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View Full Version : Steiner Sports is out of touch with Reality



JimCaravello
12-15-2005, 09:50 AM
Forum and Universe Members - we have all seen comments on this website about Steiner and how they are marketing their items and the high prices they are charging in the market. I have just had communication with them this morning that blows my mind. Folks at Steiner - I hope you read this so you can change your practices. Yes - you are selling a few items at high prices, but you are also being laughed at by the entire collecting and dealer community as to how you are pricing items and your lack of knowledge at what you are selling.

Last night, there were some Bobby Murcer pants in auction that had an opening bid of $250. Since Murcer jerseys are almost impossible, I had planned on bidding on these pants. $250 was really more than I wanted to pay - but in today's world - probably not too bad a price. They were home pinstripes from 1979. Well, I had a Christmas party to attend last night and I thought the auction would still be going when I came home, but it had ended. I sent an e-mail to Steiner last night asking that if the pants had not sold, I would be interested in them. Also - if they were available, would they consider reducing the price since they did not sell. I recently bought a pair of pants from them that they offered to me - unsolicited at $200 and I said no - and ultimately we agreed upon $100, so I thought they might consider selling the Murcer pants for less if they were not bid on last night.

The e-mail response I received this morning was unbelievable. Yes - the pants were available, but they were now $1,500. Apparently, the $250 opening bid was a "Special" and now that the..."Special".... was over, the pants were $1,500. I told them in a nice way that they could keep the pants. They sent another e-mail justifying the $1,500 and once again I said keep them - and please wake up and smell the coffee .......Steiner - are you listening!!! WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!!!

Guys - Am I missing something here????

Eric
12-15-2005, 10:07 AM
They sent another e-mail justifying the $1,500

How did they justify it exactly?
Eric

JimCaravello
12-15-2005, 10:10 AM
Eric - their only justification was that the ......"Special" was over. Folks - I am not complaining - I am really not. I am not trying to criticize these folks. They have great stuff - but some times people in this hobby just wear you out and its very frustrating!!

ChrisCavalier
12-15-2005, 11:32 AM
Apparently, the $250 opening bid was a "Special" and now that the..."Special".... was over, the pants were $1,500.

Guys - Am I missing something here????

Hello Jim-

As an FYI, this is perfectly logical in what Jerry Seinfeld refers to as "bizarro world". Basically, in "bizarro world" it makes perfect sense to present an item to your entire database of customers at a given price. Then, when you have established that every one of your customers thinks that price is too high, you raise the price to 600% of the price at which you originally offered the item when someone who is interested inquires about it.

I'm sorry you have never heard of "bizarro world". However, now that you have you may understand a number of business practices that are being exercised in the market.

Hope that helps.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier

JimCaravello
12-15-2005, 12:01 PM
Chris - thanks for that insight. I must have missed that Seinfeld episode!! It still amazes me that they let a willing and able buyer just walk away like that.......

Yankwood
12-15-2005, 04:33 PM
I'm glad others out there are starting to notice the complete lack of sense made by these people. I really don't understand the business sense being used here. I saw a listing that Bernie Williams was doing a private signing for Steiner in January. I sent a note to the promoter asking how much it would be for Mr. Williams to sign a bat of his that I own. I was told $400. I responded by telling him that I didn't need the bat, only for Bernie to sign it and he replied, "Maybe you don't understand me, $400 is for JUST the signature". Please explain to me how many people can afford or will pay $400 for an autograph of a living human being? If the charge was even $30 or $40, wouldn't this be a better business move in the long run? These people are chasing away future hobbyists as well as people like me. Before I concluded our correspondence I told him "Thanks for helping ruin the effin' hobby". Real mature, I know, but I felt compelled to say that. His respone was, "Hey, you win some, you lose some. Take it or leave it". I let him have the last word but I'm still thinking that classic two-word phrase we all know over and over in my head.

bigtime59
12-15-2005, 05:12 PM
I loathe and detest the New York Yankee$ and everything they stand for...and their uniforms are butt-ugly, anyway. They are the main reason that the first rule of my jersey collection is: no pinstripes! Reading threads like this one makes being home sick almost...fun!

s.carter
12-15-2005, 05:19 PM
I am new to the site and am by no means taking sides in this arguement but I find some of the points of view on this site to be insane. I think what a lot of you fail or neglect to comprehend is that there is nothing in this world that is free. Some of you talk as if Mickey Mantle is still walking the streets of NY signing autographs for free. This doesn't happen. There are expenses that need to be met. You talk about Bernie signing which is a good topic. You want Steiner to charge $30 or $40 per autograph... HOW? WHY? Bernie Williams has not done a signing for 9 YEARS, do you honestly think he's charging $30 or $40 per autograph? My guess is he's charging Steiner atleast 100-150 per sig and that's just for a flat. Most athletes have even higher charges for jerseys, bats, etc. I agree some of Steiner's prices are high but to crtitice without fully understanding the industry is silly. Also let's keep in mind Steiner is a multi million dollar a year company, they have employees, rent, etc. This is not some guy just walking the streets making up prices, this is a business. I buy from them alot and while I'm not always thrilled with price hey if you want the best you gotta pay for it. If you want the best price and service sometimes you gotta pay. You may like driving a Kia go ahead, me I'm riding in a BMW any chance I get.

Yankwood
12-15-2005, 05:56 PM
If you think that Bernie Williams charges Steiner for everything he signs, then it is you who does not understand how it works. Steiner gives the player a certain fee and then charges whatever they want. And no, Mickey Mantle is not walking the streets but neither is Bernie Williams dead. I am not asking anyone to GIVE me anything, but $400 please! It is no wonder why baseball and paid signings have such a lousy public relations reputation. Greed --and most people are disturbed by it. We are mortgaging the future by not making things accesible to kids. It's bad enough we start post-season games too late for most of them to watch but now....never mind. I've gotten off the subject now. Anyway, I would love to know how many people are forking over $400 in January for 3 seconds of effort.

s.carter
12-15-2005, 06:09 PM
Yankwood, bet me your favorite game used piece that Steiner gets charged per signature by the athlete. I know for a fact thats how it works, there are no lump appearance fees its a per signature, per inscription, per everything deal. As for how many autos they sell I bet my favorite game used piece they sell out the signing. Happy holidays! :)

Yankwood
12-15-2005, 06:20 PM
If this is indeed how it works then things have changed since I was indirectly involved with autograph shows back in the 80' and I will stand corrected. And if Bernie Williams can sit there and sign for that price then he should be spanked. Maybe by me. Maybe I will change my name from Yankwood to Spankwood and tell him he should be ashamed. I do understand supply and demand economics and I also know that Bernie has been spouting biblical quotations throughout his career and I believe there is one about greed that he missed. Anyway, I have said my peace and these things get boring so I will make this my last post so I can earn some extra money for that autograph ticket. NOT ! ! !

BULBUS
12-15-2005, 07:54 PM
The signing will probably sell out and thats the problem. As long as people are shelling out $400 for another persons signature, things arent going to change. I would NEVER spend that much money for someone to sign their name on something I put in front of them. It goes the same for the ridiculous prices that Steiner puts on their jerseys, idiots are paying that much. I bought a few jerseys from their auctions for reasonable prices, but I laugh at them when they contact me and try to sell me an item at these ludicrous prices. Needless to say, they havent given me a call in a while. I still love the Yanks though, GO YANKEES ! ! ! !

Soonerfan65
12-15-2005, 08:21 PM
Steiner charges these kinds of prices because they know in the long run that someone will pay their price; i wouldn't pay $20 for Bernie Williams' auto and i'm a Yankee fan, but don't collect their stuff because it's too freaking high; if people would just walk away, then Steiner would choke on their Yankees stuff and the price would have to come down eventually.

John

2000mvpfan
12-16-2005, 01:20 AM
......I still remember the heyday of the hobby in the mid '80's when Mickey Mantle,Joe DiMaggio,and Ted Williams were all 7 dollar autographs.....on any item!!!Now Bernie was a nice player for the Yanks all these years,but is certainly no Hall of Famer or player who even approaches those guys.I guess if they were still alive,Steiner'd be charging $2000 an autograph for them,since they were getting $800 for McGwire and now $400 for Bernie....and someone would still pay it.What they've done to the hobby is a shame....

ChrisCavalier
12-16-2005, 01:49 AM
I also know that Bernie has been spouting biblical quotations throughout his career

Along these lines, can someone please confirm for me what Bernie has been known to commonly add under his signature. I was told by someone that it is "SOG" standing for "Son of God". However, I have seen a number of signatures where the additional letters added look more like "SDG". Can someone please fill me in?

Thanks in advance,
Christopher Cavalier

cohibasmoker
12-16-2005, 07:00 AM
Guys/Gals. I don't know what all the fuss is with Steiner Sports. We forget one important point, we control the market NOT Steiner!!! The money is in our pockets. Ultimately, it's our decision on whether or not we want to take it out.

Yankwood
12-16-2005, 08:11 AM
SDG stands for Solo a Dios Gloria whch roughly translates to Glory of God. Bernie is a classically trained guitar player and this phrase is derived from one of the movements from one of his favorite classical pieces. From now on maybe it will be MDA. Mucho dinero por autografo.

Vintagedeputy
12-16-2005, 08:32 AM
I'm a born and raised Yankee fan and I always admired Williams but no freakin' way would I pay $400 for his autograph. I dont care if he signed his name on Cindy Crawford's butt with a 24 kt gold pen.

Yankwood
12-16-2005, 09:20 AM
I'm a born and raised Yankee fan and I always admired Williams but no freakin' way would I pay $400 for his autograph. I dont care if he signed his name on Cindy Crawford's butt with a 24 kt gold pen.Let's not get carried away now.:D :cool:

ChrisCavalier
12-16-2005, 11:23 AM
SDG stands for Solo a Dios Gloria whch roughly translates to Glory of God. Bernie is a classically trained guitar player and this phrase is derived from one of the movements from one of his favorite classical pieces.

Hello Yankwood-

Thanks for the information. Having studied Italian and knowing that Bernie was from Puerto Rico (with Spanish being his native tongue), I thought it was highly likely it was "SDG" with the "D" standing for "Dios".

BTW, Bernie has been one of my favorite players for years and I was one of his earliest proselytizers. In fact, I remember purchasing 1,000 of his rookie cards when he was still in the minor leagues and telling everyone he was going to be a star. It was the first time I purchased baseball cards since I was a kid and thought it would be a good investment (back then people were buying cards in bulk as investments). In fact, I still have the 1,000 cards and the receipt with the original date of purchase.

I also saw Bernie perform with his guitar on Good Morning America. He's actually very good. If I'm not mistaken, I think Paul Simon had good things to say about his guitar playing abilities.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier

trsent
12-16-2005, 11:24 AM
You are right, first, is there such a thing as a 24K gold pen?

Then, I don't think Cindy Crawford is having her rear end autographed by anyone, let alone Bernie Williams.

Besides, eventually the autograph would wear off so it would totally be a waste of $400.00.

ChrisCavalier
12-16-2005, 11:31 AM
I'm a born and raised Yankee fan and I always admired Williams but no freakin' way would I pay $400 for his autograph. I dont care if he signed his name on Cindy Crawford's butt with a 24 kt gold pen.
Hello Vintagedeputy-

I may have to agree with Yankwood on that one. While I am happily married and adore my wife, I have to think there are some people out there that might think that value proposition would pay out on the back end. :)

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier

trsent
12-16-2005, 11:42 AM
Is that a punn?

Ok, you all have a point, if I could video tape Bernie Williams autographing Cindy Crawford's rear end, I could possibly sell the videos for lots of cash. That would mean $400.00 would be a cheap investment based on the return.

Yankwood
12-16-2005, 01:28 PM
And if she didn't like the autograph being there I'd volunteer to erase it for her.:p

kingjammy24
12-16-2005, 02:51 PM
To those saying that Steiner's prices are "too high"; how can they be "too high" if Steiner items are selling and they're still in business? If their prices were "too high" then their items would not sell and Steiner could not stay financially solvent. The mere fact that their items sell is proof that their prices are not too high. They're too high for me and for some others, but it's idiocy to use myself as a gauge for market prices. EG: If I'm not willing to pay $1200 for an ARod jersey, then the price must therefore be "too high". What sort of logic is that? Simply put, if Steiner wasn't actually selling these items, then they wouldn't exist and we wouldn't be talking about them.

One of the main reasons Steiner is able to set these astronomical prices is because they formed a cartel with the Yankees which gave Steiner the monopoly on Yankee items. They have no competition to force them to have 'competitive' pricing. If you want to blame Steiner, then blame the Yankees as well. They're the ones who agreed to the cartel.

Jim: yes you are missing something. How is Steiner "out of touch with reality" if the actual reality is that their items are selling for these prices?
Steiner has a lack of knowledge of their items? Jim, they have a monopoly and a cartel with the Yankees. They know very well what they have. They're very shrewd business people with aggressive tactics. They've taken one of the most popular sports teams in history, in one of the wealthiest cities in America, and signed an exclusive agreement with them. Business-wise, it's a brilliant idea. Who's laughing at them when they manage to actually sell an ARod jersey for $10k? If Steiner is clueless, then they're clueless all the way to the bank. I wish I was clueless enough to be able to actually sell a Matsui jersey for $15k.

As for blaming these prices for 'ruining the hobby' by locking out those who can't afford a $400 Bernie Williams autograph; How does Steiner prevent Bernie from signing at the park for free? If Bernie chooses to only sign once every 9 yrs for $400 and never for free at the park or in the hotels, then it's Bernie who's ruining the hobby. Bernie has the choice to sign all the free autographs he wants. Bernie Williams, not Steiner, is the only person who can lock people out from getting a Bernie Williams autograph. If Bernie was famous for constantly giving away his autograph, then don't you think that most of the starry-eyed kids at the signing would forego the $400 signing and figure they could get a free autograph at the ballpark? Blame Bernie for restricting the supply of his autograph so severly that Steiner is actually able to fetch $400 for it. It has nothing to do with his fees. If Bernie flooded the market with his autograph, the value would decrease substantially. If he then turned to Steiner and commanded a $300k appearance fee, Steiner would be forced to tell him that they would not be able to recoup the money because people simply would not pay $400 for something that is available so cheaply and readily. Even for Bernie Williams, Steiner is not going to lose money.

If you're going to blame Steiner, start with the Yankees, Bernie, and every one of Steiner's customers.

Besides, the Yankees need all the money they can get. How else are they going keep their title of "Highest Payroll without a World Series victory"? :D 5 years running! Great job, guys!

Rudy.

Yankwood
12-16-2005, 03:15 PM
I have to question how much of this game used stuff they are really selling, though. Since April or so when this stuff first went on line, I am still seeing the same bats (Tino M. $1500 Brosius $750, O'Neill $2000) etc. etc. etc. listed on line. They keep having auctions where stuff isn't even getting bids at fractions of these prices as I have seen and as Jim C. pointed out. They sell alot of pictures and promotional bats and such with autographs at far less than the $400 pricetag that seems to be getting thrown around now since my first post on this subject. Nobody is looking for Bob Feller type oversaturation here, just sanity. If I'm being naive, so be it, but people will get fed up with the greed exhibited here and the goose will kill the golden egg. Or, the prices will eventually come down and I think you are all seeing this with the current closing auction prices.

kingjammy24
12-16-2005, 03:42 PM
Personally, I don't know how well their items are selling. I can only infer that they're selling reasonably well because Steiner is still in business.

If people are right and the prices genuinely are too high, then I still don't see why it's an issue because the lack of sales will necessarily force Steiner to eventually lower the prices or go out of business.
(If prices stay the same over the long term, then you can blame the Yankees and rich collectors).

You can profit via either price or volume. Ferrari vs. Toyota.
Steiner chose to be Ferrari. The thing is, Ferrari knows exactly how much it can sell and produces only enough to ensure a healthy waiting list. Perhaps Steiner overestimated demand. In any case, Steiner's prices are of little concern over the long term.

Jim et al: if you are indeed correct and Steiner's prices are too high, then
simply start saving for the eventual firesales and liquidation auction now.

Yankwood: If you're saying this stuff is not selling, then Steiner is sitting on a decent amount of inventory. I'm sure they paid the Yankees a considerable amount for their exclusive agreement so they've got a large cost to recoup. The inventory is going to increase every season. Inventory doesn't pay the bills. If the inventory keeps building and business is slow, watch for big sales. If there are none, then it must mean they're obtaining these high prices. Should be interesting. I guess we'll all see how it pans out.

I imagine Barry Meisel would know a considerable more about all of this seeing as how he's the "Steiner" of Texas Rangers jerseys in terms of having a cartel/monopoly. Not in terms of pricing. I know he's sitting on a decent amount of inventory and I think it forces him to offer some pretty attractive sales every now and then.

Rudy.

Yankwood
12-16-2005, 04:13 PM
Well said, King of all Jammies. Perhaps Mr. Meisel will chime in and give us the lowdown.

JimCaravello
12-16-2005, 06:48 PM
Forum Members - you are missing the point of my original post. Let's start over. An item for auction with an opening bid of $250 doesn't sell and the next day it costs $1500?? I have no question that the Steiner folks are smart - and they are making money and SOME items are selling. Forget about Bernie signing for $400 for a moment and forget that they even sell anything other than game used items. What I am saying is - where do you ask for $250 one day and $1500 the next day?? The only explanation is that the ....."Special".....had ended?? Did the guy I had e-mail correspondence with think I would just jump at $1500?? What this is doing is making me less likely to open their e-mails ( which I don't open now ) and less likely to look at future auction items.....They let a willing and able Murcer fan and buyer just walk away without any sales techniques - a lame excuse for the price differential - and just overall poor sales follow up on the item. Maybe they are making gobs of money and I am just a pimple on their XXX, which is really the case - but you don't treat people that way period.....and you don't let a willing buyer just walk away with the feelings I had which have now been put down in print to all for see. Yes - the market controls prices, but I'll give you $10,000 for every person who will buy Murcer pants for $1500.............

kingjammy
12-16-2005, 07:11 PM
Jim,

In response to your original point:

> An item for auction with an opening bid of $250 doesn't sell and the next > day it costs $1500??

Apparently yes.

>where do you ask for $250 one day and $1500 the next day??

Because they thought, for some reason, that you'd pay $1500?

>Did the guy I had e-mail correspondence with think I would just jump at >$1500??

Apparently yes.

>The only explanation is that the ....."Special".....had ended??

Jim you don't honestly expect them to tell you outright that they're
trying to sucker you, do you? "Hi Jim, this is Steiner. Listen, we're
going to try to sucker you now. Ready?". Come on Jim.

> What this is doing is making me less likely to open their e-mails ( which I > don't open now ) and less likely to look at future auction items.

Understandable.

If the original point was how they can go from $250 one day to $1500 the next, isn't it obvious? They tried to take you for a sucker. Isn't that an inherant part of this hobby though?

If on the other hand the point was that Steiner has a crappy sales department, then I agree. They hold an online auction and fail to include photos of the tagging for most of their jerseys. Brilliant.

Rudy.

JimCaravello
12-16-2005, 07:23 PM
Rudy - I guess I am too idealistic......I expect everyone to treat me the way I treat them - with respect - class - dignity - honesty.....I expect better things from Steiner........................

Yankwood
12-16-2005, 07:26 PM
Obviously they are starting to turn alot of people off. However, as The King of All Jammies wrote earlier, I believe, before too long, we will be the recipients of a sane and real market. If we have not sworn them off by then. Their closing auction prices are already starting to show this.

ChrisCavalier
12-16-2005, 07:39 PM
I'll give you $10,000 for every person who will buy Murcer pants for $1500.............
Okay. I'll buy the Murcer pants for $1,500...as long as you send me the $10,000 first (just kidding). Seriously, I know what you mean Jim and I agree. We got a bit off topic in this thread and lost track of your original question about how Steiner thinks someone will be willing to pay $1,500 for an item they just established was too expensive at $250 the day before.

After giving it some more thought, here is another possible explanation. Maybe Steiner's marketing strategy is to periodically put items that are not moving at regular retail prices in auction to see if they get any action. If not, they return them to inventory and offer them back up at their regular retail prices so as not to denigrate the perceived value of all their other items. While that may have the potential to confound someone in your situation, they may feel dropping a a price on an item that is supposed to sell at "retail" (i.e., not in auction) is too big a price to pay to have others think they are in the business of dropping prices on their retail items (a point that Rudy has elaborated on at length).

Just a thought.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier

JimCaravello
12-16-2005, 07:51 PM
Chris - I knew someone would take me up on the offer to buy the pants and ask me to send the $15,000 to them....but I didn't think it would be you!!

You bring up a very good point - but the price differential is so wide...but a very good point. I continue to be frustrated though over this one instance due to the price differerential. If the rep from Steiner had said $500, I wouldn't have even posted at all......if I was really that frustrated, I would walk away from the hobby - but that's not the case. I really posted originally to get some dialigue going and to be quite honest - hopefully thinking that some Steiner folks would read the post and maybe change some of their thinking. I have worked in may different industries in my short ( feels like long life ) and they are all the same......the memorabilia industry is no different. Like I said in an earlier post - I am not trying to criticize anyone - just trying to offer some suggestions. Life is too short and I am having too much fun in life and with this hobby to walk away bitter....Signed - game used bat freak and avid Yankees fan!

kingjammy24
12-16-2005, 07:56 PM
chris,

you're saying that steiner uses auctions as de facto 'sales' in order to
1) move items they want to move while 2) preventing people from thinking they have sales, which they feel may "cheapen" the appearance of their regular priced goods?

i suppose it's possible. it sounds like a bizarre marketing theory though.
once people start seeing the prices realized in the auctions, they're going to come to conclusions on the 'real market value' of steiner's items because at an auction the prices realized are determined by the market and not steiner. people will start to think "hey if that Arod jersey didn't sell for 10k at auction then why would i ever pay 20k for one?". conversely, if steiner held a "sale" then the reduced prices would simply appear like steiner is intentionally lowering prices without alluding to the 'real market value' of the items. that is, at a sale if you wonder why that Arod jersey is only going for $2k, then steiner can say "we're having a christmas sale! ho ho ho!" instead of at an auction where they're forced to say "it's 2k because that's all anyone was willing to pay". sales look like the 'good will' of the merchant; auctions reveal the true market value.
if your theory is indeed what steiner is doing, then they've got an incredibly inept marketing department.

rudy.

ChrisCavalier
12-16-2005, 08:34 PM
conversely, if steiner held a "sale" then the reduced prices would simply appear like steiner is intentionally lowering prices without alluding to the 'real market value' of the items. that is, at a sale if you wonder why that Arod jersey is only going for $2k, then steiner can say "we're having a christmas sale! ho ho ho!" instead of at an auction where they're forced to say "it's 2k because that's all anyone was willing to pay". sales look like the 'good will' of the merchant; auctions reveal the true market value.
if your theory is indeed what steiner is doing, then they've got an incredibly inept marketing department.
Hello Rudy-

I think your comments may assume that the people who buy the items at retail are also following the auctions. Whether or not that is true I do not know. However, I do think given Steiner's monopoly and cost structure they probably want to stay away from having a reputation for putting items on "Sale" in general. According to Steiner's response to Jim that "the $250 opening bid was a "Special" and now that the..."Special".... was over", it appears they may not see the opening bid of an auction as the equivalent of an ongoing "Sale". I know it seems similar but there can be perceived differences (maybe why they used the word "Special"?).

In any event, we are speculating on something that seems very irrational on the surface. While it is a fun exercise, rather than hypothesizing one of us should probably follow-up with Steiner directly and see what they have to say about their auction strategy.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier

BarryMeisel
12-17-2005, 10:16 AM
Hi Yankwood,

I'll be happy to chime in.

First, let me say I have no detailed knowledge of the Yankees-Steiner deal. As I've stated many times in many discussions, I believe it is unfair to speculate without facts. So I won't.

What I can discuss, and what is important here, I believe, is the concept of how a sports memorabilia company can help work effectively with a team to improve the hobby, and offer collectors legitimate game-worn items at a fair price.

MeiGray's goals when dealing with the Texas Rangers are, as follows:

1) Ensure absolute authenticity for the game-worn and game-used items we sell.
2) Ensure that collectors get good value, i.e., prices are fair.
3) Satisfy the team's requirement for effective marketing, i.e, represent them professionally, treat their customers right, satisfy them financially.
4) Earn a fair profit for our company.

Exclusive deals are necessary, I believe, for any sports memorabilia company that cares about absolute authenticity. By security tagging, or inventory tagging, or otherwise taking great care and spending money to ensure absolute authenticity, MeiGray has always felt it adds value to the jerseys it sells because authenticity is 100%.

Without an exclusive, real doubt can exist within the hobby. An example:

We have a relationship with the Philadelphia Eagles, but it is not an exclusive one. Recently, several collectors questioned a 2004 Donovan McNabb jerseys that was on ebay from another dealer. We acquired one white McNabb jersey in 2004, directly from the Eagles. We photo-matched the white jersey to the six consecutive games in which McNabb wore this jersey, and we offered this provenance to the collector who bought the jersey.

The white McNabb offered on ebay did not mention the specific provenance, was not acquired directly from the team (I called the Eagles and asked), and did not mention if it was photo-matched.

Now, I have no idea if this McNabb was worn in an NFL game, I never saw the actual jersey. I have no idea if it was worn in 1 game, 2 games, one second in the locker room. It could have been purchased directly from McNabb, but the ebay listing did not specifically say. If this jersey is a real McNabb (and we know he did wear at least one more white jersey in 2004 since we got ours midway through the season, and the customization appeared consistent with the one we acquired) it bothers me that the standard we set for authenticity and provenance was not matched. It bothers me because I believe it hurts the hobby ... especially when the jersey is being offered at market prices.

In a way, though, it helps MeiGray: Would you rather pay $5,000 for a white 2004 McNab that was photo-matched to six consecutive games, that comes with documentation from the Eagles attesting to its relationship with MeiGray, that it comes with documentation from MeiGray attesting to its relationship with the Eagles ...

or would you rather buy a 2004 McNab that a guy says is legit ... without offering specific PROOF of authenticity.

You collectors have a big role in this. It astounds me how many of you purchase questionable items, contact MeiGray to ask about authenticity, but admit you didn't ask these questions of the dealer, or collector, or auction house from which you purchased the jersey.
Why not? Some of you who have purchased from us, and have visited MeiGray, and have spoken kindly of our service and standards (and thanks again to all of you, you know who you are), have written of this difference in this Forum.

The difference, though, is usually the difference between absolute authenticity and questionable product.

We know how we all want items to be real when they fit into our collections. That is the dirty little secret unscrupulous dealers prey on. That is why we've exposed dozens of fake Mark Messiers, and no fake Alexander Karpovtsevs (no disrepect, Alex).

In our eight years in business, collectors have not come back saying our jerseys are not real. They have not come back saying we sell game-issued jerseys as game worn. When a team makes a mistake or misleads us (Dallas Stars' Stanley Cup Finals jerseys in 1999, Texas Rangers Turn Back The Clock jerseys in 2003), we are the ones taking the lead to correct the errors made by the teams.

In fact, the quality of the items we sell have been used by many collectors, including many of you who participate in this Forum, to identify some of the junk in the marketplace that passes as game-worn. Including jerseys "authenticated" by some of the so-called experts, auction houses, etc., whose lack of expertise is astounding and lack of thorough research astounds me.

We spend time and effort and money ensuring our relationships with the team include steps to ensure absolute authenticity. We have chosen not to deal with teams who elect not to take these steps, because we take very seriously the fact that we represent the teams AND THE COLLECTING HOBBY.

Now I don't say this to be sanctimonius. I say this because MeiGray cares about the hobby, and MeiGray believes this is the best and fairest way to make a fair profit ... which we feels it is entitled to by running its business this way.

Game-worn jerseys are not gas, or food, or other necessities. If I priced every Texas Rangers jersey too high, I would not sell enough to be profitable. So when MeiGray acquires an exclusive deal, it has a responsibility to the Rangers to pay enough, to the collectors to offer fair value, service and prices, and to itself to make a fair profit.

To ask the question, as you all have in this thread, if a deal is working, you have to give the deal time. The answer will come from the team (if it continues in the relationship), the dealer (if it continues in the relationship) and the collectors (if they purchase the items).

Thanks for listening,

Barry

both-teams-played-hard
12-18-2005, 02:37 PM
I let him have the last word but I'm still thinking that classic two-word phrase we all know over and over in my head.

"Best Wishes"?
"Good Luck"?
"Yours Truly"?
"Roll Tide"?

ChrisCavalier
12-18-2005, 07:08 PM
What I can discuss, and what is important here, I believe, is the concept of how a sports memorabilia company can help work effectively with a team to improve the hobby, and offer collectors legitimate game-worn items at a fair price.
Hello Barry-

I just wanted to say thank you for the taking the time to share your thoughts. I know there are a number of us here who appreciate your efforts in bringing legitimate game-used items to the marketplace.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier
CEO - Game Used Universe

Yankwood
12-18-2005, 07:48 PM
"Best Wishes"?
"Good Luck"?
"Yours Truly"?
"Roll Tide"?"Happy Trails"

theotheo
12-18-2005, 09:24 PM
if You Have Something People Will Pay For Why Would You Sell It For Less? As Insane As 400.00 Is For Bernie Williams To Sign Anything I Don't Think You Can Blame Steiner For Charging It If They Can Get It. The Problem Lies In People Willing To Pay That. Anybody Who Collects Autographs With Any Intention Whatsoever Of Re Selling Them In The Future Should Know That They Will Never Never Never Make Any Money Reselling A Bernie Wiliams Item If 400.00 Was Paid To Sign It. Bernie Is A Solid Player Who Would Be Just Another Player On Any Other Team. Even On The Yankees It Is Almost Impossible To Get 400.00 For A Bernie Game Used Bat. If Bernie Dies Tomorrow (or The Day After The Signing) You Still Have No Chance To Get That Back. Anyone With Any Hobby Knowledge At All Should Not By A Bernie For Even Close To That. Unfortunately You Have Yankees Fans With Too Much Money To Spend And 400.00 Does Not Seem Ridiculous To Them Because They Would Pay The Same For Chad Curtis Or Scott Brosius. If You Buy A Bernie Signature From Steiner I Hope You Plan To Keep It And Cherish It For Ever Because If You Ever Sell It You Will Lose Money. Bernie Is The Al Gore (boring ) Of The Yankees And His Stuff Is Great For Collecting Dust. I Assume Anybody Who Reads This Forum Does Not Even Entertain The Thought Of Paying That.

Yankwood
12-18-2005, 09:31 PM
Well, I don't think the complaints of $400 were that you couldn't sell them at a profit. Anybody knows that. And I learned long ago that most everything you collect should be because you like a certain player and not to someday make money off it because most of the time you will not. But you learn this over time.

JimCaravello
12-19-2005, 02:59 AM
Barry - great post and I am glad there are folks in the hobby like you and like Steiner - yes, like Steiner. Let's start over one more time - I am glad that Steiner is involved with GU equipment. I have been able to get a few pieces that years ago I would have never thought about getting. Back to the point of my original post about how they market items. How do you ask $250 for an item one day ( and no one one is willing to buy ) and $1,500 the next? How do you put a 1992 Roberto Kelly GU jersey up for auction, when its really a 1992 Roberto Kelly All Star Game Used jersey - a pretty rare and desirable piece to find these days ( another post on the Forum). The marketing people at Steiner seem to be "a little off the mark" - that's what this post is about. If they had a few more people from the industry involved, there wouldn't be posts like this on the Forum. Barry - you don't make these mistakes - you understand the hobby and GU equipment - you understand how to price items - you know how to market items - you treat people with respect - that's why you are an asset to the hobby and you are successful.

One last thought along this same line about their lack of knowledge of what they are selling and their lack of knowledge about GU equipment. A friend of mine told me recently that on the YES Network, on an episode of Yankees Steiner Collectibles, the question came up to Brandon Steiner as to what the value of an Ozzie Guillen Game Used Bat was worth in the market. Now I didn't see the episode, and I am going from memory of what my friend told me ( so I might be off like $25 - $50 ), but Brandon said that before the World Series, a Guillen might sell for $250 and because they won the Series a Guillen might now sell for $750......hmmm.....let's see - Guillen played in the 80's & 90's - fairly common bat......I don't ever think I have seen a Guillen sell for more than $100 period. To think that someone would pay $250 before the Series and $750 after the Series just proves my point about their lack of knowledge of the GU industry.

I guess I got a steal a year ago when I bought my Joe Torre Game Used bat from 1971 - his MVP year - for $500. I bet if the Yanks didn't win any World Series under him, I would have been able to get that bat for $100!!

Other examples of Steiner really not knowing what they are selling include:
1. They have auctioned jerseys as game used tagged with players and years that do not coincide with the player being on the team that year.
2. The 1997 Jackie patch debate - they have auctioned sold a lot of these jerseys with no patches and no explanation whay they are missing. If there is no evidence of a patch being there, the jersey is not game used and yet they have sold a ton with this description.
3.They have auctioned & sold game used bats of players that never used that model bat in a game - but they show use, so they must be game used.
4. Numerous game used jerseys with just a year number and set number in the collar have been sold and they have been tied to a player that wore that number in the year - without the stitching of the player's name. They may be good, but are they? Did they speak with the Yankees Equipment Managers? They are so emphatic that they are game used of that player, but most people won't touch them.
5. A Posada jersey is currently on the auction site from 1997 - it had the Jackie patch! But the tail tag did not have Posada's name - it had the year and the lettering X-97. Well - can you explain to us why Posada's name is not in the tail? Why don't you find out before you sell it and give us an explanation? It might sell for more if you do that and you could educate us all at the same time. What does X-97 mean?

Steiner - get some people involved in your company that understand the GU industry. Get some people involved on the sales side who know what they are talking about. You have a great thing going - but think of what you could really do for your company, the Yankees and the hobby if you brought on the right people to direct this venture. THAT'S MY POINT. Jim Caravello

BarryMeisel
12-19-2005, 03:17 PM
Jim,

Thanks very much for your kind words.
Happy Holidays to you, and to everyone on the Forum.

Regards,

Barry

axel900
12-20-2005, 02:33 PM
Here's an interesting question. If you wanted the pants at $250 so bad why didnt you bid on them?? I guess you have never participated in an auction before, If the item does not sell it goes back to the house. It is theirs to sell. Stop complaining and take advantage when you can.

ChrisCavalier
12-20-2005, 02:44 PM
Here's an interesting question. If you wanted the pants at $250 so bad why didnt you bid on them?? I guess you have never participated in an auction before, If the item does not sell it goes back to the house. It is theirs to sell. Stop complaining and take advantage when you can.
Hello Axel-

The answer to your question was in the original post. Here it is:

"Last night, there were some Bobby Murcer pants in auction that had an opening bid of $250. Since Murcer jerseys are almost impossible, I had planned on bidding on these pants. $250 was really more than I wanted to pay - but in today's world - probably not too bad a price. They were home pinstripes from 1979. Well, I had a Christmas party to attend last night and I thought the auction would still be going when I came home, but it had ended."

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier

Yankwood
12-20-2005, 02:53 PM
Hello Axel-

The answer to your question was in the original post. Here it is:

"Last night, there were some Bobby Murcer pants in auction that had an opening bid of $250. Since Murcer jerseys are almost impossible, I had planned on bidding on these pants. $250 was really more than I wanted to pay - but in today's world - probably not too bad a price. They were home pinstripes from 1979. Well, I had a Christmas party to attend last night and I thought the auction would still be going when I came home, but it had ended."

Sincerely,
Christopher CavalierHey, I've gotten drunk and missed auctions before, too. Who hasn't. That's how other people get bargains. The hardcores get home late or pass out early and the clean livers (with clean livers) take over the auction.

ChrisCavalier
12-20-2005, 03:10 PM
Hey, I've gotten drunk and missed auctions before, too. Who hasn't. That's how other people get bargains. The hardcores get home late or pass out early and the clean livers (with clean livers) take over the auction.
Yankwood, do you do stand-up comedy?

The only problem with your theory is that Jim doesn't strike me as a person who would come home late because he got ripped. In fact, I think it's more likely he got home late because he drove someone else home who was inebriated than getting drunk himself.

-Christopher Cavalier

s.carter
12-20-2005, 03:18 PM
Chris, I see two problems with this situation. One is you think Yankwood is kidding and giving a theory, I'm more inclined to believe he's 100% serious and speaking from personal experiences. Two this is the guy giving business tips to a multi million dollar company...very troubling.

Yankwood
12-20-2005, 03:45 PM
Chris, I see two problems with this situation. One is you think Yankwood is kidding and giving a theory, I'm more inclined to believe he's 100% serious and speaking from personal experiences. Two this is the guy giving business tips to a multi million dollar company...very troubling.Not business tips. Just someone who's aghast that a business that is supposed to be so brilliant has nobody that knows where the records are kept that shows when an item was shipped. Is that too much to ask?

JimCaravello
12-20-2005, 08:43 PM
First off - I wasn't drunk - I forgot the time the auction ended and really thought it ended later in the evening. I don't know if you can snipe a Steiner auction, like you can with ebay, but I haven't figured that out yet if you can........ but to post a comment relative to me tipping the bottle and missing the auction and being disgruntled - you are way off the mark. A lot of you don't seem to understand the point I have stated over and over in my posts. If you haven't picked up on it yet, you never will. Thank you Chris for your kind comments - and Yankwood's comments are correct in the previous post.

Secondly - yes, some guy is giving a multi-million dollar company tips. It's not the first time it has happened in this country and it won't be the last. Constructive comments to my company from any person in any walk of life are welcome in my business - and that's why we are successful. Steiner will wake up and improve, as I am not the only one who sees the areas that need improvement. Jim Caravello

trsent
12-20-2005, 10:18 PM
Ok, someone tell me since I just don't know -

Is $700 for a 16x20 autographed by Kiss reasonable?

http://www.steinersports.com/ssm/control/category/~pcategory=1011/~browseCats=10688

Happy Holidays! :)

pietraynor
12-21-2005, 02:23 AM
I too was wondering why you didn't bid the $250 for the Murcer pants, that's a fair price, and I agree, $1,500 is high..correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this a 7 or 10-day auction? You could have placed a bid at any time..Could it be since you had success purchasing another item at a lower price from Steiner, that you were hoping to do the same w/the Murcer pants and it didn't work out? I've purchased several items from Steiner w/o problems..I do agree that a shipping notification from them would be nice and even discussed that w/ them and they agreed, noting it would likely be added in the future.

s.carter
12-21-2005, 11:30 AM
Jim I hope you didn't perceive my post to have anything at all to do with you. By no means was I taking a cheap shot at you, I was aiming for Yankwood and his comments about bottle tipping. As for giving an opinion on Steiner I agree 100% constructive criticism is great in any business at anytime. I just feel some people on this forum are not constructive rather petty and irrational, you are not one of those people. This topic of Steiner seems to have really gotten crazy, I don't think I've ever seen 50 something posts on any topic on this page.

Yankwood
12-21-2005, 12:08 PM
Jim I hope you didn't perceive my post to have anything at all to do with you. By no means was I taking a cheap shot at you, I was aiming for Yankwood and his comments about bottle tipping. As for giving an opinion on Steiner I agree 100% constructive criticism is great in any business at anytime. I just feel some people on this forum are not constructive rather petty and irrational, you are not one of those people. This topic of Steiner seems to have really gotten crazy, I don't think I've ever seen 50 something posts on any topic on this page.Well, if being "petty", "irrational" and non"constructive" means expecting a bit of attention on the phone after spending hundreds of dollars, well then color me INSANE:eek: . I'm not sure how old any of you are and although I am not yet, and I stress YET erectially dysfunctional, I am old enough to remember when being treated with a little common courtesy was a source of pride from most well-run businesses. If we, and that includes you or anyone, are not important enough to get a response more flippant than I received by the Steiner lot, well then we all should be spanked because we have all allowed this attitude to become prevalent these days. I know for a fact that many of the posters on the site make a few bucks off schmucks like me. And that's great. We DON'T have to let ourselves be talked down to by an outfit that seemingly sees itself as too important to keep something so simple as an effin' shipping record and basically hung up on. And also, YES, we CAN sit hear and bitch about how much something costs because that is part of what we as a society do. And I believe what forums like this are for. Informing each other of what we like and dislike about our hobby. We all moan and groan about prices. Not just sports related items but in the everyday world. Cars, houses, GAS, etc......If some of you have more money than you know what to do with, well than great. You probably bitch about other things. I am guilty. I bought a Steiner item. I made a pact with the "devil". I have heard alot of complaints from others and now I understand why. I probably won't ever again. I can't promise that, and I am sure they won't miss my 2 or 3 hundred bucks. But if they jerk around 100 others like me, who resent being treated poorly by someone who just accepted my money, they may learn the hard way. So if I think spending $400 on an autograph of a living human is a bit on the high side, well then you are right and I am being very petty and irrational. But I think I have the right to express an opinion regarding it since I believe that's part of what this whole forum is about. On the other hand, it is also about praising others who do us well. Communicating, sharing experiences, bitching once in a while and joking with each other is the very essence of the hobby. Without it, it's just a store.

trsent
12-21-2005, 12:24 PM
I made a pact with the "devil".

Can you give him my email address? I need to make a deal with him over something private.

Happy Holidays! :)

Yankwood
12-21-2005, 12:29 PM
Can you give him my email address? I need to make a deal with him over something private.

Happy Holidays! :)Well, at least I know now that you weren't the one on here who was "banned". It's about the ONLY forum like this that I haven't been kicked off of yet. I'm sure my time is coming, though. I didn't think you could be kicked off the internet, but I'm not far off.:o

trsent
12-21-2005, 12:36 PM
Well, at least I know now that you weren't the one on here who was "banned". It's about the ONLY forum like this that I haven't been kicked off of yet. I'm sure my time is coming, though. I didn't think you could be kicked off the internet, but I'm not far off.:o

Hehe, can you imagine when you are banned by the government from accessing the internet? They would send people to the library to be sure you weren't logging in. Your picture would be posted at Kinkos.

Happy Holidays! :)

Eric
12-21-2005, 12:50 PM
Well, at least I know now that you weren't the one on here who was "banned". It's about the ONLY forum like this that I haven't been kicked off of yet. I'm sure my time is coming, though. I didn't think you could be kicked off the internet, but I'm not far off.:o

There's no reason anyone should be banned. Just be civil and don't use profanity and we'll be fine.
Eric

Yankwood
12-21-2005, 01:05 PM
There's no reason anyone should be banned. Just be civil and don't use profanity and we'll be fine.
EricWHY YOU @#$!%?*#@, DON'T YOU EVER @$#!%#$& AGAIN! ! !

EurekaDave
12-21-2005, 01:17 PM
Confessions of a Steiner Customer

I've bought some Steiner items--paid too much for some, got a deal on others. I don't blame them for capitalizing on the team's mystique. Everybody else is. Did you ever price a Yankees-Red sox ticket? And they wouldn't be charging those prices if people did not pay them -- including me.

They do have one thing that's mighty rare these days--credibility. I have yet to see one complaint on this site that Steiner has misrepresented anything it has sold. I wish ev eryone did business that-a-way!.

JimCaravello
12-21-2005, 08:53 PM
S.Carter - no problem at all......that's what the Forum is supposed to be used for - facts and good opinions. I posted again recently because I just felt that along the way we got off track with my points of my original post.....Happy hunting out there and Happy Holidays! jim