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View Full Version : it's a shame!!!!



lund6771
12-04-2006, 11:14 AM
Hi there!!!...I am a newbie to this site but definitely not a newbie to collecting...I had been collecting since 1987 when uniforms started getting hot...it was fun collecting back then!!!...it seemed like almost 1/2 of the equipment out there at the time was actually the real deal!!!...and if it wasn't it was very easy to distinguish that

just like everything else in this world, once value started dramatically increasing for all game used equipment, it attracted lots of crooks!!!...in 1992 Champion started issuing basketball jerseys in collectable frames that were tagged correctly and that threw a lot of things out of wack...they were quickly sold as game used jerseys..remember when Karl Malone wore "K. Malone" on his jersey but there were lots of "malone" jersey's out there?...Jordans and Pippens with the name to high?...Shaq's eveywhere?...boy did a lot of people get burned on these....I remember going to the National in the summer of 93 and seeing this stuff everywhere!!!...in a differenent thread GREED was the word mentioned, and that hits it right on the head!!!...not only were there "new" dealers/crooks that started selling garbage out there but I believe that 1/2 of the known dealers were selling this stuff with full knowledge of what was going on..."but it was tagged correctly" was the common quote out there and I think that was used as a safety net...

I got out of collecting in 1998 because it was soooo sickening to see what was happening to a HOBBY that was suppossed to be fun...many dealers hit hard times and values plummetted...a lot of people were saying that the market was soft...I don't believe that at all...The true collectors, that dealers needed, left the industry because they were tired of getting screwed over and it just wasn't fun anymore...dealers were selling stuff sooo cheap and most of the time it was to other dealers instead of the collectors

In the mid 90's there were Lakers jerseys everywhere (Tiernan)...you could have boughten a Magic or Kareem for less than $1,000.00 and could have picked up a lot of them...It was amazing to me that the Tiernan tag was absolutely trashed and washed out to where you could barely read the label but the numbers & letters were crisp!!!...very slowly these dried up and they still pop up and go for big money now!!!...Jerry West was another example...West wore the "pinnaple" mesh only 1 year and yet there were tons of them out there..how can that be when players in this era probably only had a few homes and roads each year...Pat Riley..the list goes on

I started collecting again 3 years ago because I still had a desire to put some really cool stuff on the wall...it was a shame to see that not much has changed...Lebron James and Carmelo's everywhere..Roethlesberger, Tom Brady...blah blah blah...The excitement of a new auction approaching has qiuckly faded with seeing the same garbage over and over again...One that always makes me cringe is seeing a Bret Favre throwback jersey every 6 months...Payton everywhere...at least if you do want the real thing out there that possibility does exist, but at a premium...i've wanted a Montana back for a long time but am I really going to buy a Wilson with sewn on letters/numbers?...most definitely NOT!!!!..(I'm holding out for one with a letter from the team like the one in Lelands a few years back)

After the decline in the 90's I feel that a new generation of collectors have come to the hobby that have unfortunately purchased a lot of this garbage out there...Imagine the feeling that your a novice collector and really want a Lebron James jersey...You go and buy one at an auction and think that you have something special only to come to see 500 more sold in the same calender year...suspicions arise, you do some reaserch, and your good feeling goes down the tank because of want you have come to find...another guy out of the hobby who beleives that he got screwed...

when is this going to end?...people NEED to be held accountable for their actions and PUNISHED by the law...if not then this will continue!!!...both dealers and these so called authentiactors...If not by law then at the minimum in a public forum so that people have some opportunity to start collecting on the right foot...I feel bad for the novice that buys this junk and I don't blame them for not doing 100% research...they believe that they are buying from reputable dealers, that have had the items inspected by a professional...if you went to a dealership to buy a vehicle I'm sure that you would believe that you are buying the real thing...what's the difference?!!!!

why keep tip-toeing around this subject...get it in the open and hopefully start to slowly clean this hubby up..this is a fantastic site and I wish that every collector knew about this site before making their first purchase...if that was the case I'm willing to bet that most of junk wouldn't even get one bid...

Thanks and keep up the great work!!!!!

Eric
12-04-2006, 12:00 PM
Thanks for your insight. Interesting to hear how thing have shaped over time in the hobby. Welcome to the forum, and please keep posting your thoughts.
Eric

allstarsplus
12-04-2006, 12:36 PM
when is this going to end?...people NEED to be held accountable for their actions and PUNISHED by the law...if not then this will continue!!!...both dealers and these so called authentiactors...If not by law then at the minimum in a public forum so that people have some opportunity to start collecting on the right foot...I feel bad for the novice that buys this junk and I don't blame them for not doing 100% research...they believe that they are buying from reputable dealers, that have had the items inspected by a professional...if you went to a dealership to buy a vehicle I'm sure that you would believe that you are buying the real thing...what's the difference?!!!!

why keep tip-toeing around this subject...get it in the open and hopefully start to slowly clean this hubby up..this is a fantastic site and I wish that every collector knew about this site before making their first purchase...if that was the case I'm willing to bet that most of junk wouldn't even get one bid...

Thanks and keep up the great work!!!!!I hate to say it, but self-policing doesn't seem to deter anyone in the hobby. We have outed so many people on the Forum and they keep selling their fake cr*p. They don't seem to care. The crooks are making profits and the honest dealers are losing potential profits and more market share to the crooks.

I think it will change when search warrants are issued and arrests made, and until then they will keep pumping the fakes out!

Andrew

jessicawinters
12-04-2006, 01:19 PM
As we struggle to fight all this problem, we must strive to be knowledgeable and reasonable. I DO NOT see how "search warrants and arrests" could be applicable when dealing with the fakes. Is it a crime to take a game issued, roll around your backyard, and call it game used? It's a lie. But is it a crime? Sure they are misrepresenting their products, but people have been lying for ages. Are the misrepresentations a health risk? Are they infringing any copyright laws? Seller says that Superstar B wore this jersey. Does the law care who Superstar B is?? Does the law care about our strict guidelines of a game used jersey?? "Look Officer, these sleeves are incorrect. Arrest him."

I just don't see how it is a crime. I don't see how the law would care. And by saying that it is such an offensive crime, that these people need to be punished and jailed, THAT DOES NOT HELP OUR CAUSE.

allstarsplus
12-04-2006, 01:49 PM
Is it a crime to take a game issued, roll around your backyard, and call it game used? It's a lie. But is it a crime? Yes, it is called fraud. There are probably others that feel like you do.

You pay $1,000 for what the seller describes as a game used Derek Jeter jersey that is nothing more than a $150 authentic and that is akin to stealing $850.

You need to get your copy of Operation Bullpen. People were arrested for forging signatures and some got real jail time.

SUMMARY OF CHARGES AND MAXIMUM PENALTIES

Conspiracy to Defraud the United States in violation of 18 U.S.C. 371. Maximum penalty is five years and/or $250,000 per count.

Tax Evasion in violation of 26 U.S.C. 7201. Maximum penalty is five years and/or $250,000 per count.

Filing False Tax Returns in violation of 26 U.S.C. 7206(1). Maximum penalty is five years and/or $250,000 per count.

Mail Fraud in violation of 18 U.S.C. 1341. Maximum penalty is thirty years and/or $1,000,000 fine per count.

Larceny in the United States in violation of 18 U.S.C.carries a maximum penalty of 20 years in prison and a fine of $250,000 or twice the aggregate loss to the victims or gain to the defendant.

richpick
12-04-2006, 01:52 PM
As we struggle to fight all this problem, we must strive to be knowledgeable and reasonable. I DO NOT see how "search warrants and arrests" could be applicable when dealing with the fakes. Is it a crime to take a game issued, roll around your backyard, and call it game used? It's a lie. But is it a crime? Sure they are misrepresenting their products, but people have been lying for ages. Are the misrepresentations a health risk? Are they infringing any copyright laws? Seller says that Superstar B wore this jersey. Does the law care who Superstar B is?? Does the law care about our strict guidelines of a game used jersey?? "Look Officer, these sleeves are incorrect. Arrest him."

I just don't see how it is a crime. I don't see how the law would care. And by saying that it is such an offensive crime, that these people need to be punished and jailed, THAT DOES NOT HELP OUR CAUSE.
As much as I do not want to agree with you I must, just because we as forum members believe the actions of unscrupulous dealers is horrific I am not sure what the "law" believes. When even authenticaters can not agree 100% on a jerseys authenticity how hard would it be to prove that a dealer knowingly created a fake jersey and then sold it for a profit. There was a post about an AROD game used helmet where there were pictures before the crrok took posession and then after he or she doctored the helmet and then listed it for something that it absolutely was not, this is the kind of solid proof taht is needed to convict these dealers.

My suggestion is for forum members to keep praising the reputable dealers and outing the unscrupulous dealers, knowledge is the key. Knowledge of both the hobby and who is honest in the hobby.

allstarsplus
12-04-2006, 02:05 PM
Do you remember the guy who sold the fake Jeter & Garciaparra bats? 21 months in jail. falsely represented to potential buyers that the Derek Jeter and Nomar Garciaparra baseball bats were authentic, game-used baseball bats;

http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/derungsSent.htm


This is an article from last week. This isn't apples to apples, but 3 people arrested for selling fake Prada and Gucci on eBay. They got them on copyright infringement plus mail fraud and more. 50 criminal counts.

http://news.findlaw.com/andrews/bf/wcc/20061121/20061121_pua.html

allstarsplus
12-04-2006, 02:21 PM
This is a story from last month of the fake Brett Favre's signatures and the arrest from that.

http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=5628014


Armen Keteyian's great story from the Real Sports HBO show they did. This is a must read for anyone that missed the show.

http://www.hofmag.com/content/view/320/30/

lund6771
12-04-2006, 03:12 PM
while reading replies...any item that is sent across state lines will be categorized as mail fraud....bust these people, make public examples of them, have a conference at the National, do something... anything

maybe that will start detering people...i hate to make similarities to the inspicuble, but look at the Dateline show with the predators... is this show making a differenece and detering these predators from contacting kids on the internet?...i sure hope so and as a parent I would love to believe so...

The frauds in our hobby need to be made an example of in the public eye and be held accountable...

indyred
12-04-2006, 04:30 PM
I do wonder why MLB, NFL, NBA don't do more to preserve the history of there game. I know it's not a big money revenue source, but with all the technology today. Why don't they have some special tagging or id system to put on game used jerseys and then have a population report. This would pretty much end all the speculation on what is what. Meigray has a great system, that would not be that hard to do for every team. With how many employees most of these teams have, take a little bit of time and catalog and tag with serial #'s there game used stuff. Teams use this stuff to raise money in auctions and fund raisers.