MSpecht
11-01-2006, 11:23 AM
A post on the MEARS Bulletin Board yesterday is an item of particular interest to game used bat collectors. As an aside to the continuing dialogue concerning the authentication process utilized for the authentication of a 1917-1921 Tris Speaker bat, the following post was made by MEARS authenticator Troy Kinunen (emphasis mine):
"For the actual worksheet prepared for the bat, for the worksheet section where it was asked, Matches Factory Records, Dave Bushing marked the word PRE.
The word "PRE" was in reference to the fact (that there) are no factory records, only ledger entries. MEARS defines factory records as the complete set of records instituted in 1930 and forward also known as the personal player bat records.
Ledger entries are not known in the industry as "factory records."
Basically, what is being said here is that a wealth of information that has been uncovered since complete access to the H &B records was initially granted to Vince Malta, Bill Riddell, and myself in the mid-1990s, and subsequently granted to Dave Bushing and, I believe, Dan Knoll, are not considered by MEARS to be "factory records," and the information contained therein has little or no impact or influence in the MEARS authentication process. The rationale offered is that these "records," (which, for the purpose of this discussion, are those which cover the period from 1920 through 1929) are 'incomplete' both in volume and content, and that they are "not known in the industry as factory records."
Here are a couple of questions: Who, in "the industry," has the ability to define the term? Is it the small handful of people who actually have copies of some portions of the post- 1930 Player Bat Cards ? Is it the four, or possibly five, people who have, in various amounts, copies and transcripts of the 1920-1929 records ? Or could it possibly be the collectors themselves, the people who are spending significant amounts of money on what they believe to be game used professional model bats ?
The answer, according to Troy Kinunen, is that MEARS will define the term and authenticate accordingly....
MEARS defines factory records as the complete set of records instituted in 1930 and forward also known as the personal player bat records.
Ledger entries are not known in the industry as "factory records."
--- Troy Kinunen
My preference is to put it all on the table and allow the collecting community, rather than "the industry" (whatever that is), make that determination.
So...what are these pre-1930 records, and do they actually contain any information that is pertinent to bat authentication or that a prospective buyer should be aware of in order to assist in his evaluation of a specific bat ? Are they incomplete, random jottings that have little significance to a specific bat, or are they informative records that contain sufficient information to be of value in the evaluation and authentication process ?
In order to make an informed opinion about the value, or lack thereof, of these 1920-1929 records, a person must have two critical pieces of information: First, what information is contained in these records, and Second, how complete are these records ?
Here goes --- YOU BE THE JUDGE !
1. What are these pre-1930 records, and do they actually contain any information that is pertinent to bat authentication or that a prospective buyer should be aware of in order to assist in his evaluation of a specific bat ?
I will let Vince Malta answer the first question. The following is an excerpt from his soon-to-be-released book,A Complete Reference Guide to Louisville Slugger Professional Player Bats, which describes both the 1920-1929 H & B records and the 1930-1980 H & B records. I am including his descriptions of both for comparison, as many collectors do not actually know what is contained in the later factory records, and certainly are not familiar with the earlier records.
Pre-1930 Records
The first set of written records consists of yearly logbooks, one book per year, ranging from 1920 to 1929, except for 1924, which is missing. There are only a few written records known to exist prior to 1920, notably a tattered log book referencing shipments made from 1911 to 1914. Wherever possible, information obtained from the 1911 to 1914 logbook was incorporated for each referenced player. Unfortunately, some pages are missing or are tattered, obscuring many shipping dates, names and weights, so by no means is it a complete reference for the period.
Each yearly logbook consists of alphabetized sections A through Z. In each alphabetized section, single line entries can be found in chronological order, alphabetized by the player’s last name for bat order shipped to players on a specified date. The information logged is the shipment date, player’s last name first, name of player’s ballclub, sometimes the league of the ballclub, a referenced model of bat(s), and usually the weight(s) of the bat(s) shipped. For instance, if Ty Cobb was shipped bats made from his own bat model, then a sample entry would appear as follows: “3-7-21 Cobb Detroit BBC (his model) 39/40 oz”. However, if Cobb ordered a model bat of another player, then the entry would reflect the player’s name corresponding to the model. For example, “3-31-21 Cobb Detroit BBC (Buddy Ryan) 39/40 oz”, reflecting a Buddy Ryan model bat, branded with Cobb’s name and shipped for Cobb’s use.
When a reference appears as: “ 4-14-26 Ross Youngs - Ken Williams, Use Large Sisler/ 42 oz.” This refers to a bat made for Ross Youngs from a Ken Williams bat; however, the Ken Williams bat was actually made from a Large (George) Sisler Model bat. Therefore the bat maker would use a Large (George) Sisler Model as the pattern for making the Ross Young bats that were shipped in 1926.
There is rarely a reference to bat length, as a Ty Cobb model bat is uniformly 34.5 inches. If the order reflects any deviation to the requested model, then it is noted. For instance, “1-27-21 Cashion K. Greenville S.C. Ty Cobb 36” (inches)”. This represents that K. Cashion was shipped a Ty Cobb model bat (with Cashion’s name stamped on the bat, and made to the same specifications as Ty Cobb’s model, except for length. Since Ty Cobb’s model bat is 34.5 inches in length, an additional entry of 36” is made reflecting the deviation from the model. Any deviation from the referenced model bat is noted.
These incredible yearly logs are fully intact, but very fragile. The paper has become brittle with age, not allowing for easy copying; however, they contain a treasure trove of information on bats made for players that was once believed to have been lost in a fire. No longer, does a collector need to guess at the proper range of weights of a player bat from this era, when it now can be substantiated by the actual shipping logs.
Post-1929 Record Cards
In 1930, H&B shipments on individual player cards, rather than in yearly logs. This provided easy reference for the bat-maker of every model shipped to an individual player. It was also probably necessary as players began ordering a greater variety of bats, not only mixing up the models of bats ordered, but also increasingly varying the length and weight of their bat orders. Additionally, each entry notes the number of bats shipped to the player and the type of wood. For instance, an entry of A12 indicates a shipment of 12 ash bats, whereas H6 would indicate a shipment of 6 hickory bats.
The player cards are an excellent source to understand the transition from bats identified by a reference date and player name, to modern player model numbers. Sometime in 1943, H&B began assigning model numbers to each reference dated player bat. By 1947, there are no more references to “his model” in the record cards and a model number identifies each entry only. This is significant because it has long been previously believed that model numbers began to appear on all bats from 1944 onward.
Since entries on the shipping records appear to be transitioning, so too are the bats. Perhaps not all post-1943 bats leaving the factory were stamped with a model number, as there is no indication in the records that bats leaving the factory were actually stamped or marked with a model number. This may help explain the existence of model-less bats appearing in the collections of post-1943 career players and batboys.
There are also separate team record cards identifying model bats shipped to the team for use by their players. Identifying the existence of team cards has been one huge find in explaining “holes” in the records. For instance, a 1961 to 1964 Mickey Mantle K55 model bat cannot be found in Mickey Mantle’s individual player record card. However, Mantle K55 model bats were sent to the Yankees during this time period, allowing for the possibility that Mantle used a bat obtained from the team’s stock. These model bats are referenced individually in the player charts under “pro-stock” and compiled in the Hall of Fame pro-stock list.
By comparing the data contained in the two record-keeping systems, it becomes clear that the main difference between the "yearly logbook"records from 1920 to 1929, and the "individual player bat card" records from 1930 to 1980 is primarily the format, or 'record keeping system,' rather than content. To term the information contained in the yearly logbooks as anything less than "factory records" is a mischaracterization of the facts.
2. Are the 1920-1929 yearly logbook / journal / ledger records incomplete, random jottings that have little significance to a specific bat, or are they informative records that contain sufficient information to be of value in the evaluation and authentication process ?
After a review of all available records of every Hall of Fame member that have been accessed with the permission and assistance of the Hillerich & Bradsby Company, the answer is no, the records from 1920-1929 are not complete -- however it is not that easy to make a general statement to that effect. For some players whose careers span both the 1920s and the 1930s, the records appear to be very complete with respect to the orders found in each of the two "record-keeping" periods. To illustrate, consider Hall of Famer Frankie Frisch.
Frisch's Hall of Fame career spanned from 1919 to 1937. During the 1920 -1929 record period, there are 34 separate orders of bats recorded as having been shipped to Frisch. In the subsequent record period, from 1930-1937, there are 40 annotated orders found. The difference between content within the two periods is very little. Models and weights of bats are found on virtually all orders during both periods, and bat lengths can be found or ascertained on 17 of the 34 orders between 1920-1929 and on 25 of the 40 orders between 1930-1937. Pretty much the same information is available in both record periods. The main difference is that the number of bats shipped, and confirmation of the wood used, is included routinely on the post-1930 bat cards, and only rarely (wood) in the yearly logbooks.
Similar results are found throughout the records. For Hall of Famer Earle Combs (1924 to 1935) during the period 1924 to 1929, there are 26 orders documented; from 1930 to 1935 there are 15 orders recorded. Heine Manush ? 40 orders documented between 1920 and 1929, and 33 orders documented between 1930 and 1939. How about The Babe ? 48 documented orders between 1920 and 1929, and 47 orders between 1930 and 1935. Bat lengths, which, in error, have been said to be virtually non-existent in pre-1930 records, can be found in Ruth's orders in every year from 1920 to 1935 (except for 1924, where, as noted, the logbook has not been found.)
Don't get me wrong. The specific information available on any individual player varies. Look at the Player Bat Charts in the Game Used Library section of this website. Check out the players whose careers span the 1920s and 1930s, like Jim Bottomley and KiKi Cuyler. Note the information that is contained in the charts for the 1920s, with particular note of bat models, lengths, and weights. All of that information came from the yearly logbooks, or "ledger entries." Is the information described above as contained in the 1920-1929 H & B records useful, valuable, and perhaps even critical to allow a collector to make an independent evaluation of a bat he is considering for his collection? And, further, is it the responsibility of an authenticator who possesses this information to divulge it to the collector, or at least consider it during the authentication process?
"MEARS defines factory records as the complete set of records instituted in 1930 and forward also known as the personal player bat records.
Ledger entries are not known in the industry as "factory records."
--- Troy Kinunen
YOU BE THE JUDGE !
"For the actual worksheet prepared for the bat, for the worksheet section where it was asked, Matches Factory Records, Dave Bushing marked the word PRE.
The word "PRE" was in reference to the fact (that there) are no factory records, only ledger entries. MEARS defines factory records as the complete set of records instituted in 1930 and forward also known as the personal player bat records.
Ledger entries are not known in the industry as "factory records."
Basically, what is being said here is that a wealth of information that has been uncovered since complete access to the H &B records was initially granted to Vince Malta, Bill Riddell, and myself in the mid-1990s, and subsequently granted to Dave Bushing and, I believe, Dan Knoll, are not considered by MEARS to be "factory records," and the information contained therein has little or no impact or influence in the MEARS authentication process. The rationale offered is that these "records," (which, for the purpose of this discussion, are those which cover the period from 1920 through 1929) are 'incomplete' both in volume and content, and that they are "not known in the industry as factory records."
Here are a couple of questions: Who, in "the industry," has the ability to define the term? Is it the small handful of people who actually have copies of some portions of the post- 1930 Player Bat Cards ? Is it the four, or possibly five, people who have, in various amounts, copies and transcripts of the 1920-1929 records ? Or could it possibly be the collectors themselves, the people who are spending significant amounts of money on what they believe to be game used professional model bats ?
The answer, according to Troy Kinunen, is that MEARS will define the term and authenticate accordingly....
MEARS defines factory records as the complete set of records instituted in 1930 and forward also known as the personal player bat records.
Ledger entries are not known in the industry as "factory records."
--- Troy Kinunen
My preference is to put it all on the table and allow the collecting community, rather than "the industry" (whatever that is), make that determination.
So...what are these pre-1930 records, and do they actually contain any information that is pertinent to bat authentication or that a prospective buyer should be aware of in order to assist in his evaluation of a specific bat ? Are they incomplete, random jottings that have little significance to a specific bat, or are they informative records that contain sufficient information to be of value in the evaluation and authentication process ?
In order to make an informed opinion about the value, or lack thereof, of these 1920-1929 records, a person must have two critical pieces of information: First, what information is contained in these records, and Second, how complete are these records ?
Here goes --- YOU BE THE JUDGE !
1. What are these pre-1930 records, and do they actually contain any information that is pertinent to bat authentication or that a prospective buyer should be aware of in order to assist in his evaluation of a specific bat ?
I will let Vince Malta answer the first question. The following is an excerpt from his soon-to-be-released book,A Complete Reference Guide to Louisville Slugger Professional Player Bats, which describes both the 1920-1929 H & B records and the 1930-1980 H & B records. I am including his descriptions of both for comparison, as many collectors do not actually know what is contained in the later factory records, and certainly are not familiar with the earlier records.
Pre-1930 Records
The first set of written records consists of yearly logbooks, one book per year, ranging from 1920 to 1929, except for 1924, which is missing. There are only a few written records known to exist prior to 1920, notably a tattered log book referencing shipments made from 1911 to 1914. Wherever possible, information obtained from the 1911 to 1914 logbook was incorporated for each referenced player. Unfortunately, some pages are missing or are tattered, obscuring many shipping dates, names and weights, so by no means is it a complete reference for the period.
Each yearly logbook consists of alphabetized sections A through Z. In each alphabetized section, single line entries can be found in chronological order, alphabetized by the player’s last name for bat order shipped to players on a specified date. The information logged is the shipment date, player’s last name first, name of player’s ballclub, sometimes the league of the ballclub, a referenced model of bat(s), and usually the weight(s) of the bat(s) shipped. For instance, if Ty Cobb was shipped bats made from his own bat model, then a sample entry would appear as follows: “3-7-21 Cobb Detroit BBC (his model) 39/40 oz”. However, if Cobb ordered a model bat of another player, then the entry would reflect the player’s name corresponding to the model. For example, “3-31-21 Cobb Detroit BBC (Buddy Ryan) 39/40 oz”, reflecting a Buddy Ryan model bat, branded with Cobb’s name and shipped for Cobb’s use.
When a reference appears as: “ 4-14-26 Ross Youngs - Ken Williams, Use Large Sisler/ 42 oz.” This refers to a bat made for Ross Youngs from a Ken Williams bat; however, the Ken Williams bat was actually made from a Large (George) Sisler Model bat. Therefore the bat maker would use a Large (George) Sisler Model as the pattern for making the Ross Young bats that were shipped in 1926.
There is rarely a reference to bat length, as a Ty Cobb model bat is uniformly 34.5 inches. If the order reflects any deviation to the requested model, then it is noted. For instance, “1-27-21 Cashion K. Greenville S.C. Ty Cobb 36” (inches)”. This represents that K. Cashion was shipped a Ty Cobb model bat (with Cashion’s name stamped on the bat, and made to the same specifications as Ty Cobb’s model, except for length. Since Ty Cobb’s model bat is 34.5 inches in length, an additional entry of 36” is made reflecting the deviation from the model. Any deviation from the referenced model bat is noted.
These incredible yearly logs are fully intact, but very fragile. The paper has become brittle with age, not allowing for easy copying; however, they contain a treasure trove of information on bats made for players that was once believed to have been lost in a fire. No longer, does a collector need to guess at the proper range of weights of a player bat from this era, when it now can be substantiated by the actual shipping logs.
Post-1929 Record Cards
In 1930, H&B shipments on individual player cards, rather than in yearly logs. This provided easy reference for the bat-maker of every model shipped to an individual player. It was also probably necessary as players began ordering a greater variety of bats, not only mixing up the models of bats ordered, but also increasingly varying the length and weight of their bat orders. Additionally, each entry notes the number of bats shipped to the player and the type of wood. For instance, an entry of A12 indicates a shipment of 12 ash bats, whereas H6 would indicate a shipment of 6 hickory bats.
The player cards are an excellent source to understand the transition from bats identified by a reference date and player name, to modern player model numbers. Sometime in 1943, H&B began assigning model numbers to each reference dated player bat. By 1947, there are no more references to “his model” in the record cards and a model number identifies each entry only. This is significant because it has long been previously believed that model numbers began to appear on all bats from 1944 onward.
Since entries on the shipping records appear to be transitioning, so too are the bats. Perhaps not all post-1943 bats leaving the factory were stamped with a model number, as there is no indication in the records that bats leaving the factory were actually stamped or marked with a model number. This may help explain the existence of model-less bats appearing in the collections of post-1943 career players and batboys.
There are also separate team record cards identifying model bats shipped to the team for use by their players. Identifying the existence of team cards has been one huge find in explaining “holes” in the records. For instance, a 1961 to 1964 Mickey Mantle K55 model bat cannot be found in Mickey Mantle’s individual player record card. However, Mantle K55 model bats were sent to the Yankees during this time period, allowing for the possibility that Mantle used a bat obtained from the team’s stock. These model bats are referenced individually in the player charts under “pro-stock” and compiled in the Hall of Fame pro-stock list.
By comparing the data contained in the two record-keeping systems, it becomes clear that the main difference between the "yearly logbook"records from 1920 to 1929, and the "individual player bat card" records from 1930 to 1980 is primarily the format, or 'record keeping system,' rather than content. To term the information contained in the yearly logbooks as anything less than "factory records" is a mischaracterization of the facts.
2. Are the 1920-1929 yearly logbook / journal / ledger records incomplete, random jottings that have little significance to a specific bat, or are they informative records that contain sufficient information to be of value in the evaluation and authentication process ?
After a review of all available records of every Hall of Fame member that have been accessed with the permission and assistance of the Hillerich & Bradsby Company, the answer is no, the records from 1920-1929 are not complete -- however it is not that easy to make a general statement to that effect. For some players whose careers span both the 1920s and the 1930s, the records appear to be very complete with respect to the orders found in each of the two "record-keeping" periods. To illustrate, consider Hall of Famer Frankie Frisch.
Frisch's Hall of Fame career spanned from 1919 to 1937. During the 1920 -1929 record period, there are 34 separate orders of bats recorded as having been shipped to Frisch. In the subsequent record period, from 1930-1937, there are 40 annotated orders found. The difference between content within the two periods is very little. Models and weights of bats are found on virtually all orders during both periods, and bat lengths can be found or ascertained on 17 of the 34 orders between 1920-1929 and on 25 of the 40 orders between 1930-1937. Pretty much the same information is available in both record periods. The main difference is that the number of bats shipped, and confirmation of the wood used, is included routinely on the post-1930 bat cards, and only rarely (wood) in the yearly logbooks.
Similar results are found throughout the records. For Hall of Famer Earle Combs (1924 to 1935) during the period 1924 to 1929, there are 26 orders documented; from 1930 to 1935 there are 15 orders recorded. Heine Manush ? 40 orders documented between 1920 and 1929, and 33 orders documented between 1930 and 1939. How about The Babe ? 48 documented orders between 1920 and 1929, and 47 orders between 1930 and 1935. Bat lengths, which, in error, have been said to be virtually non-existent in pre-1930 records, can be found in Ruth's orders in every year from 1920 to 1935 (except for 1924, where, as noted, the logbook has not been found.)
Don't get me wrong. The specific information available on any individual player varies. Look at the Player Bat Charts in the Game Used Library section of this website. Check out the players whose careers span the 1920s and 1930s, like Jim Bottomley and KiKi Cuyler. Note the information that is contained in the charts for the 1920s, with particular note of bat models, lengths, and weights. All of that information came from the yearly logbooks, or "ledger entries." Is the information described above as contained in the 1920-1929 H & B records useful, valuable, and perhaps even critical to allow a collector to make an independent evaluation of a bat he is considering for his collection? And, further, is it the responsibility of an authenticator who possesses this information to divulge it to the collector, or at least consider it during the authentication process?
"MEARS defines factory records as the complete set of records instituted in 1930 and forward also known as the personal player bat records.
Ledger entries are not known in the industry as "factory records."
--- Troy Kinunen
YOU BE THE JUDGE !