A photo match for your collection

[skipcareyisfat]

If you're a photo-match collector this one looks promising. The Chris Sabo helmet up for sale on eBay right now looks like the one he's wearing on the Getty photo below. You'd have to see the helmet in person to get a better angle, but the three dots on the brim look like the same dots in the photo. Disclosure: I have no idea who the seller is. It just looks like it would make a decent addition to a photo-match collection.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=012&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=220047047444&rd=1&rd=1

[kylehess10]

Here's another good item for a photomatch collector. It's an 06 Jeff Francis jersey I saw on eBay which is photomatched to a game on August 19,2006

http://cgi.ebay.com/Jeff-Francis-Colorado-Rockies-Game-Used-Jersey_W0QQitemZ120050795973QQihZ002QQcategoryZ605 97QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/71679973.jpg?v=1&c=MS_GINS&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193875DCB1DD8387ABBCFC0F12EDA3C7206

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/71680016.jpg?v=1&c=MS_GINS&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193875DCB1DD8387ABB8A34D5AA55FB528E

http://i17.ebayimg.com/04/i/08/c5/0b/b8_1.JPG

http://i21.ebayimg.com/01/i/08/c3/ef/f9_1.JPG

[stkmtimo]

Kyle,

Just curious, how is that Francis jersey a photo match?

Thanks,

Tim

[kylehess10]

Kyle,

Just curious, how is that Francis jersey a photo match?

Thanks,

Tim


All of the pinstripes match up.

[zonker]

this is not a photo-match on the 1st jersey there's part of the "O" that laps over to the left side of jersey and on the second jersey it's not there

[zonker]

sorry my computer screen stink's!

[gameused]

The line going thru the second letter O is the only difference I can see, it may be because the jersey is bunched up and twisted in the getty action photo.

[kellsox]

I have read several posts in the forum on photomatching and I believe that one of the more difficult things to do is be objective. It is important to distinguish what you want to see/what you think you should see from what is actually there. Too many times I have read about a "photomatch" with a few similarities but nothing clearly and unquestionalbly the same(nevermind other traits that may be different but are not mentioned). In my opinion, unless the match is clear as day, it shouldn't be considered a photomatch. This is why the forum is a valuable tool because people w/o an stake in an item can put in their 2 cents regading a possible match.
Kelly

[PK]

I agree, a photo match to me is being able to see a mark or blemishon a jersey and also being able to see that same mark or blemish on a game photo.

You could never sell me that a jersey is photomatched because the pinstripes line up.

[kingjammy24]

"You could never sell me that a jersey is photomatched because the pinstripes line up."

why not?

rudy.

[PK]

Maybe it is just me, but it seems too inconclusive to be a "photo match".

How many specific jerseys does a baseball player wear? 2-3 each of home and roads? Correct me if I am wrong, but do all baseball jerseys have set tags? I don't think they do

So if I am photo matching a jersey based on pinstripes, who is to say that another set jersey or all the sets of that jersey are not lined up exactly the same? Or too close to tell by human eye? There is no way to match that specific set to a specific game, hence no photomatch. I bet if you look at some authentics the pinstripes may line up exactly as in the real gamers. People are making pretty goog knockoffs these days. Granted , not usually of common players, but they do.

This to me comes more into play if said player gets a milestone or what ever in a specific game, who can 100% say it is that specific jersey because pinstripes line up. Just does not make sense to me.

That's why I like Meigray and hockey jerseys, You know EXACTLY what set jerseys were worn in EXACTLY what games. Plus hockey jerseys are easily matched from stick marks.

Matt

[kingjammy24]

hi matt,

i think we both agree that the definition of a photomatched item is that it contains an element that makes that item uniquely identifiable.
for me, there are many possible elements that can be used to photomatch, beyond simply a stain. i recently purchased a 1992 road jersey, for example, that has a manufacturing defect - it has a button sewn inside one of the letters on the front. i've only seen this manufacturing defect occur on a couple of jerseys in a 3 year timespan. on 99.9% of these jerseys, the button is sewn on the outside of the letter. i found a 1993 baseball card of the player wearing a road jersey that shows the button sewn inside the letter. the defect itself is such a rare anomaly that i have to think that the odds of it appearing on 2 jerseys in the same year for the same player are extremely slim. as i said, i've only seen it twice in total after looking at dozens of jerseys over a 3 yr time span.

in terms of pinstripe matching, here's my 2 bits to your questions:

"So if I am photo matching a jersey based on pinstripes, who is to say that another set jersey or all the sets of that jersey are not lined up exactly the same? Or too close to tell by human eye?"

good question. have you examined many pinstriped jerseys? i'm going to wager you haven't. simply from experience i'll say that the odds of 3 pinstriped jerseys all lining up exactly the same at the front logo, seams and back name/numbers is beyond slim. this has nothing to do with set numbers, set tags, milestones, or specific games. a jersey is either photomatched or isn't. whether we're talking about a milestone game or not is irrelevant on this issue.

the issue solely revolves around the extreme unlikelihood of pinstripes matching up with the front logo, front numbers, seams, back numbers, and nob on 2 separate jerseys. after looking at a number of pinstriped jerseys, i'll say it doesn't happen. the matchup is always slightly different on some point on each jersey. it's never identical at every single point on 2 jerseys. if you can show me a single case of 2 separate jerseys where the pinstripes match up on all of these elements then i'll print out this post and literally eat it.

when used against ALL of the elements on a jersey, pinstripes are far more unique and reliable than you think.

"That's why I like Meigray and hockey jerseys, You know EXACTLY what set jerseys were worn in EXACTLY what games"

question for you: i don't collect hockey jerseys and have never bought from meigray. if you buy a meigray hockey jersey, how do you know exactly which jerseys were worn in specific games?

rudy.

[PK]

Rudy, thanks for your feedback, I would agree that you have most likely seen a few more pinstripe jerseys then me, but let me ask you this...can you show me an example of 2 different sets of the same players jersey from the same year where the pinstripes do not line up? And also within the past couple of years?

As for Meigray, Barry can corect me if I am a little off here, but Meigray has what they call a population report. http://www.nhlgameworn.com/ctlimg/NHLGW/reports/2005-2006_population_report.xls

This report shows EXACTLY how many jerseys each player wore in a specific season. It also show what games each set was worn in and when they changed to the next set. For example, if you take the first jersey on the list,
C00006AnaheimBeauchemin, Francois23White Set 1

If you then click team set dates you will see that Francois wore this set 1 jersey from Wed Oct 5 - Wed Nov 30. Whites are road jerseys in the NHL so you know he wore this specific jersey for EXACTLY 10 games and EXACTLY what 10 dates.

This is what every major sport team needs to do, tag every jersey with a specific code and keep acurate dates to when jersey sets change. Just my .02

Matt

[kingjammy24]

"but let me ask you this...can you show me an example of 2 different sets of the same players jersey from the same year where the pinstripes do not line up? And also within the past couple of years?"

matt, of course! that's what exactly what i was saying; it would be extremely unlikely for someone to find 2 different jerseys from the same player and same year and have the pinstripes match up. in almost every case, the pinstripe matchups will be different. if i had the time to go through it, i could show you hundreds of pinstriped jerseys from the same player, same year where the pinstripe matchups are different. at any rate,
having spent just 10 min, i managed to come up with these examples:

http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/1850/pinstp9.jpg

i'm not quite sure what relevance set numbers have. are you implying that set numbers somehow effect how a jersey is manufactured? i can assure you they do not. set numbers are a relative concept. depending on the team/manufacturer, they refer to different things. sometimes they refer to all jerseys within a style, sometimes they refer to all jerseys within a single purchase order or production run, etc. when rawlings manufactures a jersey, for example, they don't think "well since this jersey is going to be a set 1, we should start cutting the fabric at a first pinstripe. however this other jersey is going to be a set 2, so we'll cut the fabric differently".
many teams these days don't even use set numbers anymore.

the important point here is that when the nob and numbers are applied, they're usually applied in a slightly different location on each jersey. hence the value of pinstripes.

re: meigray; meigray seems like a great dealer and barry's a very nice guy but they're not immune to making administrative or clerical errors. i'm sure there's a great deal of work put into their population report and i suspect it's highly accurate. however, at the end of the day, unlike a photomatch, the population report is not a guarantee. administrative errors, clerical errors, and innocent typos are all possible. you're depending on a human to accurately note when the jerseys are changed, which specific ones are used, collect the proper ones, sort them out properly, populate the database, write the letters, etc. at some point in the process, it's very possible that someone will accidentally make an error. they'll put the wrong jersey in the wrong pile or list the wrong week or some such.

rudy.

[PK]

Rudy, I stand corrected, very nice work.

As for jersey sets, I just thought that they took a little more time to sew on names and numbers and they would be more closely matched up, therefore being almost the same jersey to the naked eye. Learn something new everyday I guess:D

Yes, I would have to agree with you as well about Barry and Meigray being a great company and yes there is always that possibility of human error, things happen, but I will take that population report and a Meigray LOA over any team records/LOA. With that said, there are really on 2 things that are for sure, death and taxes.

Matt

[r_to_the_2nd@yahoo.com]

Anyone know who purchased this Sabo game used helmet? Would pay hansomly for this helmet.

[xpress34]

You could never sell me that a jersey is photomatched because the pinstripes line up.

Pinstriped jerseys are the easiest to Photo Match (or to debunk).

You have to understand that to make a Pinstriped jersey, the material is cut randomly (depending on the size jersey being made) - meaning that it is not cut so that the pinstripes are in the same spot every time.

The Tackle Twill - Team Name, Player Name, Nmbers, Patches, MLB Logo, Manufacturer Logo (Rawlings, Russell, Majestic, etc) - is all added AFTER the jersey has been stitched together and buttons attached.

None of the Tackle Twill is aligned to the pinstripes. It is placed based on centering on the jersey or sleeves making it's alignment to any given pinstripe random as well.

Every pinstripe jersey is unique in how it's pinstripes and tackle twill appliques match up - much like a finger print.

Even the button placards are unique. I have Rockies jerseys with the pinstripe directly through the center of the button holes and ones with the stripes on either side of the button holes and everything in between.

The odds of any two pinstripe jerseys being exactly the same (unless all the pieces were hand cut and sewn to match pinstripe placement) is fairly astronomical.

The Yankees 'NY' and the Rockies 'CR' jerseys have something like 14-20 something unique points in their 'interlocking logos' that make pinstripe matching exact. In fact, it was the NY on the front of one of Roger Maris' 1960 Yankees jerseys that made it possible to photo match it (a 1960 jersey) as being THE jersey he was actually wearing when he hit #61 in 1961.

I would argue that if you are going to collect baseball jerseys, pinstripe jerseys are the best for photo matching purposes.

[xpress34]

I would also add (in reference to the 'Set' tags) that there is no 'common denominator' in set tags across MLB.

The Rockies for example have had jerseys with and without strip tags in the same year.

There has been no consistency with strip (set) tagging with the Rockies since they started in 1993.

One very unique item the Rockies did do with Russell (from 1993 until 2002 or so when Majestic took over) was the Rockies buttons on Home Whites. The jerseys that were sent directly to the clubhouse for players (whether named and numbered or blank back extras) had EXCLUSIVE Cream Colored buttons that had Colorado Rockies stamped around the edge of the buttons. I am not aware of any other team ever having this practice.

That said, in the Rockies 1st couple of years, there are some GAME USED 'store authentic' jerseys out there with Rockies LOAs that are legitimate. The Rockies had a habit of ordering as few jerseys as they could for players, and on more than one occasion after the 'jersey of the day' was selected by the pitcher, they would find out that a player didn't have the correct jersey due to damage or the jersey had been given away for charity or what have you.

The Rockies would send a clubbie to the team store in the stadium and have a jersey (store authentic) pulled and have the name and number stitched on for the player to wear in the game.

It makes collecting early (1993-1994) Rockies jerseys a tough nut to crack at points.

Just an FYI.

- Smitty

[johnsontravis@ymail.com]

Actually if you want to see difference in pinstripe jerseys you don't even need to compare two jerseys of the same player.

All the jerseys get the front lettering applied to it before it is ever assigned to a specific player. So really all you need is to compare jerseys in a single game. You will see every player has a unique way it lines up with pinstripes.

On the Brewers retro jerseys a lot of times the "W" will match up as it is in the middle near the opening, but other than that they are very different.

[xpress34]

Attached are pictures of 9 Rockies jerseys I own.

All home white Pinstripes.

I am only using the Swingman Logo and Button Placards to show the varience in just the most basic elements that are on all pinstripe Rox jerseys - whether blank back or done up.

Notice that while a couple look the same, they are actually different - look where the pnstripes come through the swingman... on the buttons notice how they are on either side of the stripe and some are right between the stripes. I have had one that had the pinstripe right down the middle through the buttons...

- Smitty

[csu398]

2004 Francis rookie year road jersey. The AP image was taken on September 5th 2004 when he got his first MLB win.

[genius]

definitive photo match and identifiable very quickly in my opinion. Easy to tell with the pinstripes.