2013 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting Discussion

[commando]

Dale Murphy, Bernie Williams and Kenny Lofton officially get the axe. Mike Piazza, a twelve-time All-Star, ten-time Gold Glove Winner, 1993 Rookie of the Year and generally the greatest catcher of the past 25 years, doesn't make the cut. Good guy and 3,000 hits clubber Craig Biggio will also have to wait.

Boy, the Hall of Fame festivities this year are going to be exciting, as they induct three guys who were born in the 1800s.

Bravo.

[earlywynnfan]

I personally am stunned by the fact they kept Piazza out.

I know there are a lot of Biggo fans out there, and yes, the man accumulated 3000 hits, and yes, my auto'd BB and GU bat will increase in value if he makes it, but I don't think anyone, EVER, said "There is a HOFer" when he walked by.

Ken

[godwulf]

Boy, the Hall of Fame festivities this year are going to be exciting, as they induct three guys who were born in the 1800s.

Well, if nothing else, it will be be exciting for their parents.

[Jags Fan Dan]

They should just close the current hall to any further inductions and open a new group called "Hall of Modern-Day Baseball Accomplishments" and enshrine whoever is voted in based on on-field performance, regardless of PED use or whatever.

[gingi79]

Well, if nothing else, it will be be exciting for their parents.

Now that's funny

[ahuff]

I personally am stunned by the fact they kept Piazza out.

I know there are a lot of Biggo fans out there, and yes, the man accumulated 3000 hits, and yes, my auto'd BB and GU bat will increase in value if he makes it, but I don't think anyone, EVER, said "There is a HOFer" when he walked by.

Ken


I beg to differ....i do agree that I cant recall too many people discussing Biggio as a HOFer but I have been on his bandwagon. He deserves it more than many inductees of recent years. In an era that screams a need for enshrinement of guys not affiliated with PED's I think Biggio makes a prime example of who should go in. He has at least one of the magic numbers, has not been associated with ped's that I am aware of, and was a great player. Ive said this before...I dont believe Jim Rice should have been a HOFer...but once you put him in I think the door should have been opened for many more players. I never once heard anyone say...there goes a HOFer about Rice either. But Im not from the NE either...im sure there were many that did.

[Mark17]

I dont believe Jim Rice should have been a HOFer...but once you put him in I think the door should have been opened for many more players.


I totally disagree. They shouldn't base future selections on the lowest common denominator of who got in before. Look at Joe Tinker for example. A career .262 hitter with only 1686 hits, who hit .235 in 4 World Series. The man is in the Hall because someone wrote a poem about him, and his infield teammates. If you use Tinker as your standard, Biggio should make the Hall twice.

[coxfan]

Yankee fans should be happy with the induction of Jacob Ruppert, the far-sighted owner who bought Babe Ruth, and began the dynasty of the Yankees. Ruppert understood how to build a team by outspending others, and then using that team's success to make more money to continue the outspending, etc.

Ruppert informally outbid other clubs to buy Ruth, with the money he paid the Red Sox nearly as much as some team's entire payrolls in that day. The Red Sox owner said he needed the funds to bring in more new players; the story about his stage play losing money is probably not accurate. I suspect that Ruppert was more willing to put up with Ruth's wild ways and keep him happy, ultimately by paying him an astronomical salary in those days of the Depression and the Reserve Clause when even stars had salary cuts.

Ruth ended his career as a Boston Brave when the Yankees ruthlessly let him go (Pardon the pun). Thus, when Aaron hit his 715th, he broke a record set by a Brave (Since Ruth hit his 714th as a Brave.)

[godwulf]

I totally disagree. They shouldn't base future selections on the lowest common denominator of who got in before.

Very true. Playing stats aside, I always think about Ty Cobb's character - his extreme, violent racism, in particular - and consider that in our time he wouldn't be allowed to play, let alone have any chance at the HoF, and I'm sure that he's not the only Hall inductee of whom that is true. Whether you're talking about numbers or off-the-field behavior, every era, every decade has its own ethos. Baseball writers, with a few exceptions, are human beings and subject to the same sentimentality, cultural influences and blind spots as the rest of us.

[ahuff]

I totally disagree. They shouldn't base future selections on the lowest common denominator of who got in before. Look at Joe Tinker for example. A career .262 hitter with only 1686 hits, who hit .235 in 4 World Series. The man is in the Hall because someone wrote a poem about him, and his infield teammates. If you use Tinker as your standard, Biggio should make the Hall twice.


I agree n disagree with this, and I love your Tinker analogy. However, that is what they have been doing for years and thus setting up "Magic Numbers". I used Rice because I don't believe he has any of the magic numbers, and yet was inducted. But I don't want to get sidetracked. My point was this:

Baseball has now entered a period where the debate is "this guy has the magic numbers, but do we put him into the HOF due to his affiliation with PEDs". Yet, they don't put a guy like Biggio in. Why? An earlier post mentioned no one ever said their goes Biggio a HOFer. I think "why not a HOFer". He is in the 3000 hit club and is the only one not in that is not either active or being punished for various offenses.

[helf35]

To me the fact that baseball was segregated for so long should and continue to taint the previous era. Today's players used drugs to make them better and the earlier era left the best players off the field to make them better.

[coxfan]

Some excellent points have been made so far in the various posts. I'll add one more regarding the biases held by HOF voters. I'm sure that players who played for NY teams and for winning teams get favored over players (like Biggio) who didn't get the media exposure, even where their talent and performance may have been equivalent to some who played on more glamorous, high-profile teams.

In my decades as a fan, I recall questions being raised in the past even about such strong candidates as Nolan Ryan and Phil Niekro, because they played on less glamorous teams. ( Which affects the won-loss records of pitchers, if they aren't on "dynasty" clubs with HOF hitters in their lineup to give them run support.)

[earlywynnfan]

I beg to differ....i do agree that I cant recall too many people discussing Biggio as a HOFer but I have been on his bandwagon. He deserves it more than many inductees of recent years. In an era that screams a need for enshrinement of guys not affiliated with PED's I think Biggio makes a prime example of who should go in. He has at least one of the magic numbers, has not been associated with ped's that I am aware of, and was a great player. Ive said this before...I dont believe Jim Rice should have been a HOFer...but once you put him in I think the door should have been opened for many more players. I never once heard anyone say...there goes a HOFer about Rice either. But Im not from the NE either...im sure there were many that did.

I'm not a huge Rice fan, but I don't consider him a mistake. He was the most feared slugger in the AL of his era. Kinda like Albert Belle, with less baggage. If Belle didn't get hurt, he'd probably be in, too, despite the fact that he was a one-dimensional Class-A jerk.

How about this: game on the line, your closer is in, who scares you more: Jim Rice or Craig Biggio?

Not being argumentative, just wondering, who are the "many" recent inductees that you'd put behind Biggio?

Ken

PS: I have participated in a handful of these HOF threads in the last year or so. Every time I tout Piazza, I hear crickets. Can someone please tell me why he isn't in??

[Mark17]

I agree n disagree with this, and I love your Tinker analogy. However, that is what they have been doing for years and thus setting up "Magic Numbers". I used Rice because I don't believe he has any of the magic numbers, and yet was inducted. But I don't want to get sidetracked. My point was this:

Baseball has now entered a period where the debate is "this guy has the magic numbers, but do we put him into the HOF due to his affiliation with PEDs". Yet, they don't put a guy like Biggio in. Why? An earlier post mentioned no one ever said their goes Biggio a HOFer. I think "why not a HOFer". He is in the 3000 hit club and is the only one not in that is not either active or being punished for various offenses.

I agree and think Biggio should be in the Hall. My point is that you put him there because he had 3,000 hits, 400+ stolen bases, and a surprising 291 home runs. and was very versatile (catcher to Gold Glove second baseman to center field is about as versatile as it gets.) Not because he has better numbers than Nellie Fox.

What bothers me just as much is when a guy is a clear, obvious Hall of Famer, but they make him wait a few years before putting him in. Harmon Killebrew. Did anyone seriously think he was NOT a Hall of Fame player? Yet he had to wait a few years before they elected him to the Hall. What stupidity. All that accomplished was delaying the inevitable, and embarrassing one of the nicest, best role models the game has known.