry leader of educating collectors on how to make informed purchase decisions.

MEARS does not just take an item and state is authentic, we try to show you the process of how we came to our conclusion.”

[otismalibu]

With photo matching, you must have an understanding of tagging, sizing, style, lettering, numbering, wear, source/provenance, and imagery analysis.

Honestly, with a true photo match, I'm not concerned with the tagging, style or where it came from (assuming it's not stolen).


To just take a jersey and match it against a photo is an amateurish way of authenticating. Because without studying the rest of the facts, fraud can be introduced.

I would argue that anyone (eBayer, auction house) who is trying to sell an item and has not first found, at the very least, a style match, needs to keep researching.

[trsent]

Honestly, with a true photo match, I'm not concerned with the tagging, style or where it came from (assuming it's not stolen).



I would argue that anyone (eBayer, auction house) who is trying to sell an item and has not first found, at the very least, a style match, needs to keep researching.

You are correct and we all know you are a memorabilia god. No one doubts that Greg. The problem is too many people take an item with a letter and don't photo-match it. Why should they? They have a letter!

Now anyone who reads this forum knows a letter is often not worth the paper it is printed on, even though some letters are useful and helpful.

In fact, MEARS often gives Getty Image numbers with their letters to show style matches for an item.

Just clever how you quoted a couple of lines from Troy's response like the reported did. Very clever.

[otismalibu]

In fact, MEARS often gives Getty Image numbers with their letters to show style matches for an item.

That's good. Everyone should do that. They see value in style matching. So do I.

[trsent]

That's good. Everyone should do that. They see value in style matching. So do I.

No one disagrees with that.

[joelsabi]

[I]

I know the vast majority of you will cringe when you read this next part, but I emailed Mr. Kohler and pointed out that this was actually Erving’s 1983 AS game MVP jersey. [B]How did I know this? I photo matched the jersey. Yeah, I thought about keeping that nugget of info to myself. So the item was pulled and put in the December monthly auction, with a min. bid of $7500. It sold for over $73,000.


As a side not to this story. Mr. Kohler sent me an email, said thanks and told me it would be the feature item of the next auction. I replied to both Mr. Kohler and Mr. Erving and suggested that a few autographs for some of my items would be a nice thank you, seeing I probably just put $15-30K back in their pockets. This was a conservative guess, because the 2nd auction had not yet run. Looking back now, I would say the difference was more like $50-60K. I never got a reply from either gentleman.

Greg,

After seeing their inaction, please promise me you will keep that type of nugget to yourself next time or at least share it with another Dr. J collector who might not otherwise afford "the steal" or with someone like your buddy Joel A. who can front the money and split the profits with you when you both flip it.

This is just another of many examples where a players cannot identify his own jersey correctly.

I have always been impressed with your passion for the player you collect, Julius Erving. You photo library of Dr. J is second to none and made watching the auction of Dr. J's personal collection very interesting.

Regards,

Joel

[trsent]

Greg,

After seeing their inaction, please promise me you will keep that type of nugget to yourself next time or at least share it with another Dr. J collector who might not otherwise afford "the steal" or with someone like your buddy Joel A. who can front the money and split the profits with you when you both flip it.



My wallet is always open to partner in a deal with Greg!

[34swtns]

This is just another of many examples where a players cannot identify his own jersey correctly.




Like Mike Alstott, after being presented with 2 of his size 48 game jerseys to sign, recently telling me "No, those couldn't be mine. I always wore a size 52".
Okiedokie, big fella'! (He never wore a size 52).

[jake33]

I worked in media for 7 years. 5 in radio and 2 or a CBS affiliate and was an interviewer/reporter for 1 of those 2 years. I am not an expert in the field, but can attest to my statement below first hand on both sides of several interviews.

"If you agree to give any quote by your own free will for a media outlet, the more you comminicate to the interviewer, it makes you prone to have select sentences or statements used. I am not saying it is RIGHT or wrong, just a fact."

The news paraprases. The best way to talk to any news outlet is by qualifying each statement as descriptive and non general as possible. For example specific cause and effect statements. Do not generalize, that will make you open for being missenturped. Also, record your own statements during any interview.