Babe Ruth Signed Bat? Help Requested

[bat_master]

Hi Everyone,

I decided last night to take a chance on an item that I'm hoping was lost in the listings on ebay and not an outright forgery. The item is advertised simply as a 'Vintage 1920s-1940s Hillerich & Bradsby Bat', ebay #130028753504. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSAA:US:11&Item=130028753504)

I was the high bidder in that auction, but wanted to get some thoughts on it. What do you think of the Ruth sig? Does anyone here even think there is a remote chance it could be real? According to the answered question the bat is 33 inches long.

Thanks
Tim Byington

[trsent]

The seller appears to state the bat may have been looked over by an autograph authenticator who did not approve the signature since their letter comes with the item.

The bat has not been authenticated by a well known authentication company or authenticator. But it was examine by a impendent one. The letter in question will be sent with the bat to the winner of this auction.

I would say if the letter approved the autograph, the seller would have sold the item as such with a genuine autograph. Still a neat item for $100.00.

[bat_master]

Exactly. I figured for around $100 it was at least worth a shot. I think when I get it I'm going to send it either to JSA or PSA and have them look at it. I guess I'll hope for the best.

Thanks

Tim

[Rob L]

The signature is well done, but PAAS is one of the better authentication companies. PAAS has three authenticators look at it and they must all agree before they deem the signature authentic. You may want to send the bat to JSA or PSA/DNA (if Mike Gutierrez will look at it) for a second opinion.

Rob L

[skipcareyisfat]

Tim - On the bright side, there's always Coaches Corner!

[sammy]

The signature is not authentic.

The examination was performed by Donald Frangipani, as per the knob.

The autograph will not pass PAAS, PSA/DNA, GAI.

[bat_master]

Sammy,

How did you know that by looking at the knob?

Thanks

Tim

[sammy]

On the knob is the following:

SEL - 184 DF

SEL are the initials of the person who sent the bat to Mr. Frangipani

184 is the 184th item Mr. Frangipani has looked at for this person

DF is Donald Frangipani

[bat_master]

Sammy,

That is awesome information as I had no idea. Not awesome in the fact that it isn't a legit signature, but awesome in that I think we all now have something new to watch for.

Since this item was sold as a vintage bat only, and not an autographed item...and I was foolish enough to buy it any suggestions for recourse?

My first thought is that I should simply hold onto the item or destroy it to keep the item out of the hobby. I would feel good about destroying it I guess even though I would still be out the $100.

Maybe I'll just see what the rest of the bat is like and remove the sig. Maybe it will make a nice display as is.

Thanks for the help! Sammy, great information!!!

Tim Byington

[slidekellyslide]

Donald Frangipani probably wouldn't know a real Ruth signature from a fake one since he was responsible for thousands of fakes getting certified in the first place. I'd have a respectable authenticator check it out before you destroy it.

[Rob L]

Donald Frangiapani was part of the Operation Bullpen sting that busted the largest forgery ring. The Marino's (the forgers) sent the majority of their items to DF for authentication because they knew he would pass the items. A second opinion is necessary in this instance.

Rob L

[sammy]

Personally, I wouldn't send the bat to PSA/DNA, Spence, or any of the others.

PSA and Spence both charge 150.00 plus shipping for a Ruth signature and they will tell you it is fake. GAI will charge you 10.00 to tell you what I am stating for free, plus about 35.00 to ship it back.

The autograph is not legitimate, but if you must have a so called expert tell you the same thing I am stating, do this.

When you get the bat, take a very clear photo of the autograph. Place it on eBay for a .01 starting price, this will cost you .20. Spend 7.49 to have PSA/DNA do a quick opinion. They will tell you what I have, and it will only cost you 7.70.

As per Donald Frangipani being part of the Marino forgery ring, that is entirely false.

He did issue certs for a lot of their items. but every authenticator and authenticating company in business at that time issued certs for their items.

Some only a few, some a lot.

[bat_master]

Hi Everyone,

At this point, I'm not exactly certain what I'm planning on doing. I agree with Sammy's point about it likely being a forgery and I don't need an expert to tell me that.

While I would love to be able to find some reason to return the bat for a refund I also don't want this item to end up back in the hobby by being re-auctioned.

As I said earlier, I will likely just hold onto the bat or destroy it.

Thank you for all the responses and help.

Tim Byington

[Vintagedeputy]

I'm no Ruth expert but I've seen enough to say that I wouldnt bet the farm on it being the fake that everyone thinks it is.....I'd say that it looks pretty good to me. Definitely worth the $ to authenticate. I'd try JSA before PSA/DNA though.

[kjjavic]

I don't see why the seller would offer a refund. He was honest in selling it as simply a vintage bat. I would keep it for its vintage display value.

[bat_master]

I agree that the seller was honest in the description. As of right now I have sent two requests to the seller for additional photos of the signature and of the H&B label on the bat. They have so far gone unanswered which makes me a bit nervous.

I think the biggest concern I have with this bat is not so much "What if it's fake?" The answer to that is pretty easy. If it's fake I remove the signature and resell it simply as an old bat. I believe the much more difficult question is "What if it's real?". I'm just not sure how much money I would want to stick into it to find out.

Sammy's suggestion of relisting it on ebay and using the PSA quick opinion would be an option so I might do that. However, I'm not sure that would be conclusive evidence either way. Part of me just wants to take the easy way out and use it to warm up the house in the fireplace.

As of right now I'm open to any all opinions on this bat both good and bad. I'm extremely grateful for the knowledge and am very pleased that a forum such as this exists.

Thanks

Tim Byington

[Rob L]

Richard Simon would be a better bet for authentication and his price is less than GAI and PSA/DNA. The signature, if fake, is close enough that it wouldn't hurt to have reinspected. The bat was not auctioned correctly if the seller was trying to sell the autograph (which he wasn't). PAAS requires that three members authenticate the signature. If one of the three is sure, they will not pass. DF is not a reliable authenticator.

Every once in a while an item will come up that is not auctioned correctly. My best pickup was a sheet from an autograph book that contained eight signatures of the 1933 Indians, including Walter Johnson. The guy who sold it knew little about baseball and had a "BIN" price of $ 75.00. I saw it, realized it was authentic, and bought it an hour after it was listed. It has since passed authentication. These deals are out there.

Just my $ 0.02.

Rob L

[slidekellyslide]

I agree with Rob....You should have this looked at by Richard Simon or another expert. Donald Frangipani is NOT an expert. Just don't destroy the signature or bat until you're 100% satisfied because it does look like a Ruth signature.

[Rob L]

The fact that DF writes on the bat itself with what appears to be a Sharpie-type pen on the knob is horrible. Low class all the way.

Rob L

[mjkm90]

Regardless of what anyone tells you, do not destroy the bat! If the signature isn't legit, simply sand and refinish it. A nice hand turned H&B (assuming the stamping is early) will be worth $100-$200 easy. The only thing against "the bat" is that it's under 34". Post a clear photo of the branding here when you get it.

[bat_master]

After contemplating the situation for quite awhile I decided that once I receive the bat I'm going to send it off to Richard Simon for authentication. I have already emailed Mr. Simon about it and am hopeful that he will be able to tell me for sure whether the bat is good or bad.

At this time, I am hopeful to actually receive the bat. I've sent two emails to the seller in the last 35 hours without response and just found out that his phone has been disconnected. This alone has me doubting as to whether or not I actually get the item.

Thanks to everyone for the help.

Tim Byington

[sammy]

I have 50.00 that says Simon agrees with me and fails the autograph.

Any suckers, I mean takers. :rolleyes:

This is a juvenile attempt at a Babe Ruth signature.


http://i16.ebayimg.com/01/i/08/60/be/59_3.JPG



Hi Tim,

Please post the results when you get the bat back.

[slidekellyslide]

Sammy, it sounds like maybe you know more than we do about autographs, but you have to admit that Frangipani is NOT a reliable source for authenticating autographs.

[bat_master]

Hi Everyone,

Here's the update: Today I received the bat complete with LOA from Donald Frangipani as well as the certificate of examination from PAAS stating that the autograph cannot be authenticated for the following reasons:
Sizing of letters, Atypical letter angle, slant, and/or pitch, irregular letter shape and/or formation, irregular spacing between letters, irregular strokes/pen movement, lacks flow and spontaneity.

Now for the good stuff!

The bat is NOT 33" as listed in the auction. It is actually 36" and 29.7 oz and is a 1921-31 pre-powerized H&B with SIDE WRITING opposite of the Babe Ruth "autograph". As far as I can tell from examining the sidewriting it is "37 / 38 3/5 W.T. Core 9-24-24". Could also be W.T. Gore? Pretty exciting I think!

Now all I have to do is try to decide whether or not I should pursue the Ruth auto having any possible legitimacy and try to find out more about Mr. Core (Gore?).

If anyone knows sidewritten bats (Marcus?) and would like to help find out a bit more about it since I've never owned one please chime in or email me at t_byington@yahoo.com

Thanks!

Tim Byington

[bat_master]

Correction, I believe the side writing is actually 37 / 38 oz W. T. Core 9-24-24.

Tim Byington
t_byington@yahoo.com

[sammy]

Dang,

I wish someone would have taken my 50.00 bet.

[Rob L]

Dang,

I wish someone would have taken my 50.00 bet.


Sammy, how do you know so much about DF's numbering system? Also, who is "SEL"? I don't think that the SEL initials were in the original Operation Bullpen. Maybe some more indictments soon?

[sammy]

Hi Rob,

I'm aware of DF's numbering system because I have been in this business a long time, and have seen and know something about most of the well known people in this hobby, and quite a few that don't really want to be known.

In regard to "SEL", I really don't know who or what that stands for. It could be someone's name, city, or special code. Mr. Frangipani would generally use someone's initials, but he has been know to switch to town abbreviations and codes for special requests.

There are a lot of people who used Donald Frangipani besides the Marino clan. He was once considered the "Go To" guy for authentication purposes. His COAs were at one time used in a lot of major auctions and by many sellers, including Sotheby's.

I seriously doubt there will be any more indictments in regard to anything Mr. Frangipani has done or may be related too.

[slidekellyslide]

Sammy, what you say about Mr. Frangipani being at one time the "go to guy" doesn't make him any more reliable than we know him to be. HBO sports exposed his "Expertise". I'm not saying the signature on the bat is real or fake, but nobody should ever rely on anything Mr. Frangipani has an opinion on.

[sammy]

I was clarifying an opinion by some that Donald Frangipani only authenticated for the Marino gang.

He has authenticated for many different people and companies, not just the Marinos.

Thus, if you see his cert on something, that does not automatically mean the item came from the Marinos, or one of their associates.

This is another version of my answer to the previous question posted for me, for those of you who do not understand my previous post.