Is this enough for this jersey to be authentic?

[brianborsch]

Hello,

I recently won an auction for a 2006 Adrian Cardenas GU Jersey from the GCL Phillies. This was his first professional season since being drafted. I was wondering if the following is enough to prove that this is a legit GU Jersey. It is autographed by him as being GU in 2006 and there is a pic of him with the auto'd jersey. See the pics and let me know what y'all think:

[ironmanfan]

Re: Is this enough for this jersey to be authentic?

I think the fact that you purchased it directly from the club (keep the paperwork) and with the inscription from Cardenas that would be enough for me.

[brianborsch]

Re: Is this enough for this jersey to be authentic?

Hello,

I am sorry, my post says that I got it from the GCL Phillies but I actually didn't get it myself. I bought it from someone who did. He bought it from their club store in Clearwater. I will see if he can get me any paperwork.

[brianborsch]

Re: Is this enough for this jersey to be authentic?

My point is that you can't find something like this mass-produced right? I mean it must be highly unlikely with Cardenas being an unproven player in Pro-Baseball. Not to mention the auto and pics. I will even be getting a pic of him signing it.

[jessicawinters]

Re: Is this enough for this jersey to be authentic?

Have you checked the wash tag inside the jersey? It should say something like 0065. If that's the code, then it is definitely an authentic gamer.

[brianborsch]

Re: Is this enough for this jersey to be authentic?

Hey thanks Jessica!

I will do that as soon as I recieve it. In addition, I found that the Clearwater store no longer gives out LOAs so there goes thatb type of provenance. The seller is going to supply me with a copy of the reciept he got from the purchase, which is cool I think.

Hey I finally found some GCL pics of Cardenas though. I tell ya, talk about finding a needle in a haystack! These should help the cause. Check these out:

[kingjammy24]

Re: Is this enough for this jersey to be authentic?

brian,

at first i wasn't quite sure what you were asking in this thread. i wasn't sure if you were trying to determine authenticity or if you were wondering how to build up the provenance. at any rate, here are some answers:

- unfortunately, the possibility of an item being doctored or even just mis-labeled isn't negated by the fact that it wasn't mass-produced.

- if this is a 2005 BP jersey, then why do you think it's not mass-produced? aren't these readily available everywhere?

- the pic of him holding what is obviously the same jersey is nice. i try not to read too much into such pics though. that is, i take them at face value. to me, all a pic says is that the athlete once saw and held the same item. pictures don't make any sort of qualitative statement on the item; that is, a player holding a jersey doesn't say or even imply that the jersey is a gamer, a game-issue or a charity replica. pics don't imply that the jersey came directly from the player. all they say is exactly what they show; the athlete once held it. nothing more, nothing less.
i say this to caution those who see pics of players holding jerseys on so many ebay auctions. all it takes is a seller asking a player if they can take a picture of them holding some jersey. the player says sure, and next thing you know, buyers looking at the pic interpret it to mean that the jersey not only came directly from the player but is also a gamer. i think some people read into pics too much.
if given the option, i'd take a letter from the player stating the facts over just a picture of them holding the item.

- i wouldn't slap a guarantee on something solely because of the wash code. (if it's a BP jersey, the pro code would be 0065. 0062 is for game jerseys). 6200 and 6500 codes have been found in legit gamers and 0062 and 0065 codes have been found on jerseys in retail stores. rob steinmetz has some excellent insight into wash codes in the "watercooler" section on his site www.authenticgamers.com . if you come across a jersey with a 0062 or 0065 code and decide that it's automatically a gamer based solely on the code, you'll quickly find yourself sorely disappointed.

- if you purchased this jersey and are trying to determine it's authenticity, i'd say the best start would be the paperwork/provenance. the seller says they bought it directly from the team. they should have some paperwork.
the wash code and picture are nice but not conclusive. they do add weight though. the jersey appears to show good wear. try to find a photomatch. other than that, i'm not sure what more there is to do. even some of the best items in this hobby require a short leap of faith. aside from a photomatch, i'm not sure what you can do is conclusively "prove" it's a gamer. all you can really do is take the sum total of all of the parts (size, fonts, use, etc) and arrive at a conclusion that its either likely a gamer or unlikely. if everything measures up and you get the paperwork, then i'd say it's likely a gamer. if you want to conclusively prove it, then your only option is a photomatch.

rudy.

[brianborsch]

Re: Is this enough for this jersey to be authentic?

But aside from the wash-codes aren't BP and game jerseys different to some degree? BP jerseys maybe don't have buttons and the gamers do? Or something like that? You see in the pics that he is playing in a GCL game in a similar if not the same jersey.

Maybe after I get it I can compare it to the GCL photos and see if anything stands out for a photo match because I doubt there are any other pics online.

I don't think it is a 2005 BP jersey since 2006 was his first year. But I think what you are trying to say is if it is a BP Jersey then it probably is mass produced.

I guess I need to find out from the team if there are any differences from the BP and the Game jerseys. I also should probably see how many jerseys they had for this player in particular.

As far as paperwork from the club, for some reason they don't do LOA's anymore. So the only paperwork I can get is a copy of the receipt he got from the team store.

Wish me luck, as I still have to figuire out the wash code and hopefully photomatch this baby. We shall see...

[kingjammy24]

Re: Is this enough for this jersey to be authentic?

hi brian,

when i said it was a BP jersey, i was referring to the style not so much to what it may have actually been used for. during spring training, for example, many teams wear BP jerseys during the spring training games. they are, therefore, BP jerseys technically being used as game jerseys.

find a picture of the phillies taking BP during the regular season. they wear jerseys identical to the one you posted. furthermore, the manufacturer's tag is the sort of painted, "iron on" tag that's used on BP jerseys. regular season game jerseys have sewn on, cloth tags.

it appears that the CGL Phillies use BP jerseys to play their games in.

in terms of mass production, what i'm saying is that all of these jerseys are readily available to the public via retail channels - bp jerseys, game jerseys, etc.

interestingly enough, the tag seems to show a #80 written in marker. the jersey also uses a nameplate. i'd look for a previous number change and nameplate change.

rudy.

[brianborsch]

Re: Is this enough for this jersey to be authentic?

I see,
So what you are saying is that in the past this exact jersey could have been used by someone with the #80 and this season they just changed the name plate and numbers for Adrian Cardenas to use it as his jersey. I think that's what you are trying to say right?

Either way I think there is a pretty good chance that this was game used and like you said, most of the stuff in the GU industry needs a leap of faith. I would say that holds more true for the lower minor league systems or even the minor league system in general since players don't always have their own stuff like they do in the bigs and because the media coverage is not as great.

I tried to write Rob S. regarding the jersey but he said he can't help with minor league jerseys, so obviously its pretty difficult to determine in general and its probably not something well practiced.

Anyways, thanks for all the info. I am trying to collect Cardenas' stuff as I think he will become a great SS or 2nd Baseman for the Phillies.

[brianborsch]

Re: Is this enough for this jersey to be authentic?

I got some more info regarding the GCL and their jerseys. I confirmed that batting practice type jerseys are their actual game jerseys.

I also confirmed that the #80 written in sharpie on the jersey tag is a "wash number". I guess in the GCL a team can have as many players as they want, so they assign each player a "wash number" to put on all their clothing that gets washed.

So this looks pretty legit. I am still going to contact the GCl Phillies and ask them more questions about the jerseys, but things look good thus far.

Thanks everyone fo all your help.

[brianborsch]

Re: Is this enough for this jersey to be authentic?

So, after discussing this jersey with the source who sold it to me, he states that the jersey in the pics that Cardenas is wearing must be the same jersey I bought as in the GCL, the player only has one game jersey.

So how do I get this provenance "officialized"? Should I write a letter to the team asking them if they can confirm this in writing? Maybe I can some more information on the wash number which is on the Majestic outer label.

Any thoughts?

[staindsox]

Re: Is this enough for this jersey to be authentic?

Provenance can never be "official." It isn't a yes or no, it is or it is not type situation. Some is simply better than others. For example, having him write a letter would improve the provenance. Having the player write a letter would improve the provenance even more. The more proof, the better. Hope this helps.

Chris

[kingjammy24]

Re: Is this enough for this jersey to be authentic?

"Provenance can never be "official." It isn't a yes or no, it is or it is not type situation."

chris,

i don't understand this. can you clarify?

thanks,

rudy.

[staindsox]

Re: Is this enough for this jersey to be authentic?

Provenance is tracking the history or source of the item. In the case of this example, since the ballplayer did not directly give Brian the item, he can never say that he is 100% sure that it is real. The better documentation he has, the more likely it is that the jersey is real. Provenance usually means documentation or evidence suggesting what the source is.

For example, let's say Cal Ripken is giving a talk at a charitable function. You attend this event and happen to meet him and obtain his autograph. You can never prove to anyone else that the signature is real if they themselves did not witness him signing the item. However, you can save the program from the dinner to prove you were there. You can save the ticket stub to the event. If you needed to wear a wristband for entrance to the event, you save this as well. If you flew in for the event, saving your plane ticket to the city, which shows the dates you were there and that these dates coincide with the speaking event is more proof. You can take pictures of him speaking at the event. You may have a photo of him signing the item. This is all provenance. You can never prove it to be 100% genuine, but the more documentation you have to back your claim, the more conceivable it is that the signature is authentic...better provenance means having better proof. Hope this helps.

Chris