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View Full Version : Winfield bat on EBay



Hoosier39
11-10-2013, 04:53 PM
This bat was just listed and it's a bad one, at least to me anyways. Buyer beware!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dave-David-Winfield-Game-Used-Worn-Bat-New-York-Yankees-/231092516447?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35ce2ff65f

worldchamps
11-10-2013, 05:09 PM
I am the one selling this bat, and I purchased it from forum member Nick Nunnari... So please inform me why this bat is bad?

Hoosier39
11-10-2013, 08:58 PM
Ball marks on it don't look right.

Nnunnari
11-10-2013, 10:36 PM
I bought and sold this bat on ebay several years ago, possibly prior to shipping records being available to the public?
If I recall, the bat was shorter than a typical Winfield gamer, 34" or 34.5".
When I listed the bat, I would've had the bat's dimensions in the description.
I may have originally bought the bat from Mike Schultz, and unfortunately he burned a few of us back in the day. Sorry Worldchamps.

worldchamps
11-12-2013, 12:25 PM
I have removed the bat from eBay.

Previous seller Nick Nunnari, nunnari19 has advised me it was from mike Schultz, and it is a bad bat. He also advised me "I should have done my homework" and that "too many years have passed" for him to accept responsibility.

I would not pass along my mistake on to someone else, and I would have corrected any past wrong doings, unfortunantly we do not all live by this code.

jbsportstuff
11-12-2013, 12:48 PM
I bought and sold this bat on ebay several years ago, possibly prior to shipping records being available to the public?
If I recall, the bat was shorter than a typical Winfield gamer, 34" or 34.5".
When I listed the bat, I would've had the bat's dimensions in the description.
I may have originally bought the bat from Mike Schultz, and unfortunately he burned a few of us back in the day. Sorry Worldchamps.
Sorry worldchamps? For real?? WOW....

Nnunnari
11-12-2013, 12:50 PM
Bill-
Check your mailbox. I forwarded our email chain to you from the time of the purchase back in '08. I clearly explained that the bat did not match Winfield's shipping records. I also offered to refund your money and not ship you the bat. You declined to have the money refunded and wanted the bat shipped to you anyway.
The fact that you would come back to me five years later and expect me to reimburse you is assassin and speaks more towards your character than mine. Please stop harassing me with emails and trying to damage my reputation.

-Nick

worldchamps
11-12-2013, 01:13 PM
I got your email, I'm done communicating with you. You WON, congrats on moving a fake bat out of your collection.

And for the record he did offer a refund after I challenged him on it not being listed in bats records. But he sent me this compelling email, which I bought, oh well less learned..on who not to ever deal with again.

> Bill,
> > I am not sure why this bat is not in records, my
> > thinking is that the bat was ordered early in the
> > 1990 season, possibly spring training and the bat
> > might not have made the record book. It is the
> same
> > legth and weight as other Winfield gamers of this
> > era along with the gwynn finish which he commonly

> > ordered at that time. The bat also displays
> strong
> > Winfield characteristics with the heavy pine tar
> on
> > the lower handle, ball marks on the left side of
> the
> > barrel and the worn in #31 on the knob.
> > I purchased this bat from a bat boy who claimed
> the
> > bat was given directly to him from Winfield in the
> > early '90s.
> > Let me know if you still want me to ship out the
> bat
> > today, I can tell you it's a great looking bat
> that
> > I have no doubt was used by Winfield.
> >
> > Nick

Nnunnari
11-12-2013, 01:39 PM
Like I have previously stated, at the time, prior to my knowledge of Mike Schultz, who he was and what he was all about, I thought this was a legit bat. I was in no way trying to sell you a fake bat and offered to not even send you the bat if you were not comfortable. Unfortunately, a lot of people fell for Schultz' story during that time period, myself included.
For you to imply that I was trying to rip you off is ridiculous.

earlywynnfan
11-12-2013, 08:10 PM
This has led to a very interesting topic for me. What do you Forum members consider a proper "statute of limitations" for something like this?

My 2 cents is that I cannot see myself saying to a buyer "sorry, dude" when something I sold them is shown to be 100% bad.

I actually have in my possession a GU bat that I bought directly from a prominent GUF member that has, you guessed it, a Mike Schultz letter. I've never asked him his thoughts on a refund, even though I often wonder what he'd say.

Ken

Nnunnari
11-12-2013, 10:36 PM
I don't mean to say "sorry dude" and come off as not being empathetic to Bill's situation. The reality is, if you have been collecting bats long enough, odds are you have purchased a questionable bat or two and you have chalked it up to a learning experience and moved on. Just this year, I bought a Ripken and Thomas bat which ended up being promo bats. I didn't even ask for a refund as it was my mistake for not doing my due diligence. I learned from those experiences, sold the bats with honest descriptions and moved on.
I don't believe after giving the buyer every opportunity to back out of the purchase and being contacted five years later for a refund of a low end item, I should be characterized as someone who just said "sorry dude".

cjw
11-12-2013, 11:04 PM
Worldchamps, pls email me when you have a second pls. Chris

Chris@pacmedia.ca

earlywynnfan
11-13-2013, 07:54 AM
I don't mean to say "sorry dude" and come off as not being empathetic to Bill's situation. The reality is, if you have been collecting bats long enough, odds are you have purchased a questionable bat or two and you have chalked it up to a learning experience and moved on. Just this year, I bought a Ripken and Thomas bat which ended up being promo bats. I didn't even ask for a refund as it was my mistake for not doing my due diligence. I learned from those experiences, sold the bats with honest descriptions and moved on.
I don't believe after giving the buyer every opportunity to back out of the purchase and being contacted five years later for a refund of a low end item, I should be characterized as someone who just said "sorry dude".


And that's a completely legit stance. But it's not mine. You did say "Sorry, worldchamps," and I don't think 5 weeks, 5 months, or 5 years matters if we find it's cut-and-dried like this. As I said, I have a Shultz special. I got burned, just like you did. But if I knew I passed crap to someone else, I wouldn't be able to walk away and tell someone it should be their learning experience. I don't view this as "backing out of a purchase;" to me that's similar to buyer's remorse, which I would NOT accept after 5 years (or even 5 months.)

I would rather give the couple hundred back on a "low-end item" than ever write "sorry, bro." "Sorry I screwed you." But again, perhaps I'm off here. That's why I asked the opinions of the forum.

Ken

GoTigers
11-13-2013, 10:18 AM
It is an interesting question. I think as long as the buyer has all the information up front and is not mislead, the responsibility lies with the buyer.

If 5 years from now we find out mlb has been authenticating BP bats as game used am I on the hook for everything I've sold that wasn't photomatched? If so, it's not worth the risk to sell anything.. Ever.

Does this logic work in reverse? If I sold a 1906 Spalding Ty Cobb bat as a store model, and years later evidence arises that he used these in games, does the buyer owe me 10k? Nope

Nnunnari
11-13-2013, 10:44 AM
Good points Jimmy.
The fact that I presented all of the information I knew and believed to be true up front and offered to refund the money at the time of purchase should really close the case.
I agree there should be a reasonable time period to allow for the buyer to change his mind and request a refund, a couple weeks, a month? After a month has passed, in my mind, the buyer has now conceded that they are happy with the purchase and there is no longer any recourse to the seller.

worldchamps
11-13-2013, 12:30 PM
The refund was offered when the fact it was not in the factory records was brought up, which was responded with a compelling argument on that it is a REAL bat, which your comments were "no doubt Winfield used this bat". I trusted you, so that was my mistake.

The mike Schultz aspect is a different concern... It is fake, you know it is fake, it is not an issue of not being documented, it is a FAKE bat and you are not going to do anything about it. That is your decision.

Don't even try to act like you offered to do the right thing on this.

I hope whoever bought your other bats ( Thomas and Ripken) are reading these posts.

GoTigers
11-13-2013, 01:18 PM
I honestly don't see Nick as the bad guy here. You came to the same conclusion as him with all the available information and were comfortable for 5 years.

My question to you is why aren't you going after Mike Shultz on this? He is the one responsible for the alleged fraud. You seem to be more interested in holding nick accountable, but he was a victim too. You know where this bat originated go after the source. I think every member would applaud that decision.

worldchamps
11-13-2013, 01:24 PM
Because I bought it from Nick

i think Nick should make it right, then he would need to contact Mike.

Obviously this is not going to happen.

The bat dies with me... That is the solution that the game used universe community would like to see....as well as forum members not screwing each other over.

worldchamps
11-13-2013, 01:32 PM
You know where this bat originated go after the source. I think every member would applaud that decision.

And I didn't know it came from mike Schultz or that it was fake until 2 days ago, when this post was made. I was trying to sell it only to free up room.

At this point let nick make another response if he chooses to and let's all move on.

Hopefully there is a lesson learned here for all... I learned about.

Hoosier39
11-13-2013, 01:35 PM
I honestly don't see Nick as the bad guy here. You came to the same conclusion as him with all the available information and were comfortable for 5 years.

My question to you is why aren't you going after Mike Shultz on this? He is the one responsible for the alleged fraud. You seem to be more interested in holding nick accountable, but he was a victim too. You know where this bat originated go after the source. I think every member would applaud that decision.

I see your point but I disagree. It's not really up to worldchamp to go after the person that doctored the bat to begin with. He didnt buy it from schultz, he bought it from Nick.

Could you imagine all of us that have obtained bad items and totally skipping the person that sold us these items and went after those that did the doctoring? We'd be on a witch hunt forever.
If I bought a new car from Nissan, and after 3 months the transmission goes
out, you better believe I'm going after the person that sold it to me, the dealer, not Nissan, not yet anyways.

GoTigers
11-13-2013, 01:49 PM
Hoosier, I understand, but I think asking for money back after 5 years isn't going to get very far with anyone.. I meant more along the lines of legal recourse with Mike and trying to clean up the hobby. At least something good would come from a bad situation. I hate it for you worldchamps.. Most of us have been there.

Hoosier39
11-13-2013, 01:59 PM
Hoosier, I understand, but I think asking for money back after 5 years isn't going to get very far with anyone.. I meant more along the lines of legal recourse with Mike and trying to clean up the hobby. At least something good would come from a bad situation. I hate it for you worldchamps.. Most of us have been there.

I think its more of the moral aspect behind it. 5 yrs or 15 yrs, at the end of the day, the bat is still bad. Not really his fault he found this out 2 days ago.

If I sold a bat or jersey, knowing whether it was bad or not, and the buyer came back(5 yrs or 15 yrs) and said that its no good, what do you think I should do? Tell him, sorry, and tell him to leave me alone? I'd feel bad about it.

Remember, reputation is everything.

GoTigers
11-13-2013, 02:43 PM
Agreed rep is everything..but I don't think he's morally obligated to buy it back, that's to say if he did offer a refund it would be going above and beyond the norm.

If he didnt offer a refund years down the line after new info was available, i wouldnt think hes a bad or dishonest seller, as he was clear with all available info.

I think as it stands its just a bad situation.

Jags Fan Dan
11-13-2013, 03:38 PM
Five years ago I traded my car in on a new one. The dealer gave me exactly what I asked for on it. A few days later he called me to ask me if a potential buyer could contact me to ask me a few questions about my experience owning the car, I said fine. He then said "We already fixed the power steering pump." I said "What do you mean?" He explained that they found it was leaking and had to have it replaced. I informed him honestly that I had no idea it was leaking or that anything on the car was not functioning correctly when I traded it in. He never asked me to do anything about it. I never told them not to inspect anything, as far as I knew the car was great. Should I have offered up money to cover the repair? I think it is more "buyer beware" to me. I would feel bad if I had knowingly mislead somebody. The fact that the pump was bad could have been discovered if they had looked the car over prior to accepting it. I feel this vaguely applies to this situation.

Phil316
11-13-2013, 03:46 PM
The only issue I have is according to Bill, Nick made it quite clear it was game used. He even stated it was the same length and weight to Bill. He told Bill he has "no doubt" it was used by Winfield. Nick was so convinced it was used by DW that he should stand by his item. Personally after reading this I now know where Nick stands morally when it comes to ripping off potential buyers and not standing by his product or word.


Bill,
I am not sure why this bat is not in records, my thinking is that the bat was ordered early in the1990 season, possibly spring training and the bat
might not have made the record book. It is the same
egth and weight as other Winfield gamers of this era along with the gwynn finish which he commonly ordered at that time. The bat also displays strong
Winfield characteristics with the heavy pine tar onthe lower handle, ball marks on the left side of the barrel and the worn in #31 on the knob. I purchased this bat from a bat boy who claimedthe bat was given directly to him from Winfield in the early '90s. Let me know if you still want me to ship out thebat today, I can tell you it's a great looking bat that I have no doubt was used by Winfield.

Nick

GoTigers
11-13-2013, 04:02 PM
There is always doubt unless its photomatched.. We should all know that by now.. No matter who you buy from, or what name is on the LOA. Phi313, nick stood by his word and offered a refund which the buyer declined early on. I don't know how you can say he ripped someone off.. Clearly he never had that intention.

Jags Fan Dan
11-13-2013, 04:06 PM
To say Nick ripped somebody off implies he knew the bat was bad when he sold it, which doesn't seem to be the case. That is big to me in evaluating this. It's a bad situation, for sure. I'm just not as sure that the solution is as black and white as we would like.

Phil316
11-13-2013, 04:22 PM
Nick says it was shorter than a DW gamer but when messaging Bill said it was the same length and weight as DW uses. To me that says something.

earlywynnfan
11-13-2013, 04:29 PM
I definitely don't feel it's black or white. I do disagree with those saying "Well, he offered a refund and was turned down." To me, this isn't applicable. The buyer was offered a refund along with the seller's claim that the bat was 100% legit. Now that it's come to light that the bat is 100% NOT legit, the offer of a refund is nowhere to be found. So to me, the refund offer is not part of the equation. Or, perhaps I can word it better like this: when the refund was on the table, and the buyer had all the facts we have now, would he have taken the refund? The buyer turned down the refund based on the facts he was given/knew at the time, which is the bat didn't meet factory records. If the buyer came on here now wanting a refund because of that, I'd say go blow.

I'm not trying to hammer the seller here, nor do I have ANY belief that he ever intended to defraud, just like this is very obviously not a case of buyer's remorse; those words shouldn't be part of this discussion. What I was asking is: does the forum think that the seller should stand behind the item for forever (or at least 5 years) or should he just wash his hands of it?

earlywynnfan
11-13-2013, 04:35 PM
There is always doubt unless its photomatched.. We should all know that by now.. No matter who you buy from, or what name is on the LOA. Phi313, nick stood by his word and offered a refund which the buyer declined early on. I don't know how you can say he ripped someone off.. Clearly he never had that intention.

Just curious, and I am NOT asking this as some sort of attack: Supposed we do a deal, I buy something from you. How long do you stand behind it? Your posts seem to show that you feel 5 years is too long to ask a refund. (And please, I'm not arguing with you!) How long is too long? And again, I'm not saying I changed my mind, I'm saying new evidence has come to light PROVING what you sold me was bad. A month? A year? At what point does the inner conscience fade away?

Ken

emann
11-13-2013, 05:17 PM
Agreed rep is everything..but I don't think he's morally obligated to buy it back

My two cents:

I'd agree overall that the timeline is too long to refund money to a buyer in a "normal situation." I'd say 60 days is reasonable (and probably pushing it)...

But, this isn't a "normal situation" and if his rep in this hobby concerns the seller that issue has now been amplified to some extent because the forum members now know about it—he should offer to refund half the original payment to Worldchamps.

Share part of the hit for moving a fake bat along... We can't be talking any significant amount of money either way. $100 and an olive branch is probably worth it for your rep here, no?

BTW: this forum doesn't need "moderators" it needs "mediators."

GoTigers
11-13-2013, 05:19 PM
Not a problem.. If you've seen my eBay listings, I usually say "if this item fails any reputable 3rd party auth. I'll buy it back". On items I offer that on, there is no time limit. Although I'll probably change that now.. I'll probably give the buyer a year to send it in and return it if it fails. Simply because if I sell a high end bat, and who knows.. I'm broke 5 years from now I won't be able to account for it. It's not lack of confidence, it's an unnecessary risk to have a lifetime guarantee, and 1 year is ample time to have an item inspected.

Items I don't offer that guarantee on.. I would explain the issues with the item, and all sales are final. I would not offer a guarantee on this bat, because I know it would fail based on not matching records.. That doesn't necessarily mean its bad though. In these cases the final decision lies with the buyer.

Nnunnari
11-13-2013, 07:28 PM
Regarding my initial post in this thread, I was going off of a vague, five year memory in thinking the bat was slightly shorter than a typical Winfield gamer. In finding my old email to Bill, I see that it wasn't actually shorter, the bat just wasn't found in his shipping records.

I honestly thought it was a legit Winfield gamer which wasn't in his records, that was my mistake and I am frankly embarrassed by that mistake . Any buyer who knows that this bat was not in his shipping records, is free to draw their own conclusion based upon the use of the bat and player characteristics and judge whether or not they believe the bat was used by the player. If Bill had come back to me a week later after receiving the bat and said "Nick, I'm not confident that this bat was used by DW, please refund my money." Sure, no problem Bill.

Where do you draw the line? It's been 5 years. If I refund the money now, am I leaving myself open to anyone I've sold to in the past coming to me and saying they don't like the bat I sold them?
Nothing I stated was factually false, my personal opinion was wrong about the bat but the facts were correct. The buyer needs to take responsibility for their personal assessment of the item at some point.
Taube made all sorts of mistakes back in this era along with other "experts". If I stated that the length, weight, model of the bat were different then they actually were or that the bat did match shipping records, then absolutely I would refund the money but not when it was an error in the assessment of the use. Unless someone saw this bat in action, there is no concrete, right or wrong answer on whether or not DW used this bat, only opinions.
I have seen countless bats pass 3rd party authentication which I can guarantee were not used by that player, but the bats specs checked out. Then what happens? At the end of the day, it is someone's opinion against another person's opinion. The buyer needs to make their own judgement through research and homework.
I am a big fan of this hobby. Plenty of people know me and what I stand for and how fair I have always been. I know the feeling, it sucks. I'm sorry it happened but I just can't justify this one, not after five years and all that took place at the time of the transaction. Feel free to judge me if you wish.

Roady
11-13-2013, 08:27 PM
Maybe I missed it or maybe it was never posted but how much did Bill buy the bat for from Nick.
I understand it's none of my business. Just curious.

TwinLakesPark
11-14-2013, 09:46 AM
Nothing I stated was factually false, my personal opinion was wrong about the bat but the facts were correct. The buyer needs to take responsibility for their personal assessment of the item at some point.

Well said.