Goldin Auctions Paul Warfield Miami Dolphins [Archive]

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Cubanfan

02-22-2013, 07:34 PM

I took a peak at the preview today. The Warfield jersey description IMO is way off! The Dolphins in 73 did not use Sandknit (Russell). Also jersey font is not 73. IMO a replica jersey for sure. The memorabilia evaluation and research service really missed the boat on this one!

Carlos

Fernsix@aol.com

Always Looking for pre-1980 Miami Dolphins

KGoldin

02-22-2013, 08:39 PM

Thank you for the post
The jersey is described as a circa 1973 jersey and early 1970s by goldin auctions. It was not stated to be 1973( I see that on the MEARS cert it says that)
If you can email me specifics on how exactly this cannot be a game issued but not worn jersey as described, please email me at ken@goldinauctions.com

We will look At it immediately, show info to MEARS, and if necessary pull the item
Thanks
Ken

cohibasmoker

02-23-2013, 10:27 AM

Seems to me that the Dolphins jersey style (s) were all over the place in the early-mid 1970's. Sleeve stripes vs no sleeves strips, different fonts for the numbers as well as different fonts for the letters used on the nameplates, sewn-on numbers vs heat-pressed numbers etc. I think it may have been a transitional thing between jersey manufacturers or it could have been certain players liked the way a certain jersey fit.

Whatever it may have been, I think one way to get an idea without seeing the tags may be the cut of the shoulder - Wilson had a specific cut while Sand-knit had another.

I've attached some links and you guys decide.

http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Search.aspx?contractUrl=2&language=en-US&family=editorial&assetType=image&ep=2&mt=photography&p=dolphins+warfield

http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Search.aspx?contractUrl=2&language=en-US&family=editorial&assetType=image&ep=2&mt=photography&p=dolphins+1973

genius

02-23-2013, 10:49 AM

Would have to be either a 1973 or 1974 season jersey in my opinion. Getty #139023952 shows a good view of his jersey front before Super Bowl VIII and it's a different style, the "2" seems a bit more slim on the jersey in question and the shoulder seam and collar "v" is different. Might be some YouTube video of the 74 season that shows the nameplate that season, though the jersey in the auction seems to have screened-on letters rather than a nameplate which I think is unusual. Nice jersey though, still might be worth that opening bid to someone!

Cubanfan

02-23-2013, 02:02 PM

Ken,

The only year during the 1970's that the Dolphins wore Sandknit was in 1972. The 1972 Sandknit tag is the one that includes the Designed and tailored for the Miami Dolphins plus the care laundry tag. Many of the 70,71 jerseys (Wilson) were used in 72. The jersey in question is similar to one currently on e bay. Hope this information is helpful.

vintage 80S MIAMI DOLPHINS TEAL #31 HUGHES SAND KNIT MESH JERSEY MEDIUM M

Carlos

KGoldin

02-23-2013, 02:13 PM

Thanks
I spoke to Troy at MEARS and the cert is being adjusted to reflect 'circa' 1973 or 'early 1970s' and a new one will be uploaded on Monday. Thank you for your help.

cohibasmoker

02-23-2013, 03:50 PM

Here's my Dolphins jersey - made by Wilson. Rounded collar and diangular collar seams.

Jim

Cubanfan

02-23-2013, 04:20 PM

Ken,

I am glad the information was helpful. You mentioned Troy at MEARS is going to adjust the cert to reflect "circa" 1973 or early 1970's. He will adjust the cert to a replica I assume? With all due respect to Troy. It can not be a 1970. They used Wilson (no stripes). It can not be a 1971. They used Wilson.(no stripes). It can not be a 1972. Wrong font, wrong Sand-Knit tag. It can not be a 1973, 1974. They used Russell. (1974 was his last year). IMO the jersey is a replica very similar to some I see often on e bay.

Respectfully,

Carlos

KGoldin

02-23-2013, 04:32 PM

Hi Carlos
I am going to point him to this thread and see if he can either chime in or give me his comments.
I have no interest in auctioning a replica so if this is deemed the case the item will be pulled
Thanks for your help, we have 300 game used items in this auction and have no interest in a single one, no matter how small, being incorrect
Regards
Ken goldin

genius

02-23-2013, 07:20 PM

This thread was the first I've ever heard of Goldin Auctions, nice to see this kind of response.

commando

02-23-2013, 08:57 PM

This thread was the first I've ever heard of Goldin Auctions, nice to see this kind of response.

Ken's been around forever, but the auction is new as of last year. I see Goldin Auctions quickly rising to the top in a crowded field, and have a feeling its gonna be around for a while.

Mulligans

02-23-2013, 09:07 PM

Ken's been around forever, but the auction is new as of last year. I see Goldin Auctions quickly rising to the top in a crowded field, and have a feeling its gonna be around for a while.

I couldn't agree more.

cohibasmoker

02-24-2013, 07:15 AM

This thread was the first I've ever heard of Goldin Auctions, nice to see this kind of response.

I agree - most auction houses won't even respond to emails through the auction site let alone a public forum. It will be interesting to see if Troy "Publicly" responds.

Just some thoughts

G1X

02-24-2013, 06:43 PM

I am not sharing an opinion on the Warfield jersey in question other than to say that I agree with Carlos (a very knowledgeable Dolphins collector in my humble opinion) in his observation about the type of Sand Knit tag appearing to be incorrect for 1972, and agreeing with Genius (a well-versed football collector) in his observation about the number style. Here are my questions to Carlos or anyone else who has extensive knowledge on Dolphins jerseys from that era:

1. The Dolphins usually wore white at home in 1972. The very few times they wore aqua, it appears that they wore the previous style Wilson jerseys that had no sleeve stripes. Is there any photo evidence that the Dolphins wore aqua Sand Knit jerseys in 1972?

2. Did the Dolphins ever don aqua Sand Knit jerseys - even "recycled" Sand Knit jerseys mixed in with their Russell jerseys - during Warfield's tenure with the Dolphins? (For readers not familiar, there is a distinct difference between Sand Knit and Russell jerseys in that era that can be readily seen in photos.)

3. It appears that the 1972 white Sand Knit jerseys had sewn-on numbers. Were there any '72 Sand Knit jerseys with screened-on numbers? If not, I would assume that the aqua jersey would be similar and have sewn-on numbers, although I realize that this is a big (and dangerous) assumption to make.

4. Giving the benefit of the doubt that the top tag (Designed & Tailored tag) came off the jersey, has anyone ever seen a legitimate 1972 Sand Knit jersey with the idenitical type of Sand Knit size tag (bottom tag) as seen on the Warfield jersey in question? (For readers not familiar with Sand Knit tagging from the early 1970s, there were two tags as seen in the below photos keeping in mind that tags would occasionally fall off.)

On a sidenote, it looks like Bill Stanfill wore either a white Russell or white Wilson with seeve stripes late in 1972 based on the orange "fill-in" on the shouder numbers.

For what it's worth, retail replicas of certain star players were made available in 1974. The local sporting goods chain in my area carried a few Sand Knit jerseys that included Snake Stabler, Fred Biletnikoff, and O.J. Simpson. I cannot recall the exact Sand Knit tagging, but I clearly recall that the player's names were screened directly on the back. The reason I remember the year was because the Raiders and Bills played in the Monday Night Football opener (Bills won 21-20 on a late Ahmad Rashad TD catch), and when I made a visit to the local sporting goods store a few days later, the above mentioned jerseys were on display plus a Jets Namath and two or three others. They were well made replicas for that era other than the names were screened directly on the back.

My intent here is not to "judge" the Warfield jersey, especially since I have never seen it in person and held it in my hands. The purpose of my post is to provide information based on my experiences and observations, and ask questions that might help shed a bit more light on issues that have been raised. It is up to interested bidders to draw their own conclusions.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

KGoldin

02-24-2013, 07:21 PM

Hello All.
I wanted to post because I have had 3 internet server or bounceback errors from MEARS servers when i have emailed him in past 48 hours. Troy is normally excellent in getting back to me in a timely manner and I am sure he will do so in this case as well.

regards
Ken Goldin
Ken@goldinauctions.com

gingi79

02-24-2013, 08:02 PM

mickeymbz

02-24-2013, 08:56 PM

1929tudor

02-24-2013, 10:05 PM

I feel bad for the consignor buying the jersey with a Mears cert and maybe paying big bucks for it and then now maybe finding out it isn't as good as he thought. Who pays for the mistake on that? Mears or the guy he bought it from?

ChuckFoPrez

02-25-2013, 10:50 AM

While we're on the tagging thing, can someone explain this one? Thanks much, fellas!

slab0meat

02-25-2013, 01:13 PM

KGoldin

02-25-2013, 06:40 PM

As expected, i did hear back from Troy. He disagrees that it is a 'replica' and has never seen an example of a dolphins 'replica' from the era. He feels it could be game issue, while it also could be promotional or a salesman sample. He did specifically say he would not be comfortable with the term 'replica' being used on this jersey. I appreciate his info.

What i do know is i cannot, with 100% confidence offer the jersey as 'game issue not worn' as originally offered, and i do not like ambiguity so i have removed the jersey from the auction.

Thank you for your help.
Ken Goldin
ken@goldinauctions.com

ps: our auction is no open for bidding

BrianK

02-25-2013, 07:20 PM

I'm surprised this jersey is being debated. Carlos will be proven right eventually.

cohibasmoker

02-25-2013, 07:46 PM

KGoldin

02-25-2013, 08:19 PM

Ken - would you mind disclosing who the consignor is?

There will never be an instance where i will disclose a consignor, that would be unethical. I will tell you the jersey came to me with a COA that goldin auctions would not accept to run in the catalog. As such, we sent it to MEARS. Since I am not running the item I will be personally eating the cost ( I mention this because someone posted about how the consignor is out his mears fees)

Again, thanks for the input, the goal is to get 100% right, not 99%. as such, the item was removed.

I do have a live auction running now, and this item is pulled, so dont be offended if i do not reply to any more comments in this thread! I have a lot to go
regards

G1X

02-26-2013, 08:53 AM

Kevin,
Thank you for taking the appropriate action in this matter from the very beginnig to the end.

Troy,
If you a reading this, could you please provide photo evidence proving that Paul Warfield wore an aqua Sand Knit jersey with his name screened directly on the back. Further, please provide evidence that the Dolphins wore aqua Sand Knit jerseys during Warfield's tenure. Also, please provide evidence that the Dolphins had this type of tagging on its game-used jerseys when Warfield was with the team. Finally, please provide evidence that the Dolphins ever wore aqua Sand Knit jerseys with screened-on numbers and names screened directly on the back.

I urge you to go back and read my post #14 in this thread very carefully, especially the last paragraph regarding replicas from that era. The questions raised in the first portion of that post #14 were not really things that I needed answers to, but rather question for Kevin, you, and others to research so that you would find the answers for yourself.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

G1X

02-26-2013, 08:56 AM

Ken,
My sincere apologies for referring to you as Kevin in the previous post.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

slab0meat

02-26-2013, 10:42 AM

Maybe mention this forum & thread TO the consignor...? Maybe he/she would be interested in what's being discussed here.

esquiresports

02-26-2013, 01:52 PM

If nothing else comes out of this tread, I am certainly sold on Ken Goldin's intention and integrity when it comes to his auctions. It also seems in Carlos we have another wonderful resource on Dolphins gamers of the 70's.

For GUU, this thread has been a win/win.

+1. Sometimes I have concerns with a particular jersey, and I only bring those to the auction house's attention after a significant amount of research. Unfortunately, the response I get back is often "this comes from a very reputable source; if you are not comfortable with the jersey, you should not bid on it." And that's it - for jerseys without a Mears cert or other prior authentication process.

The extra work Ken puts into his auctions is impressive and I look forward to participating in his auctions. No one is going to be perfect, but with the present attitude, Goldin Auctions will be at or near the top.

[For disclosure purposes, I have not previously purchased anything from Goldin and am not affiliated with them.]

commando

02-26-2013, 03:10 PM

For what it's worth, retail replicas of certain star players were made available in 1974. The local sporting goods chain in my area carried a few Sand Knit jerseys that included Snake Stabler, Fred Biletnikoff, and O.J. Simpson. I cannot recall the exact Sand Knit tagging, but I clearly recall that the player's names were screened directly on the back. The reason I remember the year was because the Raiders and Bills played in the Monday Night Football opener (Bills won 21-20 on a late Ahmad Rashad TD catch), and when I made a visit to the local sporting goods store a few days later, the above mentioned jerseys were on display plus a Jets Namath and two or three others. They were well made replicas for that era other than the names were screened directly on the back.

I recently picked up this Sand Knit Detroit Lions jersey. I believe the only year the Lions used this simple white/silver/white three-stripe sleeve pattern was in 1972. Anyhow, I tend to think this jersey was a salesman sample or high-end retail jersey like Mark mentioned. There has never been a player name on the back, nor was this person a superstar player (wide receiver Larry Walton). The numbers are screened very heavily, probably just like a gamer, but I think the giveaways on this Lions shirt are 1) no exclusive team tag, 2) shoulders are single-mesh instead of double, and 3) the horizontal shoulder seam across the front of the #49 jersey runs a couple of inches below the neckline, as opposed to being flush.

With all of that being said, how many of these have you seen before? Probably not many. Sand Knit produced their share of interesting pro jerseys, many of which are just now coming to the attention of the collecting hobby.

Maybe we should consider building a Sand Knit exemplar archive thread for NFL jerseys?

G1X

02-26-2013, 08:42 PM

Anthony,

Some possible good news for you. There is a possibility that this might actually be a team-issued jersey. (It has a lot more going for it than the Warfield.) Below are some observations that you might find interesting. My first two points might be especially helpful in clearing the air on a couple of general misconceptions about early 1970s Sand Knit jerseys.

1. When Sand Knit first started producing mesh jerseys for the NFL during that era, single-ply shoulders were the norm. All of the early 1970s game-used Falcons mesh jerseys in my collection have single-ply shoulders as do numerous World Football League jerseys (1974/75) in my possession. Look closely at football cards from the first half of the 1970s and you will see that single-ply shoulders were quite common. (On a side note, single-ply shoulders can be found as late as the mid-1990s as some Falcon linemen wore that style.)

2. The horizontal seam running a couple of inches below that neck is actually correct for a round-neck Sand Knit jersey. Again, refer to early 1970s football cards as it can be seen on various teams. See Bob Tucker's 1975 card #255 for a great example.

3. In 1999, I purchased about 800 jerseys directly from the Detroit Lions. In the mix were approximately 100 durene jerseys from the early 1970s. Several of the durene jerseys were missing the upper tag and, interestingly, they were from 1972. I could never really determine if they had washed out or were simply never there. I still have one in my possession and it appears that it simply never had the upper tag (the "Designed & Tailored" tag).

4. The size tag on your jersey was the standard lower tag used through at least 1974 (there are several variations of this tag). On the other hand, the Warfield tag does not match for that era.

5. From what I can tell, the Lions used this particular style for only a very short time, perhaps only in the preseason of 1972. I would find it a bit unusal to see replicas of a short-lived style, especially in that era (and especially of a non-star player). Maybe some Lions collectors can join the discussion and verify the exact time frame this style was worn, and some old-timers like me can state whether high-quality replicas of that style were available.

Hope this information was helpful.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

G1X

02-26-2013, 08:50 PM

Anthony,

To clarify one point, while I stated that the horizontal seam running a few inches below a rounded neck is correct, I should have stated that it is the norm for many Sand Knit jerseys of that era. You are correct in your observation that the game photos of the Lions wearing this style appear to have the horizontal seam running flush (or close to being flush) to the collar.

My apologies for not being more concise in my previous post.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net