VERY SCARY that these are out there...

[xpress34]

Check out this guys REPLICA Vintage Baseball's w/ REPLICA signatures:

celeb-billz (http://www.ebay.com/sch/AutographsReprints-/50115/i.html?item=140898923165&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20ce3af29d&_ssn=celeb-billz)

Some of these are incredibly good... and he may list them all as what they truly are, but whose to say the next will?

This is a bad idea in my opinion.

I wonder if he has licensing rights from Spalding, Wilson, etc. and the estate holders of some of these players to do this?

[ousooner_85]

Wow....ya that it is pretty scary, especially for those that aren't well versed in all the indicators of real vs. fake. I feel fortunate to have stumbled across this site, which brings to light so many of the potential pitfalls in the collecting world.

While it may be hard to tell with out the ball in hand, what are some things to look for in the actual ball that will bring it's authencity into question? The makeup/print of the labeling, laces, texture? I'm interested hearing what people know!

[trsent]

Are you sure these aren't real baseballs with signatures copied onto them? They also could be fake signed balls that they are just trying to get rid of.

Either way, I don't like it one bit myself.

[dplettn]

Pretty disturbing. The sellers' business design does (or will) cater to fraud post-sale. Sadly I fear from an casual glance what the seller doing presents as legal during his marketing and point of sale. That it serves as wholesale to a fraud market may or may not allow for an actionable situation.

Awkwardly, the paid authentication industry may benefit from our awareness of such a market. This is a reminder that fraud too is a business that enriches both wholesalers and resellers. This should remind us all to be humble less over-reliance on our eyes lets us be victimized.

[xpress34]

Are you sure these aren't real baseballs with signatures copied onto them? They also could be fake signed balls that they are just trying to get rid of.

Either way, I don't like it one bit myself.

Joel -

We may not agree on a lot of things, but yes, the balls are fake (reproductions) as well and the seller states as much.

If these were REAL balls - even with fake sigs, I would be scooping up all of the Red/Blue Stitch Reach balls and Black/Read Stitch Spalding balls - as the balls alone - if real are worth HUNDREDS each - even if they had fake autos.

Vintage Red/Blue (AL) and Red/Black (NL) stitch balls are 1933 and before and are VERY desirable.

All the best -

Smitty

[marino13]

There must be some kind of LASER stamp on the baseball stating that these signatures and baseballs ARE replica!


I am OKAY with that.


But, if there is any "replica" stamp, then it is some scary thought as we speak! :eek:

[trsent]

Joel -

We may not agree on a lot of things, but yes, the balls are fake (reproductions) as well and the seller states as much.

If these were REAL balls - even with fake sigs, I would be scooping up all of the Red/Blue Stitch Reach balls and Black/Read Stitch Spalding balls - as the balls alone - if real are worth HUNDREDS each - even if they had fake autos.

Vintage Red/Blue (AL) and Red/Black (NL) stitch balls are 1933 and before and are VERY desirable.

All the best -

Smitty

Odd, how do you make fake baseballs?

[xpress34]

Odd, how do you make fake baseballs?
I will answer that question.

First, if you have the know-how - and the proper equipment, it wouldn't be that hard.

When I worked for Rawlings, one of the skills we had to master was stitching baseballs. There is a clamp that is made to hold the ball while you sit and stitch - it would be pretty easy to make your own actually. The hardest part would be finding 88 inches of Waxed Thread - or 44 inches when making a two tone stitch ball. Then, if you know how to make a baseball stitch, you are in business.

You could take modern balls, cut out the red lacing,bleach them out (to remove stamps), soak the ball to make the leather Pliable, and restitch them. The stamping is all done after balls are made anyway, so if you have a few pristine examples to have stamps made, there you have it.

Why would you do it? A modern ball costs about $14 -$25 dependig on where you but it. If you buy in bulk case lots, you can get them down below $10 each. He is selling the 'unsigned' replicas for $69.99. So for about $9.00 and a little elbow grease (maybe a couple of hours max on each one) you are making roughly $60 profit - $30 an hr. Not to bad of a racket.

They are also making replica boxes as well.

The bigger issue is when they do the 'replica' auto. Some look 'stamped/ but other look like ballpoint (go see his Roger Maris). They also artificially 'age' some of the balls to make them appear more authentic to the time period.

One other issue - and one that MLB and MLBPA might take issue to is that they offer NEW Blank balls with ANY current modern players 'facsimile' auto attached to it. If they are as good as the Maris, it could be a huge Fraud waiting to happen. Are they licensed by MLB and MLBPA to make facsimile auto balls of current players?

As I said - it's VERY scary that this guys is out here doing this. Would some of his pieces pass PSA/DNA or JSA? Who knows.

The only true test to determine REAL from REPLICA (for balls representing 1973 and before) would be a testing of the hide. Balls up to the beginning of the 1974 season were made with Horsehide. Since Opening Day 1974, they have been made with cowhide.

I doubt that this guy is making Horsehide baseballs.

- Smitty

[SteelCity]

Most of these are obvious fakes to vintage ball collectors, regarding the "blank" itself, but they're getting better and better. This guy is far from the best, I've seen some great repros from other anonymous ebayers that have since either quit, or gone "off-line" with their work. But, that said, he's not "making" baseballs so they have an appearance of being authentic. They buy original cowhide and likely some lower end horsehide baseballs and scrub the logos. So these were original balls of some kind.

You can find multi-color laced leather balls pretty cheap that are used and stamps are well worn, if not non-existent all together. We've covered this stuff in pretty fair detail on my site, but I think it's time to do a side by side comparison to help collectors spot fakes. I may buy some just to take detailed hi-res photos side by side with some of my vintage authentics - although I don't have any pre-1930 any more unfortunately.

Some things that stand out are the raised seems, the "fat" and elongated stitches, compare to originals here: http://photos.bigleaguebaseballs.com/national-league-official-game-baseballs/ Originals are much smaller, tighter, and flat seamed. There are several changes, before they dropped down to 108 stitches, and later you can see the difference in seems and stitch size into the 50s and 60s. That's where it begins to get tougher to differentiate. You can easily buy a dozen off-brand horsehide balls from the 60s-70s for pretty cheap and forge the Giles/Cronin even some Harridge and Frick balls.

Also - the scrubbed logos leave worn leather (although those tampered panels might not be shown in the pics), additionally you really compare each logo to the originals you can begin to spot differences. Some of those a pretty poor if you know what you're looking for, but they could fool people who know nothing about vintage balls and are only looking at the signature. Usually the stamping is digital - pixilated and not a clean hand pressed or machine pressed, like a rubber stamp.

I am no expert either on vintage, I know modern much better. But I always know some dead giveaways. We've had site members look into the copywright infringement issues and unfortunately they might be fair game since some logos may no longer covered. It's believed that Akadema owns the Reach logo and they still use it for souvenir balls: http://www.akademapro.com/store/collectibles/vintageball.html

Older Spalding may no longer be covered. I'll try to dig up more info from articles we've posted and share it here if there's interest. I can't wait for the day one of these frauds tries to forge a Rawlings logo / ball, and I see it listed for sale - probably not worth it yet, but some have great value. Could happen and that will start the infringement process.