AMI Auction: Dennie Martinez "Rookie"

[ironmanfan]

The current AMI auction contains a lot (8891) which is described as a "1976 Dennis Martinez Game Worn Jersey (Rookie)"

The main thing wrong with this jersey is that it is a number 30 which Dennis did not wear until 1977 (his second year). I have photographic evidence of Dennis wearing number 61 after his Septemeber call up which is easily backed up by an Orioles program I own as well two reference books (Stang & "Now Batting...."). The number 30 was worn by two Orioles players in 1976, the first being Ken Holtzman and after he was traded to the Yankees in June, it was worn by Dave Pagan for the rest of the year (who was one of the players they rec'd in return).

The auction copy reads in part "this size (42) knit was worn by El Presidente in 1976 when he was a 21 year old rookie in Baltimore....the reason "D" was added was because the team also rostered Tippy Martinez
in '76. Dennis Martinez made his first appearance in May (my emphasis) while Tippy was on the roster Opening Day (again, my emphasis)."

Obviously that passage has nothing to do with the jersey's physical qualities but it is just so erroneous due to that fact that Dennis was recalled by the Orioles after the Rochester season was over on 09/09/76 and made his debut on the 14th of that month (pitched in four games). Tippy Martinez was not on the Orioles Opening Day roster that year since he was part of that Yankee trade that was mentioned earlier (06/15/76). These aren't simple "errors" as people like to refer to, but rather in my opinion just sloppy background work.

Interestingly, this same jersey was on eBay about a month or so ago & I contacted the seller with the same concerns and asked if there was a number/name change, etc. & he told me that there wasn't but that he would pull the auction & look into the situation. Obviously, he then consigned it to AMI.

Eric, I did contact AMI with these concerns on Friday evening and to be fair I gave them the weekend & all day Monday to respond and obviously they did not provide with me a courtesy of a reply.

And yes, for you at home keeping score, the jersey does come with a COA from Lou Lampson.

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=32346

[trsent]

And yes, for you at home keeping score, the jersey does come with a COA from Lou Lampson.

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=32346

What did Lou say when you asked him about his LOA?

Oh wait, that was not a realistic question.

[ironmanfan]

Joel, I guess the biggest part that blows me away that in the time it took them to fabricate the story of Dennis Martinez making his debut in May of 1976 and that Tippy Martinez was on the Opening Day roster that year, they (god forbid) could have spent 5 minutes to discover the facts.

I'm awaiting a response from either AMI or their apologists (including Ron F., James Rast, et al) for some sort of an intellectual response. Of course, the facts are on my side so I'm interested on what kind of a reply I would receive.

[trsent]

Joel, I guess the biggest part that blows me away that in the time it took them to fabricate the story of Dennis Martinez making his debut in May of 1976 and that Tippy Martinez was on the Opening Day roster that year, they (god forbid) could have spent 5 minutes to discover the facts.

I'm awaiting a response from either AMI or their apologists (including Ron F., James Rast, et al) for some sort of an intellectual response. Of course, the facts are on my side so I'm interested on what kind of a reply I would receive.

Odd, the description reads:

"D. MARTINEZ" is sewn directly to the jersey in plain block font. The reason "D." was added was because the team also rostered Tippy Martinez in '76. Dennis Martinez made his first appearance in May while Tippy was on the roster on Opening Day. Inner tail tagging includes a Rawlings "The Mark of a Pro" tag with two suspended flag tags: "1976" and Set 1."

Your assessments are correct, since Dennis made his debut according to Baseball Reference September 14, 1976 vs. DET 5.7 IP, 4 H, 5 SO, 1 BB 0 ER, W, while Tippy was traded to the O's June 15th, 1976 from the Yankees. It does not list the date Dennis was called up and placed on the O's rooster.

I can only assume AMI will make the changes to this lot (or pull it) once things settle down from the auction that ended last week.

[ironmanfan]

My reference on the day that Dennis was recalled from Rochester was from the 1977 Baltimore Orioles Media Guide.

[ironmanfan]

Wow (ALMOST MAGICALLY) this auction NOW reads as NOW been worn in 1977 labeled as "ROOKIE ERA" ...does anyone hear 1978 or 1979?

I guess this means that my chances to be in Vic & Kieta's new video have been eliminated????

Of course, I am still waiting for a courtesy of a reply.......

[hblakewolf]

Ironmanfan-
People have noted that the "Major Auction Houses" don't waste their time reading this Forum, and don't reply to posts seeking specific info. about an itme in an auction.

Strange how quickly the description was changed on this jersey after your post.

Remember.......only collectors read this Forum-not the auction houses....think again!

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[ironmanfan]

It's hard to believe that I HAVE to do their HOMEWORK for them and that if they only would have changed their listing after contacting them FOUR days ago with the information prior to posting on this forum, no one would have been the wiser, it could have been fixed....Oh well...... To quote Kieta & Vic, "IT DOESN'T GET BETTER THAN THIS........."

Bill
whhp72@yahoo.com

[ironmanfan]

I'm curious as to what proof this jersey was worn in 1977 (particularly since Denny wore # 61 in 1976)? Why wouldn't Denny's # 30 tops be labled as 1977 in 1977???????????? What legwork does AMI show do indicate this?

Bill
whhp72@yahoo.com

[Eric]

Give 'em a call. See what they say. Can't hurt.
Eric

[hblakewolf]

Bill-
Quite possibly a copy of your email will be attached to the original Lampson LOA-who knows!

Send your question to the folks at AMI. I too am curious as to the research conducted to conclude this was worn in 1977. I would not suggest sending it to Kieta, as a previous post indicated she is extremely involved with making huge Hollyoowd blockbuster films.


Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net


I'm curious as to what proof this jersey was worn in 1977 (particularly since Denny wore # 61 in 1976)? Why wouldn't Denny's # 30 tops be labled as 1977 in 1977???????????? What legwork does AMI show do indicate this?

Bill
whhp72@yahoo.com

[ironmanfan]

Eric, I gave them adequate time to repond since the 22nd......The pros at AMI only changed their direction after I responded with FACTUAL information this morning on this forum (same FACTUAL information I provided to them the 22nd). I am awaiting their FIRST response to me. I want to hear what they ACTUALLY know about his jersey.

Bill
whhp72@yahoo.com

[sportscentury]

Folks, I don't even know where to begin with this. What a mess. This is beyond embarrassing - it is shameful.

Bill, you left out a couple of major AMI apologists/defenders: Rocco and Dave/CollectGU. Perhaps one or both of them can chime in here to explain this all away. It would take a brilliant magician, though. Ron F.'s recent depiction of the AMI gang blew my mind.

Reid

[Eric]

Bill

You have gone above and beyond here. But don't you just want to know what they had to say about it?

Maybe "James A. Rast" will answer the phone.
Eric

[sportscentury]

Bill

You have gone above and beyond here. But don't you just want to know what they had to say about it?

Maybe "James A. Rast" will answer the phone.
Eric

Eric,

Bill doesn't need to waste his time. I can tell you what they'd say (based on many, many personal experiences with them). It will start out with "Hey, Buddy, great to hear from you!" Everyone is AMI's "Buddy." Then, after the question is posed, one of two canned responses will follow: (a) "We'll need to get back to you about that, Buddy." or (b) "Lou's not in right now, Buddy, but we can relay a message for you."

To quote Howard: "When will the madness end?"

Reid

[ironmanfan]

Eric, while as much as much as I would love Mr. Rast to answer the phone at AMI, their silence to me almost 96 hours ago SPEAKS VOLUMES!

I love that my KNOWLEDGE (I'm not on AMI's payroll) has changed their auction description. I haven't received a dime nor a thank you!

Dave O'Brien (Collect GU) where are you??? ..............I'd love to hear from Ron F. as well Obviously, I've given up on Rocco or Mr. Rast...

The facts are on my side, please tell me what you know....

Bill
whhp72@yahoo.com

[kingjammy24]

bill,

there are a few possibilities here.

one possibility is that orioles received a blank spare in 1976 and didn't use it until 1977 when they had it numbered and lettered. in this case, the jersey would be labeled as a 1976 and martinez's name and 1977 number 30 would all be original, unaltered with no ghost stitching. i've seen clubs order spares and not use them until the following year.

the second possibility is, according to ami, that the jersey was carried over from 1976 to 1977. this implies that the jersey was first worn by either holtzman or pagan in 1976 and then given to martinez in 1977. i believe the lack of a nameplate may indicate that, during 1976/77, the orioles weren't fond of re-using jerseys as the lack of a nameplate makes it substantially more difficult to remove nobs. if re-using jerseys was their common practice, then you'd think they'd order jerseys with nameplates.

for the purposes of this discussion, let's assume the orioles re-used jerseys during those years. if the jersey was carried over from holtzman or pagan to martinez, then you'd have to see evidence of a name change. it would be very unlikely to strip off a directly sewn name like holtzman and then affix d.martinez and not be able to see evidence of the prior name. you said that the original seller indicated it was all original and unaltered. if that's the case, then how was the jersey carried over from holtzman/pagan? secondly, the ami description makes no mention of evidence of a name change.

if everything is original and unaltered, then a carryover seems impossible. i think a far more likely explanation is that the jersey was a 1976 blank spare that was lettered and numbered in 1977 when martinez joined the team. that would explain the tag, the number 30, and the fact that everything is original and unaltered.

p.s. i don't think it's realistic to expect kieta to have done this legwork. her "vast hollywood connections" probably keep her overwhelmingly busy.
you don't get an impressive imdb profile like this http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0452662/ by sitting around researching 1976 orioles jerseys.


rudy.

[CollectGU]

Bill,

You asked me to chime in. It looks like they made an error in the description and then corrected it based on your e-mail and/or your post. Personally I think that is the responsible thing to do, and I don't see a problem with that. If you want credit, what don't you call them and ask why they didn't thank you...I have no idea why you felt you needed to take a swipe at Ron F. as he has nothing to do with this....

Dave

[stkmtimo]

Speaking of Kieta, what's her last name? Rudy, the imdb profile is a classic. The Full House credentials really make her legit.

Tim

[hblakewolf]

Tim-
It appears you are a real novice to Hollywood scene and possibly the National Enquirer.

In this day and age, who's not familiar with the likes of the ultra famous "one name stars" such as of Cher, Charo, Fabio, Madonna, Lassie, and of course Kieta!

Really.........;)

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[Oil Can Dan]

Bill,

You asked me to chime in. It looks like they made an error in the description and then corrected it based on your e-mail and/or your post. Personally I think that is the responsible thing to do, and I don't see a problem with that. If you want credit, what don't you call them and ask why they didn't thank you...I have no idea why you felt you needed to take a swipe at Ron F. as he has nothing to do with this....

Dave

Personally, I think the responsible thing to do is to spend enough time researching the items you're putting your name behind to get it right the first time. How much time & effort would have been required for them to have gotten it right? And why does it take four days for them to correct the error of their ways?

And by the way, just where did they get that Dennis Martinez made his debut in May? That isn't a true statement for 1976, 1977, 1978 or 1979. I can't see where that statement could possibly have come from except from 100% thin air. To me that's the most interesting aspect of this mess - just where exactly did that come from?

[Eric]

Seriously, no joke. Let's put the system to the test. Please ask that question about the where the authenticator came up with the may debut to ami to pass along to lou. I would love to know the answer.

Do the experiment right and let's see how long it takes to get an actual answer.

Eric

[Oil Can Dan]

The language about the May debut has been removed. I suspect we're never going to know where that came from, and the door is open for the "geez they made a simple mistake and corrected it" crowd. Oh well.

[Eric]

I don't say "oh well." These people can curse us out and tell us to "get a life" but at the end of the day they have to listen. Nice work everyone.
Now (at least with this lot) someone's not going to pay good money for something that isn't as authenticated.
Eric

[ryan4fregosi]

I've just had my first look at this Martinez "Gamer", and it's awful. It looks like a hastily tossed-up leftover.

The name on back as well as both sets of numbers are the wrong style and far too large. This thing isn't a genuine Dennis Martinez jersey from any season, 1976 or otherwise.

(In my honest opinion, of course, but I'm no Lou Lampson, so don't take my word for it...)

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=32346

[ryan4fregosi]

http://i22.ebayimg.com/01/i/04/e9/ef/61_1_b.JPG

http://i22.ebayimg.com/01/i/04/e9/ef/61_1_b.JPG

[kingjammy24]

as far as i know, the front numbers are supposed to be 5-5 1/4" and the back 7". based on "imagery analysis", i think i'd say the front numbers are the right height, but clearly not the correct font. the incorrect font simply looks larger than the correct one, but after measuring the two against each other it appears they're practically the same height. see below. both images have been sized so that the "orioles" script is the same size.

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/2079/orioleslq3.jpg

while the fonts are clearly different, i'm unsure why. either it's not legit or it was done up for the orioles by a local shop who made an error.

rudy.

[ironmanfan]

I agree that the number fonts are way wrong (which I realized as well) but the genesis of my original email to them and then my post here was that there was NO WAY this could have been worn in 1976 (which one could not refute) & what proof that it was worn any other year.

[kingjammy24]

bill,

if the nob and number are original and unaltered, then i agree it's practically impossible for martinez to have worn this jersey in 1976.

however, as you know, ami has recently amended it's description and now states it was worn in 1977. in general, i think one plausible scenario is that this jersey was received as a blank spare in 1976 and was made up and used in 1977. i've seen this specific practice occur. do you believe this scenario to be unlikely?

you cite as an issue that there no proof that martinez wore this jersey in 1977. this is an "issue" affecting most jerseys. what proof is there that any player wore any jersey? it all comes down to likelihoods. the most you can ever say about any non-photomatched jersey is that it was "very likely" to have been worn by that player.

as for martinez wearing this jersey in 1977, i don't think the 1976 tag poses a big concern for the reason i stated above. what i do think is a major concern is the fact that the numbers are the wrong font. they aren't even close.

for discussions sake, if the fonts were correct, what proof would there be that martinez didn't wear the jersey in 1977? that is, does the jersey, as a 1977 martinez gamer which is what ami is now calling it, have any other issues other than the fonts?

rudy.

[bigtime59]

To say the Orioles were erratic in their choice of number fonts during the 70s and into the early 80s is to be somewhat generous...but, IIRC--and again, I'm much better 1989 forward than backward--when the Orioles used full block numbers like the ones shown on this jersey, I believe the rear numbers should be 6" and the name should be black only. Full block numbers and two-color NOB should be restricted to road jerseys during this period.
Once again, the combination of Lou! Lampson! and an Orioles! jersey! results in a major! train! wreck! with! lots! of! fatalities! (Why does he write LOAs like Shatner reads lines?) :eek:

[Eric]

There's another D. Martinez for sale in coach's corner. At first I thought it was the same jersey but this one has a 1979 flag tag

http://www.myccsa.com/piclot.asp?lot=51

http://www.myccsa.com/photos/051.jpg

[ironmanfan]

Eric...to be honest, I think it's the same jersey (they just misidentified the year tag). Perhaps the buyer from the AMI auction wasn't happy & consigned it to CC