Unusual Mariano Rivera

[Eric]

There is a Mariano Rivera jersey ending Monday in the Steiner Auction which has a couple of interesting things to note.

Is there something unusual about the positioning of the numbers on this piece? I have been trying to find a photo of a Yankees shirt with numbers this low, but am having trouble. Can anyone help?
2327

The people handling the Steiner auctions say that despite the crispness of a tag, if it came from the Yankees as game used, then it is.

Please note the crispness of the tag on the Rivera
2328
http://auction.steinersports.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=55076099&aunbr=76835940
Eric

[Oil Can Dan]

What did Steiner say when you asked them about it?

Just kidding, Eric!

[Eric]

The person from the auction side of steiner said "if it came from the yankees as a game used jersey, then it's a game used jersey"

[JETEFAN]

We have been over this a million times, Steiner has absolutly no clue as to what they sell !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek: :confused: :rolleyes:

[allstarsplus]

They said it was worn before the All Star break; however, they don't have any more information than that. By the look of the year tag, it doesn't look like it had much wear. Those tags fade quickly!

You know the old saying----bid accordingly!

I agree with Eric that the numbering looks low on the back.

[allstarsplus]

Not that you can come to a 100% conclusion with the signature & inscription "2006 Game Used", here's a pic of the front of the jersey.

http://akamai.edeal.com/images/catalog2264/folder8004/img3923867.jpg

[sportscentury]

We have been over this a million times, Steiner has absolutly no clue as to what they sell !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek: :confused: :rolleyes:

I have to agree with George. It's a complete joke. It amazes me that there are still collectors who blindly and mindlessly buy Steiner items solely because they are from Steiner. I feel bad for them. Steiner doesn't know what they are selling and the collectors don't know what they are buying. What a nutty world. One of my favorite threads talked about how much better the Steiner-Yankees system is compared to how the MeiGray-Rangers system was. Funny stuff.

And, Andrew, I appreciate your posts, but as a hobby veteran and one of the smarter guys in the business, you must agree that the signature and inscription by themselves mean absolutely nothing.

Cheers,
Reid

[kingjammy24]

eric: it's a noticeable drop isn't it? here's how it looks in comparison to where the numbers would normally be placed:

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/4869/rivel6.jpg

it's such a noticeable anomaly that it's ripe for a photomatch. unfortunately, if you can't find one, then all you're left with is a strange anomaly.

reid: steiner or not, collectors seem to blindly and mindlessly buy a whole slew of items. at worst, buying based on steiner is better than buying based on some completely rubbish slogan like "the name means it's real" or "obtained from an impeccable source".
at any rate, i once compared the steiner system with the meigray system and obviously concluded that although they both have exclusive team agreements, meigray is a far more accurate and reliable source due to their system. however, a good part of the steiner vs meigray comparison isn't very fair. unlike steiner, meigray's system wasn't implemented retroactively; they applied their system to items going forward. steiner on the other hand faced a completely different situation. the yankees dumped 20+ yrs worth of jerseys on them without any sort of records or documentation. meigray didn't have to deal with that. really, the only way to do it would be for an experienced collector to painstakingly go through every single item, one at a time, armed with a roster/trade reference, and go through each piece looking for previous numbers, patches, armbands and put each puzzle together. steiner doesn't have that sort of expertise. (i am curious what meigray would do if the rangers had dumped 20+ yrs worth of jerseys on them without records or documentation. would barry go through hundreds of pieces, one by one? i'd be willing to bet his error rate would increase in such a scenario. it's a different ballgame when you can devise a good system, put it into effect, and then sell only those jerseys that have gone through the system. that said, aside from dealing with old stock, i'd like to know if steiner has done anything to address these issues going forward with 2006+ jerseys. hologram stickers and a lack of unique, trackable id's aren't going to cut it.)
it seems that steiner simply looks at the year tag and looks at a roster and tries to associate any name with that number. there's little analysis. there's no examining previous numbers, patches, or even game use. ordinarily, i wouldn't think this to be a big deal. i think if steiner had simply come out and said "we have a ton of jerseys from the last 20 yrs. no clue what any of it is so don't ask. each jersey is $150. go nuts everyone", then i don't think anyone would complain about these issues. however, i think collectors are frustrated with steiner for their lack of accuracy because of the prices steiner charges. i think people figure that if they're paying a premium price then they should get premium service. i have to agree. unfortunately, steiner decides to charge a premium price and then leaves it up to the buyer to do all the legwork.

as for the "if it came from the yankees as a game used jersey, then it's a game used jersey" comment, it's obviously rubbish. reminds me of when ami sold a dubious arod glove and when questioned about it moreno said "it came from arod. who am i to question arod?". it's a braindead response.
however, if you don't have the expertise to really answer these questions, then it's the only kind of response you can give. it's the same sort of response ami has on every single issue; "lou says it's good". a useless reponse but when you don't have any expertise what else can you really say?

rudy.

[Eric]

Rudy-

I actually think it's slightly more complicated than you are saying. I think there are various divisions within Steiner who operate independently.

The folks who sell the steiner items are different from the ones who handle the auctions.

If you notice, at least with my experience, emailing Bob Malandro (from the sales side) can get you answers about patches, wear, tagging etc. It'll even get you different photos if you so require.

That doesn't seem to happen with the people who work in the auction side. I get the feeling that it's more of "it is what it is" with the auction people. The sales side seems more than willing to look at the item and get you whatever info you need before committing your cash-ola.

Eric

[allstarsplus]

And, Andrew, I appreciate your posts, but as a hobby veteran and one of the smarter guys in the business, you must agree that the signature and inscription by themselves mean absolutely nothing.

Cheers,
ReidReid - Thanks for calling me one of the smarter guys in the business!!! Here was my quote--Not that you can come to a 100% conclusion with the signature & inscription "2006 Game Used", here's a pic of the front of the jersey.


I was showing that Mariano inscribed it as game used and provided the picture of his sig/inscription---it certainly is never 100% with the athlete's inscription as we have seen before.

I will tell you that I would buy this jersey before those Jeter & ARod "game used" on Mastronet with the Lampson COAs!!!!!!

[allstarsplus]

By the way, it has 2 bidders and is currently at $2,675!!!! Maybe the bidders have it photomatched. lol

[sportscentury]

Andrew,

I'd have to disagree. While I think the Lampson letters are worth zip, I would rather have jerseys that show some wear and are style-matched to in action shots of the players. Clearly, the Steiner Mariano shirt has neither of these attributes. I have not looked closely at the items in the Mastro auction, but if they show some wear and are style-matched, then they are preferable to the Steiner shirt (all other things being equal). With that said, I have no desire to obtain either the Steiner or the Lampson items. Here is a question for you: Is it better to call up Steiner, only to hear: "We have no clue what this is" or to call up Lou, only to hear "This is definitely 100% authentic and game used" no matter what the item is. Sounds like a lose-lose to me. Of course, you know this is a true hypothetical, because it includes being able to call Lou on the phone (though you can always call his boss, Victor, at AMI).

Reid

[kingjammy24]

eric: i understand your point that there may be more knowledge or answers from the sales side than the auction side. (i've never communicated with malandro. my experience with steiner is limited to emailing them via their website and communicating with various sales reps). i still maintain that, even on the sales side, the expertise is lacking and this requires the buyer is to do most of the legwork. i don't feel a potential buyer should have to email them just to get basic info and basic photos. it's nice that malandro can help if asked but why are the photos on the website are sorely lacking and the descriptions abyssmal? there's a 2005 matsui jersey, for example, on their site for $20k. there's only 1 photo of the back. the description is nothing but the usual nonsense that reads like the back of a baseball card. why is a $20k item not presented like a $20k item? how is it that a small operation like authenticgamers.com manages to produce better presentations than an outfit like steiner? again, i believe it goes back to a lack of expertise. if malandro is top-notch then have him take the photos, and have him write the descriptions. whoever is doing it now has no clue. even on the sales side, there were silly mix-ups on the site. a jersey once advertised as a david wells was really a canseco. if the sales side had the expertise, that mixup wouldn't have happened in the first place. they'd know if a gerald williams was also worn by david cone without having to be pushed and prodded by the buyer. i believe the buyer is responsible for doing their due diligence but if steiner is going to charge a 5-star price, then they're required to deliver 5-star service.

rudy.

[JETEFAN]

IN MOST CASES, THE PLAYERS DO NOT SIGN THE JERSEY WHEN IT COMES OFF OF THEIR BACKS, THEY SIGN THEM AT A LATER DATE USUALLY AT A STEINER FACILITY. IT IS SHOVED IN FRONT OF THEM AND THEY ARE TOLD WHAT TO SIGN "GAME USED " ETC. I DOUBT THEY QUESTION OR EVEN KNOW THEMSELVES THE WHO, WHAT WHEN AND WHERE OF THE JERSEY THEY ARE SIGNING !!!!!:rolleyes:

GEORGE

[allstarsplus]

George - I am sure you are right as to how the jersey was signed.

Rudy & Reid & Eric - I will share my conversation from last week when I unloaded on Bob Malandro as he is my game used contact at Steiner. When I saw those self described game used Jeter & ARod jerseys/pants on Mastronet w/ Lampson LOA, I called Bob in frustration that Steiner has no system to protect the integrity of the items.

As most of you know, Steiner sold game issued jerseys & pants of Jeter & ARod and other players with a flimsy un-numbered hologram that can be flicked off, rolled around in the back yard, run through the washer and then sent to unsuspecting buyers as premium game used.

Steiner should share in the blame that there has been so many trumped up Yankee gamers because they didn't & still haven't introduced a way to permanently mark and protect the integrity of game used & game issued.

I told Bob they have to come up with a numbered hologram system that is attached with a DNA marker or some other system.

Let's hope we see some improvement from Steiner. Bob Malandro does the best he can do inside of a system that needs a new strategy. Steiner has a virtual monopoly on the game Yankee & Mets items so they have a responsibility to protect the integrity.

Bob says they know who bought the bulk of the 2005 Jeter, Matsui, ARod game issued 2005 jerseys and pants so the first step would be to "out" this person and report him/her to the authorities! That will be the first step in restoring the integrity!!!!

[sportscentury]

George - I am sure you are right as to how the jersey was signed.

Rudy & Reid & Eric - I will share my conversation from last week when I unloaded on Bob Malandro as he is my game used contact at Steiner. When I saw those self described game used Jeter & ARod jerseys/pants on Mastronet w/ Lampson LOA, I called Bob in frustration that Steiner has no system to protect the integrity of the items.

As most of you know, Steiner sold game issued jerseys & pants of Jeter & ARod and other players with a flimsy un-numbered hologram that can be flicked off, rolled around in the back yard, run through the washer and then sent to unsuspecting buyers as premium game used.

Steiner should share in the blame that there has been so many trumped up Yankee gamers because they didn't & still haven't introduced a way to permanently mark and protect the integrity of game used & game issued.

I told Bob they have to come up with a numbered hologram system that is attached with a DNA marker or some other system.

Let's hope we see some improvement from Steiner. Bob Malandro does the best he can do inside of a system that needs a new strategy. Steiner has a virtual monopoly on the game Yankee & Mets items so they have a responsibility to protect the integrity.

Bob says they know who bought the bulk of the 2005 Jeter, Matsui, ARod game issued 2005 jerseys and pants so the first step would be to "out" this person and report him/her to the authorities! That will be the first step in restoring the integrity!!!!

Andrew,

Thanks for your note. Honestly, I have no idea whether those shirts with Lou's letters are worn or not. I have no faith in the Steiner system whatsoever, so while I believe that it is possible that they are Steiner-sold game issued shirts, I think it is entirely possible that they are gamers that Steiner never got. The majority of the evidence suggests that Steiner has little idea as to what they're doing.

Reid

[allstarsplus]

Andrew,

Thanks for your note. Honestly, I have no idea whether those shirts with Lou's letters are worn or not. I have no faith in the Steiner system whatsoever, so while I believe that it is possible that they are Steiner-sold game issued shirts, I think it is entirely possible that they are gamers that Steiner never got. The majority of the evidence suggests that Steiner has little idea as to what they're doing.

Reid Reid - When hobby veterans like you have "no faith" in the Yankees-Steiner system, it should be a sign to Steiner that they need to wake up and take a hard look at their current system.

As you state, yes there is a possibility that there are gamers that Steiner never got, but Bob Malandro would tell you that those chances are very remote.

My own theory is very simple. You have perfectly tagged gamers that don't get used that Steiner sells properly as "game issued". They also sold game issued jersey blanks. Since the Yankees don't put names on the back of their jerseys, a dealer throws a #2 or #13 on the back and you now have a Jeter or ARod. We would have to be naive to think that there are all these legitimate "light use" perfectly tagged game used jerseys of Jeter and ARod out there without Yankees-Steiner documentation.

This was the available inventory list from earlier in 2006 which now the choice sizes are all SOLD OUT!!!! Where did they all go?????

200511951520000S38 Size 38 2005 Game Issued Road Jersey
200511951520000S42 Size 42 2005 Game Issued Road Jersey
200511951420000S44 Size 44 2005 Game Issued Home Jersey
2005119515200000S46 Size 46 2005 Game Issued Road Jersey
2005119514200000S48 Size 48 2005 Game Issued Home Jersey
200511951520000S48 Size 48 2005 Game Issued Road Jersey
200511951520000S50 Size 50 2005 Game Issued Road Jersey
200511951520000S52 Size 52 2005 Game Issued Road Jersey

[sportscentury]

As you state, yes there is a possibility that there are gamers that Steiner never got, but Bob Malandro would tell you that those chances are very remote.


Andrew,

I am absolutely certain that you are correct that this would be Bob's/Steiner's position.

Thanks for your notes and info.

Reid

[CollectGU]

Andrew,

so while I believe that it is possible that they are Steiner-sold game issued shirts, I think it is entirely possible that they are gamers that Steiner never got. The majority of the evidence suggests that Steiner has little idea as to what they're doing.

Reid


Reid,

I would think that given the fact that you have sold and also own and are looking to sell game worn yankee jerseys post 2000 without Steiner paperwork (Clemens and Arod) that this would be your position simply to protect your investments in these jerseys.

Regards,
Dave