1968 Ohio State Football Jersey Ebay Fraud

[jeffaary]

I hope no one on here is bidding on this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/330796302574?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

I can't find a single picture of an OSU jersey from this era with sleeves this long. Every picture I have of OSU from 1966-1968 has the sleeves ending above the elbow.

It can't be Maciejowski's 1969 or 1970 jersey because the numbers moved from the sleeves to the shoulders in 1969 and changed from black to white on the red jerseys.

The seller is telling me I have no credibility even though I pointed him to several OSU books with reference photos and challenged him to show me a picture online of an OSU jersey from that era with sleeves that long. His own reference photo of Dave Foley shows the sleeves are too long.

[genius]

I can understand the frustration with trying to find a style match for a college jersey from this era. I collect Pitt and they wore about 20 different styles of jerseys, I have a Marino that took me almost 5 years to find a style match photo.

That said, this seller is a knowledgeable and reputable forum member and the jersey sure looks legit to my untrained eye. Seems like a great item.

[both-teams-played-hard]

Improperly identified. Mis-represented. Maybe.
But a "fraud" it ain't.

[jppopma]

Lack of a photomatch on a 60's jersey doesn't totally negate a jersey. In fact finding one would be a feat in an of itself.

While this jersey is outside the price range to do so, buying something and researching it for the next 5 years is all part of the fun.

[cohibasmoker]

Didn't the Seller post a style-match photo in their auction? What's the last scan show?

Jim

[jeffaary]

Didn't the Seller post a style-match photo in their auction? What's the last scan show?

Jim

As I said in the original post, the picture of Dave Foley the seller posted shows that the sleeves on the jersey in question are too long. I have over 100 photos that span every game of the 1968 season, and several from 1966 and 67 when the Buckeyes also wore this style jersey with black sleeve numbers. Not a single player in any of those photos has sleeves as long as the jersey in question.

[Flamechicken]

As I said in the original post, the picture of Dave Foley the seller posted shows that the sleeves on the jersey in question are too long. I have over 100 photos that span every game of the 1968 season, and several from 1966 and 67 when the Buckeyes also wore this style jersey with black sleeve numbers. Not a single player in any of those photos has sleeves as long as the jersey in question.

In your opinion, what is this jersey, if it isn't what the seller claims it to be?

Mike

[BrianK]

In your opinion, what is this jersey, if it isn't what the seller claims it to be?

Mike

Exactly what I was thinking. Whatever it is, this appears to be the same.
http://catalog.greyflannelauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=25135

[jeffaary]

Ohio State wore this style of jersey from the early 1940's through 1956, but without the sleeve numbers. Here's Jim Parker from the mid 1950's. Note the sleeve length (well below the elbows):
http://media.cleveland.com/startingblocks/photo/woody-hayes-apjpg-88a5d973cdaf9fad.jpg


In 1957 the Buckeyes changed to very bland uniforms. Here's Bob White:
http://buckeyefansonly.com/thegameimages/bobwhite.jpg


I believe the Buckeyes went back to the multi-stripes in 1966, and the black sleeve numbers appeared. Here's Bill Long from 1966. Note the sleeve length (above the elbows):
http://www.bucknutcollectibles.com/media/2/a2079291271d0b2c8fb2bf_m.jpg


In 1969 the numbers moved from the sleeves to the shoulders and changed from black to white on the red jerseys. Here's Jack Tatum from 1969 or 1970:
http://www.thesportsbank.net/core/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/jack_tatum_feature.jpg

So to the best of my knowledge, the only years the Buckeyes wore this style of stripe AND black sleeve numbers was 1966-68.

Regarding 1968, I have over 100 pictures from that season encompassing every game. Sleeves ending above the elbows on every style jersey (cold weather knit and warm weather mesh), every color jersey (home red and away white), and on every player (including Maciejowski).

Regarding 1966 and 1967, I only have a handful of pictures but they all show the same thing; sleeves ending above the elbows.

Based on the amount of data I have, I find it nearly imposible to believe the jerseys in question are from 1968. I have less data from 1966-67, so I can't make a similar statement, but it seems like a long shot that these jerseys are from those years either.

My guess is they are either from the earlier era with the sleeve numbers added to make it look like a 1968 jersey, or possibly Rawlings sold OSU-style jerseys to a high school/small college/semi-pro team and the sleeve numbers were added. This is pure speculation on my part and I have no way of backing it up, however.

If anyone can add to this, or disprove my information, please do so. There are a number of serious OSU jersey collectors on this forum, I'd definitely like to hear from them on this subject.

[beantown]

I am the seller of this jersey on Ebay...I have receieved nothing but positive feedback from collectors on Ebay as to what this jersey is...none have called it a "Fraud" like this individual "Jeffaary"...OSU football jerseys are not my area collecting or expertise...but to call this item a "Fraud" is
not warranted. Especially from "Jeffaary", who stated to me that this jersey maybe from the 1940's or 1950's...really??? Collecting 101...look at BTPH's primer on jersey tagging...this tagging was used by Rawlings from 1963-1971.

Moreover, Numerals from the 40's and 50's are much smaller than they would be in the late 1960's....again, an "advanced" collector like "Jeffaary" claims to be, should know this.

I have provided all the information that was provided to me when I purchased the jersey and have updated the auction listing when collectors provide additional information.

The most detailed information has just been emailed to me from another Ebay'er, which I posted in the auction listing, but will also provide here...


"Bottom line. This is almost assuredly from the November, 1969 game against Purdue. Have seen more photos of Ohio State football than I care to admit. Ohio State put black TV numerals on their jerseys in 1966. 1966 and 1967 being lousy seasons, not a lot of photos of them. The jersey first captured attention in the magical season of 1968. I have seen dozens of photos from every home game in 1968. No one is wearing a long sleeved jersey. No home game was played in weather cold enough to even want one. What IS interesting is that in certain games, certain players elected (Woody being permissive a bit) to wear net jerseys while others had the half sleeved heavy durene ones on. In the 1969 game against Purdue (a game played in a snow storm) numerous players had the long sleeved durene jerseys with the black TV numerals while others had the half sleeved durene with the white TV numerals. Paul Schmidlin, Stan White had long sleeved and black TV for sure. Mace could have as well. 1969 Purdue"

[jeffaary]

Beantown:

Your attitude towards me has been nothing short of snide from the beginning. Now it is continuing here. Look at the emails I sent you, and the text I posted here. I was cordial throughout, even when you started with name calling. You have been trying to make this personal from the start. It makes no sense. I want the jersey to be legit. If it was I'd be the first one to bid on it.

I have never claimed to be an expert, and I tried to share my information with you in a friendly matter. And just so everyone who reads this knows, I sent Beantown the link to this thread so he could come on here and get the same information I am.

You listed it on Ebay as a 1968 Maciejowski. Then you added to the Ebay text and said it might be from 1967 and not a Maciejowski. Then you told me he's wearing it in the 1968 team photo but the sleeves are scrunched up (BS). Now you say it is from 1969. If you have it listed as a 1968 jersey but the jersey is really from 1967 or 1969 and you know it (or think it), by definition that is fraud. The only reason to list it as a 68 instead of a 67 or 69 is to take advantage of the provenance of a national championship season.

Your research should have been done before listing the jersey as a 1968 Maciejowski jersey. Someone with your excellent Ebay feedback and apparent reputation on this board should have known better. With the number of serious OSU jersey collectors here you were bound to be called out by one of us. An "advanced" collector, as you like to call me, should know that.

Now regarding your latest claim about it being a 1969 Purdue game jersey, highly doubtful. Here's some video of that game. Short sleeve jerseys and white numbers on the shoulders, not black numbers on the sleeves. I guess only an "advanced" collector like me is smart enough to do a google search and come up with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01msx4zW7uY

Here are the 1969 road jerseys. Looks pretty cold on this November day in Ann Arbor as there's snow on the ground. The sleeves all end above the elbow:

http://bentley.umich.edu/athdept/football/umosu/1969/pixl/bl009524.jpg


So again I ask, is there anyone out there who can show us a picture of an OSU player actually wearing a jersey that matches the style (long sleeves, sleeve stripes, black sleeve numbers) of the jersey Beantown is selling?

[Flamechicken]

Beantown seems to be providing all the information that they are receiving about the jersey so that any potential buyers can make an informed decision themselves. I don't see any attempt by them to defraud anyone.

I've dealt with many shady sellers on EBay and none of them have been as forthcoming about the information they are receiving as Beantown appears to be.

Mike

[beantown]

Beantown:

Your attitude towards me has been nothing short of snide from the beginning. Now it is continuing here. Look at the emails I sent you, and the text I posted here. I was cordial throughout, even when you started with name calling. You have been trying to make this personal from the start. It makes no sense. I want the jersey to be legit. If it was I'd be the first one to bid on it.

I have never claimed to be an expert, and I tried to share my information with you in a friendly matter. And just so everyone who reads this knows, I sent Beantown the link to this thread so he could come on here and get the same information I am.

You listed it on Ebay as a 1968 Maciejowski. Then you added to the Ebay text and said it might be from 1967 and not a Maciejowski. Then you told me he's wearing it in the 1968 team photo but the sleeves are scrunched up (BS). Now you say it is from 1969. If you have it listed as a 1968 jersey but the jersey is really from 1967 or 1969 and you know it (or think it), by definition that is fraud. The only reason to list it as a 68 instead of a 67 or 69 is to take advantage of the provenance of a national championship season.

Your research should have been done before listing the jersey as a 1968 Maciejowski jersey. Someone with your excellent Ebay feedback and apparent reputation on this board should have known better. With the number of serious OSU jersey collectors here you were bound to be called out by one of us. An "advanced" collector, as you like to call me, should know that.

Now regarding your latest claim about it being a 1969 Purdue game jersey, highly doubtful. Here's some video of that game. Short sleeve jerseys and white numbers on the shoulders, not black numbers on the sleeves. I guess only an "advanced" collector like me is smart enough to do a google search and come up with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01msx4zW7uY

Here are the 1969 road jerseys. Looks pretty cold on this November day in Ann Arbor as there's snow on the ground. The sleeves all end above the elbow:

http://bentley.umich.edu/athdept/football/umosu/1969/pixl/bl009524.jpg


So again I ask, is there anyone out there who can show us a picture of an OSU player actually wearing a jersey that matches the style (long sleeves, sleeve stripes, black sleeve numbers) of the jersey Beantown is selling?

You've been confrontational...calling the jersey a "fraud"...would you care to explain the other jersey that was offered by Grey Flannel several years back?

I also looked at the youtube clip of the 1969 game vs. Purdue...the video is small, but it appears #53 on the Offensive Line is wearing long sleeves...check out the 1:07 minute mark...thoughts anyone?

[jeffaary]

would you care to explain the other jersey that was offered by Grey Flannel several years back?

I have yet to see any pictures or video that provides proof that either jersey is a legitimate OSU jersey from that era.

[jeffaary]

If I do I will be more than happy to enter the bidding.

[jeffaary]

I finally got a chance to watch the entire video. Maciejowski appears in one play at the 8:00 mark, and there's really good footage of him rolling out towards the camera and throwing. His jersey has short sleeves. Unless he wore more than one jersey in the game this information about it being from the 1969 Purdue game is incorrect. I don't see any of the other Buckeyes with long sleeve jerseys in this video either.

[trsent]

I finally got a chance to watch the entire video. Maciejowski appears in one play at the 8:00 mark, and there's really good footage of him rolling out towards the camera and throwing. His jersey has short sleeves. Unless he wore more than one jersey in the game this information about it being from the 1969 Purdue game is incorrect. I don't see any of the other Buckeyes with long sleeve jerseys in this video either.

It's fine if you don't like the jersey and have concerns about it, but using the word "Fraud" is not fair to the seller. They have reason to believe the item is legitimate. "Fraud" is someone selling something they know is not genuine as genuine.

The seller believes their item to be genuine from what I have read and I don't see any fraud here. If you have concerns with the item you shouldn't bid on it. I'm not sure where else this discussion has to go.

[jeffaary]

They have reason to believe the item is legitimate. "Fraud" is someone selling something they know is not genuine as genuine.
The seller believes their item to be genuine from what I have read and I don't see any fraud here.

Based on the evidence presented here, exactly what reason does the seller have to believe this jersey is a game worn 1968 Maciejowski jersey as it is listed on Ebay? The title of the auction and the information in the auction text has yet to be proven, in fact much of it has been proven incorrect in this thread.

Furthermore, the information in the auction continues to change. That means people who have already bid on the jersey are not getting what they thought they were getting. And based on the current bid price, which is considerably higher than the last two legitimate 1968 OSU jerseys that sold publicly brought ($950 each), my guess is the high bidders truly believed at the time of bidding that this is a game worn 1968 Maciejowski jersey. Would you be happy if you placed a $10,000 bid on a jersey listed as and described as Eli Manning's 2012 Super Bowl jersey, then the seller changed the text to say that according to another Ebayer it may be his 2007 pre-season jersey instead?

To be fair to the bidders, if I were the seller I would end the auction, start over, and describe the item with what we really know about the jersey. It is a jersey that has many characteristics of OSU jerseys from the 1966-68 era, but a picture or video of a player wearing a jersey in this exact configuration (long sleeves, black sleeve numbers) has not yet been found.

[trsent]

To be fair to the bidders, if I were the seller I would end the auction, start over, and describe the item with what we really know about the jersey. It is a jersey that has many characteristics of OSU jerseys from the 1966-68 era, but a picture or video of a player wearing a jersey in this exact configuration (long sleeves, black sleeve numbers) has not yet been found.

You are not the seller of the jersey, so you don't get to make those decisions.

[yanks12025]

I don't know anything about football gear, but if you put the jersey on top of pads wouldn't it then be smaller/shorter?

[pietraynor]

Not to add to the confusion, but in looking at the photo provided, the OSU player in the foreground appears to have black numbers on his shoulder area, while #32 (Tatum?) appears to have black numbers just above his sleeve area. Maybe it's the way I'm looking at it..anyone else see this? Jay

[beantown]

Received this from the winner of the auction...

Wow I just read the thread on GUF. I quit reading that when I sold my collection 3-4 years ago.

I can tell you I have now have the Maciejowksi jersey and matched it up to a 1968 Tom Ecrement #90 (scarlet) size 46, short sleeve which I have in my collection.

I can tell you that the jersey you sold me matches the '68 Ecrement in every way, but one.

Tagging Rawlings is the exact same as is the wash instruction tag.
Material: Scarlet durene is the exact same
Stiching: Is the exact same
Crotch Piece: sewn into shirt in the exact same way[/B]
Buttons are missing on Maciejowski ,but placement of thread and button indents is the same as the Ecrement
Stripes: The stripes on the jerseys are a dead on match.
Front and Back Numbers: Are almost identical in size. I can get exact measurements later, but the appear to be within 1/8th of an inch. Shrinkage can account for that.
Black TV numbers: Are dead on the exact same size.
Sleeve Length: The Ecrement is a very long short sleeve. The Maciejowski is a longer sleeve, but if you put this size 44 over some pads and then over the body, there is no way the end of the jersey sleeve comes close to the wrist.

If the #18 is not a OSU jersey than I have have no idea what it can be. It meets all the specifications of the Ecrement. The Ecrement has more game use and is just a wee bit lighter in color, but that has to do with washing and use. You cannot tell any color variations until you put them side-by-side and then it appears as if the Ecrement has some fading due to washing and the sun.

I could not be any happier with the jersey. Since I have been collecting OSU jerseys over the last 12 years I have only seen four jerseys come to auction from this time period. I own the Ecrement and Maciejowski. The #34 from Grey Flannel I did not get nor did I get a white '68 #53 from the same owner who sold me the Ecrement. Other than a 1955 scarlet Will Booth, which I own, I have not seen any other OSU jerseys come to market dated before 1969 other than these five. They are just that rare and hard to find. If you ever come across another please contact me.

[trsent]

Received this from the winner of the auction...

Wow I just read the thread on GUF. I quit reading that when I sold my collection 3-4 years ago.

I can tell you I have now have the Maciejowksi jersey and matched it up to a 1968 Tom Ecrement #90 (scarlet) size 46, short sleeve which I have in my collection.

I can tell you that the jersey you sold me matches the '68 Ecrement in every way, but one.

Tagging Rawlings is the exact same as is the wash instruction tag.
Material: Scarlet durene is the exact same
Stiching: Is the exact same
Crotch Piece: sewn into shirt in the exact same way[/b]
Buttons are missing on Maciejowski ,but placement of thread and button indents is the same as the Ecrement
Stripes: The stripes on the jerseys are a dead on match.
Front and Back Numbers: Are almost identical in size. I can get exact measurements later, but the appear to be within 1/8th of an inch. Shrinkage can account for that.
Black TV numbers: Are dead on the exact same size.
Sleeve Length: The Ecrement is a very long short sleeve. The Maciejowski is a longer sleeve, but if you put this size 44 over some pads and then over the body, there is no way the end of the jersey sleeve comes close to the wrist.

If the #18 is not a OSU jersey than I have have no idea what it can be. It meets all the specifications of the Ecrement. The Ecrement has more game use and is just a wee bit lighter in color, but that has to do with washing and use. You cannot tell any color variations until you put them side-by-side and then it appears as if the Ecrement has some fading due to washing and the sun.

I could not be any happier with the jersey. Since I have been collecting OSU jerseys over the last 12 years I have only seen four jerseys come to auction from this time period. I own the Ecrement and Maciejowski. The #34 from Grey Flannel I did not get nor did I get a white '68 #53 from the same owner who sold me the Ecrement. Other than a 1955 scarlet Will Booth, which I own, I have not seen any other OSU jerseys come to market dated before 1969 other than these five. They are just that rare and hard to find. If you ever come across another please contact me.

That's an awesome email and shows why no one should use the word "Fraud" to describe something that was in no way, shape or form "Fraud".

[yosef777]

Regardless of when or who wore that is a beautiful jersey! Love to see the durenes in the sea of micromesh and 'dazzle' fabrics.

[BrianK]

It's nice to hear the follow-up. Thanks to the buyer for posting. Just curious, does your Ecrement Jersey have a nameplate?