Who will be in class of 2013 BB HOF?

[vonbrandingo]

I think Morris, Biggio, and Piazza will get the nod. Wish Edgar would get in, he deserves it. We'll find out today.

What do you think?

[NEFAN]

No "roids" in HOF!

[ironmanfan]

It may be no one, although Biggio has the best chance of any IMO

[frikativ54]

I thought Biggio would have gotten in. :(

[mook03005]

Wow no one....Biggio for sure next year..

[jwal23]

It's a crying shame Biggio and Bagwell didn't get in...The stats are un-deniable (especially in bagwell's case when you consider his injuries and how they affected his stats)...but besides the stats there's other view points that make these guys great...their hustle and commitment that doesn't always show on the stat sheets like biggio's heart and hustle, same for bagwell as well, (he was one of the best baserunners in the league and he was a freaking first basemen)these guys were tough, hard nosed players who played the game the way it should be...and another point as well that should be considered is how much these guys have had an impact on this community. These 2 are rock stars around houston still to this day and deservedly so because of their greatness on and off the field...They brought endless excitement to the city and the community...countless days spent doing ACTUAL community work (not just setting up some fund and donating a couple of dollars to it)...I could go on all day about this but to sum it up Big and Bagpipes are the face of the Astros franchise and it's just a down-right sad day for the Houston area and baseball in general...personally I'm disgusted and I know that I'm not the only one that feels this way...shame on you voters...

[GoTigers]

I think Biggio should've gotten in especially.. he may not be baseball royalty or a typ. 1st ballot guy, but I think it would've sent a message to all the roid guys... If you'd done it right, you'd be up there with him. I think it lessens the sting to them since nobody got the nod.

[xpress34]

What a sham and a shame that the cheaters - Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, etc - figure out a way to continue screwing baseball and the good guys - McGriff, Morris, Murphy, Biggio, Walker, etc - by 'splitting the vote' and therefore causing there to be 'no joy in Mudville' this July as there will be no MLB HOF Class of 2013.

My bigger issue is with the jackass writers who don't even use all 10 spots they are given... they will only vote for 2 or 3 because they think the induction groups need to remain small. The initial class was FIVE (5) - Ruth, Wagner, Johnson, Speaker, Cobb.

Some writers even lamented publicly that they 'hope' there is still time and room on the ballot in coming years for McGriff and Morris and such. WTF? If you'd vote for them later, vote for them NOW!

I am really and truly disappointed in the BBWAA today.

[earlywynnfan]

It's a crying shame Biggio and Bagwell didn't get in...The stats are un-deniable (especially in bagwell's case when you consider his injuries and how they affected his stats)...but besides the stats there's other view points that make these guys great...their hustle and commitment that doesn't always show on the stat sheets like biggio's heart and hustle, same for bagwell as well, (he was one of the best baserunners in the league and he was a freaking first basemen)these guys were tough, hard nosed players who played the game the way it should be...and another point as well that should be considered is how much these guys have had an impact on this community. These 2 are rock stars around houston still to this day and deservedly so because of their greatness on and off the field...They brought endless excitement to the city and the community...countless days spent doing ACTUAL community work (not just setting up some fund and donating a couple of dollars to it)...I could go on all day about this but to sum it up Big and Bagpipes are the face of the Astros franchise and it's just a down-right sad day for the Houston area and baseball in general...personally I'm disgusted and I know that I'm not the only one that feels this way...shame on you voters...

I'm not anti-Bagwell or anything, but his stats aren't exactly Ruthian. Your comment "when you consider his injuries and how they affected his stats" sound like an excuse as to why his stats aren't better. Well, BB history is filled with HOF-caliber players whose stats have been adversely affected by injuries (or a war, or racism.)

Am I the only one who is really surprised by the lack of Piazza love here? The best hitting catcher of all time??

Ken

[jwal23]

I'm not anti-Bagwell or anything, but his stats aren't exactly Ruthian. Your comment "when you consider his injuries and how they affected his stats" sound like an excuse as to why his stats aren't better. Well, BB history is filled with HOF-caliber players whose stats have been adversely affected by injuries (or a war, or racism.)

Am I the only one who is really surprised by the lack of Piazza love here? The best hitting catcher of all time??

Ken


I won't argue your point about other players stats being affected by injuries, and yes of course his stats aren't "Ruthian" but this man put up some very gaudy numbers and along with Biggio was the face of the franchise and the city for many years...These writers need to step back and look at the big picture..the HOF is a musuem that shows/tells fans about the greatest players from the respective eras in baseball history and Bagwell was right up there with the rest of them from his era and should've been inducted before this year..sure there may be guys with just as good/some maybe even better statistical numbers, and I hate to go here because personally I hate all these sabermetric numbers (think I spelled that right, if not close), but even when Bill James names a player one of the top 4 or 5 best ever at his position that's gotta speak volumes if your looking at statistics alone...

...and yes im completely on your side about the Piazza debate...hands down should've been voted in this year along with several others...

[vonbrandingo]

I was surprised about Piazza too. Seems like he was punished for his bacne and was lumped in with the other power hitters of the steroid era. We'll probably see him inducted sooner than the others though, since there's less evidence that he roided compared to Bonds, Palmeiro, Sosa, etc. It'll be interesting to see how they treat Thomas next year, being another power hitter from the era.

[vonbrandingo]

Correction: not evidence, but speculation.

[emann]

Best post I've read yet about this...

http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2013-01-09/baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-results-aaron-sele-bonds-clemens-ped

[gingi79]

As a baseball fan I had three opinions I wanted to share for healthy discussion purposes. Many people may not agree and I understand opinions can run very strong on this topic so don't be offended if what I say contradicts your opinion.

1) Anyone older than 12 has noticed the disheartening downturn in talent and ability over the last decade when it comes to opinionated bloggers who get to call themselves "sportwriters." Rather than write articles defending why someone should or should not be in the HOF, all we get is whining about why the "writer" did (or didn't) vote for a player according to the "writer's" standards. Therefore, the entire article is actually about...the "writer". Opining in the context and pretense of relevant athletes doesn't mean you are writing about them when every sentence starts with "I". Those who can do, those who can't, critique......

2) Biggio was a very good ballplayer with an incredible ability to play numerous positions at the major league level. He was a humble, hard working player, a fan favorite who earned that title and the kind of guy everyone wants on their team. He is not however, a HOFer. I say this because his longevity and ability to stay healthy allowed him the one thing people love to use for their reasoning: the 3000 hits. Had his career lasted 2 less seasons, he'd be sitting with Dale Murphy and Tim Raines in the "close but not this year, kid" bin. Dale Murphy was the best player arguably in MLB but assuredly in the N.L. for 5 straight seasons. For another 4, he was HOF caliber. Biggio wasn't the best player on his team for any of his 5 seasons in the game. Tim Raines was the diet version of Rickey Henderson for most of his career. Raines and Murph belong in the Hall. Biggio will be the one that gets in and see opinion "1" for why.

3) Mike Piazza and Jeff Bagwell are the first casualties of the Steroid era. No proof, no failed tests, (hell, the guy who "sold out" MLB worked in the Mets clubhouse and DIDN'T mention Piazza) but the suspicion cloud still hangs over them. Why? Because they hit homers just like the steroid users did. They played at the same time. They both had big upper bodies. They bust be steroid users! Except...no one ever claimed they did. No one saw them, no one accused them, nothing on them in the Mitchell Report. But! Thanks to opinion "1", perhaps, maybe, in a certain light, on the 5th of May at 3:00 when the bells ring, hypothetically they did use.....No vote for you!

[trsent]

I don't get it. Baseball hasn't punished any players of the Steroid Era, but the Baseball Writers are punishing players convicted or suspected of using? Since when are Baseball Writers judge and jury? It's a load of crap.

Put the best players of the era in the Hall of Fame.

What happens when Cal Ripken admits he experiments with Steroids? Does he then get removed from the Hall? Speculation about Mike Piazza, but no proof because he wasn't tested or whatever excuse? Frank Thomas was mentioned above. Boy he grew, but he was never linked to anything, so I guess he's a shoo in?

It just isn't right. The era was part of the game. Love it or hate it, the best deserve to be appreciated.

When MLB bans players for life like Pete Rose (can we forgive an addict already, by the way?) it is one thing, but MLB hasn't punished any of these guys.

Imagine if the Pro Football Hall of Fame punished Steroid users. No one mentions that because no one cares. It was part of society for an era and it is over now but you can't punish people for using a drug that at the time was socially accepted weather anyone admits it or not.

I always say, back in the day you'd watch McGwire and Canseco and comment how they must be on Steroids and no one thought it was illegal at the time.

[both-teams-played-hard]

I don't get it. Baseball hasn't punished any players of the Steroid Era, but the Baseball Writers are punishing players convicted or suspected of using? Since when are Baseball Writers judge and jury? It's a load of crap.


Agreed. It's just a museum. No player should be in the HOF with stats tallied before 1949. Baseball fans should be reminded of that everyday.

[cohibasmoker]

There are criminal and civil cases. Both Bonds and Clemens may have walked in their Criminal cases but in their civil cases, a jury of their peers (baseball writers) saw it differently. I would hope that when Bud Selig and owners come before the same group of baseball writers, they get the same cold shoulder that Bonds and Clemens received.

Just an opinion.

[GoTigers]

Since when are Baseball Writers judge and jury? Since the HOF was founded.. its always been up to the writers, who gets in and who's left out.


Baseball hasn't punished any players of the Steroid Era, but the Baseball Writers are punishing players convicted or suspected of using? Yes, It's left up to the writer's to punish those convicted or suspected because baseball did't have a system in place to check for drug use and punish them themselves. And just because baseball didn't have a system in place does not mean it was okay for the players to defraud the game. I do not have a written contract at work, but I would expect to be punished for illegal drug use even though it is not spelled out.. I especially wouldn't expect to be rewarded for illegal drug use.


back in the day you'd watch McGwire and Canseco and comment how they must be on Steroids and no one thought it was illegal at the time. I've always thought illegal drugs were illegal no matter your profession or contract.

[GoTigers]

What really gets me about this is MLB's inaction. But going forward I think there are 2 rules that would drastically decrease the use of Peds.

1. Anyone who fails a test is not elligble for the HOF period.

2. Once a test is failed, your contract is open to re-negotiaition. It's not fair to the owners who have locked up big bucks on a player after a career year(s) based on fictitious numbers (ie. Melky). Also, there is a known increase in body breakdown and a long term lucrative contract may no longer be in order.

[joelsabi]

As a baseball fan I had three opinions I wanted to share for healthy discussion purposes. Many people may not agree and I understand opinions can run very strong on this topic so don't be offended if what I say contradicts your opinion.

1) Anyone older than 12 has noticed the disheartening downturn in talent and ability over the last decade when it comes to opinionated bloggers who get to call themselves "sportwriters." Rather than write articles defending why someone should or should not be in the HOF, all we get is whining about why the "writer" did (or didn't) vote for a player according to the "writer's" standards. Therefore, the entire article is actually about...the "writer". Opining in the context and pretense of relevant athletes doesn't mean you are writing about them when every sentence starts with "I". Those who can do, those who can't, critique......

blogs are supposed to be opionion pieces and many are self centered because all the investigation they ever do is from second hand sources unlike beat writers who are covering the sport in the lockerrooms. i agree bloggers are an interesting read sometimes but are sensationalized most of the time.



2) Biggio was a very good ballplayer with an incredible ability to play numerous positions at the major league level. He was a humble, hard working player, a fan favorite who earned that title and the kind of guy everyone wants on their team. He is not however, a HOFer. I say this because his longevity and ability to stay healthy allowed him the one thing people love to use for their reasoning: the 3000 hits. Had his career lasted 2 less seasons, he'd be sitting with Dale Murphy and Tim Raines in the "close but not this year, kid" bin. Dale Murphy was the best player arguably in MLB but assuredly in the N.L. for 5 straight seasons. For another 4, he was HOF caliber. Biggio wasn't the best player on his team for any of his 5 seasons in the game. Tim Raines was the diet version of Rickey Henderson for most of his career. Raines and Murph belong in the Hall. Biggio will be the one that gets in and see opinion "1" for why.

i think 3000 is a great barometer of a great hitter. Biggio would probably have even less hits if he didnt aggressively crowd the plate which got him hit by a pitch over 300 times.

3) Mike Piazza and Jeff Bagwell are the first casualties of the Steroid era. No proof, no failed tests, (hell, the guy who "sold out" MLB worked in the Mets clubhouse and DIDN'T mention Piazza) but the suspicion cloud still hangs over them. Why? Because they hit homers just like the steroid users did. They played at the same time. They both had big upper bodies. They bust be steroid users! Except...no one ever claimed they did. No one saw them, no one accused them, nothing on them in the Mitchell Report. But! Thanks to opinion "1", perhaps, maybe, in a certain light, on the 5th of May at 3:00 when the bells ring, hypothetically they did use.....No vote for you!

An interesting case is Frank Thomas next year. I am expecting him to be a first time HOF as he was always a big upper bodied guy and never have I heard steroid talk about this man. Canseco never said anything bad against Clemens either.

[joelsabi]

As a baseball fan I had three opinions I wanted to share for healthy discussion purposes. Many people may not agree and I understand opinions can run very strong on this topic so don't be offended if what I say contradicts your opinion.

1) Anyone older than 12 has noticed the disheartening downturn in talent and ability over the last decade when it comes to opinionated bloggers who get to call themselves "sportwriters." Rather than write articles defending why someone should or should not be in the HOF, all we get is whining about why the "writer" did (or didn't) vote for a player according to the "writer's" standards. Therefore, the entire article is actually about...the "writer". Opining in the context and pretense of relevant athletes doesn't mean you are writing about them when every sentence starts with "I". Those who can do, those who can't, critique......

2) Biggio was a very good ballplayer with an incredible ability to play numerous positions at the major league level. He was a humble, hard working player, a fan favorite who earned that title and the kind of guy everyone wants on their team. He is not however, a HOFer. I say this because his longevity and ability to stay healthy allowed him the one thing people love to use for their reasoning: the 3000 hits. Had his career lasted 2 less seasons, he'd be sitting with Dale Murphy and Tim Raines in the "close but not this year, kid" bin. Dale Murphy was the best player arguably in MLB but assuredly in the N.L. for 5 straight seasons. For another 4, he was HOF caliber. Biggio wasn't the best player on his team for any of his 5 seasons in the game. Tim Raines was the diet version of Rickey Henderson for most of his career. Raines and Murph belong in the Hall. Biggio will be the one that gets in and see opinion "1" for why.

3) Mike Piazza and Jeff Bagwell are the first casualties of the Steroid era. No proof, no failed tests, (hell, the guy who "sold out" MLB worked in the Mets clubhouse and DIDN'T mention Piazza) but the suspicion cloud still hangs over them. Why? Because they hit homers just like the steroid users did. They played at the same time. They both had big upper bodies. They bust be steroid users! Except...no one ever claimed they did. No one saw them, no one accused them, nothing on them in the Mitchell Report. But! Thanks to opinion "1", perhaps, maybe, in a certain light, on the 5th of May at 3:00 when the bells ring, hypothetically they did use.....No vote for you!



1) thank goodness bloggers dont have a vote. their pieces are merely opinion pieces based on secondary sources. in hopes of gaining an audience they resort to sensationalism. there's a difference between being a reporter and an analyst/commmentraries.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xS9QJ8SKtZw
"stop worrying about the twitter world and kick rocks"



2) 3000 is a great barometer of a great hitter. If Biggio didnt have that aggressive game he would not have gotten to 3000 hits and he has 300 hit by pitch to prove it. He was a great leadoff hitter. What a great athlete to be able to go from catcher AS to infield AS in one year.

[cjclong]

Like many people I had pretty well accepted that Clemens used steroids. However a point raised by his attorney has raised doubts for me about that. The man who says Clemons used steroids said he gave them to him for a couple of years. However there is NO evidence of his use after that. The prosecution sent investigators all over the country trying to find any evidence of steroid use by Clemens apart from what was said by his accuser and was unable to find any evidence whatsoever. If Clemens was using steroids to keep his career going why didn't he contiune to use them as he got even older? The only evidence of steroid use by Clemens comes from one person who has little credibility as a human being. I think that does raise a legitimate question as to whether he used steroids.
One person posted that Clemons was acquitted in a criminal trial but had been convicted in a civil trial. I wouldn't call a vote by sports writers a trial. Far too many sports writers write stories just to create controversy.
Finally one writer from New York said Jack Morris was the last one on the ballot from the pre steroid era and after he went off he wouldn't vote for any one from that era. That would be totally unfair to players like say, Marinao Rivera who have never had any accusation of steroids for only one example. If there is a proceedure to remove a voter that man should be removed. And I hope the person who made the reference to Ripken was saying what would happen to his place in the HOF IF it ever came out that Ripken had used steroids rather than accusing of using them.

[trsent]

It's all one big stupid witch hunt and it's an embarrassment to the Hall of Fame that they are keeping players out who were just part of a social movement to use Steroids.

Someone above commented about not approving of any drug use, etc.

If this is the case, any drug users should be removed from the Hall of Fame? Wasn't Fergie Jenkins caught with weed? That's an illegal drug at the time (becoming approved now) so shouldn't he be punished? Don't give me double standards that some illegal drugs are ok and others are not.

Time to forgive and forget.

[Mark17]

It's all one big stupid witch hunt and it's an embarrassment to the Hall of Fame that they are keeping players out who were just part of a social movement to use Steroids.

Someone above commented about not approving of any drug use, etc.

If this is the case, any drug users should be removed from the Hall of Fame? Wasn't Fergie Jenkins caught with weed? That's an illegal drug at the time (becoming approved now) so shouldn't he be punished? Don't give me double standards that some illegal drugs are ok and others are not.

Time to forgive and forget.

Actually, during Prohibition, Babe Ruth, Jimmie Foxx, Paul Waner, and a bunch of other HOF players were regularly using another illegal drug - alcohol. Performance-enhancing, maybe not. Although who is to say, if it calmed the nerves, helped them sleep on the trains better, helped keep them relaxed...

I never hear about the fact alcohol was an illegal substance that was routinely used in the 1930s, by dozens of Hall of Famers.

[gingi79]

1) thank goodness bloggers dont have a vote. their pieces are merely opinion pieces based on secondary sources. in hopes of gaining an audience they resort to sensationalism

Joel I admit you are a much better judge of these things. I read SI, ESPN, Yahoo and AOL and I cannot for the life of me tell the difference between articles on their sites and articles from any multitude of self published drivel from "experts".

TJ Ford on ESPN wrote an entire article on why he submitted zero names on his ballot. 80% was his morals and opinions 10% was baseball facts/player names/the word "steroids" 10% fluff and conjecture. Do you care what TJ Ford thinks? Neither does anyone who doesn't know him. Why is he writing and commenting on Baseball when 8/10 words are about him?

[cohibasmoker]

There are a few things that keep nagging me about the steroid era -

1) The Baseball Players Union role;
2) The lack of positive tests;
3) Baseball's attitude to look the other way.
4) If steroids were used by a lot of players, what about the guys that didn't take them?

In a way, I applause the writers for not voting those guys into the Hall of Fame. Perhaps being in the locker-room and around the players all they time gave them incite into what was actually happening in MLB. Why they didn't report it at the time, who knows.

In closing, writers get voted into the Hall of Fame as do Commissioners and team owners. I hope the writers apply the same criteria when one of their own is nominated to the Hall of Fame.

Just some opinions,

Jim

[GoTigers]

Joel, I can't disagree more..

We've seen average players hit 50hr in a season and become MVP caliber players on Peds. Have you ever seen that happen with weed, beer, red bull, cigarettes? Look at the Giants, they're paying MVP money for a platoon outfielder,, they should simply be OK with that?

Lets apply your logic to our hobby..

In the 80's and 90's MLB was aware that autographs were becoming a major industry, but they did nothing to correct the problem of forgeries. It took them 20yrs to develope an authentication program. Who are all these 3rd party "authenticators" that now sit in judgement of autographs from that era? Who made these "Authenticators" judge and jury?? Since MLB didnt have an authentication program in the 80's and 90's all auto's from that era should be deemed authentic by MLB. Who are we to tell peoople they are fakes? We werent there when they were signed. The "forgers" were just part of a social movement to bring affordable memorabilia to the masses. MLB is the bad guy, not the "forgers", they were providing a service and making collectors dreams come true. It's time to forgive and forget with these "fake" autos. Open up your wallets and your collections to those Babe Ruth balls from the flea market.

[trsent]

Joel, I can't disagree more..

We've seen average players hit 50hr in a season and become MVP caliber players on Peds. Have you ever seen that happen with weed, beer, red bull, cigarettes? Look at the Giants, they're paying MVP money for a platoon outfielder,, they should simply be OK with that?

Lets apply your logic to our hobby..

In the 80's and 90's MLB was aware that autographs were becoming a major industry, but they did nothing to correct the problem of forgeries. It took them 20yrs to develope an authentication program. Who are all these 3rd party "authenticators" that now sit in judgement of autographs from that era? Who made these "Authenticators" judge and jury?? Since MLB didnt have an authentication program in the 80's and 90's all auto's from that era should be deemed authentic by MLB. Who are we to tell peoople they are fakes? We werent there when they were signed. The "forgers" were just part of a social movement to bring affordable memorabilia to the masses. MLB is the bad guy, not the "forgers", they were providing a service and making collectors dreams come true. It's time to forgive and forget with these "fake" autos. Open up your wallets and your collections to those Babe Ruth balls from the flea market.

Please don't compare fake autographs and drug abusers. They aren't a fair comparison.

My points are simple. No one knows who used and who didn't. There are people who used these questioned drugs and we will never know about it. There are players who were in a sealed file that's names were leaked. It's an embarrassing witch hunt that if you support that is fine, but I can't support a system that guesses who used and who didn't.

It was part of the game. The owners knew it was going on. The press knew it was going on. Find me an article from 1993 complaining about Steroid use in baseball. They don't exist because no one thought years later it would become such an issue.

Now, next point - When is football going to punish players for using PED's like the worthless Baseball Writes of America (or whatever they are called) have punished baseball players?

What a double standard. Football players who used and abused are not kept out of their hall but baseball is so precious guys who are convicted and guys who are suspected are barred? Anyone who supports this should look in the mirror and remember life isn't perfect but understanding errors and making proper changes is a positive way to think.

[GoTigers]

My comparison was not between drug abusers and fake autos. I would never compare an addict with a terrible addiction to something so trivial. But, my comparison between forgers and steroids is accurate and shows the flaws in your argument. Bonds etc. are not addicts they are scammers just like forgers.

As for you saying I support a ridiculous which hunt.. That is not the case. If you read my previous posts I agree this has been handled terribly. I just don't believe opening the doors to Cooperstown and rewarding and supporting drug use in sports is the answer. If you do, fine.

I'm all about forgiveness and allowing people to overcome mistakes. Lord knows I've made mistakes. I also believe in consequence, and I reserve forgiveness for those who ask for it and attempt to change thier ways. Has Bonds asked forgiveness? Has he admitted mistakes? Or have he and others fought this every step of the way.

Let me say Joel, we obviously disagree and that's fine. I do have respect for your rep in the hobby and don't mean anything negative in a personal manner. I just want to throw that out there since sometimes postings can be taken the wrong way.

[trsent]

My comparison was not between drug abusers and fake autos. I would never compare an addict with a terrible addiction to something so trivial. But, my comparison between forgers and steroids is accurate and shows the flaws in your argument. Bonds etc. are not addicts they are scammers just like forgers.

As for you saying I support a ridiculous which hunt.. That is not the case. If you read my previous posts I agree this has been handled terribly. I just don't believe opening the doors to Cooperstown and rewarding and supporting drug use in sports is the answer. If you do, fine.

I'm all about forgiveness and allowing people to overcome mistakes. Lord knows I've made mistakes. I also believe in consequence, and I reserve forgiveness for those who ask for it and attempt to change thier ways. Has Bonds asked forgiveness? Has he admitted mistakes? Or have he and others fought this every step of the way.

Let me say Joel, we obviously disagree and that's fine. I do have respect for your rep in the hobby and don't mean anything negative in a personal manner. I just want to throw that out there since sometimes postings can be taken the wrong way.

I appreciate the kind words - No one can worry about me taking sides personally, I enjoy a good debate.

Funny thing is on one can win this debate. The whole history is a joke and no one can ever make everyone happy.