Altered Kobe Bryant Pro-Cut Jersey Being Advertised on eBay with D. C. Sports LOA as Game Used Rookie Jersey

[trsent]

From eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=221283205038

Title: "Kobe Bryant Signed Game Worn 1996-1997 Rookie Jersey! D.C. Sports LOA!!"

"You are looking at the holy grail of Kobe Bryant jerseys! This is his game worn 1996-1997 home rookie Los Angeles Lakers jersey! It is a size 44 body length plus 4 inches! Kobe only wore champion manufactured jerseys his rookie year! The front of the jersey has the proper gold NBA logo and has some signatures of some of the LA Lakers from that season including Shaquille O'Neal. The signatures are faded but not a big deal, the main thing is this is a True Kobe Bryant Rookie Game Worn Jersey!"

So, I see this jersey, which you can see the pictures of the listed eBay jersey below:

66460

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66464

66465

I cropped the D. C. Sports Letter of Authenticity from the original listing so it is easy to read. As you can see in this letter, Dan Ceniceros states:

"The above mentioned jersey shows accurate wear and was obtained by an impeccable source inside the NBA who has access to player before, during and after games."

Later the letter reads: "The jersey is concurrent with the examples we have in our library and it is our belief that this jersey is a one hundred percent authentic Los Angeles Lakers Kobe Bryant 1996-1997 Signed Game Worn Rookie Home Jersey."

The letter of authenticity is then signed by Dan Ceniceros, Owner of D. C. Sports Collectibles.

Looks like a pretty neat jersey with faded autographed by various Los Angeles Lakers on the front of the jersey. It also has a nice autograph that appears to be Kobe Bryant's autograph on the #8 on the back of the jersey.

Now, let's take a look at another eBay listing that was ended early by the seller - eBay Item #271252678611 - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=271252678611


The title: "Kobe Bryant 1996/97 ROOKIE Los Angeles Lakers Un-Used Pro-Cut Game Issued Jersey"

The description:

"Kobe Bryant #8 1996/1997 Los Angeles Lakers ROOKIE SEASON Pro-Cut / Un-Used/Worn Game Issued Home Jersey. Champion Jersey. Size 44. "Designed & Tailored Exclusively for Los Angeles Lakers BODY LENGTH +4" tag. 1996/1997 NBAS 50th Anniversary gold logo. MADE IN USA. 100% NYLON. All letters and numbers are sewn on. NOT GAME-USED. Like NEW condition. This was a blank Los Angeles game issued jersey that was purchased and lettered to the exact specifications of the NBA team as "BRYANT 8". This jersey was autographed by several members of the 1996/1997 Los Angeles Lakers and have faded off over time, I can make out Shaquille O'Neal and Robert Horry. They are very faint but can still be seen. Jersey measures 22 inches from armpit to armpit, and 35 inches from top of back of neck to bottom."

Take a look at the text I enlarged and highlighted in red in the original eBay description.

I will continue this discussion in the next post as I need to add more pictures from the original eBay listing which will begin the next post in this discussion.

[trsent]

66468

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All images from original eBay Listing #271252678611.

So, I contact the seller from the game used jersey on eBay with the following question: "Dear jerseyking55,

Are you sure this is a true rookie Kobe game worn jersey? It looks identical to the Kobe jersey sold two months ago in eBay item #271252678611 that was sold as a blank pro-cut that was professionally lettered."

I receive the following reply shortly after: "Yes, The jersey is sourced from DC Sports as you can see from the LOA"

So, the seller of this jersey doesn't believe the jersey to be altered or that the jersey listed original in eBay Listing #271252678611 is the same jersey. I tell you what - It is 100% the same exact jersey with the faded autographs on the front and the air-holes match perfectly if you match the two jerseys up from each listing.

Then I submit the autograph on the back of the jersey to PSA/DNA for a Quick Opinion and it comes back not authentic!

Finally, I communicate with the original seller of the jersey selling it as a pro-cut and he told me that he sold the jersey to Mark Montero in August and Mark told him that he sold the jersey to Ryan Covell of Florida as a pro-cut jersey. The seller of the game used jersey on eBay is located in Orlando, FL.

There is a lot of explaining to do here about this jersey as how it has a letter stating it is a game used Kobe Bryant Rookie game worn jersey now with a questionable autograph is a major concern for the integrity of the industry and the hobby as a whole.

I hope these questions are addressed and answered on this forum.

[trsent]

So a time frame is set, the original auction selling this jersey as a pro-cut was ended on eBay August 4th, 2013 while the jersey was listed as a game used autographed jersey with a letter of authenticity on September 14th, 2013.

That means in about a 40 day time frame this jersey went from Milwaukee, who states they shipped it to Louisiana, to where they state it was shipped to Florida and somewhere during this time the jersey was supposedly autographed by Kobe Bryant and it was authenticated as game used by an authenticator in California.

[sportscentury]

Thanks for sharing -- very interesting. Dan, Mark and Ryan are all registered GUU members, so perhaps they can chime in here and offer their thoughts/insights.

[mickeymbz]

The seller of the rook on ebay, i believe ,was not trying to pull a fast one. he truly believed it was the real mccoy,,, the shady part lies in mark montero aka mmontes.,,,, he knowing traded the bogus rook as a game worn to ryan for a genuine 95-96 bulls rodman shirt. He is the purchaser from MSauctions cuz he lives in Louisiana. This aint the first time this clown has pulled a fast one,,, in fact thats 2 now in a month thats been posted on this site. will you still gotta love his dream team jordan with tackle twill numbers..after all he did "pay a lot for it".

[mickeymbz]

Montero comes off as some kinda expert on NBA stuff,, and he uses whatever stature he thinks he has from this site,,, others have been banned for knowingly selling and altering items as game used when they are not,,, time this bozo goes before more collectors are scammed.

[trsent]

The seller of the rook on ebay, i believe ,was not trying to pull a fast one. he truly believed it was the real mccoy,,, the shady part lies in mark montero aka mmontes.,,,, he knowing traded the bogus rook as a game worn to ryan for a genuine 95-96 bulls rodman shirt. He is the purchaser from MSauctions cuz he lives in Louisiana. This aint the first time this clown has pulled a fast one,,, in fact thats 2 now in a month thats been posted on this site. will you still gotta love his dream team jordan with tackle twill numbers..after all he did "pay a lot for it".


Montero comes off as some kinda expert on NBA stuff,, and he uses whatever stature he thinks he has from this site,,, others have been banned for knowingly selling and altering items as game used when they are not,,, time this bozo goes before more collectors are scammed.

I think you are making an assumption here and that isn't fair.

I do not know for fact who made the decision to add a questionable autograph and have the jersey certified as game used. Rumblings I have overheard seem to lead in a different direction but I am not posting on anyone else's behalf - All three people who were mentioned in my original posts are members of this forum, and they should log in and comment on the situation that is a black eye for the industry.

Mark is mmonte4 and he has over 250 posts on this forum the last being late in September this year.

Ryan is ryanjerseyb and he has never posted but he is shown as a registered member for about a year now.

Dan is DConLA and he has over 150 posts on here the last being at the end of August this year.

All three are active members and I assume all three are aware of this discussion. The listing was ended on eBay by the seller early Friday morning just hours after this discussion was started.

It would be nice to hear from these three to help save some face of the situation.

[mickeymbz]

250 posts so..? lotta collectors with great collections don't post. .. you yourself tracked the movement.. from ms to LA... I know ryan,, he got scammed. assumption, maybe... but a damn good one

[mickeymbz]

yeah agreed,.,, let em speak.

[trsent]

250 posts so..? lotta collectors with great collections don't post. .. you yourself tracked the movement.. from ms to LA... I know ryan,, he got scammed. assumption, maybe... but a damn good one

I post how many posts they have made to show they have been active on the forum so there is no excuse not to join in and explain.

As for your aassumptions that is not fair to anyone in this discussion. I wonder if Ryan is the innocent victim here why he wouldn't look at the original listing that I emailed him and understand there is something wrong and he should investigate it and not try to stand behind a letter for a jersey that undoubtedly is not what he was advertising selling.

[mickeymbz]

[quote=trsent;337321]I post how many posts they have made to show they have been active on the forum so there is no excuse not to join in and explain.

As for your aassumptions that is not fair to anyone in this discussion. I wonder if Ryan is the innocent victim here why he wouldn't look at the original listing that I emailed him and understand there is something wrong and he should investigate it and not try to stand behind a letter for a jersey that undoubtedly is not what he was advertising selling

it has a letter from a respected authenticator.. so he assumed its authentic. the doosh with 250+ posts bought it as an issue..trading it as used.. so who's assuming now?

[trsent]

it has a letter from a respected authenticator.. so he assumed its authentic. the doosh with 250+ posts bought it as an issue..trading it as used.. so who's assuming now?

Mick Wong, you are friends with Ryan, why don't you contact him and ask him for details. How do you know Mark traded it as used? Where do you get that information? I don't know how Mark sold it and neither do you. Please do not make speculations - Let's have the parties involved comment on the situation.

As for having a letter from a respected authenticator- That is no excuse - I emailed him an eBay listing for the same identical jersey being sold as a customized pro-cut. Instead of standing behind a letter he should have taken the time to look at what I presented to him and then make a decision. Instead he used a letter to defend his item as authentic even though I clearly showed it to him as not being authentic.

You mentioned a Rodman jersey before which makes me think you are posting using information from talking to someone - Maybe your friend Ryan? No where was a Rodman jersey mentioned in these threads. Please tell us how you know what trade was made and please do not post for other people unless you disclose such.

This is a very serious situation and you making assumptions without all the facts is going to hurt the concerns of a game used industry.

Before you continue, please advise about the Rodman jersey - Sure looks like you are posting for your friend, Ryan. That is an assumption I can make from your comments about a trade.

[mickeymbz]

Mick Wong, you are friends with Ryan, why don't you contact him and ask him for details. How do you know Mark traded it as used? Where do you get that information? I don't know how Mark sold it and neither do you. Please do not make speculations - Let's have the parties involved comment on the situation.

As for having a letter from a respected authenticator- That is no excuse - I emailed him an eBay listing for the same identical jersey being sold as a customized pro-cut. Instead of standing behind a letter he should have taken the time to look at what I presented to him and then make a decision. Instead he used a letter to defend his item as authentic even though I clearly showed it to him as not being authentic.

You mentioned a Rodman jersey before which makes me think you are posting using information from talking to someone - Maybe your friend Ryan? No where was a Rodman jersey mentioned in these threads. Please tell us how you know what trade was made and please do not post for other people unless you disclose such.

This is a very serious situation and you making assumptions without all the facts is going to hurt the concerns of a game used industry.

Before you continue, please advise about the Rodman jersey - Sure looks like you are posting for your friend, Ryan. That is an assumption I can make from your comments about a trade.
JOE alpert...your use of first and last name is condescending and annoying as posted by many in the past... your ASSumption that we are friends is an assumption,,when you just posted not to assume ..he is an acquaintance whose contacted me in the past with questions.

mick wong
President/ owner of another dude that sells stuff on eBay

[trsent]

250 posts so..? lotta collectors with great collections don't post. .. you yourself tracked the movement.. from ms to LA... I know ryan,, he got scammed. assumption, maybe... but a damn good one


JOE alpert...your use of first and last name is condescending and annoying as posted by many in the past... your ASSumption that we are friends is an assumption,,when you just posted not to assume ..he is an acquaintance whose contacted me in the past with questions.

mick wong
President/ owner of another dude that sells stuff on eBay

I sign my name to every post so people know who is posting - I don't hide behind a user name. Sorry if you don't like that I use my name in every post so everyone clearly sees who is making a post.

In the first post I highlighted above you stated that you know Ryan - So, if you wish to continue to speculate in this thread, why don't you explain how you know someone traded a Rodman jersey as you clearly stated above?

That would help clear up your motives accusing Mark of fraud when there is no proof of this. Otherwise, please do not contribute until you explain yourself of how you know what items were traded for in this deal.

It makes it look as if you have information that has not been revealed in this thread so you really need to disclose how you know this information otherwise it appears you have an agenda that isn't for the best of the industry.

[mickeymbz]

I sign my name to every post so people know who is posting - I don't hide behind a user name. Sorry if you don't like that I use my name in every post so everyone clearly sees who is making a post.

In the first post I highlighted above you stated that you know Ryan - So, if you wish to continue to speculate in this thread, why don't you explain how you know someone traded a Rodman jersey as you clearly stated above?

That would help clear up your motives accusing Mark of fraud when there is no proof of this. Otherwise, please do not contribute until you explain yourself of how you know what items were traded for in this deal.

It makes it look as if you have information that has not been revealed in this thread so you really need to disclose how you know this information otherwise it appears you have an agenda that isn't for the best of the industry.
so use your own first (joe) and last (alpert) name. your trend, as past post show, that when you get anally uptight about something you go that direction of first and last name.does that make u feel like you have authority and an expert?? so use your own name JOE alpert.... I don't give u permission to use mine.. as for loa's ..it seems you take another direction when it comes to another specific company that you, Joe alpert, are an unofficial dealer of. also 250+ posts doesn't make one more knowledgable than others,,,youve got double that...have you posted anything from YOUR collection??? do you have a collection??? seems you are just a seller and a profiter ,,no more no less... that's your part in the industry. your friend mark has another post about shill bidding less than a month ago.
mick president/owner just another dude that sells on eBay

[trsent]

so use your own first (joe) and last (alpert) name. your trend, as past post show, that when you get anally uptight about something you go that direction of first and last name.does that make u feel like you have authority and an expert?? so use your own name JOE alpert.... I don't give u permission to use mine.. as for loa's ..it seems you take another direction when it comes to another specific company that you, Joe alpert, are an unofficial dealer of. also 250+ posts doesn't make one more knowledgable than others,,,youve got double that...have you posted anything from YOUR collection??? do you have a collection??? seems you are just a seller and a profiter ,,no more no less... that's your part in the industry. your friend mark has another post about shill bidding less than a month ago.
mick president/owner just another dude that sells on eBay

So you decide to personally attack me? It is public record on this forum every member's real name - Sorry you don't like that but I like to address people I'm having a discussion with about a serious industry injustice. If you don't wish to be addressed by your real name you shouldn't join a discussion.

I have been a full time sports memorabilia dealer for around 25 years now. It doesn't matter if I am part of this forum to make money for my business or to help protect the integrity of this industry that has been part of my entire adult life from when it became a business at age 16 to now that it is still paying the bills at age 44.

You claim that Mark is my friend. I have not communicated with Mark, Ryan or Dan over this matter at any time over this matter. I do not have a past friendship with any of them.

You fail to address your agenda since you stated earlier that the jersey was part of a trade for a Rodman jersey so I will no longer be able to address your posts until you reveal how you were able to reveal this information without personally communicating with any of those involved from Mark, to Ryan to Dan. Since you have attached Mark, it is a safe guess you and him have not communicated about this so please show some integrity and disclose how you came up with this jersey being part of a trade for a Rodman jersey.

Otherwise your comments do not contribute to the discussion due to the fact that you have communicated with someone involved with this whole situation but you will not disclose your intentions of who you are posting on behalf of.

There has been a serious violation of hobby trust violated and revealed in this discussion and it needed to be addressed with facts and information that can be confirmed.

[mickeymbz]

So you decide to personally attack me? It is public record on this forum every member's real name - Sorry you don't like that but I like to address people I'm having a discussion with about a serious industry injustice. If you don't wish to be addressed by your real name you shouldn't join a discussion.

I have been a full time sports memorabilia dealer for around 25 years now. It doesn't matter if I am part of this forum to make money for my business or to help protect the integrity of this industry that has been part of my entire adult life from when it became a business at age 16 to now that it is still paying the bills at age 44.

You claim that Mark is my friend. I have not communicated with Mark, Ryan or Dan over this matter at any time over this matter. I do not have a past friendship with any of them.

You fail to address your agenda since you stated earlier that the jersey was part of a trade for a Rodman jersey so I will no longer be able to address your posts until you reveal how you were able to reveal this information without personally communicating with any of those involved from Mark, to Ryan to Dan. Since you have attached Mark, it is a safe guess you and him have not communicated about this so please show some integrity and disclose how you came up with this jersey being part of a trade for a Rodman jersey.

Otherwise your comments do not contribute to the discussion due to the fact that you have communicated with someone involved with this whole situation but you will not disclose your intentions of who you are posting on behalf of.

There has been a serious violation of hobby trust violated and revealed in this discussion and it needed to be addressed with facts and information that can be confirmed.
lol.. that's your EXACT response whenever someone else brought up the same annoying trait that you feel to dominate people with your first and last name bit.,, you love to personal attack.. tit for tat JOe alpert
I don't SEE u using everybody elses first and last name Joe alpert ,,only when you get chapped. sorry you take valid points as personal attacks Joe alpert.
mick wong
president/owner just another dude selling on eBay

[mickeymbz]

Oh Vey!! intentions...agendas.. blah blah blah. ryan , just learned he got smoked for that bogus kobe from your post... I asked him did he pay much for it .. he stated he traded a 95-96 bulls home jersey for it.. with excellent provenance .. nothing more nothing less.. He emailed me in the past months my thoughts on the kobe and I expressed my concerns(I guess an email makes him "my friend"),, he chose to believe its real..thats his choice.. thus I know he thought it was real... he posted on ebay believing it real.so take this as an agenda or intention,,,whatev,,just bzzzzzz

mick wong
president/owner just another dude selling on eBay

[trsent]

Oh Vey!! intentions...agendas.. blah blah blah. ryan , just learned he got smoked for that bogus kobe from your post... I asked him did he pay much for it .. he stated he traded a 95-96 bulls home jersey for it.. with excellent provenance .. nothing more nothing less.. He emailed me in the past months my thoughts on the kobe and I expressed my concerns(I guess an email makes him "my friend"),, he chose to believe its real..thats his choice.. thus I know he thought it was real... he posted on ebay believing it real.so take this as an agenda or intention,,,whatev,,just bzzzzzz

mick wong
president/owner just another dude selling on eBay

Thank you for revealing that you have communicated with Ryan since this discussion stated.

You say he just learned he got burned from my post which is odd because before I made my post I emailed him showing him the same exact jersey listed on eBay as a jersey that clearly was not game worn. I guess he didn't believe my email through eBay but he believes me when I posted the facts and proof here on Game Used Universe's discussion forums.

I think what would be best is now for Dan to join this discussion and tell us who submitted this jersey to him for authentication and maybe then he can also explain how he was able to write a letter of authenticity stating the jersey came from an "Impeccable source inside the NBA who has access to players before, during and after games.".

It would also help to know who had the autograph added since it is in question also.

I am glad you were able to add to the discussion tonight. Sorry if you were upset but I just was hoping for the truth to be revealed and I'm sure eventually we will get closer to the truth from this discussion.

I finally would like to mention it doesn't matter how many posts someone has on the forum - I mention how many posts someone has to show they are active on the forum and should reply to this discussion if they are honest and not the party that converted this jersey from a custom made pro-cut to a game used jersey. Showing a member is an active member leads to suspicion if they do not address this discussion which is too bad because somewhere along the line someone did something very bad for the integrity of this industry.

[mickeymbz]

" Sorry you don't like that but I like to address people I'm having a discussion with about a serious industry injustice. If you don't wish to be addressed by your real name you shouldn't join a discussion."

lol...besides the originators of this site.,your the only one that uses your real name Joe Alpert. so I guess everyone who doesn't use their real name shouldn't join a discussion.. lets drop the first last name schtick.. u can call me mick.. that is my real name. .. u wanna use first and last name and feel important,,will that's your call

[cohibasmoker]

Joel - Interesting thread. On the date of the original auction, was/is MSauctions still being run by Mitchell Schumacher?

Jim

PS - So much for LOA's and buying Super-Star jerseys.

[ryanjerseyb]

I honestly bought this jersey thinking it was game worn. I sent it into DC Sports to get their opinion. I was pleased to get the jersey back authenticated. By no means did I know that the jersey was originally purchased from MS Auctions!! If I would have known that, I never would have traded one if my prized Dennis Rodman game worn jerseys for it! Now you can believe me or not, that is the honest to God truth. Now I am out thousands of dollars and am having my name bashed for no reason! The jersey has been pulled from Ebay because of the new knowledge that was brought to my attention. Mr Ceniceros should not be being bashed either. The real crook here is that shady Character out of Wisconsin. This is a real problem we have in the hobby right now is people altering jerseys! This should not happen! I really appreciate mickeymbz coming to my defense when I don't even know the guy. It means a lot and I believe speaks loudly on this whole situation.
Check out my website www.nba-game-worn-jerseys.com

[CPuente57]

The only question I have then, and I'm not accusing anyone or anything, just curious, why Dan would authenticate the jersey and keep that "The above mentioned jersey shows accurate wear and was obtained by an impeccable source inside the NBA who has access to player before, during and after games" line in the LOA? I assumed all of his stuff with their LOA came directly from Dan and his sources?

[cohibasmoker]

I honestly bought this jersey thinking it was game worn. I sent it into DC Sports to get their opinion. I was pleased to get the jersey back authenticated. By no means did I know that the jersey was originally purchased from MS Auctions!! If I would have known that, I never would have traded one if my prized Dennis Rodman game worn jerseys for it! Now you can believe me or not, that is the honest to God truth. Now I am out thousands of dollars and am having my name bashed for no reason! The jersey has been pulled from Ebay because of the new knowledge that was brought to my attention. Mr Ceniceros should not be being bashed either. The real crook here is that shady Character out of Wisconsin. This is a real problem we have in the hobby right now is people altering jerseys! This should not happen! I really appreciate mickeymbz coming to my defense when I don't even know the guy. It means a lot and I believe speaks loudly on this whole situation.
Check out my website www.nba-game-worn-jerseys.com

You may have some recourse. It would take some work on your end and it would depend on how far you want to take it.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/mitchell-schumacher-pleads-guilty-mail-fraud-wednesday-illinois-federal-court-article-1.982256

[ryanjerseyb]

Mitch just contacted me with a threat. He acts like nobody knows who he is! LMAO!! I just hate that this industry is soo Corrupt!! You don't know who to trust!

[ChrisCavalier]

A few observations:

1) Thank you Joel for posting in a manner consistent with the forum rules and for keeping the thread on track without speculation, etc.

2) Mick, please refrain from any personal attacks. Also, regarding your comment to Joel that "so use your own name JOE alpert.... I don't give u permission to use mine.." all members are required to register with their first and last name along with contact information. Unlike some sites, we do this so there is certain level of accountability and we are confident this eliminates many unsubstantiated posts that would likely occur if people are allowed to post anonymously. Every member's first and last name is listed on the site. That is part of your agreement to being part of the community. I know you can be very impassioned in your posts but please make sure all future posts are congruent with the forum rules.

3) At this point, I agree that those involved with the situation are the ones most capable of shedding further light on the situation. We will be monitoring this thread and hope the others involved will post.

Please feel free to email me directly for any questions regarding the forum rules. I would like to make sure this thread stays focused on answering some legitimate questions and sticks with substantiated information.

Thanks,
Chris

[mickeymbz]

I The real crook here is that shady Character out of Wisconsin.

Msauction sold the shirt to someone in Louisiana (surprise where Mmontes lives) Msauction sold the shirt as non-game worn. Montero bought it as such knowing it is merely an issued. Montero knowingly sold a pro-cut to you as an issued for something of value (actually a real rookie would command more than a worm shirt). The deception originates outta LA.

[mickeymbz]

A few observations:

1) Thank you Joel for posting in a manner consistent with the forum rules and for keeping the thread on track without speculation, etc.

2) Mick, please refrain from any personal attacks. Also, regarding your comment to Joel that "so use your own name JOE alpert.... I don't give u permission to use mine.." all members are required to register with their first and last name along with contact information. Unlike some sites, we do this so there is certain level of accountability and we are confident this eliminates many unsubstantiated posts that would likely occur if people are allowed to post anonymously. Every member's first and last name is listed on the site. That is part of your agreement to being part of the community. I know you can be very impassioned in your posts but please make sure all future posts are congruent with the forum rules.

3) At this point, I agree that those involved with the situation are the ones most capable of shedding further light on the situation. We will be monitoring this thread and hope the others involved will post.

Please feel free to email me directly for any questions regarding the forum rules. I would like to make sure this thread stays focused on answering some legitimate questions and sticks with substantiated information.

Thanks,
Chris

Chris,, please see past post concerning his use of first and last name. As all members are required to register with first and last name has nothing to do with him using it in a passive aggressive manner to expressive condescension on his level of personal attacks. IF people wish to know my name they can look it up. I don't need to be reminded every sentence what my name is. PLEASe be fair when you levy warnings of who's personal attacking.
Mick W

[Takuleechch]

Has anybody emailed Dan? He's very good at returning emails.

[mickeymbz]

Mitch just contacted me with a threat. He acts like nobody knows who he is! LMAO!! I just hate that this industry is soo Corrupt!! You don't know who to trust!

lesson to be learned.. profiteers pray on collectors and the uninformed

[trsent]

So, I contact the seller from the game used jersey on eBay with the following question: "Dear jerseyking55,

Are you sure this is a true rookie Kobe game worn jersey? It looks identical to the Kobe jersey sold two months ago in eBay item #271252678611 that was sold as a blank pro-cut that was professionally lettered."

I receive the following reply shortly after: "Yes, The jersey is sourced from DC Sports as you can see from the LOA"


I honestly bought this jersey thinking it was game worn. I sent it into DC Sports to get their opinion. I was pleased to get the jersey back authenticated. By no means did I know that the jersey was originally purchased from MS Auctions!! If I would have known that, I never would have traded one if my prized Dennis Rodman game worn jerseys for it! Now you can believe me or not, that is the honest to God truth. Now I am out thousands of dollars and am having my name bashed for no reason! The jersey has been pulled from Ebay because of the new knowledge that was brought to my attention. Mr Ceniceros should not be being bashed either. The real crook here is that shady Character out of Wisconsin. This is a real problem we have in the hobby right now is people altering jerseys! This should not happen! I really appreciate mickeymbz coming to my defense when I don't even know the guy. It means a lot and I believe speaks loudly on this whole situation.
Check out my website www.nba-game-worn-jerseys.com (http://www.nba-game-worn-jerseys.com)

Ryan, your original email answering my question about this jersey states the jersey is "Sourced from DC Sports". I am confused. If you traded for the jersey from Mark, how could it have been sourced from DC Sports?

Mark has emailed me a couple of times today and I told him that he needs to post what he emailed me on this discussion. One sentence from Mark's emails that seems important enough for me to cut and paste:

"The only possibility that Ryan thought it couldbe game worn was that I was somehow mistaken or unknowledgeable of the difference between procut and game worn. I will repeat, I told him upfront the jersey was a PROCUT. I told him upfront the jersey was NOT sold to me as game worn."

Sounds like a big case of someone's not telling the truth here. I hope Mark joins the discussions with all the information he emailed me because his story is much different than Ryan's.

Dan's insight would also help this discussion.

[ryanjerseyb]

I told you from the start that I had no idea that this jersey came from MS Auctions! I really wish you people would find something better to do with your time than to keep beating a dead horse. The jersey is not in the market any more. End if discussion! Find something else to talk about now.
I will state this for the last time, I was told this jersey came from a collector over seas. I have no reason to lie. All I did was send the jersey in to see if it could be authenticated. Seriously, find something else to talk about. The jersey had been taken off of the market so there is no harm done, other than the fact that my wallet is Significantly lighter at the moment in the aftermath if this whole Debacle.

[Takuleechch]

I told you from the start that I had no idea that this jersey came from MS Auctions! I really wish you people would find something better to do with your time than to keep beating a dead horse. The jersey is not in the market any more. End if discussion! Find something else to talk about now.
I will state this for the last time, I was told this jersey came from a collector over seas. I have no reason to lie. All I did was send the jersey in to see if it could be authenticated. Seriously, find something else to talk about. The jersey had been taken off of the market so there is no harm done, other than the fact that my wallet is Significantly lighter at the moment in the aftermath if this whole Debacle.

No offense but that post is a bit ridiculous.

[CPuente57]

I'm more interested in Dan's response to the authentication of this jersey. Hope he comes out and responds to this thread

[yanks12025]

First off, if it was sold as a blank who was the person that lettered it.

[ryanjerseyb]

MS auctions lettered it.

[DConLA]

The integrity of this hobby is the main reason we started to post on this site. Ryan contacted us to have the jersey signed by Kobe and to authenticate the jersey. We were told that the jersey was sourced directly from the Lakers and based on that info and the fact that it matched all the identifiers that we know from that year lead us to conclude that it came from the Lakers. That is why we stated from an impeccable source just like all the jerseys I get because you can’t get any better then the Lakers. I started to post on GUU to make the hobby aware of all the Kobe fakes that are out there and I have always been able to spot a rookie fake but this jersey even fooled me. We are removing our authentication from this jersey and will be updating our data base.

Dan dceniceros248@yahoo.com 323.257.4898

[trsent]

The integrity of this hobby is the main reason we started to post on this site. Ryan contacted us to have the jersey signed by Kobe and to authenticate the jersey. We were told that the jersey was sourced directly from the Lakers and based on that info and the fact that it matched all the identifiers that we know from that year lead us to conclude that it came from the Lakers. That is why we stated from an impeccable source just like all the jerseys I get because you can’t get any better then the Lakers. I started to post on GUU to make the hobby aware of all the Kobe fakes that are out there and I have always been able to spot a rookie fake but this jersey even fooled me. We are removing our authentication from this jersey and will be updating our data base.

Dan dceniceros248@yahoo.com 323.257.4898

Dan, can you answer some specific questions:

1. How much did you charge Ryan for the autograph and letter?

2. Did you personally witness Kobe autograph this jersey?

3. I didn't try to match it up, but I have been told the font on the back of the jersey doesn't match Kobe gamers. You are regarded as the expert - Can you confirm that the lettering font is an exact match to Kobe rookie gamers?

4. If you state it came from an impeccable source, is that source Ryan or Mark? I don't understand how you use that term but don't have a source from within The Los Angeles Lakers organization as another dealer/collector is the source that has access to players before, during and after games? This is very confusing. How many other Kobe jerseys have you written letters for using this expression believing someone telling you it came from an impeccable source?

It is a concern if you take people's word for game used items that you then write letters for their statement. This confuses the whole industry.

My questions are all very important to be answered.

[DoctorLoomis]

Joel, your last post is spot on. I have nothing to do with this scenario nor am I accusing anyone of anything....but as a concerned collector and hobbyist, this question MUST be answered: 4. "If you state it came from an impeccable source, is that source Ryan or Mark? I don't understand how you use that term but don't have a source from within The Los Angeles Lakers organization as another dealer/collector is the source that has access to players before, during and after games? This is very confusing. How many other Kobe jerseys have you written letters for using this expression believing someone telling you it came from an impeccable source?"

[CPuente57]

I agree, I always assumed with jerseys with the D.C. Sports LOA that Dan got the items directly from his Lakers source himself. I didn't realize D.C. Sports authenticated outside items. Not saying it's not their right to do that, just something I assumed.

[cohibasmoker]

Dan, can you answer some specific questions:

1. How much did you charge Ryan for the autograph and letter?

2. Did you personally witness Kobe autograph this jersey?

3. I didn't try to match it up, but I have been told the font on the back of the jersey doesn't match Kobe gamers. You are regarded as the expert - Can you confirm that the lettering font is an exact match to Kobe rookie gamers?

4. If you state it came from an impeccable source, is that source Ryan or Mark? I don't understand how you use that term but don't have a source from within The Los Angeles Lakers organization as another dealer/collector is the source that has access to players before, during and after games? This is very confusing. How many other Kobe jerseys have you written letters for using this expression believing someone telling you it came from an impeccable source?

It is a concern if you take people's word for game used items that you then write letters for their statement. This confuses the whole industry.

My questions are all very important to be answered.

Seems to me the only difference is the LOA

TIMELINE

August 4, 2013 - masauction - advertised as "un-used/worn game-issued"";
October 11, 2013 - jerseyking55 - reappears with LOA and advertised as "game worn".

Joel - Is this timeline correct?

Jim

[trsent]

So a time frame is set, the original auction selling this jersey as a pro-cut was ended on eBay August 4th, 2013 while the jersey was listed as a game used autographed jersey with a letter of authenticity on September 14th, 2013.

That means in about a 40 day time frame this jersey went from Milwaukee, who states they shipped it to Louisiana, to where they state it was shipped to Florida and somewhere during this time the jersey was supposedly autographed by Kobe Bryant and it was authenticated as game used by an authenticator in California.


Seems to me the only difference is the LOA

TIMELINE

August 4, 2013 - masauction - advertised as "un-used/worn game-issued"";
October 11, 2013 - jerseyking55 - reappears with LOA and advertised as "game worn".

Joel - Is this timeline correct?

Jim

I showed the timeline from when masauction ended it on eBay and when jerseyking55 listed it on eBay in post #3 which I copied above. The LOA and the autograph on the back of the jersey were new from the first listing to the second.

[cohibasmoker]

I showed the timeline from when masauction ended it on eBay and when jerseyking55 listed it on eBay in post #3 which I copied above. The LOA and the autograph on the back of the jersey were new from the first listing to the second.

So if it is the same jersey - the issue is the LOA.

[trsent]

So if it is the same jersey - the issue is the LOA.

I'd say the LOA is an issue and the autograph is a concern. Who took a jersey sold as not game used and told someone it was game used? There are so many questions about the history between when masauction shipped it out and jerseyking55 listed it on eBay that it is a huge concern for the industry as a whole.

[Takuleechch]

I would think the auto was legit. Dan has access to Kobe and psa only did a quick opinion which isn't always accurate.

[mmonte4]

Mick, I am disappointed in you.

Mick's hatred of me stems from this thread:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=41682

I invite everyone to give that thread a read and I think you will conclude that my skepticism over the issue was fair and well founded.

Afterwards, Mick offered me $700 for a Rambis Lakers warm-up I owned. I declined his offer and told him that I believed it was worth much more. I ended up submitting it to auction and it went for $4k.

Those are the only two interactions I've ever had with the guy.

I am even more disappointed in GUU. The GUU mods continue to allow character assassinations as seen in this thread. There is a big difference between asking questions and engaging in personal attacks. As such, my next post will address the situation at hand and will be my last on GUU.

I'm not a hard person to find, just email me at klhunter@yahoo.com

[trsent]

I would think the auto was legit. Dan has access to Kobe and psa only did a quick opinion which isn't always accurate.

How does Dan have access to Kobe that he can get his autograph upon request? I have been told this isn't the first time a major authenticator has not passed a Kobe autograph linked to Dan.

If you are going to defend Dan's relationship with Kobe Bryant please explain to me what that relationship is as Dan recently wrote a letter that a jersey came from a source with Los Angeles Lakers team access and it turns out that was not true.

How does Dan have access to Kobe Bryant on demand?

I have seen more Michael Jordan autographs that were signed in the locker room but not signed by Michael Jordan. Does Dan have Kobe's cell phone number and when someone pays him he calls Kobe and Kobe tells him to come over to sign his jersey?

[trsent]

Mitch Schumacher (masauction) sent me a copy of an email he received from Ryan just five days ago. I find this email interesting as I wonder what the intentions are.


From: ryanjerseyb@aol.com (ryanjerseyb@aol.com)
To: masauction@aol.com (masauction@aol.com)
Sent: 10/7/2013 12:09:29 P.M. Central Daylight Time
Subj: Jerseys

If I send you a pro cut Tom Gugliotta 2002-2003 throwback Suns jersey and anAmare Stoudemire 2002-2003 same style throwback, could you change theStoudemire over to the pro cut jersey? The name on the back and the number?
Sent from my iPhone=

[abstractheory]

"If I send you a pro cut Tom Gugliotta 2002-2003 throwback Suns jersey and anAmare Stoudemire 2002-2003 same style throwback, could you change theStoudemire over to the pro cut jersey? The name on the back and the number?"

:eek:

[mmonte4]

The Kobe jersey was offered to me by a French collector in late July/early August. We went back and forth exchanging emails and his communication was terrible - big delays in response time. Shortly after, Mitch listed the same jersey on Ebay. I offered him $1,500 and he declined. He said he needed $3,000. I said I could do $2,200, pay immediately, and through paypal gift. He accepted.

About a month ago, I offered Ryan the Kobe jersey in a trade for a jersey that he bought for $3k from Jim Thomas several years ago. I sent him the pics and told him up front that I purchased the Kobe as a procut and it was not sold to me as game worn. Before finalizing the trade, we noticed that the NOB was not consistent with Kobe rookies sold by GF. Ryan wanted to go through with the trade anyway.

Ryan lists the unsigned, unauthenticated jersey on Ebay for $20k.

According to Ryan:
After making the trade, Ryan contacts Dan (they had done business before) about getting the jersey signed and possibly authenticated. Dan asks for photos of the jersey and Ryan sends. After reviewing the photos, Dan says he needs the jersey in-hand and that the signature and authentication will be $750-2000 and need to be paid by money order (I don't remember the exact cost Ryan told me but it was in that range and was at an inflated price compared to his standard $200/sig and $150/authentication). Ryan sends in the jersey and payment and gets it back a few weeks later signed and authenticated.

Ryan updates his listing on Ebay to signed and authenticated by DC.

Mitch must have seen the listing because he contacts me out of the blue and asks if Ryan got the jersey from me and tells me to get him to take it off ebay. I tell him that he did get it from me and that I was upfront about it being procut and unworn. Regardingly the listing, I tell him that once its out of my hands, I'm not responsible for it and cannot make him remove his listing.

My opinion is that Ryan was excited about the jersey and wanted to list it immediately on Ebay to showcase (he listed it before it was even in-hand). The sig and DC papers only added to his display. He never mentioned shopping it or sending it in to auction. He actually mentioned keeping it and displaying it next to another Kobe he has so that they could be displayed side by side- one signed on the front, and one signed on the back. With the $20k price tag, I do not believe his intention was to sell, but rather draw attention to his other listings.

Ryan has done the right thing here and removed the Ebay listing.

A mistake was made, let's move on.

My correspondence with the French collector was thru email and Facebook messages. My correspondence with Mitch was thru email. My correspondence with Ryan was through text message. In short, there is record of everything.

Hope this helps shed some light on the situation.

[Takuleechch]

How does Dan have access to Kobe that he can get his autograph upon request? I have been told this isn't the first time a major authenticator has not passed a Kobe autograph linked to Dan.

If you are going to defend Dan's relationship with Kobe Bryant please explain to me what that relationship is as Dan recently wrote a letter that a jersey came from a source with Los Angeles Lakers team access and it turns out that was not true.

How does Dan have access to Kobe Bryant on demand?

I have seen more Michael Jordan autographs that were signed in the locker room but not signed by Michael Jordan. Does Dan have Kobe's cell phone number and when someone pays him he calls Kobe and Kobe tells him to come over to sign his jersey?

Wow calm down. I was just saying it's not like psa can't be wrong sometimes, especially on a quick opinion.

And I'm sure you know that Dan has more access to Kobe than anyone else on this forum. I'm not a cheerleader for either and it's obvious something wrong happened with this jersey.

But In my humble opinion, it's possible the auto is legit. Possible.

The email you just shared is very sketchy. The fact he is saying we should stop discussing the topic

[trsent]

The Kobe jersey was offered to me by a French collector in late July/early August. We went back and forth exchanging emails and his communication was terrible - big delays in response time. Shortly after, Mitch listed the same jersey on Ebay. I offered him $1,500 and he declined. He said he needed $3,000. I said I could do $2,200, pay immediately, and through paypal gift. He accepted.

Interesting take on the whole situation, Mark. The only part I cannot understand if you say you were offered the jersey on Facebook by a French collector but Mitch told me he had this jersey in his inventory for the past three years. I assume the French collector had a similar but different jersey.

[Takuleechch]

The only real problem is the COA. Dan made a mistake. Every company/authenticator etc makes mistakes. While it may have lowered DCs credibility we all know that we need to do are due diligence before purchasing anything.

Good on Joel for spotting this. It will only make is all more aware.

[trsent]

Wow calm down. I was just saying it's not like psa can't be wrong sometimes, especially on a quick opinion.

And I'm sure you know that Dan has more access to Kobe than anyone else on this forum. I'm not a cheerleader for either and it's obvious something wrong happened with this jersey.

But In my humble opinion, it's possible the auto is legit. Possible.

The email you just shared is very sketchy. The fact he is saying we should stop discussing the topic

Sorry, I didn't mean to jump down your throat I just think maybe the access Dan has to Kobe may be exaggerated just like Dan's letters stating items came from someone with locker room and player access which is now questionable for all letters he has wrote as he was caught this time making a statement that isn't true - How many other times could this have happened?

For that matter the comment Mark made that Dan charged more than he usually charges to Ryan for this letter raises a question - Why? If this is true, why would Dan charge more for a letter than usual?

[trsent]

The only real problem is the COA. Dan made a mistake. Every company/authenticator etc makes mistakes. While it may have lowered DCs credibility we all know that we need to do are due diligence before purchasing anything.

Good on Joel for spotting this. It will only make is all more aware.

Read Dan's letter - If you were not aware of the situation wouldn't you think the letter was leading you to believe Dan acquired this jersey himself from a Lakers source?

[Takuleechch]

Sorry, I didn't mean to jump down your throat I just think maybe the access Dan has to Kobe may be exaggerated just like Dan's letters stating items came from someone with locker room and player access which is now questionable for all letters he has wrote as he was caught this time making a statement that isn't true - How many other times could this have happened?

For that matter the comment Mark made that Dan charged more than he usually charges to Ryan for this letter raises a question - Why? If this is true, why would Dan charge more for a letter than usual?

Yea very weird. I've only ever had good experiences with Dan...and only ever had bad ones with mmonte lol.

Hopefully Ryan can comment on the email you listed and Dan on the questions you posed. Interesting, and scary, weekend reading haha

[Takuleechch]

Read Dan's letter - If you were not aware of the situation wouldn't you think the letter was leading you to believe Dan acquired this jersey himself from a Lakers source?

Yes the wording is very "legal" in the sense it can be construed either way but I assumed every letter with that wording meant he got it himself until this thread. That's why it's a little scary

[Phil316]

The infamous Jim Thomas aka Hoop-Style. So you traded a fake for a fake lol.


The Kobe jersey was offered to me by a French collector in late July/early August. We went back and forth exchanging emails and his communication was terrible - big delays in response time. Shortly after, Mitch listed the same jersey on Ebay. I offered him $1,500 and he declined. He said he needed $3,000. I said I could do $2,200, pay immediately, and through paypal gift. He accepted.

About a month ago, I offered Ryan the Kobe jersey in a trade for a jersey that he bought for $3k from Jim Thomas several years ago. I sent him the pics and told him up front that I purchased the Kobe as a procut and it was not sold to me as game worn. Before finalizing the trade, we noticed that the NOB was not consistent with Kobe rookies sold by GF. Ryan wanted to go through with the trade anyway.

Ryan lists the unsigned, unauthenticated jersey on Ebay for $20k.

According to Ryan:
After making the trade, Ryan contacts Dan (they had done business before) about getting the jersey signed and possibly authenticated. Dan asks for photos of the jersey and Ryan sends. After reviewing the photos, Dan says he needs the jersey in-hand and that the signature and authentication will be $750-2000 and need to be paid by money order (I don't remember the exact cost Ryan told me but it was in that range and was at an inflated price compared to his standard $200/sig and $150/authentication). Ryan sends in the jersey and payment and gets it back a few weeks later signed and authenticated.

Ryan updates his listing on Ebay to signed and authenticated by DC.

Mitch must have seen the listing because he contacts me out of the blue and asks if Ryan got the jersey from me and tells me to get him to take it off ebay. I tell him that he did get it from me and that I was upfront about it being procut and unworn. Regardingly the listing, I tell him that once its out of my hands, I'm not responsible for it and cannot make him remove his listing.

My opinion is that Ryan was excited about the jersey and wanted to list it immediately on Ebay to showcase (he listed it before it was even in-hand). The sig and DC papers only added to his display. He never mentioned shopping it or sending it in to auction. He actually mentioned keeping it and displaying it next to another Kobe he has so that they could be displayed side by side- one signed on the front, and one signed on the back. With the $20k price tag, I do not believe his intention was to sell, but rather draw attention to his other listings.

Ryan has done the right thing here and removed the Ebay listing.

A mistake was made, let's move on.

My correspondence with the French collector was thru email and Facebook messages. My correspondence with Mitch was thru email. My correspondence with Ryan was through text message. In short, there is record of everything.

Hope this helps shed some light on the situation.

[DoctorLoomis]

Like it or not Joel is asking some tough questions. Someone's seat is getting hotter by the minute......

[ryanjerseyb]

Haha!!! You sob's are too much!! I sent that email to ms auctions to F with him!! He is the one that is altering jerseys, he has been doing it for years!! I did it to prove a point!! Thank you for re posting my email to prove it for me!! Haha!! I swear you all have no F'n life!!

[Phil316]

Haha!!! You sob's are too much!! I sent that email to ms auctions to F with him!! He is the one that is altering jerseys, he has been doing it for years!! I did it to prove a point!! Thank you for re posting my email to prove it for me!! Haha!! I swear you all have no F'n life!!

Actually it is quite opposite. A lot of the members in this post are very well respected in the game used collecting circle as well as their private lives. We all band together when we can especially if we see doctored/forged items being sold as authentic. That is one of the reasons this site is around. You come on here arguing with people and trying to promote your website without even reading the rules of the forum.

[ryanjerseyb]

I'm not arguing with anyone. It was brought to my attention that a jersey that I had Acquired is not real. I was duped. I bought a jersey that I thought was game worn. When I got it from Mark it looked legit and not altered. He told me he got it from a French collector. I sent it in to get authenticated and it came back legit. Then I get a link sent to me from Mitch saying he is the one who put the name on the back of the jersey. I'm not coming on here to argue with anyone and trust me guys I don't need this forum to promote my website on here. I didn't know it wasn't allowed. I know know. I apologize. My integrity is being questioned, that is the only reason I came on here is to defend my name.
This is the last time you will hear from me.
You all take care.

[trsent]

Haha!!! You sob's are too much!! I sent that email to ms auctions to F with him!! He is the one that is altering jerseys, he has been doing it for years!! I did it to prove a point!! Thank you for re posting my email to prove it for me!! Haha!! I swear you all have no F'n life!!

Days before the Kobe jersey's issues became public you emailed Mitch to mess with him? I find that hard to understand.


I'm not arguing with anyone. It was brought to my attention that a jersey that I had Acquired is not real. I was duped. I bought a jersey that I thought was game worn. When I got it from Mark it looked legit and not altered. He told me he got it from a French collector. I sent it in to get authenticated and it came back legit. Then I get a link sent to me from Mitch saying he is the one who put the name on the back of the jersey. I'm not coming on here to argue with anyone and trust me guys I don't need this forum to promote my website on here. I didn't know it wasn't allowed. I know know. I apologize. My integrity is being questioned, that is the only reason I came on here is to defend my name.
This is the last time you will hear from me.
You all take care.

So you are saying Mark traded you a $3000 - $4000 jersey for a $20,000 jersey and you thought it was game used and Mark misrepresented it? Mark says otherwise so I am confused. Who is telling the truth?

Is Mark telling the truth that you paid somewhere between $750 - $2000 for the authentication and the autograph? If so, did you question why the fees were so much more than usually charged?

This forum is to inform and educate dealers and collectors so the exact history of this jersey in a forty day period is very interesting for us all to learn about so we can avoid issues such as this in the future.

[cohibasmoker]

The Kobe jersey was offered to me by a French collector in late July/early August. We went back and forth exchanging emails and his communication was terrible - big delays in response time. Shortly after, Mitch listed the same jersey on Ebay. I offered him $1,500 and he declined. He said he needed $3,000. I said I could do $2,200, pay immediately, and through paypal gift. He accepted.

About a month ago, I offered Ryan the Kobe jersey in a trade for a jersey that he bought for $3k from Jim Thomas several years ago. I sent him the pics and told him up front that I purchased the Kobe as a procut and it was not sold to me as game worn. Before finalizing the trade, we noticed that the NOB was not consistent with Kobe rookies sold by GF. Ryan wanted to go through with the trade anyway.

Ryan lists the unsigned, unauthenticated jersey on Ebay for $20k.

According to Ryan:
After making the trade, Ryan contacts Dan (they had done business before) about getting the jersey signed and possibly authenticated. Dan asks for photos of the jersey and Ryan sends. After reviewing the photos, Dan says he needs the jersey in-hand and that the signature and authentication will be $750-2000 and need to be paid by money order (I don't remember the exact cost Ryan told me but it was in that range and was at an inflated price compared to his standard $200/sig and $150/authentication). Ryan sends in the jersey and payment and gets it back a few weeks later signed and authenticated.

Ryan updates his listing on Ebay to signed and authenticated by DC.

Mitch must have seen the listing because he contacts me out of the blue and asks if Ryan got the jersey from me and tells me to get him to take it off ebay. I tell him that he did get it from me and that I was upfront about it being procut and unworn. Regardingly the listing, I tell him that once its out of my hands, I'm not responsible for it and cannot make him remove his listing.

My opinion is that Ryan was excited about the jersey and wanted to list it immediately on Ebay to showcase (he listed it before it was even in-hand). The sig and DC papers only added to his display. He never mentioned shopping it or sending it in to auction. He actually mentioned keeping it and displaying it next to another Kobe he has so that they could be displayed side by side- one signed on the front, and one signed on the back. With the $20k price tag, I do not believe his intention was to sell, but rather draw attention to his other listings.

Ryan has done the right thing here and removed the Ebay listing.

A mistake was made, let's move on.

My correspondence with the French collector was thru email and Facebook messages. My correspondence with Mitch was thru email. My correspondence with Ryan was through text message. In short, there is record of everything.

Hope this helps shed some light on the situation.

I'm not defending anyone but on the surface, this sounds right. Haven't we all purchased items from different sources that we feel may be different than advertised? What to do? In this case, Ryan sent the jersey to be authenticated, paid a hefty sum and in the end, it appears the opinion was worthless.

Just an opinion (LOL).

Jim

[CPuente57]

I think the biggest thing to come out of this is finding out the wording of the LOA's which from what I've seen have the same wording on every item with a DC Sports LOA might not mean what everyone thought it meant. It's like what was said earlier, how does anyone know now, what DC Sports Items were sourced directly from the Lakers or from a 3rd party's word that it was sourced from the Lakers. I think from now on, it needs to be more clear, and if it was from a 3rd party, the "comes from an impeccable source who has access to players" needs to be left out. I'm not trying to bash Dan but it just sucks, because it does put a little doubt in all jerseys with a DC Sports LOA, in light in this find.

[Phil316]

I think the biggest thing to come out of this is finding out the wording of the LOA's which from what I've seen have the same wording on every item with a DC Sports LOA might not mean what everyone thought it meant. It's like what was said earlier, how does anyone know now, what DC Sports Items were sourced directly from the Lakers or from a 3rd party's word that it was sourced from the Lakers. I think from now on, it needs to be more clear, and if it was from a 3rd party, the "comes from an impeccable source who has access to players" needs to be left out. I'm not trying to bash Dan but it just sucks, because it does put a little doubt in all jerseys with a DC Sports LOA, in light in this find.

I agree think of the money people have spent on Kobe Bryant game used jerseys. One would think it would taint the value when this story gets out. As a collector I now feel all of his jerseys should be questioned as we don't know how many more of these are floating around.

[DConLA]

I just want to make clear that this is an isolated incident as we just barley started to authenticate Lakers items that were acquired outside our network. We mention in all of our letters on items that come directly from us that the items are obtained from an impeccable source because we know where they come from. We have a standard letter that we put on all of our items and when we issued the letter to Ryan we just used our standard letter. Ryan and Mark are not impeccable sources that we use to acquire anything. We are correcting our mistake and are taking measures so that this will never happen again. That is why we are updating our data base to include a different option style letter and as always only items that come directly from my contacts on the team will receive our standard letter.




Dan dceniceros248@yahoo.com 323.257.4898

[DConLA]

That is why we are updating our data base to include a different option style letter and as always only items that come directly from my contacts on the team will receive our standard letter.

I meant to say different opinion style letter.

[trsent]

I just want to make clear that this is an isolated incident as we just barley started to authenticate Lakers items that were acquired outside our network. We mention in all of our letters on items that come directly from us that the items are obtained from an impeccable source because we know where they come from. We have a standard letter that we put on all of our items and when we issued the letter to Ryan we just used our standard letter. Ryan and Mark are not impeccable sources that we use to acquire anything. We are correcting our mistake and are taking measures so that this will never happen again. That is why we are updating our data base to include a different option style letter and as always only items that come directly from my contacts on the team will receive our standard letter.


Dan dceniceros248@yahoo.com 323.257.4898


That is why we are updating our data base to include a different option style letter and as always only items that come directly from my contacts on the team will receive our standard letter.

I meant to say different opinion style letter.

I asked you four questions - Would you please take the time to answer them? If you avoid these questions it will appear you are hiding something.

Here are the four questions I previously asked:

1. How much did you charge Ryan for the autograph and letter?

2. Did you personally witness Kobe autograph this jersey?

3. I didn't try to match it up, but I have been told the font on the back of the jersey doesn't match Kobe gamers. You are regarded as the expert - Can you confirm that the lettering font is an exact match to Kobe rookie gamers?

4. If you state it came from an impeccable source, is that source Ryan or Mark? I don't understand how you use that term but don't have a source from within The Los Angeles Lakers organization as another dealer/collector is the source that has access to players before, during and after games? This is very confusing. How many other Kobe jerseys have you written letters for using this expression believing someone telling you it came from an impeccable source?

[trsent]

That is why we are updating our data base to include a different option style letter and as always only items that come directly from my contacts on the team will receive our standard letter.

Dan dceniceros248@yahoo.com 323.257.4898

Also, you mention you have "contacts" on the team - Do multiple contacts with the Los Angeles Lakers sell you game used equipment? Not just a ball boy, there are several contacts who supply you with numerous Kobe Bryant jerseys every year plus other players jerseys?

[trsent]

I just want to make clear that this is an isolated incident as we just barley started to authenticate Lakers items that were acquired outside our network.

Dan dceniceros248@yahoo.com 323.257.4898

Also, not to beat a dead horse, but it seems very strange - This is the first time ever you have authenticated an item not from your "contacts" at The Los Angeles Lakers?

Every other item for sale or privately owned with a D. C. Sports letter was obtained from your network?

I find that impossible to believe as I have found most major auction houses send game used Lakers jersey for your letters. This can't be from your "network" as they take consignments, right? Please elaborate.

I can't believe this is the first of all the items you authenticated outside of your "network" and you got caught making a major error? Why don't you also explain what your "network" is.

[akrover]

Having backread the thread, the thing that scares me the most is that, had a little bit of intelligence/common sense been used, Joel might not have uncovered this Had Ryan only waited until the august listing was purged from the ebay completed listings database, with this letter, it could have easily been put into an auction and someone would have been burned BIG time. At least (it appears) that the name font is off and someone might have caught that. But if it was right? There would be nothing, or no one, to impeach this jersey. There must be so much of this bogus stuff out there. Thank you for making this an issues and pressing it, Joel. Excellent work.

[slam]

The moral of the story, if you want a legit Kobe stick will Meigray.

[sportscentury]

I have just spent some time catching up on this thread and trying to digest all of the issues that have been raised. Joel and I may not always see eye to eye, but he has been very fair in his approach here and his questions seem quite reasonable.

[Phil316]

The moral of the story, if you want a legit Kobe stick will Meigray.

I agree.

[trsent]

Having backread the thread, the thing that scares me the most is that, had a little bit of intelligence/common sense been used, Joel might not have uncovered this Had Ryan only waited until the august listing was purged from the ebay completed listings database, with this letter, it could have easily been put into an auction and someone would have been burned BIG time. At least (it appears) that the name font is off and someone might have caught that. But if it was right? There would be nothing, or no one, to impeach this jersey. There must be so much of this bogus stuff out there. Thank you for making this an issues and pressing it, Joel. Excellent work.

Thanks for your comments.

I didn't mention this theory as I have learned if I educate criminals it helps make their business stronger. The first thought I had when I uncovered this situation was why wouldn't they have waited as you suggested but I didn't suggest it as you did as I'm not here to educate the criminals.

[trsent]

I was thinking while lying in bed that there is a paper trail to help answer some of the questions that are being asked.

Mark, Ryan and Dan - You all have text messages and email between each other about this jersey? Why don't you post these to show the history that is being disputed? Just take screenshots of any text messages or emails about this jersey and publish them on the forum. That way you can clear your name.

I would like to see proof that the jersey was sold as game used or pro-cut between Ryan and Mark. That will clear a lot up for us. Then I'd love to see the communication between Ryan and Dan including what the price was charged for the authentication and signature.

If no one has anything to hide this shouldn't be a big deal to post and at this point none of the three parties involved have given any proof they were innocent other than excuses and attacks on each other.

I'm still waiting for Dan to take the time to answer the several questions I posed asking him. Avoiding these questions raises doubt about this item and possibly others over the years from the history of game used certified items to autographs alleged to be hand signed by Kobe Bryant. Please review each post and advise.

[trsent]

Email I sent just now to Dan, Mark and Ryan since they none of them have followed up on the forum in the past day:

From: Joel Alpert[mailto:joel@alpert.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 12:02 AM
To: 'dceniceros248@yahoo.com'; 'klhunter@yahoo.com';'ryanjerseyb@aol.com'
Subject: Unanswered Questions Still on Game Used Universe's Forum

Hey guys, lots ofunanswered questions still waiting for answers on the Game Used Universe Forum:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=57641&page=5 (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=57641&page=5)

I have requestedthat all of you post the following to help clear you name as being the one inthe wrongdoing for this situation that is a major black eye to the hobby:

Post #77: “I was thinking while lying in bed thatthere is a paper trail to help answer some of the questions that are beingasked.

Mark, Ryan and Dan - You all have text messages and email between each otherabout this jersey? Why don't you post these to show the history that is beingdisputed? Just take screenshots of any text messages or emails about thisjersey and publish them on the forum. That way you can clear your name.

I would like to see proof that the jersey was sold as game used or pro-cutbetween Ryan and Mark. That will clear a lot up for us. Then I'd love to seethe communication between Ryan and Dan including what the price was charged forthe authentication and signature.

If no one has anything to hide this shouldn't be a big deal to post and at thispoint none of the three parties involved have given any proof they wereinnocent other than excuses and attacks on each other.

I'm still waiting for Dan to take the time to answer the several questions Iposed asking him. Avoiding these questions raises doubt about this item andpossibly others over the years from the history of game used certified items toautographs alleged to be hand signed by Kobe Bryant. Please review each postand advise.”

Y’allhave texted each other or emailed each other to complete these transactions? Ifyou are so innocent – Please post screenshots of these emails to Game UsedUniverse so we can see you are being honest.

Otherwise– There is a lot of industry fraud going on here and we all don’t want that.Dan has some questions that he ignored previously which lead me to believe therumors I have heard about his business practices are true and this is veryscary if it is true to the industry and who they can and can’t trust. Pleasetake the time and answer questions posed to you on the forum otherwise hidingfrom them makes us all wonder if your business and contacts are really what youhave made everyone believe. After this mistake, full disclosure shouldn’t beasking too much if you really are running an honest and fair business.

Peace.

Joel

[trsent]

Sorry - My cutting and pasting sure bunches some words together - not sure why.

[DoctorLoomis]

The heat has been turned up to an all time high......

[sportsnbikes]

I don't collect Lakers anything but I can tell you if I ever do, I know where I WON'T be getting my jersey(s) from.

[Samets]

This thread has it all to make a great book.

I can't wait to see the ending.

[trsent]

The heat has been turned up to an all time high......


This thread has it all to make a great book.

I can't wait to see the ending.

Well, it's about 5PM Central and Mark replied to my email (I had to send it again to another email address as the email I sent it to it was returned undeliverable) and told me he will no longer be posting on Game Used Universe.

Ryan and Dan have ignored the email. If you are a trusted public figure and you are found to make a huge error authentication with a questionable autograph I would think you would take the time to respond to questions from the masses instead of avoiding the thread and my personal email.

These questions will not go away by ignoring them but by ignoring them it makes the situation look more and more as if there was something that is being hid about the whole circle of events.

[Takuleechch]

I don't trust Mark so I'm sure the story goes deeper with him.
The email you posted from Ryan re getting names changed shows he's sketchy and Dan is probably doing some pretty big damage control lol

[jmeekins33]

I don't collect Lakers anything but I can tell you if I ever do, I know where I WON'T be getting my jersey(s) from.

I respectfully disagree.

I've done business with DC Sports before and I've found Dan to be a man with a lot of integrity. A mistake was made but I don't think it goes any deeper than that.

[trsent]

I respectfully disagree.

I've done business with DC Sports before and I've found Dan to be a man with a lot of integrity. A mistake was made but I don't think it goes any deeper than that.

A problem with this hobby is that faith is placed in certain individuals hands and when it is exposed that their operation may not be what they have made the world believe over many years people who had items from such a company then get defensive and make claims defending the authenticator and their practice.

I do not believe this is an isolated case - Dan came on here and stated he just started taking 3rd party items for authentication and when I questioned him about it he ignored the question which was don't you take 3rd party authentications for auction houses so this wouldn't be the first case someone sent him an item that he wrote a letter claiming it came from a secret and special inside Lakers source but really it was a send in from an outside source.

The autograph, which I have asked if Dan has Kobe's cell phone number to call him when someone sends in a jersey that he is able to obtain in less than a 40 day window, has been called out as not being authentic and he doesn't respond to this question.

Dan has ignored my question how much he charged Ryan for the authentication and autograph on the questionable letter as there has been a statement from Mark that Ryan was charged more than the usual $350.00 fee for such a service, about $750-$2000 was his guess. Why would the fee be so much extra and why Dan won't address this question?

Dan knows about this thread. He has posted in this thread. I was told he texted Ryan telling Ryan that he has ruined his reputation. I have emailed Dan and he has ignored it.

Why doesn't he man up and give full disclosure to all questions asked of him to prove this was an isolated incident? Instead he has gone into a shell which doesn't help clear his name. It raises questions about his practices which has me and others very concerned.

[jmeekins33]

A problem with this hobby is that faith is placed incertain individuals hands and when it is exposed that their operation may notbe what they have made the world believe over many years people who had itemsfrom such a company then get defensive and make claims defending theauthenticator and their practice.



I can only comment on my experiences with DC Sports. I have found that Dan looks at outside items with a very skeptical eye. If you want to accuse me of "getting defensive" for sharing my experience then so be it.

[Takuleechch]

A problem with this hobby is that faith is placed in certain individuals hands and when it is exposed that their operation may not be what they have made the world believe over many years people who had items from such a company then get defensive and make claims defending the authenticator and their practice.

That's not really fair cause every auction house makes and continues to make mistakes. Grey flannel, heritage, Goldins it's just how it goes. You support psa and they make mistakes too. It's everyone's right to defend just as much as it is to attack if something's wrong.
I'm looking forward to hearing from Dan and Ryan though

[beachpetrol]

Dan has ignored my question how much he charged Ryan for the authentication and autograph on the questionable letter as there has been a statement from Mark that Ryan was charged more than the usual $350.00 fee for such a service, about $750-$2000 was his guess. Why would the fee be so much extra and why Dan won't address this question?



Joel, I think I know why Dan is not responding to you regarding the authentication fees. Mears, PSA, Meigray and other authenticators have a pricing scale when it comes to high end items.

Here is PSA's pricing scale: http://www.psacard.com/Fees/Autographs#batfees

Here is Mears' pricing scale: http://www.mearsonline.com/index.php?page=evaluation-fees

Here is Meigray's pricing scale: http://www.meigray.com/edealinv/servlet/ExecMacro?nurl=static/Newsroom.vm&ctl_nbr=2381&siId=5536576&scId=6991&page=newsitem&catParentID=$catParentID


Mark mentioned that Dan has a "standard" pricing for authentication/autographs. A potential rookie Kobe Bryant game used jersey is not a "standard" item. This is a high end, potentially high value item that he would have been authenticating. Don't you think Dan has every right to increase his authentication fees, based on other authenticators pricing scales? I'm thinking your witchhunt with regards to his increase in the authentication fees is going to go nowhere.

[Jags Fan Dan]

Joel, I think I know why Dan is not responding to you regarding the authentication fees. Mears, PSA, Meigray and other authenticators have a pricing scale when it comes to high end items.

Here is PSA's pricing scale: http://www.psacard.com/Fees/Autographs#batfees

Here is Mears' pricing scale: http://www.mearsonline.com/index.php?page=evaluation-fees

Here is Meigray's pricing scale: http://www.meigray.com/edealinv/servlet/ExecMacro?nurl=static/Newsroom.vm&ctl_nbr=2381&siId=5536576&scId=6991&page=newsitem&catParentID=$catParentID


Mark mentioned that Dan has a "standard" pricing for authentication/autographs. A potential rookie Kobe Bryant game used jersey is not a "standard" item. This is a high end, potentially high value item that he would have been authenticating. Don't you think Dan has every right to increase his authentication fees, based on other authenticators pricing scales? I'm thinking your witchhunt with regards to his increase in the authentication fees is going to go nowhere.
If he has a similar pricing scale, it could easily be posted here. Seems like a lot of people are waiting to see it, among other things.

[sportscentury]

I can only comment on my experiences with DC Sports.


I'm thinking your witchhunt with regards to his increase in the authentication fees is going to go nowhere.

It is nice to see two brand new members now joining the discussion. Welcome to GUU!

[trsent]

That's not really fair cause every auction house makes and continues to make mistakes. Grey flannel, heritage, Goldins it's just how it goes. You support psa and they make mistakes too. It's everyone's right to defend just as much as it is to attack if something's wrong.
I'm looking forward to hearing from Dan and Ryan though

Yes - 3rd party authenticators will make mistakes but Dan's letters make it appear that each item came from a mysterious inside source with Los Angeles Lakers locker room access. The fact that the autograph on this one item is questionable makes me wonder what is the full story behind this operation and questions have been ignored not answered


Joel, I think I know why Dan is not responding to you regarding the authentication fees. Mears, PSA, Meigray and other authenticators have a pricing scale when it comes to high end items.

Here is PSA's pricing scale: http://www.psacard.com/Fees/Autographs#batfees

Here is Mears' pricing scale: http://www.mearsonline.com/index.php?page=evaluation-fees

Here is Meigray's pricing scale: http://www.meigray.com/edealinv/servlet/ExecMacro?nurl=static/Newsroom.vm&ctl_nbr=2381&siId=5536576&scId=6991&page=newsitem&catParentID=$catParentID


Mark mentioned that Dan has a "standard" pricing for authentication/autographs. A potential rookie Kobe Bryant game used jersey is not a "standard" item. This is a high end, potentially high value item that he would have been authenticating. Don't you think Dan has every right to increase his authentication fees, based on other authenticators pricing scales? I'm thinking your witchhunt with regards to his increase in the authentication fees is going to go nowhere.

Dan is not PSA, MEARS or Meigray and if that is his policy why has he ignored my questions about it? If our hero would like to post on his own behalf it would add to our conversation and help prove his value to the industry. Sitting in a dark room ignoring emails and this thread is a bad sign for someone who has always been here part of our forum.

We have seen the same style letters for D. C. Sports for years stating items came from someone with special access to Los Angeles Lakers players and not we find a horrible example of a jersey that couldn't have come from The Lakers and suddenly we find that 3rd parties have been using Dan for authentication for a long time and he claims he just started writing letters for 3rd parties?

What about all those auction house items? They have been using Dan for years and they all can't be from inside a locker room from Dan's mysterious source? I see a whole big problem for a long time that this one rookie jersey has helped uncover.

Oh yeah, who is signing Kobe's signature also? It is not Kobe Bryant on this rookie jersey in discussion - I'll guarantee you that.

[net0@thehalf]

In my past dealing with Dan at DC sport I have had nothing but professional, knowledgable interactions with him. All items purchased from DC are shipped before he requires payment . Dan allow a 1 week window to look at item, and in my case I photomatch items.. I would say 85% of time I find a match and the other 15% is b/c there isn't a quality pic to match. I will say of the 8 Kobe jerseys I've bought from DC, 100% of those are matched. Your use of the term "our hero" is uncalled for and suggest an aura of an partial jury, when you try to portray yourself as a soldier of transparency and fairness in our great hobby. This post has led me read further onto all members involved via past threads and posts. And judging from your inputs seems others deserve fairness more than some... Depending on your relationship with them. Stop the witch hunt atmosphere and show some impartialness.

[trsent]

In my past dealing with Dan at DC sport I have had nothing but professional, knowledgable interactions with him. All items purchased from DC are shipped before he requires payment . Dan allow a 1 week window to look at item, and in my case I photomatch items.. I would say 85% of time I find a match and the other 15% is b/c there isn't a quality pic to match. I will say of the 8 Kobe jerseys I've bought from DC, 100% of those are matched. Your use of the term "our hero" is uncalled for and suggest an aura of an partial jury, when you try to portray yourself as a soldier of transparency and fairness in our great hobby. This post has led me read further onto all members involved via past threads and posts. And judging from your inputs seems others deserve fairness more than some... Depending on your relationship with them. Stop the witch hunt atmosphere and show some impartialness.

I'm sure Dan has had some amazing authentic items over the years, but after a while when you keep pumping so much stuff into the marketplace with letter that state they all come from a source with access inside a professional sports team and you write letters for 3rd parties stating their items came from this source, it raises questions that Dan should answer instead of going into a shell.

I am impartial - I asked tough questions and Dan has ignored them for the most part but he has three new friends posting defending him today which is fine. All sides should share about their experiences.

I'd really like an explanation about the counterfeit Kobe autograph that was added to Ryan's jersey also - Witch hunt? Dan admits he charged for the autograph - so why isn't it authentic?

Finally, you have eight Kobe jerseys from Dan with his letters and photomatches? Can you post them all to share with us? It is amazing that one collector has eight jerseys himself so I understand why you would defend the authenticator when his practice is questioned instead of looking at the whole big picture that I am trying to get answers for.

The history of discussions on Game Used Universe show when an authenticator or distributor is questioned the first thing everyone does is defend their own inventory piece by piece. This is fine but it doesn't hide the fact that there is questionable activities take have taken place here.

[plinvestments]

I'm sure Dan has had some amazing authentic items over the years, but after a while when you keep pumping so much stuff into the marketplace with letter that state they all come from a source with access inside a professional sports team and you write letters for 3rd parties stating their items came from this source, it raises questions that Dan should answer instead of going into a shell.

I am impartial - I asked tough questions and Dan has ignored them for the most part but he has three new friends posting defending him today which is fine. All sides should share about their experiences.

I'd really like an explanation about the counterfeit Kobe autograph that was added to Ryan's jersey also - Witch hunt? Dan admits he charged for the autograph - so why isn't it authentic?

Finally, you have eight Kobe jerseys from Dan with his letters and photomatches? Can you post them all to share with us? It is amazing that one collector has eight jerseys himself so I understand why you would defend the authenticator when his practice is questioned instead of looking at the whole big picture that I am trying to get answers for.

The history of discussions on Game Used Universe show when an authenticator or distributor is questioned the first thing everyone does is defend their own inventory piece by piece. This is fine but it doesn't hide the fact that there is questionable activities take have taken place here.

Here's what I know and what I can share. Dan does in fact have a locker room source for Lakers items and a lot of items do leak out. If he can get 4 or 5 jerseys each year, that's almost 50 in the marketplace. The jerseys you see at auction could very well all have originated from Dan. For you to assume or suggest that he is authenticating for auction houses and attaching a factually inaccurate letter is unfair. He already answered that question for you - he has only started authentication recently. He was using the same letter for authentication as the one he used for items he sold. It came back to bite him and he is changing the letter format going forward.

In terms of the autograph, I don't know if the one in question is is real or not but I do know that PSA is overly cautious when it comes to Kobe autos as they are with Jordan autos. I remember a previous discussion where Dan mentioned an ongoing spat with PSA over a whole bunch of Kobe autos that they wouldn't authenticate. Remember that PSA never says that an auto is fake (sometimes I wish they would), only that it can't be authenticated.

[Phil316]

Hmm I find it odd all these new members coming out of the wood work to defend a guy who has been caught red handed. Dan should be posting himself not having his buddies defend him.

[jmeekins33]

I'm not a new member. I've been here for years. I got locked out of my old account (JasonM33) a while ago and I was forced to open a new one. Furthermore, nobody asked me to defend them.

We have people in this thread that are not involved piling on and making disparaging comments. I thought it was only fair that someone who has actually done business with DC provide another viewpoint.

[slam]

Here's what I know and what I can share. Dan does in fact have a locker room source for Lakers items and a lot of items do leak out.

Can someone tell me what LEAK OUT means? Does that mean stolen?

[trsent]

Can someone tell me what LEAK OUT means? Does that mean stolen?

Someone mentioned a ball boy to me. Maybe someone should call The Los Angeles Lakers for a statement?

[DConLA]

I just want to reiterate that I made a mistake and I will be refunding Ryan the authentication fee. The fee was a combination for the signature and the letter.

The autograph fee is based on the fact that it is very hard to obtain Kobe signatures and we use multiple sources and the price varies depending upon which source is available at that time. I also want to point out that just because PSA did not authenticate the signature does not mean that it is a counterfeit.

At the time I did the letter for Ryan I used a boiler plate letter and going forward we will make sure to be clearer on the source of any Lakers items that we are asked to authenticate.



DAN 323.257.4898 dceniceros248@yahoo.com

[mickeymbz]

DC,, I can speak that I feel 100% confidence of the game used stuff you have provided for me over 20 years,, many photomatched.. I'm sure many of your customers aren't even followers of this sight... and even if they are they know the knowledge and insight you have and the stuff you get.. nobody can get. I would say 80%. probably higher, game used lakers stuff come from you and you only...over the past 2 decades. Don't worry about the "gotchas" cuz...BYT the "mistake happens" excuse will only get you a pass from them if its only from a specific company.... READ past posts as proof.

[sportsnbikes]

I respectfully disagree.

I've done business with DC Sports before and I've found Dan to be a man with a lot of integrity. A mistake was made but I don't think it goes any deeper than that.

You respectfully disagree about what? You respectfully disagree about where I may or may not buy a jersey from?

[jmeekins33]

You respectfully disagree about what? Yourespectfully disagree about where I may or may not buy a jersey from?

No, I do not disagree with your hypothetical choice not to buy from DC Sports. I would think that most people would be able to understand the point I was trying to make, but let me clarify it for you.

While some people here may not want to do business with DC, I don't have any hesitation in doing so. I've had nothing but good experiences with them in the past and I have seen no evidence that this rookie jersey situation is anything more than a mistake.

The implication with a post like yours is that because of this situation DC Sports is not a trustworthy source for game worn Laker items. While you have every right to that opinion, I don't share it. If you have any further concerns related my post, please send me a pm so that the other members don't have any more of their time wasted.

[JRock75]

Mr. Alpert,

I am new to the forum but not new to the hobby. I have read all of your threads regarding this matter and I appreciate all of the work that you have put into researching game used material, in particular this Kobe jersey. An item of this magnitude need to be traced as much as possible in order to verify its authenticity.

I have had many interactions/transactions with DC Sports and Dan. I also have the luxury of being a nearby resident and am able to conduct transactions with him in person. I can say for 1000% fact that ALL of DC items are legitimate. With that said I think you brought to light something that needs to be altered with Dan's COA's. If this is an item that comes directly from Dan (i.e. "his sources" then he should continue with the Certificate that he issues that states as such.

If, as in the instance of this Kobe jersey, this is an item that is being sent in for Dan to authenticate, his letters should read something to the effect that "in our opinion, we believe that this item is consistent with Lakers authentic game worn material from 20xx-20xx" or something to the effect. I agree with your comments regarding the letter about this Kobe jersey and the wording on the certificate.

As for the jersey being certified as game used, all I can offer to the board is that I have been in the presence of Dan when he has been sent jersey's to authentic from Wilt Chamberlain to Magic Johnson to Kobe Bryant. Even players like Mike Smreck to Mike Penberthy to Robert Sacre and Dan REJECTS items as much as he certifies them. In fact, Dan has tried to post signs or makers to look for on this board in order to help educate the collector on what to look for in order not to get duped. However, as in all ciricles of life, sometimes even the best get one pulled over on them. Case in point, Upper Deck has passed MANY, certified "Cut" signatures on their various cards through the years that did not pass secondary authenication services (i.e. PSA/DNA; JSA; etc.). It happens!! Dan didn't intentionally pass this jersey, all signs, in his estimation, pointed to a real, gamer. After you pointed out the timeline of it (thankfully) he posted a retraction and "decertified" the jersey.

My final comment is to you Mr. Alpert. Again, thank you for your time and diligence in bringing this, and others to light. I appreciate you upholding the integrity of the legitimate item. However, you have now turned this into a "which hunt" against Dan and DC Sports. I don't appreciate the turn this commentary has taken as Dan has been an long standing, certified, member of this forum and the foremost authority on Lakers gear. He's done nothing to help the buyer, colllector and your comments seem like someone who is rather jealous at this point. You caught an error, brought it to light and everyone has learned from it and hopefully corrections will be made to improve the process going forward. STOP WHILE YOU'RE AHEAD AND END THIS!!! DC has been able to provide a wealth of amazing items and knowledge to all of us - let's let him get back to what he does best!!

[trsent]

Mr. Alpert,

I am new to the forum but not new to the hobby. I have read all of your threads regarding this matter and I appreciate all of the work that you have put into researching game used material, in particular this Kobe jersey. An item of this magnitude need to be traced as much as possible in order to verify its authenticity.

I have had many interactions/transactions with DC Sports and Dan. I also have the luxury of being a nearby resident and am able to conduct transactions with him in person. I can say for 1000% fact that ALL of DC items are legitimate. With that said I think you brought to light something that needs to be altered with Dan's COA's. If this is an item that comes directly from Dan (i.e. "his sources" then he should continue with the Certificate that he issues that states as such.

If, as in the instance of this Kobe jersey, this is an item that is being sent in for Dan to authenticate, his letters should read something to the effect that "in our opinion, we believe that this item is consistent with Lakers authentic game worn material from 20xx-20xx" or something to the effect. I agree with your comments regarding the letter about this Kobe jersey and the wording on the certificate.

As for the jersey being certified as game used, all I can offer to the board is that I have been in the presence of Dan when he has been sent jersey's to authentic from Wilt Chamberlain to Magic Johnson to Kobe Bryant. Even players like Mike Smreck to Mike Penberthy to Robert Sacre and Dan REJECTS items as much as he certifies them. In fact, Dan has tried to post signs or makers to look for on this board in order to help educate the collector on what to look for in order not to get duped. However, as in all ciricles of life, sometimes even the best get one pulled over on them. Case in point, Upper Deck has passed MANY, certified "Cut" signatures on their various cards through the years that did not pass secondary authenication services (i.e. PSA/DNA; JSA; etc.). It happens!! Dan didn't intentionally pass this jersey, all signs, in his estimation, pointed to a real, gamer. After you pointed out the timeline of it (thankfully) he posted a retraction and "decertified" the jersey.

My final comment is to you Mr. Alpert. Again, thank you for your time and diligence in bringing this, and others to light. I appreciate you upholding the integrity of the legitimate item. However, you have now turned this into a "which hunt" against Dan and DC Sports. I don't appreciate the turn this commentary has taken as Dan has been an long standing, certified, member of this forum and the foremost authority on Lakers gear. He's done nothing to help the buyer, colllector and your comments seem like someone who is rather jealous at this point. You caught an error, brought it to light and everyone has learned from it and hopefully corrections will be made to improve the process going forward. STOP WHILE YOU'RE AHEAD AND END THIS!!! DC has been able to provide a wealth of amazing items and knowledge to all of us - let's let him get back to what he does best!!

Wow - Everyone who has bought from Dan has come to his defense today. Second fairly new person to use the term "Witch Hunt" today.

Dan has ignored the questions I have asked him, except he has said that it is not Mark or Ryan who are his amazing sources.

I will continue with this project, as this jersey is an example of Dan charging extra to authenticate an item that didn't come from his inside source and him trying to say it is an isolated case is very scary and puts doubt on any previous letters he has written.

He claims he has multiple sources for Kobe autographs, but he has a line of them that have failed authentication from the most trusted autograph authenticators in the business which leads us to believe Dan's source for Kobe autographs may be of the clubhouse variety of Kobe autographs.

Since Dan has sources within the Los Angeles Lakers organization that he tells us about, maybe it's time for someone to contact The Los Angeles Lakers to confirm that he is getting items right from under the team's nose and if they approve of this.

It is always those who have an inventory from an expert or 3rd party authenticator who wish to defend that person for having sources and being the best but I promise you, one day my concerns will be proven correct and I'll stand behind that statement as my time in this hobby doesn't lead me to make such a stink over something without more than just one man's word to have others defend himself instead of him answering the tough questions.

If I'm wrong - Dan should answer the tough questions about the one jersey in question. Ignoring the numerous questions leads us to doubt. He already made the statement that this was the beginning of him authentication 3rd party items which is false as he has written letter for auction houses for years for items they send in to him - Always with the same wording that it came from a mysterious team source.

[plinvestments]

He already made the statement that this was the beginning of him authentication 3rd party items which is false as he has written letter for auction houses for years for items they send in to him - Always with the same wording that it came from a mysterious team source.

How do you know this? Which auction houses have sent items to him? How long have these auction houses used Dan? You've made an accusation. Where is your proof?

[ChrisCavalier]

Joel,

I have been watching the thread and have not made a post here previously because I did not think any rules were violated and I thought it right to let the people involved post to clarify their involvement in the situation. However, I believe the last post you have made has gone over the line. Specifically, the forum rules state:

In instances where a forum member is identifying an item in the hobby they believe to have issues, the poster should clearly state their findings in the form of an opinion and provide adequate rationale for why they believe there is an issue. When possible, we recommend that the poster questioning an item attempt to contact the seller of the item and allow at least 24 hours for the seller to reply before posting. This will prevent postings that may be generated based on misunderstandings of an item. In addition, while this forum is designed to help educate collectors, we will not allow comments that accuse entities in the hobby of participating in any form of criminal wrong-doing. Any posts suggesting criminal wrong-doing should be brought to the attention of the moderators immediately.

Your post stated, "this jersey is an example of Dan charging extra to authenticate an item that didn't come from his inside source and him trying to say it is an isolated case is very scary and puts doubt on any previous letters he has written." In addition, you state, "He claims he has multiple sources for Kobe autographs, but he has a line of them that have failed authentication from the most trusted autograph authenticators in the business which leads us to believe Dan's source for Kobe autographs may be of the clubhouse variety of Kobe autographs."

If I understand correctly, Dan has asserted:

1) The amount he charged was for the authentication and the autograph. He has also stated that he will be refunding the authentication fee because he made a mistake on the authentication. Please let me know if I am reading his post incorrectly. If not, please substantiate your claim that he charged more for the authentication and how that puts doubt into any previous letters he has written; and

2) Dan has claimed his sources have access to Kobe Bryant to get the autographs. I honestly have no idea whether or not that is true. However, before you can implicitly state these autographs are of the "clubhouse variety," please provide some statement from the autograph experts you refer to in making that claim. If that is truly the case, I am sure the authenticators will provide you with some form of statement that the autographs are of the clubhouse variety.

Please note I have no dog in this race but you have asked someone to come on here and answer your questions which I believe he did. If you are going to make any further accusations that imply impropriety please provide the necessary proof other than your opinions that it "leads you to believe...'

Thank you in advance for your compliance with the forum rules.

-Chris

[slam]

I for one appreciate Joel's efforts in getting to the bottom of this. Something doesn't quite add up.

[Phil316]

I for one appreciate Joel's efforts in getting to the bottom of this. Something doesn't quite add up.

I also agree.

[mickeymbz]

Obviously certain individuals love the "soap box".

[trsent]

First off - I received the following facts via email from a fellow forum member correcting me on my "Witch Hunt" comment earlier:

"It's a great post. One thing, though... it is actually THREE new members to pop up TODAY and use the term witch hunt!!! Here they are:

Post 89 by beachpetrol (only 9 posts to his name, member since August 2013): "I'm thinking your witchhunt with regards to his increase in the authentication fees is going to go nowhere."

Post 94 by net0@thehalf (only 3 posts to his name, member since August 2013): "Stop the witch hunt atmosphere and show some impartialness."

Post 105 by JRock75 (only 1 post to his name, member since October 2013): "However, you have now turned this into a "whichhunt" against Dan and DC Sports."

[DConLA]

I have answered your questions and it is obvious that you are an opportunist and are just using this situation to benefit your own personal agenda. Since you seem to be the expert on the amount of auction items that have been sold with my letters let me ask you some questions.

First off how do you know that the items the auction houses are offering were not obtained directly from me? Also how many of the auction items you have seen with my letters come from customers who bought directly from me?

As far as the Lakers signatures I acquire and PSA’s opinion of them, it is just that…their opinion. I have personally obtained over 400 hundred autographs from Kobe since he was a rookie up until around his second championship and in the beginning, PSA would authenticate all my Kobe signatures until they decided to stop, they told me that “we don’t have a problem with the quality it’s the quantity.” They simply don’t believe that I have that kind of access and that is their opinion. I have witnessed PSA authenticate Kobe autographs from dealers in LA that came from the same sources I get my Kobe autos from and they pass their items. but not mine so I have had to deal with this kind of shit since Kobe was a rookie and I am still here. All of my Lakers autographs come directly from the players and my customers know it.



DAN 323.257.4898 dceniceros248@yahoo.com

[trsent]

Joel,

I have been watching the thread and have not made a post here previously because I did not think any rules were violated and I thought it right to let the people involved post to clarify their involvement in the situation. However, I believe the last post you have made has gone over the line. Specifically, the forum rules state:

In instances where a forum member is identifying an item in the hobby they believe to have issues, the poster should clearly state their findings in the form of an opinion and provide adequate rationale for why they believe there is an issue. When possible, we recommend that the poster questioning an item attempt to contact the seller of the item and allow at least 24 hours for the seller to reply before posting. This will prevent postings that may be generated based on misunderstandings of an item. In addition, while this forum is designed to help educate collectors, we will not allow comments that accuse entities in the hobby of participating in any form of criminal wrong-doing. Any posts suggesting criminal wrong-doing should be brought to the attention of the moderators immediately.

Your post stated, "this jersey is an example of Dan charging extra to authenticate an item that didn't come from his inside source and him trying to say it is an isolated case is very scary and puts doubt on any previous letters he has written." In addition, you state, "He claims he has multiple sources for Kobe autographs, but he has a line of them that have failed authentication from the most trusted autograph authenticators in the business which leads us to believe Dan's source for Kobe autographs may be of the clubhouse variety of Kobe autographs."

If I understand correctly, Dan has asserted:

1) The amount he charged was for the authentication and the autograph. He has also stated that he will be refunding the authentication fee because he made a mistake on the authentication. Please let me know if I am reading his post incorrectly. If not, please substantiate your claim that he charged more for the authentication and how that puts doubt into any previous letters he has written; and

2) Dan has claimed his sources have access to Kobe Bryant to get the autographs. I honestly have no idea whether or not that is true. However, before you can implicitly state these autographs are of the "clubhouse variety," please provide some statement from the autograph experts you refer to in making that claim. If that is truly the case, I am sure the authenticators will provide you with some form of statement that the autographs are of the clubhouse variety.

Please note I have no dog in this race but you have asked someone to come on here and answer your questions which I believe he did. If you are going to make any further accusations that imply impropriety please provide the necessary proof other than your opinions that it "leads you to believe...'

Thank you in advance for your compliance with the forum rules.

-Chris

Chris - If you read all the posts in this thread - Mark made it clear that Ryan told him Dan charged him between $750 and $2000 to authenticate this jersey and that Ryan had to send a money order in for payment. I asked Dan how much he charged for the autograph and authentication. He has ignored this question of the exact amount he charged Ryan.

My reasoning for this question is quite obvious - If Dan charged a much higher fee than normal is raises a question of his intentions as I'm sure Dan can spot problems with Los Angeles Lakers jerseys much more clearly than anyone else.

As for the autograph experts - They didn't make the statement about the "clubhouse" vartiety - It was made to me by a hobby expert who has worked for a major auction house that said that JSA has turned down many D. C. Sports Kobe autographs over the years with the theory that the autographs, which Dan would claim came from a ballboy were not in Kobe's pen but of the "clubhouse" variety.

None of the autograph authentication companies will make a statement and you know that first hand that they do not get involved making statements about such matters.

Dan has ignored my questions about auction houses sending him jerseys for letters for years and years which constitutes 3rd party authentications and not jerseys from his inside sources. He clearly states in his all his letters before my discovery: "The above mentioned jersey shows accurate wear and was obtained by an impeccable source inside the NBA who has access to player before, during and after games."

He has ignored the following questions that I previously posted:

1. How much did you charge Ryan for the autograph and letter?

2. Did you personally witness Kobe autograph this jersey?

3. I didn't try to match it up, but I have been told the font on the back of the jersey doesn't match Kobe gamers. You are regarded as the expert - Can you confirm that the lettering font is an exact match to Kobe rookie gamers?

4. If you state it came from an impeccable source, is that source Ryan or Mark? I don't understand how you use that term but don't have a source from within The Los Angeles Lakers organization as another dealer/collector is the source that has access to players before, during and after games? This is very confusing. How many other Kobe jerseys have you written letters for using this expression believing someone telling you it came from an impeccable source?

He partially answered question #4 that Ryan and Mark is not his impeccable source. He has ignored the others.

Also I have also asked:

- You mention you have "contacts" on the team - Do multiple contacts with the Los Angeles Lakers sell you game used equipment? Not just a ball boy, there are several contacts who supply you with numerous Kobe Bryant jerseys every year plus other players jerseys?

- It seems very strange - This is the first time ever you have authenticated an item not from your "contacts" at The Los Angeles Lakers?

- Every other item for sale or privately owned with a D. C. Sports letter was obtained from your network?

- I find that impossible to believe as I have found most major auction houses send game used Lakers jersey for your letters. This can't be from your "network" as they take consignments, right? Please elaborate.

- I can't believe this is the first of all the items you authenticated outside of your "network" and you got caught making a major error? Why don't you also explain what your "network" is.

These are all unanswered questions from previous posts I have made. All cut and pasted highlighted questions.

[mickeymbz]

First off - I received the following facts via email from a fellow forum member correcting me on my "Witch Hunt" comment earlier:

"It's a great post. One thing, though... it is actually THREE new members to pop up TODAY and use the term witch hunt!!! Here they are:

Post 89 by beachpetrol (only 9 posts to his name, member since August 2013): "I'm thinking your witchhunt with regards to his increase in the authentication fees is going to go nowhere."

Post 94 by net0@thehalf (only 3 posts to his name, member since August 2013): "Stop the witch hunt atmosphere and show some impartialness."

Post 105 by JRock75 (only 1 post to his name, member since October 2013): "However, you have now turned this into a "whichhunt" against Dan and DC Sports."

I have hundreds of posts,, aye ,, a WITCH hunt

[trsent]

I have answered your questions and it is obvious that you are an opportunist and are just using this situation to benefit your own personal agenda. Since you seem to be the expert on the amount of auction items that have been sold with my letters let me ask you some questions.

First off how do you know that the items the auction houses are offering were not obtained directly from me? Also how many of the auction items you have seen with my letters come from customers who bought directly from me?

As far as the Lakers signatures I acquire and PSA’s opinion of them, it is just that…their opinion. I have personally obtained over 400 hundred autographs from Kobe since he was a rookie up until around his second championship and in the beginning, PSA would authenticate all my Kobe signatures until they decided to stop, they told me that “we don’t have a problem with the quality it’s the quantity.” They simply don’t believe that I have that kind of access and that is their opinion. I have witnessed PSA authenticate Kobe autographs from dealers in LA that came from the same sources I get my Kobe autos from and they pass their items. but not mine so I have had to deal with this kind of shit since Kobe was a rookie and I am still here. All of my Lakers autographs come directly from the players and my customers know it.



DAN 323.257.4898 dceniceros248@yahoo.com

Dan, you have ignored all the questions in my post above that are highlighted. Let's be honest - I'm not the only one questioning your history but I'm the only one willing to take my time to make a public discussion of it.

I know you have enjoyed a long run but the Kobe rookie from Ryan raises a lot of questions and it is common knowledge from auction house executives past and present I have spoke with that if you do not approve a Los Angeles Lakers game used jersey they can't sell it as the buyers in this industry believe you dictate everything Los Angeles Lakers.

I can back off until later - I am waiting for a reply from someone with an inside interest in my questions and I can wait to hear from them more details.

[mickeymbz]

[quote=trsent;337809]Wow - Everyone who has bought from Dan has come to his defense today. Second fairly new person to use the term "Witch Hunt" today.

So? what's the problem with people being given props to a great product delivered with superior customer service, professionalism and expert knowledge?? He has greatly benefited collectors in this hobby .. what is your agenda with Dan?,, did he do something that you "defined" as "wronged"? ... really what is your personal agenda? instead of ping ponging emails back in forth to him,, pick up the cell and call him,, he has his phone number right there. The dude has stated a mistake has been made,, once again in your own words (in past posts in threads concerning another co.).."mistakes happens".. or is that just a catch phrase you coined so as you can pick and choose whom this applies too?

[Takuleechch]

I think most people acknowledge a mistake was made but would like to know how many ill-worded DC coas are floating around

[trsent]

So? what's the problem with people being given props to a great product delivered with superior customer service, professionalism and expert knowledge?? He has greatly benefited collectors in this hobby .. what is your agenda with Dan?,, did he do something that you "defined" as "wronged"? ... really what is your personal agenda? instead of ping ponging emails back in forth to him,, pick up the cell and call him,, he has his phone number right there. The dude has stated a mistake has been made,, once again in your own words (in past posts in threads concerning another co.).."mistakes happens".. or is that just a catch phrase you coined so as you can pick and choose whom this applies too?

I was thinking - I was the originator of the term "Witch Hunt" on these fine forums many, many years ago. So funny how the tide turns.

[mickeymbz]

lol taking credit for another coined phrase

[abstractheory]

I'd be defensive and panicky too if I owned an expensive jersey with a DC COA.

[KGoldin]

Based on information learned in this thread, Goldin Auctions has decided on its own to pull the following 3 jerseys from its October Legends auction:

Lot #986: Michael Cooper;
Lot #1005: Kobe Bryant;
Lot #1009: Kobe Bryant.

We are pulling them because they had been submitted to DC sports in the past 2 months for evaluation and, after reviewing this thread, we have decided 'boilerplate' and undated LOAs are not acceptable to us.

We are requesting DC Sports re-issue LOAs so they are dated and reflect it is an opinion letter unless obtained directly by them. DC has told me they believe the throwback Kobe jersey was indeed sourced by them, but we will send it back anyway and let them confirm that fact. We are also requesting the jerseys be thoroughly examined a second time prior to any re-issuance of LOA. We would like to see an immediate end to the 'boilerplate' or template LOA of DC sports to a more personalized LOA for the item that is examined.

Please note this is not a knock on DC Sports, but is being done based on the legitimate comment raised in this thread about 'boilerplate' LOAs. It is also of note that in our auctions we have withdrawn lots with certifications from leading authenticators when members of this forum have emailed me concerns or opinions that differ from the authenticators. If my investigation finds the member is correct, I will either edit the description or pull the item as appropriate. Everyone, even the best authenticators, can make a mistake and have something accidently fall thru the crack. The key is fixing that mistake when it occurs and taking steps to prevent a recurrence in the future
Each of the TPAs I have worked with have been very responsive in dealing with any issue in the past and i expect that will continue.
ken@goldinauctions.com (ken@goldinauctions.com)

[Phil316]

We are pulling them because they had been submitted to DC sports in the past 2 months for evaluation and, after reviewing this thread, we have decided 'boilerplate' and undated LOAs are not acceptable to us.

So DC Sports does authenticate for auction houses.

What bafffles me is how can DC Sports say in their LOA that it comes from an "impeccable source" if it is submitted by an auction house on behalf "Joe Shmoe" off the street.

I thank my lucky stars I never invested in Kobe Bryant jersey's as it would leave me scratching my head and pondering where it really came from and if it really is legit.

[sportscentury]

Based on information learned in this thread, Goldin Auctions has decided on its own to pull the following 3 jerseys from its October Legends auction:

Lot #986: Michael Cooper;
Lot #1005: Kobe Bryant;
Lot #1009: Kobe Bryant.

We are pulling them because they had been submitted to DC sports in the past 2 months for evaluation and, after reviewing this thread, we have decided 'boilerplate' and undated LOAs are not acceptable to us.

We are requesting DC Sports re-issue LOAs so they are dated and reflect it is an opinion letter unless obtained directly by them. DC has told me they believe the throwback Kobe jersey was indeed sourced by them, but we will send it back anyway and let them confirm that fact. We are also requesting the jerseys be thoroughly examined a second time prior to any re-issuance of LOA. We would like to see an immediate end to the 'boilerplate' or template LOA of DC sports to a more personalized LOA for the item that is examined.

Please note this is not a knock on DC Sports, but is being done based on the legitimate comment raised in this thread about 'boilerplate' LOAs. It is also of note that in our auctions we have withdrawn lots with certifications from leading authenticators when members of this forum have emailed me concerns or opinions that differ from the authenticators. If my investigation finds the member is correct, I will either edit the description or pull the item as appropriate. Everyone, even the best authenticators, can make a mistake and have something accidently fall thru the crack. The key is fixing that mistake when it occurs and taking steps to prevent a recurrence in the future
Each of the TPAs I have worked with have been very responsive in dealing with any issue in the past and i expect that will continue.
ken@goldinauctions.com (ken@goldinauctions.com)

Kudos to Ken for being thorough and handling things in a professional manner. Not too many auction houses that would take this extra step once the auction is live in order to make sure they get things right.

[ChrisCavalier]

This thread has moved in a direction where people are speculating on matters and without a relevant basis to substantiate their statements. As such, we have deleted a number of posts and are locking the thread. However, if anyone has relevant information for the community they would like to share, please contact us and we will be happy to post the information if it is both germane and substantiated.

Thank You,
Chris