Tom Seaver 1969 WS Jersey

[Doodles]

This would certainly be the most valuable Met jersey of them all...is this the real deal? Why would the Mets take the same jersey from the NL playoffs and move the centennial patch and put on a logo patch on the left sleeve? I always assumed they got a new set of jerseys for the World Series, with the logo patch ready to wear into 1970, and slapped a centennial patch on the other sleeve.

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7051&lotIdNo=37067#Photo

[gingi79]

The title claims that it is photomatched to both the champagne celebration from the NL Championship and game 4 of the WS. Can anyone chime in on whether they agree or disagree with that claim based on the photos presented on the auction but also the fact we have a half a dozen really tenured Mets collectors on this site?

I'm with Doodles, even as a Braves fan this would be the greatest Mets jersey of them all if it is what it's claimed to be. I'm secretly hoping it is proven real as our hobby is only enriched by having such a gem within it.

[cohibasmoker]

Here are a couple of scans - The 1st scan is before Game 4 and the 2nd scan is a post-game shot. You guys decide.

Jim

[Doodles]

Thanks Cohiba...it is tough to tell...your first scan shows the top right tip of the T right on a pinstripe...the auction item shows a bit of white between T and stripe. Also, the Met sleeve patch looks lower on the sleeve in the scan. Could they have worn two sets during the WS?

Your second scan is of Gil Hodges and seems non-applicable.

[Doodles]

I never thought of this before...why did the Mets WS jerseys have different patches than during the season? I assumed they wanted to have nice jerseys for the WS, so being cheap back then, they pre-ordered 1970 jerseys with the standard Met logo patch on the left sleeve and had to move the MLB patch to the right. Afterwards, they simply removed the MLB patch and had their jerseys for 1970. More likely, I think, is that their home jerseys were ragged and champagne soaked after 2 raucous celebrations...the NL East and the pennant. The roads were ok and were used in the series.

[metsbats]

http://www.seth.com/coll_memorabilia_01_play.html

This jersey belongs to Seth Swirsky. Seth also owned the 86 WS game 6 Mookie ball. He's a very high end collector and used to post on the GUF years ago.

I believe this jersey is the real deal based on the photos.

[flaco1801]

I'm sure that they used (2) home shirts...

[cliffjmp33]

Here's a piece from Sports Collector's Digest with Seth about auctioning his items.

http://www.sportscollectorsdigest.com/featured/seth-swirsky-talks-about-selling-prized-collection

[akrover]

He is the one who owns the disputed Ezra Sutton contract that Hauls of Shame has been writing about, right?

[yanks12025]

He and heritage are also selling Jim leyritz Home run from 1999 world series. Yet legendary auctions was selling a ball attributed to the same home run a month ago. They pulled the item because of their being two balls, while heritage is still selling theirs. Seth and heritage only said that the other is fake. Legendarys came from leyritz himself, while Seth's came from Jim's ex-wife.

[metsbats]

A good collector friend Joel Weingarten, who specializes in 1969 WS bats and Mets flannels contacted me with some interesting observations regarding the 69 WS Tom Seaver jersey in Heritage auctions.

I've taken these observations and created a pictorial to compare and contrast.

Observations

1. The celebration photo in the auction description cannot not definitively match the auction jersey as Seaver is wearing a jacket which covers most of the jersey (particularily the "M" as we will see later will be important)

2. The 2nd photo in the auction certainly is a close photo match of the auction jersey however the photo was taken pre-WS due to the locations of the MLB centennial patch and Mets Skyline patch.

3. Comparing the getty image of Seaver from the 69 WS in this thread to the Heritage jersey it is now clearly apparent that the pinstripes around the "M" do NOT match the auction jersey. Joel used this same photo to point this out too.

4. There is a 69 Seaver game worn jersey that was in the Mets HOF which more closely photo matches the getty image photos from the 69 WS. The Mets Skyline patch is correctly located on the left sleeve (indicating WS) however it looks like the MLB centennial patch was removed. Seaver signed it and inscribed 69 game jersey.

Possible scenarios

- Heritage jersey is certainly a 69 game used Seaver jersey and the auction photo is a very close photo match to photo 2 based on the pinstripes. However the location of the patches would make it a regular season jersey at that point in time and quite possibly used in the NL East clincher.

- The Mets Museum jersey is more closely photo matched to the 69 WS photo and could possibly be the jersey worn in the 69 WS. Perhaps the MLB centennial patch was removed after.

- The patches on the Heritage jersey was switched by the team and used as a backup jersey during the WS.

- The patches on the Heritage jersey was not switched by the team and was done to turn a regular season jersey look like a WS jersey. (worst case)

I've contacted Heritage auctions regarding this and sent them the photographic evidence (Joel has also reached out to them). They stated they were able to photomatch this jersey to the NL East clincher and the WS game 4 action and I've asked them to provide the additional evidence.

What are your thoughts? Can anyone help find more photos to match the jersey to the 69 WS?

[Doodles]

Great analysis...here is my theory:

After 2 raucous champagne celebrations, the Mets 1969 jerseys, with MLB patch on left sleeve and no logo patch, were in terrible shape. The Mets, wanting to look good in the WS, got a shipment of new jerseys. Being very cheap back then, and not having the foresight to know how valuable they would be, the Mets figured they would just keep using those WS jerseys into 1970. So they ordered them with the logo patch where they would usually be and moved the MLB patch to the right sleeve. Then in 1970, they simply removed the MLB patch and had their 1970 jersey.

The jersey in the museum looks exactly like the WS pictures...here is a picture after the series was clinched in game 5...going by the top tip of the T which touches the pinstripe, the jersey matches the museum jersey. The Heritage Jersey T does not touch the pinstripe.

[Doodles]

Clearly, the Heritage jersey was not Seaver's jersey from WS Games 4 or 5...that was the museum jersey, as further analysis proves below. Was game 3 the Heritage jersey?

[metsbats]

Clearly, the Heritage jersey was not Seaver's jersey from WS Games 4 or 5...that was the museum jersey, as further analysis proves below. Was game 3 the Heritage jersey?


Yet another pinstripe inconsistency.

If we can find photos of Seaver from Game 3 that would be the only way to confirm.

[metsbats]

Seaver only started game 4 at Shea. It'll be extremely difficult to find Game 3 or Game 5 photos of him not wearing his jacket I would think.

[Doodles]

Seaver only started game 4 at Shea. It'll be extremely difficult to find Game 3 or Game 5 photos of him not wearing his jacket I would think.
Metsbats,

My photo of Seaver with his jersey open IS Game 5...a famous scene when he went onto a destroyed field after the celebration. Game 5 is the same jersey as Game 4 and is the museum jersey. Still need game 3 photo. That would likely need to be a pre-game pose, as he wore his jacket during the game.

[metsbats]

Metsbats,

My photo of Seaver with his jersey open IS Game 5...a famous scene when he went onto a destroyed field after the celebration. Game 5 is the same jersey as Game 4 and is the museum jersey. Still need game 3 photo. That would likely need to be a pre-game pose, as he wore his jacket during the game.


That's great! So game 3 it is.

We had a similar situation with a proported Gary Carter 86 Game used jersey which was at the Mets HOF. It was proven that Carter wore the same jersey for each of the home games at Shea and the HOF jersey was not it.

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=45980&highlight=gary+carter+world+series

I would be really surprised if a second jersey was worn for game 3 of the 69 WS but you never know.

It's funny the Mets thought they were displaying Gary Carter's game worn 86 jersey and all along they had Seaver's 69 game worn jersey right under their noses.

[Doodles]

I would be really surprised if a second jersey was worn for game 3 of the 69 WS but you never know.

It's funny the Mets thought they were displaying Gary Carter's game worn 86 jersey and all along they had Seaver's 69 game worn jersey right under their noses.

I totally agree...with all the patch moving necessary, why would they do all that to have a second WS jersey for every player?

[metsbats]

Update: Upon further photographic analysis, the jersey does not appear to match the jersey worn by Seaver in Game Four of the World Series. However, the jersey is matched to the NLCS clinching game and the sleeve patches do assure it was prepared for World Series use in which it was likely worn in the dugout.


Here's the update Joel received from Heritage. They have conceded that the jersey was not worn in game 4 but are indicating a match to the NLCS clinching game. I've not seen any photo matching from that game produced yet. Additionally they have come up with the theory that the auction jersey was most likely used in the dugout (for one game nind you) to justify it being a WS jersey.

[Doodles]

Update: Upon further photographic analysis, the jersey does not appear to match the jersey worn by Seaver in Game Four of the World Series. However, the jersey is matched to the NLCS clinching game and the sleeve patches do assure it was prepared for World Series use in which it was likely worn in the dugout.


Here's the update Joel received from Heritage. They have conceded that the jersey was not worn in game 4 but are indicating a match to the NLCS clinching game. I've not seen any photo matching from that game produced yet. Additionally they have come up with the theory that the auction jersey was most likely used in the dugout (for one game nind you) to justify it being a WS jersey.



It does look like a match to the Seaver picture from 1969...so it is a likely a historic jersey, even if not worn in the WS. If I needed to own a Seaver WS jersey, even if I believed Heritage's story, that jersey was not the one Tom pitched in...so why pay the premium?

I still see no scenario where the Mets would want to take every jersey and move the MLB patch and add the logo patch for one game. It is patently absurd actually.