Opinion based authentication process...good or bad

[sportsnbikes]

I'm sure there have been posts on this before but I wanted to ask everyone if they know how the authentication works.

Who is hired to do this job? How are they trained and what makes them an expert? How good of a service are we getting for our money? How many "experts" can there possibly be with the amount of items that are sent in?

These are all questions that I ask myself when I see an item authenticated by a company like JSA, PSA and etc.

I haven't had a ton of things authenticated but I had 2 autographs that I had signed in person at Kauffman Stadium, a Trout 2012 AS jersey and a Miguel Cabrera 2012 AS bat, that weren't able to be authenticated by the companies they were sent to. JSA denied the jersey and PSA denied the bat. I got them IN PERSON. I was surprised they were denied, to say the least.

This summer, I plan to do an experiment by filming a player sign a ball and then have a box ready to go right there. I'm going to seal it up and mail it. I'll then film the opening of the return package. I want to document this process. I'll post a link to the video.

[xpress34]

At the risk of 'stirring the pot'. here's a link to an old thread where I broke down the numbers of PSA/DNA:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=50363&highlight=psa

There are many more if you search the forums.

I too have had items that I got signed in person turned down by these companies.

Good Luck!

- Smitty

[trsent]

I'm sure there have been posts on this before but I wanted to ask everyone if they know how the authentication works.

Who is hired to do this job? How are they trained and what makes them an expert? How good of a service are we getting for our money? How many "experts" can there possibly be with the amount of items that are sent in?

These are all questions that I ask myself when I see an item authenticated by a company like JSA, PSA and etc.

I haven't had a ton of things authenticated but I had 2 autographs that I had signed in person at Kauffman Stadium, a Trout 2012 AS jersey and a Miguel Cabrera 2012 AS bat, that weren't able to be authenticated by the companies they were sent to. JSA denied the jersey and PSA denied the bat. I got them IN PERSON. I was surprised they were denied, to say the least.

This summer, I plan to do an experiment by filming a player sign a ball and then have a box ready to go right there. I'm going to seal it up and mail it. I'll then film the opening of the return package. I want to document this process. I'll post a link to the video.

The thread linked to by "Smitty" is a joke of an estimate by a PSA/DNA customer with sour grapes and shouldn't be taken seriously since the figures are just numbers the guy pulled out of thin air and have not been confirmed by anyone but his speculation.

As for your autographs not passing 3rd party authentication, did you ever think if you get an autograph in person and the player rushes the signature and doesn't sign similarly to known exemplars that your autograph may look so different they cannot document it as genuine?

It is very common. When Mike Trout is sitting down, signings for a fee for a promoter it is often a different signature that you getting him walking down the street. PSA/DNA (who I trust and swear by) and JSA (who I believe is very inaccurate and unreliable) use samples of known authentic signatures and if you get a crappy signature on the street it is impossible for them to give a positive opinion of that signature comparing it to known examples.

You are not the first and won't be the last to have this issue. A video doesn't mean anything, as like I said, if your autograph doesn't match up with known examples of the players signature, it doesn't matter that you got it in person if the player doesn't sign like they have at say, paid autograph sessions in the past.

[solarlottry]

trsent-I understand your point about how items that have "non standard" autographs can and are rejected by PSA/DNA or JSA. Autographs obtained under a variety of circumstances can and do have different characteristics than those obtained in ideal conditions such as a card show or private signing.

One would think though that it is the responsibility of PSA/DNA or JSA to obtain examples of players autographs obtained under ALL circumstances. How hard would it be to obtain samples of a certain players signature at a card show, private signing, at the ball park and walking down the street? PSA and JSA are supposed experts and an expert to me is someone who is able to determine when something is genuine under multiple sets of circumstances and not just under ideal settings. That is like saying that a doctor does a good job when things go perfectly but if the situation changes then there is no need for adaptation because things have differed from the norm.

PSA is paid to evaluate autographs and one would think that they have enough experience to differentiate between ball park, card show and private signing signatures. Isn't an expert supposed to do that and thus determine authentic from junk? I am sure there are more than enough examples of every kind of signature from the superstars mention in the post to determine authenticity.

Paul

Always buying 49er game used items andnpayingna finders fee.

garciajones@yahoo.com

[sportsnbikes]

I agree Solar.

The thing is that the autograph Trout signed doesn't look any different than that of the ones I see from paid signings. The Miguel C isn't his bigger M type signature but it looks real good. When I got home, I'll post pics and you all can judge the autographs and tell me what you think.

[sportsnbikes]

trsent

I don't necessarily agree with you that a video won't mean anything. From a point of proving that these companies are not experts it will mean a ton.

[xpress34]

The thread linked to by "Smitty" is a joke of an estimate by a PSA/DNA customer with sour grapes and shouldn't be taken seriously since the figures are just numbers the guy pulled out of thin air and have not been confirmed by anyone but his speculation.

As for your autographs not passing 3rd party authentication, did you ever think if you get an autograph in person and the player rushes the signature and doesn't sign similarly to known exemplars that your autograph may look so different they cannot document it as genuine?

It is very common. When Mike Trout is sitting down, signings for a fee for a promoter it is often a different signature that you getting him walking down the street. PSA/DNA (who I trust and swear by) and JSA (who I believe is very inaccurate and unreliable) use samples of known authentic signatures and if you get a crappy signature on the street it is impossible for them to give a positive opinion of that signature comparing it to known examples.

You are not the first and won't be the last to have this issue. A video doesn't mean anything, as like I said, if your autograph doesn't match up with known examples of the players signature, it doesn't matter that you got it in person if the player doesn't sign like they have at say, paid autograph sessions in the past.

Joel -

Do you just track whatever I post thinking that you might scare me away?

As you continue to suckle the PSA/DNA teat, you refuse to acknowledge that the numbers I used were 'pulled' from PSA/DNAs website, not from thin air.

Just because you're obviously 'in bed' with the folks at PSA/DNA, it doesn't change the FACT that THEY posted the numbers I used as a baseline, so you sir can kindly kiss my @$$.

I'm getting a good chuckle at your comment that, "A video doesn't mean anything...". So if someone videos an item getting signed that has OBVIOUS markers that could not be recreated, then that video has no value in your eyes.

That said, then why should ANYONE trust the OPINION of YOU, PSA/DNA, ME or any other person who 'claims' in their 'opinion' that an autograph is authentic.

I also find it funny that YOU are the ONLY person who has ever claimed I pulled the numbers 'out of thin air'.

If anyone else wants to see the current numbers from PSA/DNA, go to their website: PSA/DNA (http://www.psacard.com/).

Collectibles Certified as of 4/13 : 20,604,663 (from the ticker on their page)

21 'Experts' (from their site)

Hours - M-F 7am-5pm (again from their website)

Joel has 'sour grapes' with me because I call him out on his hypocrisy and BS that he likes to spout.

But I digress.

I will be the 1st to admit that having a PSA/DNA, JSA, etc sticker and letter with your item will make it sell faster and for a higher fee, but it is akin to the people who pay exorbitant prices at charity auctions for items that are not even GU or Authentic Model Jerseys because they don't know any better and because the companies running the charity auctions get so much out of the items, they believe their item has a higher value than it really does.

Have an awesome day everyone.

- Smitty

BTW - I have called PSA/DNA and asked for confirmation and they will not give it. It my numbers are such BS as Joel would have you believe, how come NO ONE from PSA/DNA has ever come her to defend themselves? It's not like I'm hiding? So Joel, call your buddies and ask them to come and address this issue themselves instead of acting like you speak on their behalf.

[trsent]

"Smitty" feel smug?'

Good for you!

[trsent]

trsent-I understand your point about how items that have "non standard" autographs can and are rejected by PSA/DNA or JSA. Autographs obtained under a variety of circumstances can and do have different characteristics than those obtained in ideal conditions such as a card show or private signing.

One would think though that it is the responsibility of PSA/DNA or JSA to obtain examples of players autographs obtained under ALL circumstances. How hard would it be to obtain samples of a certain players signature at a card show, private signing, at the ball park and walking down the street? PSA and JSA are supposed experts and an expert to me is someone who is able to determine when something is genuine under multiple sets of circumstances and not just under ideal settings. That is like saying that a doctor does a good job when things go perfectly but if the situation changes then there is no need for adaptation because things have differed from the norm.

PSA is paid to evaluate autographs and one would think that they have enough experience to differentiate between ball park, card show and private signing signatures. Isn't an expert supposed to do that and thus determine authentic from junk? I am sure there are more than enough examples of every kind of signature from the superstars mention in the post to determine authenticity.

Paul

Always buying 49er game used items andnpayingna finders fee.

garciajones@yahoo.com

Paul, I understand your points, but I must state that I see a lot of signature from athletes I work with that their sit down version is substantially different and not anything like their fly by version walking down the street.

Sure, you can state they should know what a sloppy version of a signature looks like, but I assume such a version varies and is not identifiable much of the time.

There is a good argument for and against but I prefer the better safe than sorry scenario.

[trsent]

Collectibles Certified as of 4/13 : 20,604,663 (from the ticker on their page)

21 'Experts' (from their site)

Hours - M-F 7am-5pm (again from their website)

I just can't stop laughing! You use their customer service hours to determine their autograph certification hours. That is hilarious. Keep it up, Mr. Sour Grapes!

[KGoldin]

I like my TPA for autographs the same way I like the TSA when I get on a plane.
It might be a pain in the ass to use, and nothing is perfect, but you would certainly prefer they err on the side of caution, and occasionally throw out some good ones, as opposed to being overly loose and allowing too many fakes to slip by.

[trsent]

I like my TPA for autographs the same way I like the TSA when I get on a plane.
It might be a pain in the ass to use, and nothing is perfect, but you would certainly prefer they err on the side of caution, and occasionally throw out some good ones, as opposed to being overly loose and allowing too many fakes to slip by.

...and if you don't agree with that statement you just want to live in an unrealistic universe.

[sportsnbikes]

Yes Mr Goldin I can definitely see your point there.

I guess I'm just salty that since I want to leave it to my kids, it will always be somewhat "tainted" by the fact that it didn't pass authentication. Sure I know the back story but still. I guess if there weren't crooks out there then we wouldn't need services such as that.

But I still have the question in my mind, how are these "experts" trained? What do they use to match an autograph? How much training do they get? I guess if I knew the process I'd feel a little better about it.

[sportsnbikes]

Here are the pics of the signatures in question.

[sportsnbikes]

I'm going to have to get a better system to deal with these pictures.

[sportsnbikes]

Let's try this...

[commando]

I have never paid to have an autograph authenticated (just not my thing). But from what I'm reading here, a person should do some looking around to see what a player's "typical" autograph looks like... Find several examples already certified by that company. If the signature you have is quite a bit different than the certified examples you found, don't waste your time and money sending it in -- just for it to fail.

[sportsnbikes]

That's probably some very sound advice Commando...

[Rob L]

Let's try this...

I will bet they nixed the Trout because the M and T are connected. Most aren't. If you got it in person though, then it's good!

[sportsnbikes]

Let me explain the in-person. I learned that weekend that many MLB players will sign for the ladies...but not the guys. My fiance and I were standing there together and we both had the same jersey. He signed for her and skipped right over me and signed for everyone else. We were sitting in Crown seats which are $225 seats...the first 5 or 6 rows directly behind home plate and even with the dugouts. Great seats but yep, no signatures for me. He also signed an All Star all for her the night before but for me, nada. But, it was my jersey and my paint pen...lol.

The 2 Cabrera were my doing though!

[solarlottry]

Obviously I prefer to use caution when authenticating anything as a lack thereof has cost me both in the buying and selling departments. I still think that a company that authenticates autographs as their primary business should be able to authenticate signatures beyond the "card show" or private signing session.

How hard would it be to collect known samples of each type of signature that an athlete has, thus over time compiling a data base of authentic signatures that span the card show/private signing to the ballpark.

I have always been a big Sci-Fi fan and collector of rare Philip Dick books. His signature has always been quite scarce and varied depending on a variety of issues (where he was signing, to whom, how many books he as signing at a given time etc.). A number of fellow Philip Dick collectors got together and compiled a data base of what we thought were legit signatures based on ALL the signature types. It took time and effort but by doing so we saved many a collector from buying a fake signed book. If a bunch of novice book collectors can do it then so can PSA/DNA.

Paul
garciajones@yahoo.com