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JETEFAN
11-21-2006, 10:17 PM
Have to vent !!!!:mad:

Jeter vs. Morneau
Jeter 22 points better BA, 42 points better on base Pct. 58 points better with runners in scoring position, Jeter also had more Hits, Runs, Doubles and stolen bases than Morneau.

Defense:
Jeter- Gold Glove
Morneau- NOT

Did I miss something????? :confused: WOW I feel better......:p

staindsox
11-22-2006, 12:38 AM
Morneau hit over .360 from the break 34 HR 130 RBI .559 SLG and he didn't have the same bats behind him in the lineup. He is why the Twins made the playoffs. The Yankees would have either way. Morneau was my pick.

allstarsplus
11-22-2006, 08:44 AM
Did I miss something You didn't miss anything. Mourneau does not do well under pressure also. He is from Canada so when he plays in Canada he chokes as he had 1 hit vs. Toronto. Could you imagine if he played for a NY team? Jeter is clutch under pressure.

Mourneau was an All Star player last year and did deserve MVP votes, but this was certainly Jeter's year.

Now let me vent about Ryan Zimmerman not winning the NL Rookie of the Year. Some people thought David Ortiz was Mr. Clutch with the walk-off HRs....but Zimmerman led ALL major leaguers with Hits w/ Runners in Scoring Position and had 5 walk-off RBIs. He had 9th inning HRs/hits vs. the best in the game including Billy Wagner, Chien Ming-Wang, Mariano Rivera, Armando Benitez, and Joe Borowski. On top of that 120 RBIs as he was the only Rookie with over 100 RBIs!!!!

Fine, Hanley Ramirez who won the ROY had a .292 vs. .287 Batting Average and more runs scored and more stolen bases, but look at runs produced then (RBI + Runs Scored) and Ryan Zimmerman smoked him at 194 vs. 178.

Many writers got it right as it was a close vote, but some writers just missed the clutch aspect and runs produced which besides defense is key to winning games. Zim was also Mr. Web Gem too!

Unfortunately you only have 1 shot at a Rookie of the Year. Hopefully both these guys will have the oppportunity to win MVP in the future.

chicagoglen
11-22-2006, 09:12 AM
Jeter is soooooo over rated. Mourneau had my vote as well.

I personally thought it should have been in the following order.

Mourneau
Dye
Jeter
Thomas
Ortiz

sylbry
11-22-2006, 10:00 AM
I just don't think Yankee fans can grasp the concept that a guy who made only $385,000 can be an MVP. :D

JETEFAN
11-22-2006, 10:04 AM
Jeter is soooooo over rated. Mourneau had my vote as well.

I personally thought it should have been in the following order.

Mourneau
Dye
Jeter
Thomas
Ortiz

Over rated is when you do not perform to the hype...Jeter overated, no way. He has been performing to the hype since day 1. Along with Ortiz, Jeter is on of the most clutch players in the game!! The best playoff performer in the game by far, offense and defense. Morneau has had one good 1/2 season in his career. Jeter consistant since 1996!!!!:D

JETEFAN
11-22-2006, 10:07 AM
I just don't think Yankee fans can grasp the concept that a guy who made only $385,000 can be an MVP. :D

$385,000 seems fair when you you only show up for 1/2 the season!!:eek:

richpick
11-22-2006, 03:20 PM
I believe Jeter is suffering from the fact that AROD won the MVP last year and that the Yankees with that huge payroll have not won a World Series for how long?

rose14
11-22-2006, 04:26 PM
Jeter is a good player, but you take Jeter away from the Yankees and put him on the Royals or Rockies and see what kind of stats that he has. Jeter is surrounded by some of the best talent in baseball every year. I will give Jeter his props, he comes up big when the game is on the line.

allstarsplus
11-22-2006, 04:49 PM
Jeter is a good player, but you take Jeter away from the Yankees and put him on the Royals or Rockies and see what kind of stats that he has. Jeter is surrounded by some of the best talent in baseball every year. I will give Jeter his props, he comes up big when the game is on the line.

You can't score many runs if nobody knocks you in and you can't drive in many runs if nobody is on base so your point with the Royals is valid, but Jeter would do great on the Rockies! He would hit 10 more HRs there! Now he couldn't win a MVP at either place because the voters want you to be on a Playoff team to win a MVP.....

Now back to the Twins, they had Mauer lead the league in batting average at .347 and was a MVP candidate, Luis Castillo an All Star 2nd baseman at .296 and Tyner and Bartlett both batted over .300 with in addition Torii Hunter who had an off year with 98 RBIs and 31 HRs.

In my opinion, I think for most of the season that Morneau had more coverage around him than Jeter did with all the Yankee injuries! Morneau batted in the 5 hole with guys on base with Torii Hunter in the on-deck circle!

Both excellent players, but Jeter got robbed!!!

staindsox
11-22-2006, 07:04 PM
Come on, Jeter was not robbed. Morneau put the Twins in the playoffs. And for the record, Jeter's gold glove isn't deserved. His range is crap. SABR measures this statistically. If you look at the number of balls he fields over the course of a season, it has typically far less than other shortstops. Over the course of a week, there could be a variance depending on how often the ball is hit to you, but over the course of the season, it averages out. He won the gold glove because of his popularity. If anyone were to ever be robbed, it would never be Jeter. He is far too popular. Why can't anyone be big enough to give Morneau credit. Jeter had a great season, but Morneau is the MVP.

Yankwood
11-22-2006, 07:46 PM
As the nickname Yankwood might imply, I am a lifelong Yankee fan, which goes back to the mid 1960's. My opinion, for whatever weight that carries, is that a case can be made for both players, as well as a few more. We all like to think out favorites were the "best" and I too was hoping that Derek Jeter would win the award. Had he won, I'm sure we Yankee fans would have had to "defend" this selection against the cries of angry Yankee haters. This is pretty much common practice and has formed a tough hide in most of us. However, this is what makes the game fun. For over a hundred years, friendships have formed and even flourished in the face of so-called heated debates concerning our teams that we choose early in life. And if the arguments between fans of teams and players were not enough, the SABRmetricians and "traditionalists" have locked horns. These make for interesting discussions and arguments that never really get settled once our minds are made up but as time goes by and we get a little older we realize that the heated discussions of today get lost in the shuffle of all the debates of the past once a new season begins.
I have no problem with Morneau's selection. His team was wallowing early in the year as he struggled close to the .200 mark, however as he heated up so did his team. Fans of Johan Santana make the same claim. On the other hand, Jeter, I believe held his team together through many injuries, overall suspect pitching and also in the face of A-Rod's less than stellar production, especially in the clutch. This can debated too, however, it is the way I saw the season unfold. Jermaine Dye, David Ortiz, Johan Santana, Frank Thomas, et al. all had fabulous seasons and I'm sure the fans of the White Sox, the A's, the Twins, Red Sox, Yankees, etc. all have different opinions. The trick here, though, is to listen when the other one is talking because if the same players we speak in favor of switched uniforms, our "opinions" might become radically different. This is why we are called "fans", which is short for "fanatics". Fanaticism knows no logic.

sylbry
11-22-2006, 08:01 PM
Yes, Morneau had a lousy start to his season, just like his team. Starting at the end of June, Morneau put together a MONSTER season, which none of the other candidates could come close to matching. In the end he had a very fine season. So did Jeter.

The Twins would NOT have made it to the playoffs without him (or Santana or Mauer for that matter.) They played in, and won THE HARDEST division in baseball against two of the best teams in the game in 2006. Unlike the Twins, the Yankees would have very likely made the playoffs without Jeter as they played in much less competitive division (sorry Jays and Red Sox fans.) Therefore Morneau was much more valuable to his team than Jeter.

As far as Jeter being clutch and Morneau not, ask yourself what did Jeter do that was clutch in 2006? Nothing I can think of. In fact he choked on the last day of the season when he had a chance to win the batting title.

Jeter and Jeter fans should just be content with the two awards he didn't deserve to win, the Hank Aaron award and a Gold Glove.

sylbry
11-22-2006, 08:08 PM
[quote=allstarsplus;26430]Now back to the Twins, they had Mauer lead the league in batting average at .347 and was a MVP candidate, Luis Castillo an All Star 2nd baseman at .296 and Tyner and Bartlett both batted over .300 with in addition Torii Hunter who had an off year with 98 RBIs and 31 HRs.[quote]

Tyner and Bartlett are bench players. The Twins lineup is not exactly Giambi, Cabrera, A-Rod, Cano, Damon, and Posada. (Ignoring Abreu, Sheffield and Matsui who only played part of the season for the Yankees.)

JETEFAN
11-22-2006, 10:43 PM
Morneau hit 226, 271, and 239 his first 3 years and has had only 1/2 of a decent season since he came up. To even try to compare or imply that he is a more valuable player to his team than Jeter is insane!! Like Shakira say's hips, I mean numbers, plays, flips, dives and midnight homers don't lie!!!!:D :D :D The views expressed are not necessarily (But probably are!!) the views of this forum or it's members.

sylbry
11-22-2006, 11:35 PM
1) It is the 2006 MVP award. What Morneau or Jeter did in the past HAS NO MEANING on this year's voting.

2) Don't try to speak for everyone on the forum. They can speak for themselves if they wish.

both-teams-played-hard
11-23-2006, 12:46 AM
I like these non-memorabilia threads. They're kinda like the office Christmas party. You see where co-workers are coming from and just what they're thinking...
Jeter deserves the MVP, for the sole reason as I have never heard of this other guy. Don't shoot me...I'm just a collector!

thome25.com
11-23-2006, 01:40 AM
I cannot figure out how anybody would suggest Jeter held anything together this year, especially considering the time he and A-rod colided and Jeter gave a dirty look of disgust, walking away as the ball lay on the ground.. Not exactly what you are looking for out of your club-house leader... Pick the players up while they are down, don't pile on.... Jeter is a media darling. He is a great player but certainly receives more praise than somebody of the same skill set playing for a small market club... Gold glove? Not sure I agree with that one either... I could easily suggest Hafner had more value to his club than Jeter did... Look at the numbers between the 2 of them.

cjw
11-23-2006, 10:12 AM
Being a die-hard Jays fan, it is easy to dump on the Yankees. But I don't have to let my personal loyalties cloud my judgement in this case...because looking at the numbers and the way Morneau helped power the Twins through the tough Central division.....he takes the MVP in my book.

JETEFAN
11-23-2006, 01:08 PM
Being a die-hard Jays fan, it is easy to dump on the Yankees. But I don't have to let my personal loyalties cloud my judgement in this case...because looking at the numbers and the way Morneau helped power the Twins through the tough Central division.....he takes the MVP in my book.

Let's look at the numbers!!!

Jeter vs. Morneau
Jeter was 22 points better BA, 42 points better on base Pct. 58 points better with runners in scoring position, Jeter also had more Hits, Runs, Doubles and stolen bases than Morneau. For a guy hitting in the number 2 spot, these numbers are awsome!!!!

eGameUsed
11-23-2006, 04:14 PM
The numbers are actually irrelevant in my opinion. 22 points in BA results in 12 or 13 more hits in a year, over a course of 162 games. That is 0.08 more hits per game. 42 points in OBP is because there are 4 to 5 HOF caliber players batting before or after you, which results in a more cautious approach by opposing pitchers. 58 points with runners in scoring percentage. Again, more base runners ahead of you, that numbers goes up. The stats are important, but if you have more to work with, then you are going to succeed more often. Morneau was a team leader, young, and was on a team that was an "underdog." Because of this, I think the voters thought Jeter and Morneau had similar enough stats to make the stats a wash and statistically irrelevant for purposes of choosing.

The important part, and was obvious in the voting, was which player was the most valuable to their respective team to help that team succeed (and therefore make the playoffs). I don't see how any Yankee can ever win the MVP Award as long as there is a guy like Morneau that helps a team as much as he did.

I really don't care who wins the AL Award every year. My vote doesn't count, nor does anyone else on this forum, but as long as the Yankees are the highest payroll in the MLB, and until the Yankees get more votes that any other organization, people will always go with the unexpected star of the season. Jeter is expected to perform well every year. Just my unbiased opinion.

Why don't we talk about why Roy Oswalt didn't get at least 2nd place in the NL Cy Young Award balloting.
:mad:

earlywynnfan
11-24-2006, 12:26 AM
This takes me back to Cleveland's favorite son, Albert Belle. Say what you want about him (and we can say plenty), but the guy was an offensive beast of a player.

Remember back, he carried the team, back when Manny was an infant? They were just starting to get good, and he was by far the superstud of the team, and he carried them to victory practically by himself. But, and this may shock you, he was also a prize A-hole, and ticked the media off every chance he got. So the media gave the MVP to someone else (Juan Gone? I'm too lazy to research it.) They said that he didn't have the numbers to be MVP.

The very next year he put up a monster season (50 HR and 50 doubles is HUGE.) So what did the media do? Give the award to someone else, saying how the team could have won without him, how it's not an award for best offensive player, but the player that a team absolutely couldn't do without.

Personally, I think that monstorous numbers are great, but they don't make you most valuable.

Ken

thome25.com
11-24-2006, 12:42 AM
EarlyWynnfan, right on the money about Belle. Actually it was 1995 when he put up 50/50 and yet the award went to Mo in Boston. (Cleveland swept Boston in the palyoffs, I think Mo ans Jose went hitless in the series) There has not been a greater mishandling of the award since...

allstarsplus
11-30-2006, 10:09 AM
Snubbed Pujols says MVP should be on playoff team

Associated Press


SANTO DOMINGO, Dominican Republic -- Albert Pujols (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6619) thinks he was snubbed.

The St. Louis Cardinals (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=stl)' slugger is upset he lost out to Philadelphia's Ryan Howard (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7437) for the National League MVP award, saying Wednesday the honor should go to someone on a playoff team.


"I see it this way: Someone who doesn't take his team to the playoffs doesn't deserve to win the MVP," Pujols said in Spanish at a news conference organized by the Dominican Republic's sports ministry.
Pujols led the Cardinals to the NL Central title this year and their first World Series championship since 1982. Howard and the Phillies missed the playoffs -- though they won two more regular-season games than St. Louis.

The Dominican-born Pujols batted .331 with 49 home runs and 137 RBI, while Howard hit .313 with 58 homers and 149 RBI.

Howard got 20 first-place votes for MVP and 388 points in balloting by a panel of the Baseball Writers' Association of America. Pujols received 12 first-place votes and 347 points. Voting is conducted before the postseason.

Pujols, the 2005 NL MVP, said he has bigger dreams -- a spot in the National Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, N.Y. The BBWAA also votes for the Hall of Fame.

"It is still early, but it is a dream I have," Pujols said. "My hope is that in good time I will have sufficient numbers to get to Cooperstown."
Pujols praised several moves the Cardinals have made this offseason, including signing second baseman Adam Kennedy (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6318) and pitcher Kip Wells (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6301). The slugger noted that his club had been hoping to land fellow Dominican star Alfonso Soriano (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6154), who instead agreed to a $136 million deal with the Chicago Cubs (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=chn).

"I thought we were going to sign Soriano, but it wasn't possible. We also intended to trade for him during the season, but the Nationals wanted too much for him," Pujols said.

Copyright 2006 by The Associated Press

cjclong
11-30-2006, 11:43 AM
With regrad to the MVP there are almost always differences of opinion. I thought Jeter deserved it this year for a number of the reasons already mentioned. If you look at Jeter's numbers in the World Series he 's been in they show he plays as well or better under pressure than he does during the course of a regular season. After all the times he's gotten big hits and made big plays when the playoffs or World Series were on the line to say he "chocked" in not getting the hits to win the batting title on the last day of the season is ridiculous. If not getting a hit, even in a key situation on an occasional basis, is chocking most ballplayers "choke" 65 to 70 percent of the time since few players hit much above .300 (7 outs in 10 at bats iis chocking?) Jeter helped keep the Yankees together when they had key players out with injuries, ARod was inconsistent most of the year and the pitching except for Wang and Rivera was often incosistent. He played well all year and helped keep the Yankees in the race at a time the could have fallen out. And if he and ARod aren't the gretest friends then neither Ruth or Gehrig could be considered an MVP or team leader because they had a time of mutual coolness. Finally, if a player has been a potential MVP for years I think it should count for something in considering the award when the MVP race is close and a newcomer like Morneau is involved unless the newcomer's statistics and play were so exceptional they clearly overshadow the longtime vlauable player. Morneau's weren't .

sylbry
11-30-2006, 07:03 PM
With regrad to the MVP there are almost always differences of opinion. I thought Jeter deserved it this year for a number of the reasons already mentioned. If you look at Jeter's numbers in the World Series he 's been in they show he plays as well or better under pressure than he does during the course of a regular season. After all the times he's gotten big hits and made big plays when the playoffs or World Series were on the line to say he "chocked" in not getting the hits to win the batting title on the last day of the season is ridiculous.

This is the 2006 MVP award. Not a lifetime acheivement award. Look at his numbers in the World Series? He hasn't been in a World Series since 2001. That would be highly irrelevant.


Jeter helped keep the Yankees together when they had key players out with injuries, ARod was inconsistent most of the year and the pitching except for Wang and Rivera was often incosistent. He played well all year and helped keep the Yankees in the race at a time the could have fallen out. And if he and ARod aren't the gretest friends then neither Ruth or Gehrig could be considered an MVP or team leader because they had a time of mutual coolness.

Yep, Jeter is the leader of the team. No doubt about it. Just like Morneau was the leader of the Twins. Ask any Twins player. Why should Jeter get extra credit for being the leader of the Yankees?

Don't kid yourself, the Yankees were not about to fall out of the playoff race. Their division wasn't nearly as competitive as the AL Central.


Finally, if a player has been a potential MVP for years I think it should count for something in considering the award when the MVP race is close and a newcomer like Morneau is involved unless the newcomer's statistics and play were so exceptional they clearly overshadow the longtime vlauable player. Morneau's weren't .

Yearly potential MVP players have their place, it is called the hall of fame.

staindsox
11-30-2006, 08:05 PM
sylbry...that was an absolutely perfect response.

sylbry
11-30-2006, 08:42 PM
I don't mean to diminish Jeter's season or career in any way. He had a great season and has had an even better career. Morneau would be lucky to have half the success Jeter has had.

However, in 2006 the writer's saw Morneau had an arguably better season and the greater effect on his teams ability to win. The only person Jeter, the Yankee organization, and Yankee fans have to blame for Jeter not winning the MVP is Jeter himself simply because he didn't do enough and left doubt in over half of the writer's heads as to who the most valuable ballplayer was in the AL.

Just don't say he got robbed. Jeter was a worthy candidate. In fact he was a deserving candidate, but so was Morneau. Being seen as a very close second most valuable player in the AL isn't so bad. They just don't give out a trophy for that.

cjclong
12-01-2006, 12:11 PM
Maybe I didn't articulate it well but my remarks about Jeter in the division series and world series weren't intended to be a reason why he should have been named MVP. They were a response to the accusation he "chocked" when he didn't get the hits to win the batting title the last day of the season. When a player like Jeter who has produced over the years in clutch situations makes an out it isn't because he chocked but because nobody bats 1.000 At sometime or other every player, no matter how great, makes the last out to end a game, whether its Musial, Mays or Mantle. That doesn't make them chockers, just human athletes. Regarding the MVP or an All Star vote I think if you have a close decision between a new comer amd a veteran who has produced for a number of years the tie ought to go to the veteran. That's regardles of what team he plays for or who he is. But that's just my opinion and obviously others may differ as is their right.

sylbry
12-01-2006, 01:54 PM
In order to do what you are proposing you would need to invalidate voter's ballots. Morneau was the clear winner. No argument about it based on the ballots. However since Jeter was close, ballots for Morneau should be invalidated thus giving Jeter the win since he has been around longer and has accomplished more.

By doing that you would destroy the voting process (why vote because it may not count anyways.) That would be like saying the 2004 Ohio presidential vote count doesn't matter because the vote is close and Bush has been around longer (and arguably accomplished more.)

I understand where you are coming from, how can a player who has been so good for so long not win at least one MVP. Since every player starts with an even slate every year it is happening.

I got to say I don't feel bad for him. He is a sure bet hall of famer and has numerous World Series titles. Ask Morneau which he would rather have, a World Series ring or an MVP trophy. I think you know the answer.

cjclong
12-01-2006, 02:29 PM
I'm not saying anybody's ballot should be invalidated. If I had a vote I would look at the years the players had. If one player had clearly out performed the other then that player should win. If a veteran player and a newcomer were essentially tied then I would go with the veteran player. Obviously some of voters didn't use the standard I would or thought that Morneau clearly outperformed Jeter. I don't think that, but its their vote and their decison. Morneau won the award. There is nothing in the rules that says prior service should be considered. That's just my opinion. As I said, others can differ. There have been cases where out of bad judgment or personal anomosity a player who was deserving didn't get a vote. One year when Joe Dimaggio barely edged out Ted Williams for the MVP one voter didn't name Williams at all on his ballot at any level. To have done that almost surrely meant that person disliked Williams. One of the voters put Jeter 6th which seems pretty low. I'm not saying this voter disliked Jeter, but that does seem like a lapse in judgment. To pose a question: Should there be two awards voted by the writers- MVP and Outstanding player. There has always been the question of whether a player on a team that finishes far out of the running can be the MVP. If a team finished last with you, they could finish last without you. In some years the writers might think the Outstanding Player and the MVP were one and the same. In other years different players might win the two awards.

suave1477
12-01-2006, 03:07 PM
I read everyones post here and I find it interesting how members here are not looking at the facts or not realizing the facts.

I did not follow Morneaus season so I am going by what members here have said about him!!!

From what I gather Mourneau had a bad begining of the season and then came back strong at the latter half the season to lead his team to the playoffs, if this is correct??? (THEN HE DESERVES THE COMEBACK PLAYER OF THE YEAR AWARD NOT MVP)

As far as saying Jeter played in a great lineup and the Yankees could have made it with out him to the playoffs is crazy to say either.
What lineup?
Hideki was out hurt
Sheffield was out hurt
Cano was out for 1/3 of the season hurt
Cairo was out for 1/5 of the season hurt
Damon is playing with a broken bone in his foot
Posada is playing with a torn ligament behind one of his knees
Giambi was no where to be found with a .253 BA
Abreu didn't come in to the later part of the season
AROD was non existent unless the Yankees were up by 10

How about Pitching?
WE HAD NONE!!!
Mussina and Wang were good!!!

But lets go through all the bad
Ponson
Lidle
Johnson
Farnsworth
Myers
Beam
Pavano - non existent
Wright - a Joke!!!

Your telling me Jeter carry an ailing team??????

Lets not forget Jeter had something like a 26 Game Hitting Streak!!!

Jeter carried the team for the WHOLE season not HALF

JETER DESERVES THE MVP AWARD HANDS DOWN!!!

sylbry
12-01-2006, 03:30 PM
I read everyones post here and I find it interesting how members here are not looking at the facts or not realizing the facts.

I did not follow Morneaus season so I am going by what members here have said about him!!!

From what I gather Mourneau had a bad begining of the season and then came back strong at the latter half the season to lead his team to the playoffs, if this is correct??? (THEN HE DESERVES THE COMEBACK PLAYER OF THE YEAR AWARD NOT MVP)

As far as saying Jeter played in a great lineup and the Yankees could have made it with out him to the playoffs is crazy to say either.
What lineup?
Hideki was out hurt
Sheffield was out hurt
Cano was out for 1/3 of the season hurt
Cairo was out for 1/5 of the season hurt
Damon is playing with a broken bone in his foot
Posada is playing with a torn ligament behind one of his knees
Giambi was no where to be found with a .253 BA
Abreu didn't come in to the later part of the season
AROD was non existent unless the Yankees were up by 10

How about Pitching?
WE HAD NONE!!!
Mussina and Wang were good!!!

But lets go through all the bad
Ponson
Lidle
Johnson
Farnsworth
Myers
Beam
Pavano - non existent
Wright - a Joke!!!

Your telling me Jeter carry an ailing team??????

Lets not forget Jeter had something like a 26 Game Hitting Streak!!!

Jeter carried the team for the WHOLE season not HALF

JETER DESERVES THE MVP AWARD HANDS DOWN!!!

I don't see any facts in your post. Here are a couple of facts.

Twins won 96 games. Yankees won 97.

Twins won the division by 1 game. Yankees by 10 games.

Combined wins of other teams in their respective divisions: Central = 325, East = 304.

suave1477
12-01-2006, 04:08 PM
I don't see any facts in your post. Here are a couple of facts.

Twins won 96 games. Yankees won 97.

Twins won the division by 1 game. Yankees by 10 games.

Combined wins of other teams in their respective divisions: Central = 325, East = 304.


Twins won 96 Games Yankees won 97 - Exactly Twins didnt do any better

Twins won the division by 1 game Yankees by 10? Yeah not because we got any better but because the Red Sox started playing worse because of there poor pitching - and technically wiining by 10 in my books has always beaten 1

Combined wins I agree it may have been a tad bit harder for the Twins but we werent losing our games gracisouly to the dominant teams we were losing poorly to the bad teams.

I do appreciate you proving my point!!!

As I said before Jeter carried us otherwise we wouldn't have even made as far as we did!!!

staindsox
12-01-2006, 04:27 PM
The Red Sox played worse because they were the most injured team in baseball. At one point, only Loretta and Ortiz were the only two starters still able to play, besides half of the rotation on the staff on the DL. The Sox were twice as injured as the Yankees.

Let's not forget Jeter's indifference in the A-Rod affair. An MVP backs his teammates and pushes and encourages everyone to do their best...Jeter was okay throwing him to the wolves.

If Jeter were truly a team player, he would have moved to third because A-Rod was the best fielding shortstop in the league and it has been statistically proven the Jeter has one of the poorest ranges for a shortstop. That's not an MVP.

cjclong
12-01-2006, 04:44 PM
Why do people keep mentioning ARod and Jeter? What does that have to do with MVP. Is anyone so naive they think all the top players on all the teams like all their teamates. You hear about ARod and Jeter because its New York. If two teamates in Minnesota didn't like each other would we ever hear about it? How many MVP awards has Bonds won amd does he get along with.anyone? And what has Jeter done to ARod that's so terrrible? Name one bad thing he's ever said about him? Can you? You don't have to be everyone's buddy to win. Remember how the Oakland A's had fist fights when Jackson was there. Ruth and Gehrig had a cool relationship for years. Guess neither of them could be MVP? Is there anyone on the team Morneau doesn't like? I don't know and neither do you. Who cares. I've never heard Jeter say anything negative about any teammate. I've heard a lot of other players say negatives about AROD. The big majority of Yankee players would tell you Jeter is a good teamate and a leader. And remember, we're voting for MVP, not miss congeniality.

suave1477
12-01-2006, 04:50 PM
The Red Sox played worse because they were the most injured team in baseball. At one point, only Loretta and Ortiz were the only two starters still able to play, besides half of the rotation on the staff on the DL. The Sox were twice as injured as the Yankees.[/qoute]

I agree with you thats why I said the red Sox were injured badly at the end that is why we were able to take the lead, otherwise we would have to struggle harder to make it.

Let's not forget Jeter's indifference in the A-Rod affair. An MVP backs his teammates and pushes and encourages everyone to do their best...Jeter was okay throwing him to the wolves.

There is no love loss between Jeter or ARod this is nothing new as you are correct in the medias eyes he should have backed up ARod but reality is reality and it's hard to fake liking someone, either way because you like somoene or not should not stop you from winnin an award of how you performed on the field

[qoute]If Jeter were truly a team player, he would have moved to third because A-Rod was the best fielding shortstop in the league and it has been statistically proven the Jeter has one of the poorest ranges for a shortstop. That's not an MVP.

Proving Stats of where ARods position should have been is all well and fine but the debate is over Mourneau and Jeter not Arod.

Arod wasn't anywhere near any votes to be considered for MVP
ARod also was ranked #7 in all of baseball for hitting into a double play!!!

So fielding wasnt good or his hitting!!!

suave1477
12-01-2006, 04:52 PM
By accident I answered Staindsox in the qoute - please read their for my responses and that is my point exactly Cjlong

staindsox
12-01-2006, 04:55 PM
An MVP is the most valuable to their team. Morneau was the team leader and put the team before himself. If Jeter did the same thing, he would have backed A-Rod and would also be playing at 3rd. That is why Morneau is the one holding the MVP award.

cjclong
12-01-2006, 05:02 PM
One more thing. Jeter did win a gold glove. You can argue over whether the best fielder always gets the award, but I've never heard of a bad fielder wining one. If fielding is the test how many gold gloves does Morneau have compared to Jeter? I hear a lot of silence. And its a hell of a lot harder to play shortshop than first base. Never hear of anyone moving from first to shorstop do you? So give up on that one.

suave1477
12-01-2006, 05:02 PM
Well to the best of my knowledge the MVP award meant Most valuble player not Most Valuable to the team.

Since Player would be referring to performance on the field.

NOT MVPT - Most Valuable Player & Teamate

Your trying to justify he didn't get the award because he didn't suck up to the media and give Arod PRAISE, I PRAISE Jeter for not coming out of his face and telling the Media what he really thinks of ARod.

Now that's a LEADER!!!

staindsox
12-01-2006, 05:12 PM
The MVP is the most valuable player, the player the most indespensible, the guy his team could not do without. You don't judge an MVP on stats alone. Standing up for a player isn't sucking up to the media, that's what a team player does. Morneau got the team to gel. Jeter could have too. He has the charisma and clubhouse power to squash any kind conflicts like this, but he didn't and let A-Rod go it alone. The 2006 Yankees should have been more and nobody stepped up and fixed this issue.

cjclong
12-01-2006, 05:18 PM
Again, if the test is everybody's buddy how do you explain all of Barry Bonds MVP's . Different test for him and everyone else? Have you ever heard ANY of Jeter's teammates complain about him. Torre has said that players who come to the Yankees from other teams tell him after being there for a while that they are amazed after watching him play that he is even better than they thought. He leads by example. And the Yankees respect him.

cjclong
12-01-2006, 05:31 PM
So Jeter could have fixed ARod. How? ARod has had problems that go back to Texas and beyond. There are lots of guys who can't make it in New York. If a guy has touble there he's got to handle it himself. Tell the fans not to boo. Jeter is New York wise enough to know the fans are going to do what they want to. Jeter is one of the best liked players the Yankees have ever had and the fans were booing him when he had a bad slump a year or two ago. Guess he doesn't deserve the MVP because he not the psychologist who can fix ARods probems, the same ones he's had since he was in Texas, just magnified on the New York stage. Virtually all the Yankees would say Jeter's a great teammate. These attacks are just getting silly.

staindsox
12-01-2006, 05:55 PM
First of all, this isn't an attack. Jeter is tremendous and will be a first ballot Hall of Famer. Torre isn't the manager of that team, Jeter runs it. If he doesn't like someone, they're gone. The only person in my memory who had more power as a player and how this situation compares is Cal Ripken... and Jeter may even surpass him in influence. Jeter didn't stick up for A-Rod. It's easy to see that they don't like each other that much, but they can't say anything either...that would start a war. Instead of Jeter saying that he's not going to tell the fans who they can and cannot boo, he could have said that A-Rod will come around and if we're going to win, he will play a critical role. A lot of what the media gets is posturing anyway. Giambi took shots at A-Rod, I believe Mussina did, Torre alluded to a few things...Jeter has the power and personna to end anyone...including Torre or management, from bashing a teammate. He would have been my MVP if he did this, but the A-Rod issue was allowed to fester and it never really was addressed once and for all. Jeter is tremendous, but I believe he could have dealt with this differently and stopping the sniping from point #1. I am interested to see what happens with A-Rod next year and how the Yankees handle it. Once again, this is a golden opportunity for Jeter to smooth everything over. I think he could and should use his sway to get the team on the same page and work together. If they do, they will be the team to beat.

sylbry
12-01-2006, 05:56 PM
Twins won 96 Games Yankees won 97 - Exactly Twins didnt do any better

Twins won the division by 1 game Yankees by 10? Yeah not because we got any better but because the Red Sox started playing worse because of there poor pitching - and technically wiining by 10 in my books has always beaten 1

Combined wins I agree it may have been a tad bit harder for the Twins but we werent losing our games gracisouly to the dominant teams we were losing poorly to the bad teams.

I do appreciate you proving my point!!!

As I said before Jeter carried us otherwise we wouldn't have even made as far as we did!!!

Your kidding right? Please tell me your kidding. The Twins won a MUCH TOUGHER division by one game versus the Yankees winning a MUCH WEAKER division by 10. By no stretch of the imagination can you say without Morneau the Twins do not take the division or make the playoffs. You can not say the same for Jeter. The Yankees won the division by 10 games.

Jeter hit .343 with 214 hits compared to Morneau hitting .321 with 190 hits. If Jeter got 24 fewer hits to equal Morneau, rest assured the Yankees are still going to make the playoffs. My point is Morneau's contributions to his team's success far outweighed Jeter's contributions to his teams success. If you can't see that then there is not point in having this discussion.

BULBUS
12-01-2006, 07:22 PM
bottom line......jeter should have been MVP. if he wasnt a yankee, if arod didnt win it last year, jeter would be the mvp. look at the numbers, plain and simple. morneau was a nobody before the second half of the season, and i'm sure he will return to being a nobody in '07. jeter is a better player and had a better season. but it doesnt matter, its an award from a bunch of biased writers. jeter will make the hall without it. most people believe that they got it wrong in both leagues. i am one of them.

staindsox
12-01-2006, 09:38 PM
hey sylbry, what's your email address?

chris
staindsox@hotmail.com

earlywynnfan
12-02-2006, 12:30 PM
I really have to laugh when Yankee fans complain about the media being biased! Come on! Joe DiMaggio is God on earth? Lefty Gomez? Red Ruffing? Rizzuto over Marion and/or Travis?

Throw in Freddie Lindstrom and George Kelly, too. There are 49 other states out there who are tired of hearing about all things New York!!

Ken