1989 Pete Rose Gamer on ebay

[CollectGU]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1989-Pete-Rose-GAME-USED-Cincinnati-Reds-BASEBALL-Jersey-AUTOGRAPHED-signed-WORN-/261086713149?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cc9fb153d

I noticed the 1989 Pete Rose gamer on ebay with three LOA's appears to have the scoreboard tagging as opposed to the true 1989 tagging in that it is missing the 4th laundering instruction "Do not use in Automatic Dryer" and the incorrect numeral font on the size.

This link details a discussion on the tagging:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=50478&highlight=scoreboard

Does anyone have a 1989 gamer of a common player without the 4th laundering instruction?

[ironmanfan]

appears as if one of the LOA's comes from our own Dave Miedema...I'm sure Dave can add his insight on this....

[CollectGU]

Any input or thoughts from our Reds collectors or Dave? I know that Sports Investments is a big reds memorabilia owner/dealer, but I don't think the jersey is good. If presented with the facts, the owner could possibly try and and get a refund from them?

[schubert1970]

Since the jersey has an LOA from Sport Investments, I'm sure it's 100% genuine. I've never had a problem with any of their items. Give them a call if you want more information about the jersey. I'm sure they would be happy to anyswer any of your questions.

[CollectGU]

Since the jersey has an LOA from Sport Investments, I'm sure it's 100% genuine. I've never had a problem with any of their items. Give them a call if you want more information about the jersey. I'm sure they would be happy to anyswer any of your questions.

I can't really tell if you are kidding or serious?! I detailed my issues with the jersey above. Based on reasearch, i think it is a scoreboard jersey. I am sseing if someone has tagging of a common player from 1989 that matches this Rose tagging. I am also hoping Dave chimes in on this since his LOA is attached...

[tacprc]

Does anyone have more precise information on the Scoreboard jerseys? In what year(s) were they sold? Which players? How many jerseys per player? How were they sold -- via SCD ads only? Thanks.

[jbsportstuff]

That's the most pristine flag tag I've ever seen from a "game used" jersey. I own a Browning from 1989 and you are exactly correct on the tagging having a 4th and a 5th line. I'll post pics later tonight. I think that you have something. Anyone can make a mistake on issuing a COA.

Mine has a 4th line that says "Do not use" and the 5th line says "automatic dryer."

[jbsportstuff]

That's the most pristine flag tag I've ever seen from a "game used" jersey. I own a Browning from 1989 and you are exactly correct on the tagging having a 4th and a 5th line. I'll post pics later tonight. I think that you have something. Anyone can make a mistake on issuing a COA.

Mine has a 4th line that says "Do not use" and the 5th line says "automatic dryer."

The font on my size 44 is different as well.

[jbsportstuff]

The font on my size 44 is different as well.
Here is the tag from my 1989 Browning jersey.

[CollectGU]

Thanks for posting. Your jersey certainly helps further confirm my tagging theory. Would like to hear from Dave on this.

Here is the tagging on another common from 1989:

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/pics/17431_01_lg.jpg

[tacprc]

Was Pete Rose definitely part of the Scoreboard product line?

As regards the players like Schmidt that were part of the product line, how often do their Scoreboard jerseys show up for auction on eBay or elsewhere?

I have not seen an unusual number of 1989 Rose Reds home jerseys on the market -- meaning that I rarely see one, just as I rarely see Rose jerseys from any other particular year (besides maybe 1985).

[schubert1970]

I can't really tell if you are kidding or serious?! I detailed my issues with the jersey above. Based on reasearch, i think it is a scoreboard jersey. I am sseing if someone has tagging of a common player from 1989 that matches this Rose tagging. I am also hoping Dave chimes in on this since his LOA is attached...


I'm 100% serious.

[sox83cubs84]

I agree the tag inconsitency exists, but, like Chuck, I've never seen a quantity of 1989 home Rose jerseys in the marketplace. As for the 1990-91 Rawlings tag being on a 1989 jersey, I believe way back in the dark ages, I posted photos of a couple of Mets commons with the 90-91 tag on 1989 jerseys on the MEARS site. It's rare, to be sure, but, until there's proof that Rose was a Score Board participant, I stand by my call.

Dave Miedema

[CollectGU]

Thanks for the info. Dave. If anyone has or can post commons from 1989 with the 1990-1 tagging that would debunk my theory. Anyone else have any 1989 commons?

[CollectGU]

Here is an 1989 Rose gamer with proper tagging for 1989:

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/pics/19693_01_lg.jpg

[CollectGU]

Also notice the font size, NOB, and logo size difference between the more common tagged 1989 Rose jersey I postedand the offered ebay jersey. Which is proper for the Reds in 1989:

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1989-Pete-Rose-GAME-USED-Cincinnati-Reds-BASEBALL-Jersey-AUTOGRAPHED-signed-WORN-/00/s/MTU1N1gxNjAw/$(KGrHqVHJFQE+TingyIGBQNU+N2+UQ~~60_57.JPG
































http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1989-Pete-Rose-GAME-USED-Cincinnati-Reds-BASEBALL-Jersey-AUTOGRAPHED-signed-WORN-/00/s/MTU2M1gxNjAw/$T2eC16VHJGYE9nooiL8dBQNU+yOhzg~~60_57.JPG

[jetersbatboy]

Any chance that somewhere a long the line, the letters where taken from a legit Rose gamer and add to this one?

[tacprc]

That American Memorabilia jersey looks new and unused to me.

Another potential wrinkle here is that Cable Value Network sold Rose Reds home jerseys on 23-Aug-89 and maybe 24-Aug-89 (= the day that he was banned from Baseball). I would assume that these were replica jerseys of some sort, but I don't know.

[tacprc]

Here is the tag from my 1989 Browning jersey.

Can you please post some photos of the outside collar and inside stitching on Browning's name? Thanks.

[dougiedshow]

Hopefully this helps, I recently met Ken at the National so thought I'd just go to the source. I've known Ken for 12 years via fantasy baseball. Met him for the first time in Baltimore when he was promoting his new auction goldinauctions. See below, hopefully this helps. While it can't speak to this specific jersey, at least it gives us an answer on Rose. I know he does have a relationship with Rose. You probably saw on ESPN that he is auctioning off Rose's MLB banishment contract. http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8378511/pete-rose-banishment-pact-hit-auction-block Anyways, below is the reply he sent when I asked about this jersey. Hope it helps.

Post on there you spoke to ken goldin and in 89-91 rawlings would allow SB to order jerseys that were basically "game ready" and had year and set tags in them. Pete Rose jerseys were signed and sold with set tags in them
Also post my email. Ken@goldinauctions.com (Ken@goldinauctions.com) and tell them I am open to individually helping out any collector who emails me, and would like to post at GUU but no forum operator currently exists to activate accounts.

This should ingratiate me with the group, until I have an account.

[dougiedshow]

Wow, I managed to say hopefully this helps for 50% of my post. I should proof these things.

[ironmanfan]

Hopefully this helps, I recently met Ken at the National so thought I'd just go to the source. I've known Ken for 12 years via fantasy baseball. Met him for the first time in Baltimore when he was promoting his new auction goldinauctions. See below, hopefully this helps. While it can't speak to this specific jersey, at least it gives us an answer on Rose. I know he does have a relationship with Rose. You probably saw on ESPN that he is auctioning off Rose's MLB banishment contract. http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8378511/pete-rose-banishment-pact-hit-auction-block Anyways, below is the reply he sent when I asked about this jersey. Hope it helps.

Post on there you spoke to ken goldin and in 89-91 rawlings would allow SB to order jerseys that were basically "game ready" and had year and set tags in them. Pete Rose jerseys were signed and sold with set tags in them
Also post my email. Ken@goldinauctions.com (Ken@goldinauctions.com) and tell them I am open to individually helping out any collector who emails me, and would like to post at GUU but no forum operator currently exists to activate accounts.

This should ingratiate me with the group, until I have an account.

Good information here, no doubt. I was wondering if anyone could post tagging from any common player/any team dated 1989 which shows that Scoreboard style tagging?

[trsent]

So, can we finally put to rest this jersey is not what is advertised? It hurts because it happens from time to time, but there is little doubt that this jersey was not a game used 1989 Pete Rose jersey.

Scoreboard or not, the jersey is not correct for the time or era as a game used jersey. An error was made authenticating it and just because the seller is a first class seller (I can vouch for them as being one of the best) the jersey being offered on eBay is not what it was originally authenticated as and the letters should be revoked by those who wrote them because time has passed and we can all agree more information is now available than 12 years ago and this jersey is not properly tagged to be a game used jersey.

Remember, Scoreboard was doing nothing wrong - They ordered jerseys from Rawlings and had them autographed. They were basically ordered pro-cuts that were delivered similar but slightly different from what the players actually wore. No one was thinking back then they could later sell these jerseys as game used.

[CollectGU]

Good information here, no doubt. I was wondering if anyone could post tagging from any common player/any team dated 1989 which shows that Scoreboard style tagging?

The above further validates my theory, until i see a common with the scoreboard style tagging.

Great additional info provided from Dougiedshow. I would like to hear from Reds experts on the font size difference on the numerals and on the logo between the 1989 Reds jersey I posted with the proper tagging and the ebay jersey with the "scoreboard style" tagging.

Which is correct for the Reds in 1989?

[esquiresports]

The font on my size 44 is different as well.

One thing that hasn't been previously noted in the Scoreboard discussion threads but I have noticed with Scoreboard jerseys is that they also lack the "Made in the USA" notation on the patch. The Rose jersey lacks this notation. I'm not claiming that the Rose jersey is from Scoreboard. It's just an observation.

Scott

[tacprc]

So, can we finally put to rest this jersey is not what is advertised? It hurts because it happens from time to time, but there is little doubt that this jersey was not a game used 1989 Pete Rose jersey.

Not so fast. Personally, I want a lot more information.

Where is the proof that Scoreboard sold Rose jerseys? For example, I would like to see a magazine ad.

In what years did they sell them? In what venue?

[tacprc]

I agree the tag inconsitency exists, but, like Chuck, I've never seen a quantity of 1989 home Rose jerseys in the marketplace. As for the 1990-91 Rawlings tag being on a 1989 jersey, I believe way back in the dark ages, I posted photos of a couple of Mets commons with the 90-91 tag on 1989 jerseys on the MEARS site. It's rare, to be sure, but, until there's proof that Rose was a Score Board participant, I stand by my call. Dave Miedema

Dave, Let's say that the Reds or Rose ordered more jerseys in the middle of the 1989 season because he had given away most of the initial order. Is it possible that those jerseys would have had the later tagging? Thx.

[CollectGU]

Dave, Let's say that the Reds or Rose ordered more jerseys in the middle of the 1989 season because he had given away most of the initial order. Is it possible that those jerseys would have had the later tagging? Thx.


What about the NOB and numeral size, and logo size on the ebay jersey?

The pictures I have been able to find show it match the 89 jersey I posted from AMI and not the ebay jersey. I would like reds experts to help answer which jersey has the proper size numeraqls and letters and logo for 1989...

http://i.usatoday.net/sports/_photos/2007/12/30/rosex.jpg

[dougiedshow]

Ken says he personally owns several of these Rawlings scoreboard autographed jerseys. He will post pictures of his jerseys so that we can compare the tagging as soon as his guu account is approved. I didnt ask, but maybe he has a list of athletes as well, that could put a lot of these issues to bed.

[yanks12025]

Ken says he personally owns several of these Rawlings scoreboard autographed jerseys. He will post pictures of his jerseys so that we can compare the tagging as soon as his guu account is approved. I didnt ask, but maybe he has a list of athletes as well, that could put a lot of these issues to bed.

Well he may be waiting for sometime, I've heard from other people who tried to register and they were either never approved or it took along time.

[lon lewis]

Someone asked for a scan of a "common player" with the '90 tags in an '89 jersey so here you go- 1989 Pat Sheridan S.F. Giants road jersey. Sheridan was traded to the Giants by Detroit in June of 1989.

[CollectGU]

Great info. Lon. So, this shows that there are 89 jerseys that can have the 1990 tagging in them. Being a common confirms, that while not the norm, that they are out there tagged like the 90 jerseys...

Still hoping someone can proviode insight on the font size questions between the two 89' Rose gamers in the thread to verify which is correct...

[esquiresports]

And missing the "Made in USA" and fourth laundry instruction. Very interesting. The more time I have spent looking into jersey matters, the more I learn there are few if any absolutes pre-early 1990s at least.

[sox83cubs84]

Dave, Let's say that the Reds or Rose ordered more jerseys in the middle of the 1989 season because he had given away most of the initial order. Is it possible that those jerseys would have had the later tagging? Thx.

Given the timing of the Sheridan shirt's initial usage that was shown, I could see it as a possibility.

Dave M.

[CollectGU]

Given the timing of the Sheridan shirt's initial usage that was shown, I could see it as a possibility.

Dave M.

What about the the font and logo size. Which 1989 jersey is correct? The pitcure I posted appears to show the larger fonts as on the 1989 with the laundering instructions. Here is a photo of Ron Oester from 90 topps card (photo taken likely in 89) with the what appears to be larger logo like seen in the 1989 jersey I posted and different than the 89' on ebay. Did they wear two different size logos and numerals and NOB's in 1989?

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41FSLxg-F9L._SS400_.jpg

[trsent]

What about the the font and logo size. Which 1989 jersey is correct? The pitcure I posted appears to show the larger fonts as on the 1989 with the laundering instructions. Here is a photo of Ron Oester from 90 topps card (photo taken likely in 89) with the what appears to be larger logo like seen in the 1989 jersey I posted and different than the 89' on ebay. Did they wear two different size logos and numerals and NOB's in 1989?

No they didn't - Everyone is hoping they have found something here that there isn't. The Pete Rose jersey being discussed has no evidence of being game used/worn but a lot of evidence of being a Scoreboard style jersey.

Someone asked for proof Scoreboard had these jerseys - Ken Goldin, posting through someone else, said they did Pete Rose back then, but if that isn't proof enough, did you ever think that maybe Scoreboard wasn't the only company with access to order pro-cut style jerseys in this era? Who knows if they sold elsewhere to any other companies.

It doesn't matter - An error was made authenticating this jersey by three parties, one in 1994, one in 2000 and one in 2012. I will stand behind my comments, this jersey was not a game used jersey and I'm sorry people want to believe there is more to the story, but everyone involved should look at the history and the time and understand this jersey was authenticated in an honest error and that's all there is to it.

The fonts are wrong, the tagging is wrong, stating that Pete Rose ran out of jerseys and ordered extras mid-season is wishful thinking. I wish I wouldn't have blown two million dollars between 1999 and 2002, but I did and life goes on.

[tacprc]

Here are pics of 1989 Lenny Harris Reds home jersey. He was traded by the Reds to the Dodgers on July 18, 1989.

To my eye the logo, letter, and number sizes match the Rose jersey on eBay, but I can't tell for sure.

[tacprc]

I found a wire photo of Rose appearing on CVN on 23-Aug-89. It's hard to say whether the jersey back pictured more closely resembles the eBay one or the one sold by American Memorabilia -- or neither.

[kudu]

Here is the ad for the Scoreboard Pete Rose jerseys (you'll have to scroll down a bit):

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=40071&page=7&highlight=scoreboard+jerseys

BTW Joel, sorry to read about your investment misfortune. Started out as a 3 cent stock. OUCH! I would've fired my stock broker as well.

[trsent]

Here is the ad for the Scoreboard Pete Rose jerseys (you'll have to scroll down a bit):

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=40071&page=7&highlight=scoreboard+jerseys

BTW Joel, sorry to read about your investment misfortune. Started out as a 3 cent stock. OUCH! I would've fired my stock broker as well.

Yeah, like I need to remember that missed investment while investing in the future that all went belly up!

Here is the image from the page, good find since some people still doubted if Scoreboard made these jerseys even after Ken Golden's comments!

57189

In other news on this topic, a well known former forum member who I used to argue with all the time emailed me and told me he couldn't believe that I was the only one who got it and people were still trying to justify this jersey as possibly being game used.

I'm not trying to rub it in anyone's face, but this jersey is not what it originally was believed to be and I'm sorry that I'm the only one who firmly mentions it on here and people are still trying to find images and proof that I am wrong.

When the original two letters of authenticity were written I can fully understand how the mistake was made - This jersey appeared to be a properly tagged game used jersey. Now we have all figured out the Scoreboard style of pro-cut game issued jerseys that were issued around the same era and have been, time and time again, attempted to be sold as game used. It is a fully understandable mistake.

[tacprc]

OK. That's one piece of the puzzle. Thanks for that.

Next, I'd like to see a picture of the tag from a Rose Score Board jersey. I have been communicating with Ken Goldin via email, and he thinks that he still has a Rose jersey. When he gets a chance, he will search and then take pictures.

I'd also like to see pictures of some more 1989 Reds home jerseys. To my eye (and I could be wrong) the Lenny Harris jersey has the same font sizes as the Rose jersey on eBay. I searched eBay and my Pete Rose collection for 1989 Reds news photos but didn't see any that clearly showed a jersey back.

p.s. I am not interested in proving anybody right or wrong. From what I've read, I gather that some of you have been on this Score Board trail for a long time and I salute your discoveries, but I don't think the facts are conclusive as regards the eBay jersey (or the American Memorabilia jersey). By the way both Lelands and Legendary have sold a 1989 Rose home jersey within the past ten years, but the auction listings don't show the Rawlings tags.

[tacprc]

I found a picture of the tags from a 1989 Paul O'Neill Reds home jersey, and I believe that it matches the Rose on eBay! I am sorry for the bad picture quality. I snapped it at the Reds Hall of Fame with a pocket camera. Four years ago the curator allowed me to review all their jerseys, and this was the only 1989 home.

[CollectGU]

In other news on this topic, a well known former forum member who I used to argue with all the time emailed me and told me he couldn't believe that I was the only one who got it and people were still trying to justify this jersey as possibly being game used.

I'm not trying to rub it in anyone's face, but this jersey is not what it originally was believed to be and I'm sorry that I'm the only one who firmly mentions it on here and people are still trying to find images and proof that I am wrong.

When the original two letters of authenticity were written I can fully understand how the mistake was made - This jersey appeared to be a properly tagged game used jersey. Now we have all figured out the Scoreboard style of pro-cut game issued jerseys that were issued around the same era and have been, time and time again, attempted to be sold as game used. It is a fully understandable mistake.


I am agreeing with Joel. After seeing the scoreboard advertisement, how the fonts and numbers in back perfectly match up with the ad, and that it is signed in blue sharpie as the ad mentions, I don't think this would pass authentication as game worn Pete Rose jersey knowing that scorebaord had these available.

I'm wondering based on all this if Dave is still standing behind the LOA. He stated that until he saw proof that Rose was a scoreboard participant, he stood by his call. Proof has been provided. Will he now be rescinding the LOA?

Dave

[jppopma]

I can't say for sure on the legitimacy of the jersey, but will caution that the one offered for sale is not the same as in the scoreboard ad.

The ad makes no mention of any tagging, which had always been one of Scoreboard's trademark selling points (they did sell autographed authentics on top of their "Scoreboard" jerseys). If the Rose in the ad had a tag, they would have more certainly included that in the description.

It will all come down to how much of a risk someone might be willing to take on this jersey.

[trsent]

Really? Really?

Really?

(Trying to quote The Miz, poorly so)

Keep trying to justify this jersey folks. I'll take the don't and y'all can keep dreaming something is what it will never be found to be.

Using the theory that Scoreboard in some other adds mentioned pro-cut tagging but they didn't in one ad for Pete Rose doesn't mean the jersey wasn't pro-cut. Hopefully someday one of these pops up for sale on eBay. That would be cool and end this discussion real fast.

[suave1477]

Really? Really?

Really?

(Trying to quote The Miz, poorly so)

Keep trying to justify this jersey folks. I'll take the don't and y'all can keep dreaming something is what it will never be found to be.

Using the theory that Scoreboard in some other adds mentioned pro-cut tagging but they didn't in one ad for Pete Rose doesn't mean the jersey wasn't pro-cut. Hopefully someday one of these pops up for sale on eBay. That would be cool and end this discussion real fast.

I cant believe im gonna do this again. But I actually agree with TRSENT!!

[joelsabi]

Someone asked for proof Scoreboard had these jerseys - Ken Goldin, posting through someone else, said they did Pete Rose back then, but if that isn't proof enough, did you ever think that maybe Scoreboard wasn't the only company with access to order pro-cut style jerseys in this era? Who knows if they sold elsewhere to any other companies.



this could well be jersey special ordered for a Reds charity event and were intentionally tagged with mismatched tags by Rawlings to differentiate from a team issued jersey. Reminds me of Rawlings made a small modification for promo gloves given to UDA.

if this was a carry over tag issue this would be a 1990 Pete Rose jersey which we all know he was managing anymore.

[joelsabi]

if this was a carry over tag issue this would be a 1990 Pete Rose jersey which we all know he was managing anymore.


meant WASNT

[commando]

The Scoreboard Rose jerseys were not marketed as heavily as most of their others during that time (Bo Jackson, Will Clark, Nolan Ryan, etc...) I'd love to hear Ken comment on the timing of the Rose deal. I have a suspicion that the whole gambling thing went down pretty soon after the Scoreboard inked their deal with Rose. Regardless, Scoreboard print ads ran the Rose jersey for a very short period of time. It is of course possible that the Rose jerseys were sold through some medium other than print ads.

All we DO know is that these Rose jerseys show up today much less frequently than the Scoreboard Bos, Wills and Nolans. If the Rose jersey in question does indeed turn out to be a Scoreboard, I can see how authenticators could have made a mistake on this one.

Here are two Scoreboard ads for their Rose jersey. The photos Scoreboard used are poor in quality compared to all the other photos in the very same ads.... for whatever reason.

I look forward to hearing what Ken himself has to say about it.

[trsent]

I cant believe im gonna do this again. But I actually agree with TRSENT!!

Dinner and a movie next time you agree with me.

[tacprc]

Fyi, I have an old hard copy printout from eBay showing the front and back of a 1989 Manny Trillo Reds home jersey: number 9, Rawlings size 41, Set 1 1989. He was released by the Reds on May 25, 1989.

The jersey is similar to the Lenny Harris jersey that I posted earlier. The tag is the same style -- which does not match the Rose (eBay) or O'Neill (Reds HOF) jerseys. And to me eye the logo, letter, and number sizes match the Rose jersey jersey on eBay.

[CollectGU]

Tacprc, I just realized that is is your jersey on ebay?

Dave

[tacprc]

Was, until recently. So, yes, I am especially interested in finding out the truth.

[trsent]

Was, until recently. So, yes, I am especially interested in finding out the truth.

Ok, so you are Chuck Lumb who Dave Miedema originally wrote the second letter for and you wrote the third letter. Sorry about the findings of this jersey, but it's history is understandable. Now it's obvious the jersey is not what it originally was believed to be. Just rotten luck that time helped discover.

You can keep trying to dig up findings, but I have looked at this and I have consulted others in the industry who cannot believe this discussion has gone on so long because the jersey is a classic Scoreboard model jersey and it is fully understandable why the jersey was mis-identified over the years.

[tacprc]

We'll see. Ken Goldin should post photos early next week.

[trsent]

We'll see. Ken Goldin should post photos early next week.

It doesn't matter what Ken posts, but if it makes you feel better about it that is your choice. The jersey has too many red flags that have been discussed in this discussion and pulling strings is not going to make this jersey game used which it never was.

[tacprc]

This jersey was Lot Number 1371 in the Lelands auction that ended 14-Dec-03. It appears to resemble the American Memorabilia jersey in terms of the sizes of the letters, numbers, and Reds emblem on the front and back.

[tacprc]

This jersey was Lot Number 1085 in the June 2006 Mastro/Legendary auction. It appears to resemble the eBay jersey in terms of the sizes of the letters, numbers, and Reds emblem on the front and back. It came with an LOA from Dave Bushing & Troy Kinunen/MEARS.

[joelsabi]

This jersey was Lot Number 1085 in the June 2006 Mastro/Legendary auction. It appears to resemble the eBay jersey in terms of the sizes of the letters, numbers, and Reds emblem on the front and back. It came with an LOA from Dave Bushing & Troy Kinunen/MEARS.

Pretty sure it received a A5 from Mears.

[jppopma]

Using the theory that Scoreboard in some other adds mentioned pro-cut tagging but they didn't in one ad for Pete Rose doesn't mean the jersey wasn't pro-cut. Hopefully someday one of these pops up for sale on eBay. That would be cool and end this discussion real fast.

Joel, You sell alot of pro-cut jerseys. I know you make certain that you indicate the tagging on the jersey as that is what makes it a pro-cut. Scoreboard would have done the same if they were marketing the Rose jerseys as a signed pro-cut. Scoreboard also sold autographed authentics and the Rose listing is worded much like those jerseys were described. I just don't see that the Rose Scoreboard add has much evidenciary value...that's all my theory is based on. JP

[sox83cubs84]

I would like to see Ken Goldin's photos, as well, but I agree that I may have made an error, based on information not known in mainstream circles at the time. I await Ken's input anxiously.

Dave Miedema

[tacprc]

Joel, You sell alot of pro-cut jerseys. I know you make certain that you indicate the tagging on the jersey as that is what makes it a pro-cut. Scoreboard would have done the same if they were marketing the Rose jerseys as a signed pro-cut. Scoreboard also sold autographed authentics and the Rose listing is worded much like those jerseys were described. I just don't see that the Rose Scoreboard add has much evidenciary value...that's all my theory is based on. JP

JP, When you say "autographed authentics," do you mean a team issued jersey or a non-pro-cut replica? Thanks.

[tacprc]

Someone asked for a scan of a "common player" with the '90 tags in an '89 jersey so here you go- 1989 Pat Sheridan S.F. Giants road jersey. Sheridan was traded to the Giants by Detroit in June of 1989.

Lon, Could you please tell us the size (length, width) of the letters and numbers on the front and back of your 1989 jersey? Thanks.

[joelsabi]

Lon, Could you please tell us the size (length, width) of the letters and numbers on the front and back of your 1989 jersey? Thanks.

How would Sheridan use "1989" jersey with 1990 tagging? Has to be team issued 1990 Sheridan jersey though he never played in the major in 1990.

[tacprc]

I think we've determined that what some thought was 1990 tagging does appear in 1989 jerseys. The Paul O'Neill jersey was another example.

[tacprc]

Fyi, I received an email from a Reds collector as regards the Rose eBay jersey. He said, " I do like the bleeding between the sleeve stripes. All the 1989's I have ever owned had the same bleeding."

[joelsabi]

I think we've determined that what some thought was 1990 tagging does appear in 1989 jerseys. The Paul O'Neill jersey was another example.

on the oneill is that 3 (1989) or 4 (1990) lines of washing directions? i cannnot tell from your photo.

also how would a 1990 tagging even appear on a Set 1 of a player jersey?

[joelsabi]

on the oneill is that 3 (1989) or 4 (1990) lines of washing directions? i cannnot tell from your photo.

also how would a 1990 tagging even appear on a Set 1 of a player jersey?

opps 3 (1990) or 4 (1989)

[joelsabi]

also how would a 1990 tagging even appear on a Set 1 of a player jersey?

i figured out this is possible as each order even late in the season are renumbered (ie. 2 jerseys in an order has a set 1 and a set 2)

[trsent]

Joel, You sell alot of pro-cut jerseys. I know you make certain that you indicate the tagging on the jersey as that is what makes it a pro-cut. Scoreboard would have done the same if they were marketing the Rose jerseys as a signed pro-cut. Scoreboard also sold autographed authentics and the Rose listing is worded much like those jerseys were described. I just don't see that the Rose Scoreboard add has much evidenciary value...that's all my theory is based on. JP

In 1989-1990 no one knew what a pro-cut was. That term became the norm with NBA jerseys a few years later.

I have received a lot of contact over this jersey, and I'm suspicious of all four jerseys posted, 1989 Set 1. Did Pete Rose order some extras? How come two jerseys are signed identically in the center of the front and two signed identically below the #14 on the front? Makes me think something is suspicious with all four.

I have been told that Pete Rose may have been selling his jerseys in 1989 also, but very odd all four jerseys have similar signature on the front. I'm beginning to question all four jerseys as being Scoreboard. If Pete was selling them himself, how could the signature always be in a similar location of two places? Didn't any get signed on back?

I'm so confused. In the meantime, I stand behind my original assessment of this jersey and I'm sorry to see a mistake was made.

[tacprc]

The 1989 O'Neill Reds home jersey has three lines of washing instructions.

[joelsabi]

The 1989 O'Neill Reds home jersey has three lines of washing instructions.

So this jersey has a 1990 jersey tag with a 1989 flag tag. Since a jersey cannot exist prior to the year the jersey tag was introduced, my only logical conclusion is that the jersey was from 1990. The jersey should speak for itself regardless of what some curator told you and I can understand why the curator would think it was from 1989 with a 1989 flag tag staring at hime. However, I have to go with Rudy's findings as he has studied so many Rawlings tags from this time period. The tags on the O'Neil jersey look very clean by the way.

[tacprc]

So this jersey has a 1990 jersey tag with a 1989 flag tag. Since a jersey cannot exist prior to the year the jersey tag was introduced, my only logical conclusion is that the jersey was from 1990. The jersey should speak for itself regardless of what some curator told you and I can understand why the curator would think it was from 1989 with a 1989 flag tag staring at hime. However, I have to go with Rudy's findings as he has studied so many Rawlings tags from this time period. The tags on the O'Neil jersey look very clean by the way.

Ummm, No. Rather what some thought was 1990 tagging does appear in 1989 jerseys.

[joelsabi]

Ummm, No. Rather what some thought was 1990 tagging does appear in 1989 jerseys.

and what is your sampling to come up with that conclusion?

i wont post again as we differ in opinion.

just a food for thought:
http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=991&highlight=rawlings

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showpost.php?p=25841&postcount=8

[tacprc]

Sample? Just in this thread the Sheridan and O'Neill jerseys and possibly the Rose jersey on eBay.

Also, here is a post by mattmueller on 4-24-09 in one of your links.

"Just wanted to add to the 1990 style tagging used on some 1989 jerseys discussion above. Below is a photo of a 1989 Jay Aldrich Milwaukee Brewers jersey, which contains the 1990 style tag.

As an update by Rudy in a recent thread indicates, the tag style change appears to occured mid-year so late season callups may likely have the new tagging."

I searched all of Rudy's (kingjammy24) posts from just before 4-24-09 but couldn't find the exact one referenced by mattmueller. The last post that I can see from kingjammy24 is dated 4-06-09 due to the 500 post limit.

[trsent]

This is even getting too confusing for me.

If your name is Joel you should just quit now, right? I'm game.

[joelsabi]

Sample? Just in this thread the Sheridan and O'Neill jerseys and possibly the Rose jersey on eBay.

Also, here is a post by mattmueller on 4-24-09 in one of your links.

"Just wanted to add to the 1990 style tagging used on some 1989 jerseys discussion above. Below is a photo of a 1989 Jay Aldrich Milwaukee Brewers jersey, which contains the 1990 style tag.

As an update by Rudy in a recent thread indicates, the tag style change appears to occured mid-year so late season callups may likely have the new tagging."

I searched all of Rudy's (kingjammy24) posts from just before 4-24-09 but couldn't find the exact one referenced by mattmueller. The last post that I can see from kingjammy24 is dated 4-06-09 due to the 500 post limit.

I actually tried to locate the same post where Rudy changed his position. It would make perfect sense if the tag was introduced around 8/89. The road Sheridan is a perfect example and explain why a late traded players,beside late season callups, would have the rare tagging combination.

I just never saw Rudy comment to Matt's reply nor saw Rudy's post changing his stance in hid own thread. If someone finds that post please post it here or the Rawlings Tagging Thread. Thanks Tacprc.

[tacprc]

It would make perfect sense if the tag was introduced around 8/89. The road Sheridan is a perfect example and explain why a late traded players, beside late season callups, would have the rare tagging combination.

Or even as early as June 1989 since Pat Sheridan was traded by the Detroit Tigers to the San Francisco Giants for Tracy Jones on June 16, 1989 per the Baseball Reference website.

[tacprc]

I checked Baseball Reference, and believe that Jay Aldrich first pitched for the Brewers in the 1989 season on May 23rd -- so that means the tag switch may have happened as early as May 1989 (or even the start of the regular season).

[tacprc]

Paul O'Neill was with the Reds from the start of the 1989 season. I note that his jersey has an extra length tag -- so maybe he asked for a new jersey after the start of the season.

[dougiedshow]

This debate so long, I don't even know if anyone has referenced these...

http://www.mearsonlineauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=48796
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AUTHENTIC-1989-CLARK-GIANTS-SCOREBOARD-AUTOGRAPHED-RAWLINGS-GAME-JERSEY-/330797341025
http://sports.mearsonlineauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=50606&searchby=3&searchvalue=scoreboard&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=100&category=1&seo=1990-circa-Darryl-Strawberry-Gregg-Jefferies-Dwight-Gooden-New-York-Mets-Signed-Scoreboard-Jerseys

I'm sure this is zero help. Tagging is all over the board.

[KGoldin]

TEST


http://www.ebay.com/itm/1989-Pete-Rose-GAME-USED-Cincinnati-Reds-BASEBALL-Jersey-AUTOGRAPHED-signed-WORN-/261086713149?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cc9fb153d

I noticed the 1989 Pete Rose gamer on ebay with three LOA's appears to have the scoreboard tagging as opposed to the true 1989 tagging in that it is missing the 4th laundering instruction "Do not use in Automatic Dryer" and the incorrect numeral font on the size.

This link details a discussion on the tagging:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=50478&highlight=scoreboard

Does anyone have a 1989 gamer of a common player without the 4th laundering instruction?

[trsent]

TEST

Welcome to the forum Ken! I'm glad they were able to get you finally approved.

[KGoldin]

Welcome to the forum Ken! I'm glad they were able to get you finally approved.

WOW...ok, finally
Here is scoop. I am jammed up non stop for about another 48 hours trying to close the first Goldin Auctions catalog. Once that is done, I will come on here and do 2 things
1) I will post in this thread specfically on the Rose jersey
2) I will create a new 'score board jersey history and Q&A' thread...

but i do not have time to do all this second, and certainly do not have time to respond so let me get the work here complete, send the catalog to printer, then i am the forums.
glad to be here, glad to help
ken

[KGoldin]

Hi All
I am still buried trying to close the catalog, but at least wanted to post this. I will answer any additional questions early next week when i am sure i will be freed up

1. Score Board did have 1989 pete Rose jerseys signed. Home , white tagged jerseys. i do NOT believe these were sold on CVN the night he was banned (because about 500 were sold that night, and they were too cheap..the raw jerseys to get made up with full tagging cost between $75-$100 depending on team, if i remember accurately.)
Pete made appearances for Score board on the smaller (at the time) QVC in sept 11 1990 to commemorate his 15 year anniversary of the hit, and they likely were sold on that show on that date.

2. I have not looked carefully at the EBAY rose jersey referenced here, been too busy. I therefore do not have an opinion on it. I also am not one who usually gives opinions on items, especially an 89-91 jersey 'Score board or game used' without looking at it in person, because while I would be excellent looking at it in person, i hate to look at internet photos and get something incorrect or speculate as it is unfair to the potential buyer and/or seller. The exception to this rule will be in cases where someone is selling something as a score board item, and i know for a fact it could not. I do happen to remember the terms and most all items signed under every major contract the company had.

3. I did not find a sample of Rose at my house, although i did a bunch of others from the time period I will post at some point hopefully next week.

I hope this helps , and I am glad to finally have an activated account here.
Ken Goldin
www.goldinauctions.com (http://www.goldinauctions.com)

[tacprc]

Ken, Thanks for your comments. I wanted to mention that Pete Rose served a five-month prison sentence for tax evasion beginning 8-Aug-90 so he could not have appeared on QVC precisely on 11-Sep-90. Perhaps he appeared a bit earlier or later.

Also, I did some Google searches and found a Score Board contract in which Rose agreed to appear on QVC on 23-Jun-93 and 24-Jun-93 for three hours each day.

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/unique-pete-rose-signed-auto-contract-reds

[tacprc]

I did some Google searches and found what I think are two Score Board Pete Rose jerseys. Please note that the Rawlings tag appears on the tail front and has no year tag. Plus the tag stitching differs from that of both the eBay and American Memorabilia Rose jerseys.

http://www.collectauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=816

http://weissauctions.auctionflex.com/showlot.ap?co=6845&weid=0&weiid=1423898

[KGoldin]

yeah, Pete did so many appearances for SB back in those dates i could be a few months off on date. Plus he hosted a weekly TV show with him and Barry Didinsky as co hosts (for SB) , filmed in baltimore that was a syndicated sales show where his stuff was also sold



Ken, Thanks for your comments. I wanted to mention that Pete Rose served a five-month prison sentence for tax evasion beginning 8-Aug-90 so he could not have appeared on QVC precisely on 11-Sep-90. Perhaps he appeared a bit earlier or later.

Also, I did some Google searches and found a Score Board contract in which Rose agreed to appear on QVC on 23-Jun-93 and 24-Jun-93 for three hours each day.

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/unique-pete-rose-signed-auto-contract-reds